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Log for #openttd on 28th January 2018:
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03:35:13  <circ-user-SYCS0> @logs
03:35:13  <DorpsGek> circ-user-SYCS0: https://webster.openttdcoop.org/index.php?channel=openttd
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07:45:24  <Alberth> o/
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08:10:49  <andythenorth> moin
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08:26:16  <Alberth> hi hi
08:30:54  <andythenorth> moin Alberth
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10:04:31  <Wolf01> Moin
10:06:18  <Alberth> moin
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10:08:18  <Wolf01> Mmmh, test play on stellaris taught me something, now it's time to do a serious play
10:09:01  <Wolf01> Also, I need to download 1 scenario for TANE, which will take about 15 days at 10kbps :P
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10:11:03  <Wolf01> Damn missing dependencies, it should warn you about it before you start downloading 900MB of stuff at 10kbps :(
10:14:02  <Alberth> quite
10:14:52  <Alberth> looks like a game that sells very well, so it's likely good :)
10:15:26  <Wolf01> It only list "available for download" or "builtin" or "already installed"... when you download them "oops, this dependency misses some other dependencies"... wtf? I already listed all the deps recursively, whi didn't you warned me?
10:15:49  <Wolf01> *why
10:17:19  <Alberth> don't know either :(
10:18:14  <Wolf01> Oh wow, it's downloading at 14.8kbps! :D
10:18:44  <Eddi|zuHause> that's like 50% more
10:18:45  <Alberth> saves a week :p
10:19:53  <Wolf01> Spoke too early, dropping fast, like 0.05kbps at second, it's at 13.2kbps now :(
10:21:16  <Wolf01> And I don't know how to activate the first class ticket of 30 days I should have, because my account doesn't even list the game even if I'm logged in with it in the game
10:22:03  <Eddi|zuHause> you have strange problems
10:22:33  <Wolf01> With TS2012 I just added the serial key to the account on the site, but this key is not compatible because it's a steam only key
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12:14:56  <andythenorth> lo Wolf01
12:15:06  <Wolf01> o/
12:15:22  <andythenorth> I tried to figure out how compatible_railtypes works
12:15:27  <andythenorth> but it's bit shift magic :P
12:15:52  <andythenorth> I have NFI, I can only assume it ORs a bunch of bits or something
12:15:59  <andythenorth> to get the available types
12:17:44  <Wolf01> The problem with NRT is that you have 2 types on the same tile which also need to be compatible with each other, like if you have a tram on tile and you want to upgrade to a road which doesn't allow tram then you must check it too
12:18:16  <Wolf01> There are really a lot of checks added than railtypes
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12:22:23  <andythenorth> do we allow road to forbid tram? o_O
12:22:46  <Wolf01> Why not?
12:22:53  <andythenorth> complicated?
12:23:03  <Wolf01> It's a flag
12:23:37  <andythenorth> ok
12:23:37  <Wolf01> Like forbid level crossings, not suitable for houses, forbid intersections...
12:23:49  <andythenorth> so it's not actually a problem for roads with OWNER_TOWN?
12:25:21  <Wolf01> At least if you won't specify a road buildable by towns which forbids trams...
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12:30:27  <Samu> hi
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12:38:30  <andythenorth> hmm
12:38:41  <andythenorth> I am wondering if NRT is just a bad idea
12:38:56  <andythenorth> the town stuff is pretty much unsolvable
12:39:49  <Wolf01> Nah
12:40:05  <andythenorth> it's total griefing
12:40:08  <andythenorth> all day, every day
12:40:22  <andythenorth> I just block you from every town by building a ring of incompatible roads
12:40:35  <andythenorth> I can just load a newgrf with a ridiculous low speed limit and ruin your game
12:40:37  <Wolf01> Put a bridge
12:40:58  <andythenorth> I just convert all town roads
12:41:09  <Wolf01> You have plenty of ways to grief players
12:41:16  <Wolf01> Not only with roads
12:41:35  <Samu> rip NRT?
12:41:54  <andythenorth> RIP any roadtypes ever
12:41:57  <Wolf01> If you don't want griefing then don't load grf which are too much toward it
12:42:01  <andythenorth> it's shared infra, and shared infra doesn't work
12:42:12  <andythenorth> I don't understand why we don't ban trams too
12:42:19  <andythenorth> I can just build trams in your town, and stop them
12:42:34  <andythenorth> flood town, shared orders, stop all
12:43:17  <andythenorth> also industries that overbuild town buildings should be banned
12:43:35  <andythenorth> I can just make a newgrf with £0 cost for an industry that overbuilds town
12:43:41  <andythenorth> then replace all your houses with it
12:43:52  <Wolf01> Slept bad tonight?
