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I got problem w/ YAPF 09:55:28 <Borg> http://ds-1.ovh.uu3.net/~borg/tmp/yapf_train_goes_to_red.png 09:55:48 <Borg> why that bitch goes to red.. even when she have green signal on right 09:56:49 <peter1138> So, er, which signal? 09:57:36 <Wolf01> Use the 2 way signals to let trains make decisions with presignals 09:59:01 <peter1138> Do you mean the presignal block leading to the two stopped trains? It's because the right lane has an extra signal at the end which increases the penalty. 09:59:04 <Borg> peter1138: the upper train that goes down... 09:59:18 <Borg> there are 2 exit signals and presignal 09:59:50 <Borg> peter1138: yeah... 10:00:04 <Borg> peter1138: but its green.. so no penalty 10:00:12 <Borg> wait.. 10:00:14 <Borg> it is red ;D 10:00:36 <Borg> lets count penalties 10:00:50 <Borg> straigth patch: 500+400=900 10:00:53 <peter1138> Green still has a penalty. 10:01:04 <Borg> no its red.. 100% sure 10:01:20 <peter1138> Yes because of the other route. 10:01:20 <Borg> also... firstred counts too? then +1000 10:01:29 <Borg> so.. straight patch should have 1900 at least 10:01:38 <Borg> no.. lets count right lane... 10:01:41 <Borg> (train perspective) 10:01:46 <Borg> first is green.. 10:01:53 <Borg> so... 400+300 = 700 10:01:53 <peter1138> Just use path signals everywhere and stop with the old school rubbish :p 10:02:05 <Borg> so obvious path for me.... 10:02:17 <Borg> peter1138: pfft... I use PBS a lot :) but sometimes its suboptimal 10:02:34 <Borg> I tried to red YAPF code.. but.. its damn complicated C++ stuff 10:02:47 <Wolf01> PBS is suboptimal when you put 1 signal every 2 tiles 10:03:19 <Borg> Wolf01: nah.. its slow sometimes.. and also not making right decisions in certain cases.. its ok.. thats why we have presignals 10:04:10 <Borg> yapf.rail_firstred_penalty = 1000 10:04:18 <Borg> yapf.rail_look_ahead_max_signals = 5 10:04:19 <Borg> yapf.rail_look_ahead_signal_p0 = 500 10:04:19 <Borg> yapf.rail_look_ahead_signal_p1 = -100 10:04:19 <Borg> yapf.rail_look_ahead_signal_p2 = 0 10:04:25 *** chomwitt has joined #openttd 10:04:28 <Borg> but with those settings.. it should go to the right lane dammit 10:04:37 <Borg> first is green.. 10:04:51 <Wolf01> The entry presignal should be a DOUBLE WAY SIGNAL 10:05:05 <Borg> Wolf01: only if you have twoway_eol=true 10:05:35 <Borg> or.. twoway signals are calculated differently? 10:06:56 <Wolf01> I think twoway_eol is for handling terminus stations 10:07:02 <Wolf01> You don't have an eol there 10:07:13 <Borg> I dont see any special stuff for twoway signals in YAPF 10:07:25 <Borg> only twoway_eol and depots 10:07:35 <Wolf01> Because it's from the core game, not YAPF 10:07:55 <Wolf01> Two way = make decision 10:08:33 <Borg> Wolf01: arent u confusing openttdcoop SRN ? 10:08:34 <Wolf01> It was chosen a lot of time ago, in TTDP when presignals were added 10:08:56 <Borg> okey.. lets switch them to two way 10:08:58 <Borg> to see if u are right 10:10:27 *** cosmobird has quit IRC 10:10:48 <Borg> lol 10:10:50 <Borg> u are right... 10:10:51 *** cosmobird has joined #openttd 10:10:57 <Borg> thats crap :( 10:11:12 <Wolf01> Nah, that's just RTFM 10:11:29 <Borg> oneway twoway should not make difference 10:11:38 *** RafiX has joined #openttd 10:11:56 <Borg> lets see if PBS will do better 10:12:56 *** RafiX has quit IRC 10:13:02 <Wolf01> Just don't place PBS after junction, that's not a safe waiting point 10:13:13 *** RafiX has joined #openttd 10:13:27 <Borg> of course :) 10:13:37 <Wolf01> Better safe than sorry 10:14:33 <Borg> okey PBS will do better 10:19:00 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know why coop-people insist on twoway_eol, when firstred_exit is equally as powerful 10:19:09 *** synchris has joined #openttd 10:19:21 <Borg> Eddi|zuHause: yeah.. I dont use twoway_eol... 10:19:45 <Eddi|zuHause> well, i only use path signals anyway 10:19:51 <Borg> hmm 10:20:05 <Borg> I use path + block 10:20:12 <Eddi|zuHause> but i don't build that kind of junction 10:20:19 <Borg> and sometimes presignals where station have low traffic and I dont want to have loop on it 10:20:39 <Borg> but I wonder if I should convert it to PBS 10:20:55 <Wolf01> I only build plain junctions, flyovers only if the terrain forces me :P 10:21:17 <Borg> Wolf01: well... I have high traffic on that lane 10:21:27 <Borg> play junction would be suboptimal.. 