Log for #openttd on 18th February 2018:
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08:46:32  <Alberth> o/
09:00:38  <andythenorth> moin
09:05:51  <Alberth> it's a pity the commuter airport is not available longer, would be nice to make a aircraft network to connect the remote towns with each other for BB
09:09:16  <andythenorth> I use OGFX+ Airports
09:09:25  <andythenorth> which fixes quite a lot of airport problems
09:09:40  <andythenorth> dates, costs, noise restrictions
09:09:44  <andythenorth> and rotations
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09:44:11  <Alberth> production in firs increases linearly on arriving cargo, isn't it?
09:44:46  <Alberth> would it be nice if it increases slightly less than linear? it would mean it's better to distribute cargo delivery
09:45:01  <Alberth> although is a style of playing I guess
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09:50:02  <andythenorth> for secondary production?
09:50:14  <andythenorth> it's just linear ratio in->out
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10:07:00  <Wolf01> o/
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10:11:16  <Alberth> o/
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10:49:46  <Samu> hi
11:01:49  <Samu> Wolf01: d you wanna test my Company Value GS?
11:02:11  <Wolf01> No
11:02:22  <Samu> :)
11:03:56  <andythenorth> Wolf01: so NRT all bugs fixed? o_O
11:03:57  <andythenorth> :)
11:04:16  <Wolf01> No, there is a bad bug I don't know how to solve
11:04:30  <Wolf01> Introduced with long-branch-name merge
11:05:15  <Wolf01> Grf says I have ELRL available, game says not, no tram available...
11:05:25  <andythenorth> :o
11:05:42  <Wolf01> But if you load unspooled all works fine
11:06:26  <Wolf01> frosch123: could you help me a bit on that?
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11:27:29  <andythenorth> Wolf01: I can't repro that with Hog
11:27:42  <Wolf01> Did you load only Hog?
11:27:48  <Wolf01> No other grfs
11:28:33  <andythenorth> no other NRT grfs
11:29:26  <Wolf01> But Hog is crafted for NRT, generic trams is generic
11:29:37  <andythenorth> hmm
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11:35:19  <andythenorth> Wolf01: so the issue is with grfs that pre-date NRT?
11:35:29  <Wolf01> Seem so
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11:41:58  <andythenorth> I'll try and repro
11:42:55  <andythenorth> Wolf01: yeah I can repro that with egrvts
11:43:45  <andythenorth> is there already an implemented solution, and it has bugs?  Or does it need a proposal?
11:44:46  <frosch123> old grds used to default to ROAD and ELRL
11:44:48  <frosch123> *grfs
11:44:57  <Wolf01> I implemented a fix for that with long-branch-name, but it doesn't seem to fix that
11:47:59  <frosch123>
11:48:01  <Wolf01> Or at least, I never tried without unspooled
11:48:23  <frosch123> i think i tested it back then
11:49:22  <Wolf01> Yes, it loads fine etc, but the function I introduced to only show available roadtypes now disables the dropdown
11:50:02  <Wolf01> It finds vehicles for ELRL
11:50:15  <Wolf01> But no ELRL is available to build
11:52:01  <Wolf01> and below
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12:09:21  <Samu> LordAro:
12:10:08  <LordAro> woo
12:11:28  <Samu> this is on ratt, the today's version
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12:22:19  <andythenorth> such ships
12:22:21  <andythenorth> such pixels
12:22:29  <andythenorth> such drawing
12:26:18  <Samu> hmm those unspool, roadhog, dock and stuff are not available on toyland, is that intended?
12:26:59  <Samu> wait, i'm not doing the right thing
12:29:12  <Samu> forget about it
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13:01:35  <Samu> uhm... ratt isn't 100% based on r27968, or is it?
13:01:39  <Samu> :(
13:04:11  <Samu> i'm getting different start dates for ai companies
13:04:15  <Samu> t.t
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13:13:01  <Samu> how random is random functions for start dates? :(
13:13:08  <Samu> ai start dates
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14:17:35  <Samu>                                                         there's something about random that isn't deterministic
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14:32:12  <Samu> random isn't deterministic...
14:32:16  <Samu> different manager faces :(
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14:40:21  <LordAro> Samu: is that the same game?
14:40:39  <LordAro> afaik random is only supposed to be deterministic per game (seed)
14:43:09  <Samu> 3 different openttd builds, 2 of each
14:44:15  <Samu> same game yes
14:48:30  <Samu> there's something amiss
14:48:55  <Samu> hmm... in multiplayer, everyone is in sync
14:49:23  <Samu> but in separate singleplayer, something goes out of sync
14:50:15  <Samu> i'm trying to test in exactly equal single player conditions
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14:56:27  <Samu> on new year... something else goes even more out of sync
14:57:15  <Samu>
14:57:43  <Samu> one of the builds got 15 companies, all other builds don't
14:58:49  <Samu> and now everyone is on their different path
14:58:52  <Samu> 3 months after
14:58:53  <Samu> t.t
14:59:19  <Samu> something is affecting company start date
14:59:24  <Samu> ai company start date
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15:18:51  <Samu> oh well... it's not really important, it would just be nice if it could replicate
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15:41:37  <Samu> uhm... i suspect there is another AI issue with ratt
15:41:44  <Samu> must investigate
15:41:49  <Samu> Wolf01:
15:42:05  <Wolf01> No
15:43:08  <Samu> hard to properly identify it, but something is different
15:43:57  <Samu>
15:44:15  <Samu> 1.7.2 + r27968 differ from ratt
15:44:59  <Samu> but... I could be wrong, after all ratt isn't exactly based on 27968
15:45:30  <Samu> and random isn't 100% deterministic
15:46:19  <Wolf01> So what do you want me to fix? The random?