12:44:13  <andythenorth> losing in tank game a lot :P
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13:09:35  <andythenorth> Wolf01: how about we only consider my use case, ignore all others, profit? :)
13:09:55  <Samu> is there a Company Value game script on banana ?
13:10:06  <Wolf01> And your use case was?
13:10:36  <Samu> i find it odd that i can't find any, when there's plenty of servers using it
13:11:10  <andythenorth> if I made a grf, I would only do ROAD, ELRD, HAUL, ELHL
13:11:18  <andythenorth> and HAUL isn't compatible with ROAD
13:11:24  <andythenorth> so no griefing
13:11:43  <andythenorth> if we can forbid 'downgrade' of ELRD to ROAD
13:11:46  <andythenorth> we win all prizes
13:12:05  <andythenorth> ship, glory, fireworks
13:14:04  <Wolf01> I already need to forbid downgrade el->normal, on city roads, on your roads you do what you want
13:14:23  <Samu> ST2: are you awake?
13:15:33  <Samu> I am looking for a game script where the goal is to be the first company to reach XXX company value
13:15:58  <Samu> akin to what happens in most multiplayer servers
13:23:34  <Eddi|zuHause> i think you're overthinking this
13:24:08  <Eddi|zuHause> town will only care about the road, not the electrification
13:31:36  <andythenorth> ??
13:34:03  <Samu> i can't edit #opcodes in the scenario editor? any valid reason for that?
13:34:28  <Samu> was trying to load a savegame in the editor to change this value :(
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13:48:18  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: what am I missing?
13:48:42  <andythenorth> o_O
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13:51:14  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that it's fairly useless to build in special rules for "cannot downgrade ELRD to ROAD"
13:51:52  <Eddi|zuHause> griefers gonna grief either way (like trying to remove the road altogether), and players are going to be annoyed because they can't build how they like
13:53:11  <Eddi|zuHause> so town restriction should only be that there are houses allowed next to the road
13:53:27  <andythenorth> can we quote that?
13:53:30  <andythenorth> then it's done
13:53:43  <andythenorth> I see no solution to the griefers
13:53:53  <andythenorth> we could write 5k lines of code, and still no solution
13:54:36  <andythenorth> but it's remarkably trivial griefing, and I think it will lead to NRT being banned on servers
13:54:55  <andythenorth> maybe we should include an on/off toggle for NRT in settings?
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14:27:12  <Samu> hi
14:34:58  <Samu> why can't I modify #opcodes in the scenario editor?
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14:40:17  <Alberth> no running AI?
14:41:32  <Alberth> I would consider it a setting specific to a computer system rather than to a specific scenario
14:41:44  <Samu> I am looking at settings.ini, the flags
14:41:54  <Alberth> ok
14:41:55  <Samu> guiflags = SGF_NEWGAME_ONLY
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14:42:56  <Alberth> you can't configure players either in the scenario editor
14:43:28  <Samu> what will happen if I change to guiflags = SGF_NEWGAME_ONLY | SGF_SCENEDIT_TOO
14:43:52  <Samu> there might be GS running in scenario editor, if I recall
14:43:56  <Samu> what will happen to those
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14:44:43  <Alberth> I have no idea
14:44:58  <Samu> neither do I :p
14:47:39  <Samu> building 1.7.2
14:47:48  <Samu> i hope it's not 1.7.2M
14:50:43  <Samu> bah, it became 1.7.2M :(
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14:52:02  <Samu> incompatible with multiplayer servers, i only changed something for the scenario editor :(
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15:01:23  * Rubidium wonders how many games have desynced because something was changed "only" for the scenario editor
15:02:16  <Samu> Rubidium: I request guiflags = SGF_NEWGAME_ONLY | SGF_SCENEDIT_TOO for this setting script.script_max_opcode_till_suspend
15:02:20  <Samu> plz do
15:03:16  <Samu> so i can prepare a scenario for AIs properly
15:04:14  <Wolf01> Since you only need to chenge settings, you can prepare the scenario with a modified version of the game and load it on the base game and stop demanding weird things
15:04:59  <Samu> ^:(
15:06:30  <andythenorth> Wolf01: Eddi says we don't need to worry about downgrades
15:06:40  <andythenorth> so just compatibility check with ROAD
15:06:48  <Wolf01> Good then, the game is ready :P
15:07:06  <Rubidium> Samu: sure, but only once my OpenTTD commit frequency for 2018 is strictly below the frequency of 2017...