10:21:32 <Borg> wanna see it? its on server.... 10:21:37 <Wolf01> I usually have 2-6 trains per line, so... 10:21:44 <Borg> currently, Im scared to use PBS signals... 10:21:49 <Borg> I use oneway PBS 10:21:57 <Wolf01> And they usually wait at stations 10:22:53 <Eddi|zuHause> Borg: PBS are totally easy: every place you would put an exit signal, you remove the signal, every entry signal becomes a one-way path signal 10:23:24 <Borg> Eddi|zuHause: I know.. 10:23:27 <Borg> I use PBS a lot... 10:23:35 <Borg> the only problem I have is PBS vs OneWay PBS :> 10:23:39 <Eddi|zuHause> just make sure that every entry into the junction is through a path signal, never a block signal 10:23:48 <Borg> my networks are mostly oneway... 10:24:05 <Eddi|zuHause> you need twoway path signal only at terminus stations 10:24:17 *** Biolunar has joined #openttd 10:25:55 <Borg> I miss more fine grained Signal Selection via CTRL 10:26:23 <Borg> hmm lets see 10:26:27 <Wolf01> There's a setting for that, you can decide which kind of signals to cycle 10:26:56 <Borg> yeah 10:27:06 <Borg> okey.. found acceptable setting.. 10:27:12 <Borg> build path.. cycle thro all 10:27:20 <Borg> just to clicks.. if I will not use pre signals anymore 10:27:59 <Borg> so :D redesign time... 10:28:03 <Borg> pre signals are no more! ;) 10:28:40 <Wolf01> Pre signals are still useful, but not as they were before PBS 10:28:42 <Borg> extra setting would be cool tho 10:28:51 <Borg> cycle via: block + path (no presignals) 10:29:03 <Borg> yeah.. before PBS they were must :) 10:30:06 <Eddi|zuHause> i had so many problems with presignals, because i always stumbled into the cases where they were not enough 10:31:45 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, i don't use the ctrl-cycling, i use the signal gui to select the signal 10:31:57 <Borg> its too slow.. for me 10:32:04 <Borg> I prefer to click fast few times 10:32:06 <Eddi|zuHause> and also i put path signals everywhere 10:32:16 <Eddi|zuHause> no plain block signals 10:32:18 <Borg> Eddi|zuHause: even on one way line ? 10:32:20 <Borg> geez.. waste 10:32:28 <Borg> I use PBS only on junctions 10:32:35 <Borg> on lanes.. I put simple block one way signal 10:32:48 <Borg> every 6 tiles 10:32:53 <Eddi|zuHause> that just bites you in the ass if you add a junction to an existing line and forget to convert a signal 10:33:29 <Borg> how u can forget to convert? :) 10:34:06 <Eddi|zuHause> every mistake that can happen will happen 10:34:46 <Borg> oh.. the only mistakes I made. when rebuilding busy intersection.. 10:34:53 <Borg> and sometimes I remove signal.. and BOOM 10:34:54 <Borg> ;) 10:34:57 <Borg> rary.. but happen 10:35:25 <Eddi|zuHause> that's why i always build while paused. easier to catch these kinds of mistakes 10:35:36 <Borg> geez... 10:35:44 <Borg> I play multiplayer only 10:35:44 <Borg> :) 10:35:48 <Borg> ok.. mostly :D 10:36:18 <Borg> argh 10:36:23 <Borg> current setting is not optimal 10:36:29 <Borg> too much clicking when building lane.. 10:36:38 <Borg> it needs extra setting 10:37:12 <Borg> All, All but pre-signals, Path signals, block signals, 10:37:17 <Eddi|zuHause> make a patch 10:37:24 <Borg> yeah. I will.. 10:39:12 *** RafiX has quit IRC 10:39:54 <Borg> first I need to setup compilation platform.. wont be easy 10:40:55 <Borg> hmmm 10:41:00 <Borg> I noticed that stations have signals... 10:41:04 <Borg> at least it looks like 10:41:32 <Wolf01> Sort of, but don't rely on it 10:42:03 <Borg> well.. if they will work basicaly on station with reserving 10:42:07 <Borg> reversing I mean 10:42:16 <Borg> its fine.. I use them only on low traffic.. 10:42:16 *** Smedles_ has quit IRC 10:42:37 <Borg> then I dont need a patch :) because I will not use twoway PBS 10:42:41 *** Smedles has joined #openttd 10:42:59 <Wolf01> I make terminus stations without any signal if I lack of space 10:43:35 <Borg> wow 10:43:39 <Borg> they behave a bit like PBS 10:43:45 <Borg> or block? 10:43:48 <Borg> dunno.. but it worked 10:43:54 <Borg> I had 2 trains w/o signals in block 10:44:00 <Borg> except entrance PBS 10:44:09 <Borg> and they went in.. one went out 10:44:15 <Borg> dammit! :) no need to PBS on them 10:44:21 <Borg> thats great 10:44:43 <Borg> im back to my old settings 10:44:51 <Borg> place One way PBS, cycle thro block signals only 10:45:05 <Borg> since I will use only one way PBS or one way block signals. not much clicking! 