Log for #openttd on 16th October 2017:
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00:21:02  <Wolf01> 'night
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04:19:01  <supermop_> accidentally made a mail tram that hauls two passenger carriages
04:19:13  <supermop_> might be worth keeping
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05:01:54  <__ln__>
05:56:50  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_: the problem with that is that mail trams cannot load at passenger stops
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07:50:00  <Pixel> Hey, I'm created new thread in OpenTTD section, hope you visit it!
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08:06:57  <peter1139> I've
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08:39:13  <Wolf01> Moin
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09:06:13  <Wolf01> Yay, got the job
09:08:11  <Arveen2> congrats
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09:11:50  <peter1139> Nice.
09:11:58  <peter1139> Can you supersize me?
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09:19:55  <Pixel> Is anyone here&
09:20:04  <Pixel> *?
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09:25:21  <Wolf01> The only weird thing is that they use a VS based ide to make apps which creates the app starting from a database and the interface is html+js, while the code is c# (something like phonegap)
09:26:58  <Wolf01> I tried the evaluation version and: 1) no dark theme for the ide, 2) the apps are wonky
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09:57:10  <Wolf01> eh
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10:30:43  <__ln__> yeah, better to use unencrypted wifi to avoid the vulnerability
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11:17:13  <OpenTTD_Newbie> Hello, I'am looking for some help for map generation. Playing on large map i can't get a nice balance of industries to spawn. Minimal is a bit too little for my taste and very low is way too much. Is there a way to set the amount of industry that spawns? I there a console command to spawn more industry randomly
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11:19:44  <Wolf01> OpenTTD_newbie_: scenario editor
11:21:22  <peter1139> That's a bit too manual...
11:21:51  <Flygon> I wonder if my mistake in OpenTTD is running freight run cycles that tend to run for 4-8 years.
11:21:53  <OpenTTD_newbie_> Can i just spawn an industry in a random location in scenario editor
11:21:56  <peter1139> OpenTTD_newbie_, are you happy with the number of towns?
11:22:04  <Flygon> And then I wonder why I have short-term profitability issues. :V
11:22:14  <OpenTTD_newbie_> Well town is a bit too much also mabye
11:22:35  <peter1139> OpenTTD_newbie_, I ask because adjusting the number of towns also affects the number of industries.
11:22:56  <OpenTTD_newbie_> So fewer town means less industries
11:23:01  <Flygon> (Also I'd love a setting between 'Minimal' and 'Too Low')
11:23:08  <Wolf01> Also disable "more than one industry of the same type per town"
11:23:21  <crem> Maybe it would make sense to reduce number of industries for "low". I had exactaly the same problem, "low" number of industries still felt too much.
11:23:45  <crem> So I ended up playing with "minimal" which is a bit too few.
11:24:45  <OpenTTD_newbie_> Yeah, with FIRS minimal only spawns one of each industry, and on large map it can really screw you over
11:24:52  <crem> It would probably be easy to tweak constants and recompile though.
11:25:06  <Wolf01> Eh, I play in maps where I have only one industry per type in the entire map, I don't think you should go lower than this and I feel it's the right number
11:25:52  <crem> 1 is too few for huge maps.
11:26:06  <crem> And if you set "low" rather than "minimal", it's too many.
11:26:11  <OpenTTD_newbie_> 4kx4k map having only one of each industry is quite hard. Would love if i could set the amount of primary ve secondary/teriary
11:26:25  <Flygon> (Noting in my 2k*2k Iceland game that having it set to 'Very Low' still has industries absolutely EVERYWHERE)
11:26:26  <Wolf01> Spawn fewer towns tith "lower" industries
11:26:31  <Wolf01> *with
11:27:04  <crem> I also doubt anyone ever sets it to nigher than "normal". So that setting feels like it has to be recalibrated.
11:27:10  <OpenTTD_newbie_> i think already have town set to minimal, but it still spans quite a lot of them
11:27:16  <Wolf01> I play 1024x64, very low number of towns and minimal number of industries
11:27:32  <peter1139> Basically 4kx4k is too big, and is just a joke.