15:09:51  <andythenorth> you don't want to breach the limit? o-O
15:10:52  <Wolf01> andythenorth: we need to change road_cmd.cpp:L2377 so if it's not compatible it throws an error too instead of allowing it anyway (currently it throws an error when an incompatible vehicle is found on the road you are converting)
15:11:38  <Wolf01> That is the main point of checking the compatibility
15:12:32  <Wolf01> As it is now, it just works like rail, do you want to change this behavior?
15:13:30  * andythenorth looking
15:13:49  <LordAro> Rubidium: i'm not sure i'd consider that an achievement :p
15:14:12  <Wolf01> Nobody stops you to convert from rail to maglev, and they are incompatible
15:14:32  <andythenorth> but I can't convert your rail
15:14:46  <andythenorth> I hate the griefing crap
15:15:23  <andythenorth> can we just ignore it?
15:15:34  <andythenorth> MP is stupid anyway, except coop
15:15:35  <Wolf01> But it's only a problem with city owned roads
15:16:05  <Wolf01> If you want to create a mining city with haul roads, why not?
15:16:27  <andythenorth> I think no compatibility check
15:16:27  <Wolf01> If another player wanted to use that city for pax... amen
15:16:33  <andythenorth> ship it
15:16:42  <andythenorth> let's get it into trunk, see what the players fo
15:16:43  <andythenorth> do *
15:16:59  <andythenorth> I think we should add *more* opportunities to grief not less
15:17:07  <andythenorth> increase the range of exploits
15:17:59  <Wolf01> Griefing in real life is even worse, and they do it all the time
15:19:19  <Samu> ST2: https://www.openttd.org/en/server/114360
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15:20:26  <Wolf01> Anyway, I'm ok with adding a check only for town roads to be able to convert them only if they are compatible with ROAD
15:22:58  <Samu> what I really wanted was to start an AI company as a client
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15:23:20  <Samu> i join server 7, and I would start an AI there
15:23:27  <Samu> competing with hoomans
15:25:27  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: once upon a time Brianetta ran a "no rules" server, and people still played nice most of the time
15:27:03  <Samu> weird
15:27:22  <Samu> restart didn't made an exact copy of town and industry positionings
15:27:38  <Samu> only copied landscape
15:28:17  <Wolf01> Yes
15:29:18  <andythenorth> Wolf01: so NRT is finished?
15:29:29  <Wolf01> No, there is really a lot to do
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15:30:32  <Wolf01> Patch nml for the "usable as town road" flag, if it needs to be patched, then the next feature we will work on it's this one
15:31:40  <andythenorth> nml will need patched yes
15:31:45  <andythenorth> I can do that
15:35:31  <Samu> isn't the restart command used to do an exacty copy of the map?
15:35:44  <Samu> world
15:36:01  <Samu> help restart
15:37:26  <Samu> btpro client must be the culprit
15:37:46  <Samu> btpro build, i mean
15:39:35  <Samu> ST2: wake up ploz
15:40:13  <Samu> what have you done to map generation code?
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15:40:21  <ST2> 2 options: !voterestart (diff map)  !voterestartgame  (same map)
15:41:00  <Samu> i bet the restart of oficial 1.7.2 is different than your server's 1.7.2
15:41:10  <Samu> can u test it?
15:41:33  <Samu> i get towns in different places
15:41:56  <Samu> the landscape is nearly equal, but raised land is still different
15:42:01  <ST2> yes I can test it - join our server #5 to see it
15:42:06  <Samu> industries are in different places too
15:42:19  <Samu> ok coming
15:42:51  <Samu> bah requires newgrf crap, sec
15:52:00  <Wolf01> andythenorth: do you have some HAUL download link?
15:52:05  <Wolf01> I lost mine
15:52:32  <andythenorth> yes, but afk right now
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15:54:12  <Samu> 309255297
15:55:38  <andythenorth> Wolf01: https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1180663#p1180663
15:55:53  <Wolf01> +1
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16:22:03  <Wolf01> andythenorth: pushed, see if it suits you
16:23:23  * andythenorth tries
16:23:51  <Samu> guys, i think there is a bug with the restart command
16:24:08  <Wolf01> No, there isn't
16:24:39  <Samu> with my config, i got a slightly different town/industry placement than with the config of server 7
16:24:53  <Samu> i now got both config files in my possession
16:25:25  <andythenorth> Wolf01: how about we make catenary a button on the construction toolbar? :P
16:25:26  <Samu> shouldn't the restart do an exact copy, regardless of the base config?