10:45:25 <Borg> redesign time ;D 10:46:37 <Eddi|zuHause> it's not the station that has a signal 10:46:48 <Eddi|zuHause> it's that a reversing train has a signal 10:47:38 <Borg> ahh.. 10:47:50 <Borg> Eddi|zuHause: simple block signal? 10:48:41 <Eddi|zuHause> no. if a train reverses, and there is a path signal nearby, it will try to reserve a path. if it cannot reserve the path, it will wait (instead of just going) 10:48:57 <Borg> ahh.. ok 10:49:09 <Borg> kewl 10:49:11 *** RafiX has joined #openttd 10:57:48 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd 11:06:44 *** Eddi|zuHause has quit IRC 11:08:47 *** Eddi|zuHause has joined #openttd 11:11:57 *** techmagus has joined #openttd 11:29:03 *** Thedarkb has quit IRC 11:30:50 *** andythenorth_ has joined #openttd 11:36:43 *** andythenorth_ has quit IRC 12:03:42 *** none has quit IRC 12:04:09 *** none has joined #openttd 12:06:49 *** supermop has quit IRC 12:10:47 *** Eddi|zuHause has quit IRC 12:11:24 <Wolf01> Yay, mashinky got presignals 12:13:36 *** Eddi|zuHause has joined #openttd 12:16:51 *** cosmobird_ has joined #openttd 12:16:51 *** cosmobird has quit IRC 12:18:16 *** supermop has joined #openttd 12:18:26 *** Eddi|zuHause has quit IRC 12:22:11 *** Eddi|zuHause has joined #openttd 12:25:29 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 12:29:53 <_dp_> nice try mashinky 12:39:19 *** Eddi|zuHause has quit IRC 12:40:10 *** FLHerne has joined #openttd 12:41:16 *** Eddi|zuHause has joined #openttd 12:49:48 *** Thedarkb-X40 has joined #openttd 12:50:39 <Thedarkb-X40> Why does OpenTTD still depend on libicu52? 12:51:17 <Wolf01> Because nobody still had time to get rid of it 12:52:50 <Thedarkb-X40> I'll try building it from the source. 12:55:43 <Thedarkb-X40> It's not finding a video driver. 13:06:23 *** Thedarkb-X40 has quit IRC 13:18:37 *** sim-al2 has joined #openttd 13:26:52 *** Samu has joined #openttd 13:27:28 *** cosmobird_ has quit IRC 13:27:50 *** cosmobird_ has joined #openttd 13:43:58 *** cosmobird_ has quit IRC 13:44:20 *** cosmobird_ has joined #openttd 13:47:36 *** andythenorth has left #openttd 13:52:38 *** frosch123 has joined #openttd 13:52:48 *** ToBeFree has joined #openttd 13:56:26 <Samu> hi 13:56:38 <Samu> 4 AI's remaining 13:57:26 *** Gja has joined #openttd 13:58:19 *** cosmobird__ has joined #openttd 13:59:04 *** cosmobird_ has quit IRC 14:21:16 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27961 /trunk (bin/baseset/openttd.grf media/extra_grf/openttdgui.png) (2018-01-07 15:21:09 +0100 ) 14:21:17 <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#6654]: The switch-toolbar icon contained pixels from the fire cycle. Replace the whole icon with a new version. (PaulC) 14:28:22 *** TigerbotHesh has joined #openttd 14:29:48 *** iSoSyS has joined #openttd 14:40:34 *** Stimrol has joined #openttd 14:42:05 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 14:42:09 *** TigerbotHesh has joined #openttd 14:43:49 *** Flygon_ has quit IRC 14:55:36 *** nicfer has joined #openttd 14:55:41 <nicfer> Hi 14:57:02 <nicfer> Is this channel open for newgrf questions? 14:58:17 <frosch123> this channel is for everything 14:58:48 <frosch123> including lego, factorio and other stuff 14:59:18 <__ln__> also linear algebra, poetry, signal processing 15:02:40 <Borg> ;) 15:15:01 <nicfer> I'm trying to make a GRF that changes primary industries to increase production when supplied with cargo (passengers in my case) 15:16:08 <frosch123> check out yeti, manpower industries and possibly firs 15:16:14 <frosch123> they are all doing similar things 15:28:17 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 15:29:42 *** sim-al2 has quit IRC 15:47:08 *** ToBeFree has quit IRC 16:04:53 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 16:04:58 <andythenorth> dunno 16:05:33 <andythenorth> what if it's the general case 16:05:37 <andythenorth> that's wrong? 16:06:45 *** Thedarkb has joined #openttd 16:06:56 <andythenorth> Eddi argues that NRT failed because it doesn't consider the general case 16:07:09 <andythenorth> but the general case can't be reconciled 16:17:42 <andythenorth> catenary MUST be split road / tram 16:17:52 <andythenorth> catenary MUST be unified road / tram 16:18:08 <frosch123> catenary MUST be purely visual 16:18:30 <andythenorth> player MUST be able to build over town road 16:18:43 <andythenorth> player MUST NOT be able to build over town road 16:18:52 <andythenorth> general case is nonsense 16:19:03 <frosch123> since when are there players? 