11:28:57  <crem> Is number of industries proportional to area of the map?
11:29:11  <crem> I think it should grow slower than linear.
11:30:36  <Wolf01> For example, a 64x64 map with a grf (firs, ecs) is really hard to play, and to generate successfully
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13:26:23  <supermop> Wolf01: 64 with even some water is hard
13:31:15  <supermop> so i don't think the livery upgrade trigger thing works
13:32:06  <supermop> running a couple trams in and out of depot on fast forward last night for about 25 game years/covering 3-4 liveries, and didn't see any change
13:32:31  <supermop> but it is possible i did not use the callback correctly
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14:12:05  <supermop> also some things are really misaligned
14:12:37  <supermop> hmm can you change the template of a sprite without just redefining it as a different sprite?
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14:43:52  <Alberth> o/
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15:05:48  <crem> \o
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16:32:25  <Alberth> o/
16:32:30  <Wolf01> o/
16:32:37  <andythenorth> o/
16:32:45  <andythenorth> @seen frosch123
16:32:46  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: frosch123 was last seen in #openttd 22 hours, 16 minutes, and 19 seconds ago: <frosch123> you convert them to pixels to save space?
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16:36:39  <Wolf01> still not listing a way to quit
16:37:13  <andythenorth> :q ?
16:37:33  <andythenorth> if vim is like emacs
16:37:41  <andythenorth> you probably never want to quit
16:37:52  <andythenorth> I worked with someone who ran their entire computer via emacs
16:37:57  <Wolf01> Eh, but are you on edit mode or command mode?
16:38:07  <Alberth> It's a "master" cheat sheet, they know how to quit the program :)
16:38:11  <andythenorth> I am usually on ‘wtf, how do I leave?’ mode
16:38:20  <andythenorth> I only get into vim by mistake :P
16:38:37  <andythenorth> ‘this is terrifying I hope I don’t break the repo'
16:38:39  <andythenorth> usually
16:38:43  <Alberth> it has some commands I didn't know :)
16:39:03  <Wolf01> I'm used to nano/pico, ctrl+key and the function guide on the bottom of the screen
16:39:14  <Alberth> maybe configure your EDITOR environment variable, andy :)
16:40:00  <Alberth> Wolf01:  escape key, then :q!  and an 'enter'
16:40:00  <andythenorth> such leet skills
16:40:29  <Wolf01> Yeah
16:41:04  <supermop> yo andythenorth
16:41:05  <Alberth> something you once configure in your shell setup and then completely forget, andy :)
16:41:18  <Wolf01> But I was raised with Ms/IBM DOS, so Ctrl+key commands are more familiar to me
16:41:30  * andythenorth should google how to do it
16:41:52  <Wolf01> Also a fuckload of Fn hotkeys
16:42:02  <Wolf01> And ctrl+shift+f12 to save
16:42:19  <Alberth> I specifically picked vim for not having weird key combinations to press
16:42:46  <Alberth> or vi, at the time :p
16:42:54  <Wolf01> Oh, they changed to ctrl+s to save in notepad, finally, open is still ctrl+f123
16:42:56  <Wolf01> *f12
16:43:26  <Wolf01> Isn't :q! a weird combination?
16:43:42  <Alberth> you can type each letter separately
16:43:57  <Wolf01> Yes, ok
16:44:01  <Alberth> instead of pressing several keys at the same time :)
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16:54:15  <Wolf01> Quak
16:55:21  <frosch123> moo
16:55:30  <supermop> yo frosch123
16:56:09  <andythenorth> quak
16:56:16  <andythenorth> like a fricking farm here
16:56:43  <Wolf01> At least we are not furry I hope
16:57:36  <supermop> frosch123:
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16:58:37  <supermop> i dont think the livery updates are working, but i may have messed up the callback
16:59:14  <frosch123> i didn't even know it was no longer called trolleybi
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17:33:03  <andythenorth> so cb36 seems to work to adjust wagon speed by date
17:33:10  <andythenorth> frosch123: ^ any reason I can’t rely on that?