16:25:55  <Wolf01> andythenorth: yes, but that's out of scope of the branch I'm working on
16:26:13  <andythenorth> nah I was just trolling
16:26:45  <Wolf01> Samu: no, a map is created from a lot of different configs: seed, map size, number of industries, difficulty settings...
16:27:56  <Wolf01> We should get a real "seed" and not just a terrain initialization seed, which groups all of them and so you can recreate the same exact map everywhere
16:33:12  <andythenorth> Wolf01: all seems to work :)
16:33:19  <andythenorth> what's left to do there?
16:33:35  <Wolf01> You can't anymore convert town roads to haul, noticed it?
16:33:57  <andythenorth> hmm
16:34:02  <andythenorth> I just did :(
16:34:09  <andythenorth> I thought maybe that was intentional
16:34:30  <andythenorth> oh I did git fetch not pull
16:34:55  <Samu> savegame doesn't save everything?
16:35:39  <Samu> i entered btpro server 7 game, typed restart
16:37:26  <andythenorth> Wolf01: yeah that's much better now
16:37:31  <andythenorth> no mining trucks in town
16:38:14  <Wolf01> Merge it into ratt?
16:39:15  <Samu> is there a difference between economy = 1 and economy = true?
16:39:35  <Wolf01> Yes, one is 1 and one is true
16:40:05  <Samu> im trying to find the culprit, that is making restart look different on both configs
16:41:33  <andythenorth> Wolf01: yeah merge, you doing it or me?
16:42:06  <Wolf01> I'll do it
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16:47:25  <Wolf01> Done
16:47:55  <Wolf01> NRT, now with 75% more griefing
16:49:28  <andythenorth> gr8 :)
16:49:46  <andythenorth> forum announce? o_O
16:50:00  <Wolf01> If you want
16:50:19  <andythenorth> ok
16:51:00  <andythenorth> I'll wait for the build I guess
16:51:04  <andythenorth> https://www.openttd.org/en/download-ratt
16:51:22  <Wolf01> Tomorrow then
16:54:15  <Samu> st2 you have settings that don't exist in a fresh openttd.cfg
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17:18:04  <Samu> i think i found the culprit
17:18:08  <Samu> variety
17:18:22  <Samu> variety isn't saved on savegames, is it?
17:21:38  <Samu> i typed in console 'setting variety 5' then 'restart' and this time I got the exact same replication
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17:29:04  <Samu> var      = game_creation.variety
17:29:13  <Samu> flags    = SLF_NOT_IN_SAVE | SLF_NO_NETWORK_SYNC
17:29:22  <Samu> there it is, the culprit
17:30:03  <Samu> i wonder if i can do something about this
17:31:22  <Wolf01> You can start by gathering every single setting involved in map generation
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17:36:20  <Samu> oh wow, savegames are broken now... lol
17:36:28  <Samu> this requires a savegame conversion? :(
17:36:34  <Samu> sad :(
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18:35:54  <Samu> Wolf01: what's the difference between _settings_game.game_creation.variety and _settings_newgame.game_creation.variety
18:36:18  <Samu> which one is important to put in savegames?
18:37:04  <Wolf01> Don't put stuff in savegames
18:37:59  <Wolf01> Also, the first one is the setting, the second one is used by the newgame generator, copied from settings but not saved back
18:38:47  <Samu> it appears to be the only setting that is not stored in savegames
18:39:04  <Samu> there's another, but it's related to game pause
18:39:11  <Samu> doesn't seem related to map generation
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18:40:31  <Samu> Client setting (not stored in saves; affects all games)
18:40:38  <Samu> seems to be the only client setting
18:43:31  <Samu> https://imgur.com/6MdMyJD
18:55:46  <Samu> how do i convert savegames in a situation like this?
18:56:07  <Samu> seems that no conversion is needed, only a savegame version bump
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19:17:35  <YaBoi> hi
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19:45:38  <Samu> Rubidium: are u the dev admin? https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=82544 fix plz
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19:47:02  <Samu> Wolf01: take a look too plz :)
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19:58:31  <Samu> hey gelignite
19:58:53  <Samu> make your AI grow more towns, not just 1 town
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20:01:45  <supermop> yo
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20:01:51  <Samu> hi
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21:29:33  <supermop> @logs
21:29:33  <DorpsGek> supermop: https://webster.openttdcoop.org/index.php?channel=openttd
21:30:49  <supermop> hi Wolf01
21:34:07  <supermop> i think for some of the stuff you must just ignore it and assume players and grf authors won't make stupid decisions with roads
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22:30:49  <Wolf01> Stuffed with food... 'night
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23:13:42  <Samu> so i was bored and this is what I decided to do
23:13:42  <Samu> https://imgur.com/T5RKXaT
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