16:19:11 <andythenorth> well AIs then 16:19:21 <andythenorth> AI / player /s 16:19:45 <andythenorth> I would be inclined to say just ship it 16:19:47 <andythenorth> what we have 16:19:55 <andythenorth> except for the weird compatibility junk 16:21:25 <andythenorth> done > perfect 16:22:08 *** Thedarkb has quit IRC 16:23:51 <supermop> andythenorth in general, yes 16:24:13 <supermop> nrt probably works good enough as is 16:25:03 <andythenorth> but it's not done 16:25:27 <andythenorth> and it can't be done 16:25:40 <supermop> openttd wasn't done but they let me download it back in the 0.7.x times 16:36:56 <andythenorth> yeah 16:37:34 <andythenorth> but only the signals, pathfinder, newgrf, timetables and vehicle physics were actually broken then 16:37:40 <andythenorth> not much 16:38:56 <andythenorth> frosch123: how about we ship, catenary is trams only? 16:39:04 <andythenorth> problems eliminated 16:39:12 <supermop> T_T 16:44:51 <andythenorth> why is catenary a thing? 16:44:55 <andythenorth> isn't it just decoration? 16:50:40 <andythenorth> decoration cb 16:50:44 <andythenorth> no catenary 16:51:01 <andythenorth> vehicle compatibility is 1:1 determined by type 16:51:07 <andythenorth> road and tram are orthogonal 16:51:21 <andythenorth> any type that wants to show catenary draws it as decoration 16:51:35 <andythenorth> decoration cb cycles through sprites for both sides of road 16:51:47 <andythenorth> frosch123: ^^^ 16:51:47 <andythenorth> ? 17:05:25 *** Snail_ has joined #openttd 17:09:04 <andythenorth> hi Snail_ 17:10:13 <Snail_> hi andythenorth 17:11:49 <Snail_> I like your attempt to improve Extreme economy, just please try not to introduce any new cargoes (at least for now) ;) 17:13:48 <andythenorth> I am drawing ships and trains for next [n] months 17:16:30 <Snail_> nice 17:17:13 <Samu> nerf trains 17:17:56 <andythenorth> I don't need to transport any nerfs 17:18:13 <andythenorth> NERF is not a FIRS cargo 17:18:16 <andythenorth> ...yet 17:18:24 <andythenorth> biab 17:18:26 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 17:39:58 *** iSoSyS has quit IRC 17:45:42 <Wolf01> What if we just solve the problem visually and keep whatever catenary exists in tiles? 17:46:52 <Wolf01> It's grf author problem to show if there is trolleybus catenary or tram catenary 17:47:11 <Wolf01> supermop: you already solved this, no? 17:55:29 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 17:57:49 <andythenorth> Snail_: if you stick around, I'll put the classes in FIRS docs 17:58:10 <Snail_> andythenorth: sounds great! :) 17:59:54 <Eddi|zuHause> i think one of the problems is that it's trying to build upon the distinction between "road" and "tram", which is clerly insufficiant 18:00:04 <Eddi|zuHause> there's road (with various surfaces) 18:00:11 <Eddi|zuHause> there's road decoration 18:00:18 <Eddi|zuHause> there's trolley catenary 18:00:22 <Eddi|zuHause> there's tram rails 18:00:27 <Eddi|zuHause> there's tram catenary 18:00:31 <Eddi|zuHause> there's tram 3rd rail 18:00:50 <Eddi|zuHause> each of them has different restrictions with which it is compatible 18:02:07 <Eddi|zuHause> like trolley catenary can only be built along roads, where tram rails can be laid without road 18:02:42 <Eddi|zuHause> tram catenary can only be built along trams, but most of the time it should be treated as one unit with the tram rails 18:03:07 <Eddi|zuHause> trolley catenary should be removable from town roads, so it needs its separate owner 18:03:26 <Eddi|zuHause> 3rd rail cannot be built along roads, only crossings allowed 18:04:09 <Eddi|zuHause> there should be tram rails that are not allowed along roads, but have different speed limit 18:09:45 <Snail_> andythenorth: what year will Vehicle Bodies be available from? 18:10:08 *** Cubey has joined #openttd 18:10:44 <andythenorth> any 18:10:56 <Snail_> ok... 18:11:02 <andythenorth> I am very against date-restricted cargos and industries 18:11:09 <andythenorth> I would have removed them, but too much complaining :P 18:13:39 *** Thedarkb has joined #openttd 18:16:37 <Thedarkb> I'm trying to build openttd from the source and it's looking for a graphics driver. 18:17:06 <Eddi|zuHause> which OS? 18:17:28 <Snail_> got it ;) 18:17:47 <Snail_> andythenorth: shouldn’t Assembly Plants also supply Farm Supplies? 18:17:51 <Snail_> think tractors... 