17:35:34  <frosch123> you can't change properties by date
17:35:41  <frosch123> use last_service_date or something
17:36:05  <andythenorth> what fails?
17:36:07  <andythenorth> it works in SP
17:36:24  <andythenorth> I remember your prior warning, so I was surprised :P
17:36:26  <frosch123> vehicles change speed when reloading the game, thus desync
17:36:34  <andythenorth> right
17:36:38  <andythenorth> that is…unwanted :)
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17:37:15  <andythenorth> presumably problem exists even if only checking year ?
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17:37:49  <supermop> frosch123: at some point it felt weird to call it that when only 8 out of hundreds of vehicles are trolleybuses
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17:38:27  <frosch123> andythenorth: write a gs that stops all vehicles in december, and restarts them in january
17:38:45  <andythenorth> last_service_date is fine too
17:39:12  <andythenorth> I thought there were specific triggers for cb 36, but I seem to have imagined that
17:40:14  <supermop> frosch123: i might try to use last service date for liveries and drop the random
17:40:49  <supermop> i ran a tram for 25 years with a depot stop about every 40 days, and saw no livery upgrade
17:44:11  <andythenorth> second problem
17:44:21  <andythenorth> I’m not sure that using cb36 to adjust wagon speeds is good
17:45:25  <andythenorth> also I’d need to check wagonspeedlimits
17:45:31  <andythenorth> and respect player choice
17:45:58  <andythenorth> nor sure that’s possible
17:47:49  <andythenorth> hmm
17:49:24  <andythenorth> what problem am I solving again? o_O
17:51:00  <frosch123> integer train lengths?
17:51:23  <andythenorth> think that’s…different
17:51:33  <andythenorth> I was going to say ‘solved’, but in my test game…blah
17:52:15  <andythenorth> problem is that 6 generations of engine means 6 generations of wagon
17:52:37  <andythenorth> a) fills up buy menu (no reliable way to expire previous gen)
17:52:51  <andythenorth> b) hard to graphically show difference, whilst keeping consistent gestalt and colour scheme
17:54:04  <andythenorth> changing speed with cb 36 solves (b), makes zero difference for (a)
17:54:22  <andythenorth> assuming 3 or 4 generations not 6
17:55:21  <frosch123> why does the number of wagon gens have to match the number of engine generations?
17:58:38  <andythenorth> speed limits
17:59:01  <supermop>
17:59:07  <andythenorth> ‘have’ is a strong word
17:59:36  <andythenorth> more accurate: assuming a set design for freight & pax (faster) engine classes, it’s necessary to limit wagon speeds
17:59:56  <andythenorth> the set design might be flawed
18:00:11  <andythenorth> not too late to change, but seems to work ok in playing
18:01:51  <andythenorth> alternatives to wagon speeds....
18:02:18  <andythenorth> - use wagon attach cb (but I don’t want to prevent player using faster engine on freight, it just won’t go faster)
18:02:45  <andythenorth> - enforce requirement for caboose on freight train, and set speeds only on 6 generations of caboose, all other wagons unlimited
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18:03:18  <andythenorth> - set speed on engine, depending on wagons (check user bits) and/or cargo refit (but requires complicated buy menu text)
18:03:57  <andythenorth> - set wagon speeds on cb36, changing when new engines are introduced, and have fewer generations
18:04:11  <andythenorth> - or just use wagon speeds and 6 generations (current implementation)
18:04:13  <andythenorth> [end]
18:06:42  <Wolf01> Shit, turned my head to send 4 messages on telegram, back here monologue wall
18:08:02  <andythenorth> such
18:08:39  <Wolf01> <andythenorth> speed limits <- bullshit? I would like more a train which recover speed fast than one that can travel at light speed and you need 4 engines to pull 25 wagons
18:09:03  <andythenorth> dunno that the game models that :)
18:10:34  <Wolf01> My trains usually can't reach even the wagon speed limit... slow engines or didn't think enough about the power
18:11:30  <andythenorth> do you have freight weight 1?