18:17:51 <Thedarkb> Debian. 18:17:57 <Thedarkb> Kind of. 18:18:02 <Thedarkb> Lubuntu. 18:18:13 <LordAro> Thedarkb: what's the error message? 18:18:24 <Thedarkb> I did something weird and now it's reporting as both... 18:18:49 <Thedarkb> Anyway, it says the driver isn't found and that I need to run configure with a --dedicated flag. 18:18:56 <Thedarkb> But I don't want to run a dedicated server. 18:19:00 <Eddi|zuHause> Thedarkb: you're probably missing SDL (1) development files 18:19:06 <LordAro> sounds like you're mis- ^ 18:19:21 <LordAro> Thedarkb: `apt-get build-dep openttd` will install all necessary deps on debian 18:19:32 <Thedarkb> Will do. 18:19:39 <Thedarkb> Some libs are deprecated though 18:19:49 <LordAro> define "deprecated" 18:20:06 <LordAro> i.e., please quote the error/warning messages 18:20:37 <Thedarkb> I'll come back when I'm on the machine I'm trying to build it on. 18:20:39 <LordAro> (into a pastebin of some sort if >3 lines) 18:23:08 <andythenorth> Snail_: think 'how many output cargos?' o_O 18:23:25 <andythenorth> also FMSP are not demanded much in Steeltown 18:25:01 <Snail_> oh… max is 2? 18:25:22 <andythenorth> yup 18:25:26 <andythenorth> also http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/code_reference.html#cargos 18:25:37 <andythenorth> I have no idea why some of the classes are set 18:25:38 <andythenorth> but eh 18:25:58 <supermop> eddi: how do you see tram 3rd rail as different than just a type of catenary or type of track? 18:26:16 <andythenorth> who's ever going to set 'hazardous' ? 18:26:19 <andythenorth> and why / how 18:27:48 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i think it's a remnant from this "OpenTTD+500" "project", the only part which sounded reasonable enough that anybody might actually use it 18:28:14 <andythenorth> 'covered' I think has been used, as an exclude on open vehicles 18:28:31 <andythenorth> but what, I have to provide 'hazardous cargos' truck? 18:28:42 <andythenorth> it makes no sense even as an exclude 18:28:52 <andythenorth> maybe it's for CB36 novelties instead 18:29:04 <andythenorth> I could nerf horse with realism 18:29:12 <andythenorth> 'hazardous cargos must have 2 brake vans' 18:29:30 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe hazardous materials cannot be driven through towns (with NRT) :p 18:29:40 <Snail_> great :) thanks, Andy 18:30:01 <Snail_> btw why did you have to introduce the new METL cargo label? 18:30:08 <Snail_> in my set, I’m treating it exactly like STEL... 18:30:27 <andythenorth> because STEL isn't METL 18:30:31 <andythenorth> they're different 18:30:37 <Snail_> couldn’y you have kept STEL and just renamed it in Extreme economy? 18:31:42 <andythenorth> yes, but I didn't 18:32:39 <andythenorth> keeps vehicle set authors entertained 18:32:45 <Snail_> :p 18:35:16 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: maybe you can get away with merging them into the track type, but it seemed different enough that i listed it separately 18:35:16 <Thedarkb> Over here, hazardous cargo needs one brake van but two buffer wagons at either end in case of a collision. 18:38:37 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: surely it's just the track type? 18:38:41 <andythenorth> and arbitrary graphics? 18:38:47 <andythenorth> we don't have these concepts in railtypes 18:38:58 <andythenorth> seems NRT is extensively complex :P 18:39:34 <Snail_> I’d love to separate rails and electrification systems... 18:39:48 <Snail_> that would open many possibilities 18:39:54 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the complexity comes from the fact that a road tile can have multiple owners 18:40:23 <Eddi|zuHause> which is not a problem that railtypes faced, so they could take the lazy path there 18:40:40 <Eddi|zuHause> clearly you cannot get away with that for roadtypes 18:44:14 <Eddi|zuHause> you could reduce that to 4 not-entirely-orthogonal types: road (none, dirt, cobble, asphalt), decoration (grass, pavement, trees, lamps), rail (none, tram, fast tram) and electrification (none, trolley catenary, tram catenary, 3rd rail) 18:44:35 <Eddi|zuHause> which would "solve" the catenary problem by only allowing one catenary on each roadbit 18:44:49 <andythenorth> why is multiple owners relevant? 18:44:51 <Eddi|zuHause> so trolley and tram catenary can only cross each other, not go along 18:45:01 <andythenorth> none of the problems that killed NRT are due to multiple owners 18:45:36 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: so i imagined there being a problem with trolley catenary not being removable from town roads? 18:45:57 <andythenorth> actually I adjust my comment 18:46:02 <andythenorth> given that Town is an owner 18:46:10 <andythenorth> towns don't own rail 18:46:25 <andythenorth> that is basically the issue that makes NRT failed 18:46:31 <andythenorth> and that will apply to any spec 18:46:42 <Samu> 3 AIs remaining 18:46:45 <andythenorth> so fundamentally, this isn't possible 18:47:42 <andythenorth> assuming no infra-sharing 18:47:54 <andythenorth> modifying tiles owned by someone else just isn't possible in OpenTTD 18:48:03 <andythenorth> and towns own roads 18:48:12 <andythenorth> so any attempt at roadtypes can never work 18:48:19 <andythenorth> maybe we just do tramtypes? Wolf01 18:49:00 <Wolf01> I would do roadtypes more, you might just need 3 trams 18:49:41 <andythenorth> roadtypes aren't possible :) 18:49:43 <andythenorth> ever 18:49:58 <andythenorth> because of towns 18:50:19 <Wolf01> With a well crafted grf it might work, we need to solve the problem of changing town roads (without upgrade or downgrade shit) 18:50:56 <andythenorth> that's not possible in current OpenTTD 18:51:07 <Eddi|zuHause> i would define "upgrade" as "must be compatible with ROAD", and then hope that grf authors don't do silly stuff with changing ROAD 18:51:08 <andythenorth> no player may modify another player's infastructure 18:51:27 <andythenorth> it's a fundamental tenet of the game 18:51:43 <Wolf01> With the exception of town owned roads, you can blow them up 18:51:43 <Samu> diagonal roads? 18:52:09 <Eddi|zuHause> so you can convert "cobble road with trolley catenary" to "asphalt road without catenary" 18:52:19 <Eddi|zuHause> but not to haul road 18:52:27 <Samu> if you will rework roads, create diagonal for them :p 18:53:15 <andythenorth> so I convert the road, now I own it? 18:53:19 <Wolf01> What if old_roadtype & new_roadtype = old_roadtype? 18:53:52 <Wolf01> (speaking about flags and compatibility) 18:53:54 <Eddi|zuHause> possibly you can add that the speed limit should not be lower than before 18:54:20 <Eddi|zuHause> (i think that's already the case for bridges) 18:54:27 <Wolf01> Nah, that won't break compatibility, you should be able to change the speed limit as you want 18:55:45 <Wolf01> Samu: not the right topic, we are discussing about NRT (which is a 1.5 years old feature, so you should already know what it does) 18:57:45 <Wolf01> Also, andythenorth, if you convert a town road you should take ownership, who comes first wins 18:58:20 <andythenorth> that's an exploit 18:58:43 <Wolf01> That's what you already do when you are placing one way roads 18:58:44 <Eddi|zuHause> but then the reverse should be true, if town upgrades the road during its expansion loop (assuming that will be a feature), it should reclaim ownership of the road 18:58:48 <andythenorth> currently removing road is only possible for certain cases 18:58:52 <Eddi|zuHause> (or the roadside decoration) 18:58:56 *** nicfer has quit IRC 18:58:57 *** XeryusTC has quit IRC 18:58:57 *** V453000 has quit IRC 18:58:57 *** Terkhen has quit IRC 18:58:57 *** SmatZ has quit IRC 18:58:57 *** Hirundo has quit IRC 18:58:57 *** planetmaker has quit IRC 18:58:57 *** Osai has quit IRC 18:58:57 *** fonsinchen has quit IRC 18:58:57 *** avdg has quit IRC 18:58:57 *** ^Spike^ has quit IRC 18:58:57 *** Hazzard has quit IRC 18:58:57 *** Ammler has quit IRC 18:58:57 *** Yexo has quit IRC 18:58:57 *** tneo has quit IRC 19:08:56 *** Webster has joined #openttd 19:09:07 <Eddi|zuHause> that's how it works already, except that "owner town" uses all 5 bits from the owner 19:09:17 *** Yexo has joined #openttd 19:09:17 *** avdg has joined #openttd 19:09:31 <Eddi|zuHause> if you split it 4+1, you can store the same thing plus extra owner in the same 5 bits 19:09:35 *** planetmaker has joined #openttd 19:09:35 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o planetmaker 19:09:45 <Wolf01> Yes 19:09:47 *** tneo has joined #openttd 19:09:54 <Samu> what about owner_none 19:10:09 <Eddi|zuHause> 15 companies plus "owner none" = 4 bits 19:10:17 *** V453000 has joined #openttd 19:10:25 <Samu> oh, right 19:10:32 *** XeryusTC has joined #openttd 19:10:34 <Eddi|zuHause> you can modify a town road if owner is yourself or none, and the town allows it 19:10:47 *** Ammler has joined #openttd 19:11:17 *** fonsinchen has joined #openttd 19:11:47 *** ^Spike^ has joined #openttd 19:11:47 *** Osai has joined #openttd 19:16:51 <andythenorth> so what would happen? 