18:11:32  <andythenorth> or higher?
18:11:58  <Wolf01> I think something like 5
18:12:09  * andythenorth uses 1
18:12:18  <Wolf01> But I think I set it lower, 2 or 3
18:12:59  * andythenorth tries 5 in test game
18:13:02  <andythenorth> quite brutal :P
18:13:22  <andythenorth> such realistic
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18:14:34  <Alberth> more steam engines!
18:15:29  <andythenorth> feedback sought
18:15:40  <andythenorth> I like it ok, but I don’t love it
18:15:46  <andythenorth> and that probably means it sucks :P
18:18:41  <frosch123> supermop: that won't work
18:25:22  <andythenorth> so you all play with wagon speed limits off? o_O
18:25:24  <supermop> :(
18:26:29  <frosch123> supermop: the graphics selection only checks the built_year, never the random bits
18:26:35  <Wolf01> No, I play with them on, but I play also with track speed limits and weight multiplier
18:26:53  <supermop> huh
18:26:56  <frosch123> also, using "random_trigger:" in "graphics" voids all guarantees
18:27:26  <supermop> can i omit it?
18:27:28  <Wolf01> Aahah
18:27:47  <frosch123> supermop: i may not know what you try to achieve
18:28:08  <frosch123> andythenorth: probably depends on the set, but wagon speed limits used to restrict engine choice, so removed gameplay
18:28:20  <supermop> uh just that sometimes a tram with livery A get repainted to new livery B
18:28:31  <supermop> but b never gets A
18:29:13  <supermop> i think i follow the long chain of random switches you wrote
18:29:32  <supermop> but i dont really understand where the tram should enter that chain
18:30:02  <frosch123> supermop: remove "random trigger", and replace all references of "switch_se2_style" with "maybe_se2_B"
18:30:15  <supermop> ok
18:30:32  <frosch123> well, there is only one reference, in line 71
18:30:46  <supermop> do i need the switch_se2_... at all?
18:30:58  <supermop> the livery by build year
18:31:07  <frosch123> switch_se2_style is not needed
18:31:14  <supermop> the random switches will handle it at all
18:31:17  <supermop> ?
18:32:21  <frosch123> i think so
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18:33:53  <andythenorth> how about build trains like trams?
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18:34:00  <andythenorth> integral unit, engine + fixed carriages?
18:34:05  <andythenorth> shorter buy menu overall :P
18:35:34  <supermop> andythenorth: my tram menu is much longer
18:35:57  <supermop> you will get combinatorial explosion
18:36:15  <supermop> instead of one deltic
18:37:23  <supermop> you get deltic with 8 carriages, deltic with 10 carriages, ... deltic with 8 mail carriages, deltic with one mail and 7 passenger...
18:37:52  <supermop> then all of the above for every type of engine
18:38:08  <andythenorth> no no
18:38:12  <andythenorth> they’re all just 2 tiles :P
18:38:39  <andythenorth> TL 2 always
18:41:10  <Wolf01> <andythenorth> how about build trains like trams? <- supermop, what I was saying some days ago?
18:43:50  <andythenorth> so many dimensions to trains :P
18:45:10  <Wolf01> We had this exact discussion
18:45:29  <Wolf01> With the usual "if andy..."
18:47:43  <supermop> andythenorth: i wish i could build trams and trucks like trains, would shorten my buy menu a lot
18:48:18  <frosch123> why is length of purchase list still an issue?
18:48:23  <frosch123> we have "hide engines"
18:48:53  <andythenorth> searching time?
18:48:56  <andythenorth> fair point though
18:49:24  <andythenorth> issue is findability, not length per se
18:49:28  * andythenorth will screenshot
18:50:00  <Wolf01> Could we have a purchase list like a tree view (like refit list)? And decide to group by cargo or by generation?