19:17:00 <andythenorth> I build roadtype NERF over town ROAD 19:17:08 <andythenorth> what conditions permit that? 19:17:17 <andythenorth> who can overbuild it? 19:17:20 <andythenorth> who can remove it? 19:17:23 <andythenorth> who can use it? 19:17:27 <andythenorth> who can build stations on it? 19:17:45 <andythenorth> is it eligible for roadworks? 19:18:43 <Samu> 1 AI remaining, but 32 years away :( 19:18:53 *** xat has joined #openttd 19:18:54 <Eddi|zuHause> conditions: owner must be none or you, new roadtype must be compatible with ROAD, you must have town rating 19:19:30 <xat> hoy 19:19:30 <Eddi|zuHause> later overbuilding: since you are now the owner, nobody else (except town) may overbuild it 19:19:30 <xat> is there a way to show a map in a gmaps style web site ? ;d 19:19:30 <Eddi|zuHause> remove it: same 19:19:30 <Eddi|zuHause> use: everyone 19:19:34 <Eddi|zuHause> station: everyone 19:19:46 <Eddi|zuHause> roadworks: yes 19:20:27 <Eddi|zuHause> xat: there was "pngtile" ages ago, that could produce a scrollable map from a giant screenshot 19:24:16 *** ccfreak2k has quit IRC 19:24:16 *** ccfreak2k has joined #openttd 19:24:16 <xat> yeah i remember that 19:25:10 <xat> i don't remember but i had maybe a problem with the screenshot size ;o for like 2048² map 19:25:10 <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds likely :p 19:26:28 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 2048**2*64*32/1024**3 19:26:28 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 8 19:26:28 <Eddi|zuHause> needs 8GB of RAM for uncompressed 8bpp data 19:27:09 <Eddi|zuHause> most programs will have trouble with that, as they cannot process partial images 19:27:16 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: so I can't own a town? Because it has to be compatible with ROAD? 19:28:15 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: anything that isn't compatible with ROAD must be built on an empty tile, cannot overbuild an existing road 19:35:00 <andythenorth> I'm going to discount griefing 19:35:00 <andythenorth> it's not interesting 19:35:00 <andythenorth> so what's left to solve? 19:35:55 <Eddi|zuHause> tram vs trolley catenary 19:35:55 <Eddi|zuHause> decoration 19:35:55 <Eddi|zuHause> (catenary is not decoration) 19:35:55 *** cosmobird__ has quit IRC 19:35:55 <Eddi|zuHause> especially crossing tram and trolley lines 19:36:05 <andythenorth> catenary is just per type 19:36:13 <andythenorth> there is too much confusion about this 19:36:19 <andythenorth> compatibility is from the label 19:37:07 <andythenorth> and whatever the type chooses to draw as catenary, or not, is what is drawn, or not 19:37:07 <andythenorth> there is some mythical implied 'electrified' property, which needs discounting 19:37:07 <andythenorth> it's a dead end 19:37:53 <andythenorth> if I want to draw christmas lights on ROAD by abusing catenary, that's up to me 19:37:53 <andythenorth> it doesn't electrify TRAM on the same tile 19:38:01 <andythenorth> I am going opposite to frosch123's spec on this :) 19:38:18 <Eddi|zuHause> that's a valid opinion, but it doesn't resolve the drawing conflict 19:38:21 <andythenorth> no 19:39:26 <andythenorth> authors will just have to draw carefully 19:39:26 <Eddi|zuHause> keep in mind that the road author might be different from the tram author 19:39:26 <andythenorth> yes, but that's a poor choice 19:39:26 <andythenorth> can't help players who have no taste 19:39:26 <andythenorth> we don't prevent e.g. 32bpp EZ 19:39:26 <andythenorth> even though it looks awful 19:40:16 <Eddi|zuHause> even then, you still need to provide the grf author with enough tools to handle the situation 19:40:30 <Eddi|zuHause> in a deterministic way 19:40:32 <andythenorth> if it's a cb, they're covered 19:40:42 <andythenorth> it's it just sprite numbers, dunno 19:41:48 <Eddi|zuHause> a sprite number solution would be preferable speed-wise, i think 19:41:49 <andythenorth> probably 19:41:49 <andythenorth> frosch proposed a cb for one global catenary https://wiki.openttd.org/Frosch/ButGroundTypes#Global_catenary 19:41:50 <Eddi|zuHause> same reason why railtypes did not get any useful variables 19:41:50 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that didn't quite convince me 19:42:04 <andythenorth> I'm not convinced by shared global catenary 19:42:11 <andythenorth> cb performance I can't comment 19:43:23 <andythenorth> Wolf01: if we do NRT right, BGT isn't blocked at all 19:52:52 *** Thedarkb-X40 has joined #openttd 19:59:55 *** glx has joined #openttd 19:59:55 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v glx 20:01:12 <Wolf01> andythenorth, yep 20:01:58 <Wolf01> The problem is to avoid to block BGT by fixing some features which shouldn't be fixed 20:08:56 <Wormnest> Samu: New version of NoNoCAB available in case you want to test more ;) 20:13:30 *** Borg has quit IRC 20:24:47 <Samu> ok, will test 20:31:13 *** RafiX has quit IRC 20:42:14 *** none has quit IRC 20:43:33 *** none has joined #openttd 20:43:45 *** Eddi|zuHause has quit IRC 20:43:48 *** Eddi|zuHause2 has joined #openttd 20:46:17 *** Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause 20:47:49 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 20:48:59 *** nicfer has joined #openttd 20:49:07 <nicfer> Hi again 20:50:03 <nicfer> What's the difference between EXTRACTIVE and ORGANIC industries life_time values? 20:50:54 <nicfer> Does that define the "Forests produce slower" behaviour? 20:53:19 <Eddi|zuHause> possibly also the mine collapse disaster 20:53:23 <Eddi|zuHause> not sure 21:02:08 <frosch123> https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action0/Industries#Industry_production_type_.280B.29 <- nicfer: it's described there 21:04:35 <nicfer> Well, I was checking the NML part of that grf wiki 21:04:53 <frosch123> they are not always in sync :) 21:04:56 <nicfer> Guess it's not as complete as the newgrf one 21:09:48 <nicfer> Hmmm, that page is also undescriptive 21:11:07 <nicfer> Just the "effect on nearby stations", and nothing about the difference between extractive and organic 21:13:38 <frosch123> it's the only differene 21:16:46 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC 21:19:59 *** synchris has quit IRC 21:30:28 *** innocenat has quit IRC 21:30:47 *** innocenat has joined #openttd 21:36:45 *** glx has quit IRC 21:37:07 *** glx has joined #openttd 21:40:26 *** glx_ has joined #openttd 21:40:26 *** glx is now known as Guest1370 21:40:26 *** glx_ is now known as glx 21:41:05 <supermop> eddi, do you forsee many situations where tram owner is different than tram wires owner? 21:42:25 *** crem1 has joined #openttd 21:42:53 *** crem has quit IRC 21:46:53 *** Thedarkb-X40 has quit IRC 21:47:32 *** sim-al2 has joined #openttd 21:47:43 *** Guest1370 has quit IRC 21:49:01 *** none has quit IRC 21:50:44 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: if someone builds a horsetram and someone else electrifies the (now shared) line? 21:51:50 *** Eddi|zuHause has quit IRC 22:17:13 *** none has joined #openttd 22:17:34 *** frosch123 has quit IRC 22:19:20 <Samu> Wormnest: just started testing NoNoCAB v5 22:19:45 <Wormnest> cool 22:21:52 <Samu> aww TracAI crashed 22:21:57 <Samu> cpu evaluator crap 22:22:02 <Samu> he was doing really well :( 22:22:33 <Samu> so i'm only testing 1 ai 22:26:12 <Wormnest> It´s sad that TracAI´s author disappeared right after releasing the first version. 22:26:29 <Wormnest> There´s probably not much hope for fixes 22:35:02 <Samu> he was really strong with aircraft 22:35:23 <Samu> not that great with train routes though 22:35:44 <Wormnest> No wonder the air part is based on my WormAI :p 22:35:58 <Samu> considering there was infrastructure maintenance costs enabled 22:36:03 <Samu> oh i see :p 22:40:08 *** Thedarkb has quit IRC 22:40:28 <Samu> vehicletype 1, vehicletype 0....´ 22:40:52 <Samu> 0 is trains? 22:40:55 <Samu> 1 is ? 22:49:16 <Wormnest> I think road 22:50:15 <Wormnest> Yes, rail 0, road 1, water 2, air 3 22:51:33 *** Thedarkb has joined #openttd 22:53:16 *** Biolunar has quit IRC 22:57:08 *** nicfer has quit IRC 22:57:46 <Wolf01> 'night 22:57:49 *** Wolf01 has quit IRC 23:00:54 *** Wormnest has quit IRC 23:13:20 *** Gja has quit IRC 23:13:37 *** Eddi|zuHause has joined #openttd 23:14:37 *** Eddi|zuHause has joined #openttd 23:20:25 *** chomwitt has quit IRC 23:37:00 *** Stimrol has quit IRC 23:38:16 *** Progman has quit IRC 23:51:33 *** FLHerne has quit IRC 23:55:29 *** tokai|noir has joined #openttd 23:55:29 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai|noir