18:50:24  <frosch123> you can filter by cargo
18:50:32  <frosch123> quite annoying to use though
18:50:56  <frosch123> why would you build an older generation?
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18:51:14  <Wolf01> Money?
18:52:15  <andythenorth> by mistake?
18:52:18  <andythenorth> mis-clicking?
18:52:21  <andythenorth> usability failure?
18:52:45  <andythenorth>
18:52:47  <frosch123> anyway, if finability is an issue, add icons
18:53:07  <Wolf01> With my play style a vehicle which run 50km/h, with 20t capacity, and 00 running cost is preferable to a vehicle which go 56km/h 22t 00
18:53:40  <frosch123> livestock car should be a refit option fo rhte box car
18:53:57  <frosch123> i can hardly distinguish open car and hopper car, no idea what a dump car is
18:54:17  <frosch123> tank, silo and edibles should also be refit
18:54:40  <frosch123> wtf is fruit&vegetables car?
18:54:50  <frosch123> is it refridgerated or box car?
18:54:53  <andythenorth> neither
18:54:58  <andythenorth> it’s fruit & vegetables car :)
18:55:15  <andythenorth> aim is lots of wagons
18:55:21  <frosch123> so you won? :p
18:55:25  <andythenorth> I was winnig
18:55:43  <andythenorth> then I had to extend past 1990
18:55:49  <andythenorth> started losing :P
18:56:23  <andythenorth> it’s all just too much :P
18:57:05  <Wolf01> After 90 is just intermodal with refits and a lot of cargo sprites
18:58:22  <supermop> frosch123: my problem is that you might have 1 type of truck/cab but 10 types of body or trailer for it
18:59:07  <Wolf01> Change the whole graphic along with the selected refit?
18:59:27  <andythenorth> supermop: I tried that in Hog
18:59:30  <andythenorth> it’s nonsense
18:59:44  <andythenorth> original game got it right, lots of body types
19:00:06  <andythenorth> truck part is almost irrelevant, body style + cargo sprites are the interesting bit in game
19:00:22  <andythenorth> ~most sets get this wrong :D :x
19:00:35  <andythenorth> NUTS got closest, but in a very V453000 way
19:01:07  <supermop> andythenorth: lost of body types is fine, but would be nice if you could buy the trailers separately
19:01:17  <andythenorth> nah, it comes to the same
19:01:31  <andythenorth> I have been into that rabbit warren :)
19:01:47  <supermop> get a new tractor every few years but can still use the same old flatbed
19:02:17  <supermop> road train with 3 or 4 trailers? buy whatever you want
19:02:32  <supermop> mix different type of trailers while at it
19:03:47  <supermop> if i have a circa 1990 diesel truck, trolley truck, and dual mode truck, i could have 3 tractors and 9 trailers, instead of 27 trucks
19:03:58  <Wolf01> nice
19:05:14  <andythenorth> when the change is visually more substantial…the generations work well
19:25:49  <andythenorth> current preference: generations add more capacity, speed limit is magic
19:25:54  <andythenorth> but which magic? o_O
19:26:00  <andythenorth> slaved to engine ID (possible)
19:26:17  <andythenorth> slaved to last_service_date (possible, but I have servicing disabled)
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19:28:52  <frosch123> engine purchase date?
19:29:33  <andythenorth> interesting idea
19:29:43  <andythenorth> engine can only be purchased in depot, right? o_O
19:30:04  * andythenorth wonders about buying engines in stations :P
19:30:30  <frosch123> assuming you only buy new wagons together with new engines, it saves a lot of clikcs
19:31:13  <andythenorth> basically I want to try ‘autoreplace engine, wagons get faster'
19:31:27  <andythenorth> there are probably multiple ways to implement
19:40:49  <Alberth> wagons have no limit, engine does
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20:36:53  <andythenorth> maybe just 4 wagon generations
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