15:47:03  <Samu> no, i'm only wondering what exactly happened, will be hard
15:47:23  <Samu> wondering if it's a real ratt problem or not
15:47:25  <Wolf01> I can't know either
15:48:54  <Samu> nonocab decided to skip road construction, that is odd
15:50:06  <Samu> it's an AI that evaluates costs, pre-determines profits, etc... so, maybe it's getting wrong values for his predictions?
15:50:11  <Samu> Wormnest: HALP
15:51:06  <Wormnest> Hi Samu
15:51:43  <Samu> so, uh... hard to get Wormnest involved in this
15:51:50  <Samu> how to explain
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15:53:37  <Samu> i'm testing nonocab on RATT, which is a openttd being done by Wolf01 that makes an overhaul of roads and trams
15:54:10  <Samu> the AIs should behave the same as in trunk
15:54:33  <Samu> i notice nonocab making different decisions in ratt though
15:55:28  <Wormnest> Did you turn on debug messages for nonocab
15:55:52  <Samu> oh, nop, maybe i should
15:56:23  <Wormnest> Yes you get a lot more info, be aware adding debug messages also changes what it does
15:57:38  <Samu> in trunk and 1.7.2 he made the same stuff, as well as all other ais, but in ratt, they seem to have their own way... the issue is determining if it was some road function that the ais use getting different results in ratt than in 1.7.2/trunk
15:57:58  <Samu> ie. a bug in ratt?
15:58:11  <Samu> ok will try debug
16:06:09  <Samu> hole crap, it's printing the entire estimations, woah, pretty
16:10:14  <Wolf01> Fuck I found the bug... it's called "TODO"
16:10:42  <Eddi|zuHause> those are the worst
16:10:59  <Wolf01> this->SetWidgetDisabledState(WID_TN_TRAMS, !CanBuildRoadTypeInfrastructure(RoadTypeIdentifier(ROADTYPE_TRAM, ROADSUBTYPE_NORMAL), _local_company)); //TODO: should loop through all tramtypes
16:11:25  <Wolf01> It checked only normal RAIL, but only ELRL was available
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16:17:44  <andythenorth> ha ha
16:17:45  <andythenorth> :)
16:17:54  <andythenorth> I have many bugs like that in newgrf
16:28:33  <Wolf01> this->SetWidgetDisabledState(WID_TN_TRAMS, GetCompanyRoadtypes(_local_company, ROADTYPE_TRAM) == ROADSUBTYPES_NONE);
16:28:35  <Wolf01> Better.
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16:41:20  <Alberth> better and simpler at the same time :)
16:46:28  <Wolf01> It was the same thing done inside CanBuildRoadTypeInfrastructure, where it was checking the available subtypes against the RoadTypeIdentifier passed to the function... which is good for the dropdown items and other single stuff, but not for a generic check to disable everything
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17:27:18  <Samu> when can i test generic tram set?
17:27:23  <Samu> Wolf01: andythenorth
18:00:53  * andythenorth refactoring Unsinkable Sam
18:04:09  <Samu> i'm dumping nonocab log when playing 1.7.2 vs ratt vs r27968, for 100 years, if possible, in fast forward then will do a diff on the log, hopefully it can manage megabyte files
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18:13:36  <Samu> the ultimate test for RATT, muahaha
18:14:21  <Samu> it's been 20 years, still outputing the same logs
18:15:28  <Samu> i think i managed how to make openttd replicate the exact same stuff in multiplayer
18:15:39  <Samu> ops, i mean single player
18:16:26  <Samu> requires some .scr file configuration, some command lines for openttd
18:17:32  <Samu> openttd.exe -d script=9 -g -G 0 >> D:\OpenTTD\openttd-ratt-g50f76d75-road-and-tram-types-windows-win64\openttd-ratt-g50f76d75-road-and-tram-types-windows-win64-log.txt 2>&1
18:18:28  <Samu> and inside scripts\game_start.scr
18:18:32  <Samu> i got startai
18:19:00  <Samu> the openttd.cfg file is shared by the 3 builds
18:20:48  <Samu> it's not a dedicated server, it's singleplayer, so i can fast forward the game for 100 years
18:21:50  <ST2> Samu: have you tried to speak it with a football game narrator voice? xD
18:22:08  <Samu> hi :)
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18:26:32  <Samu> fastforwarding speed 1.7.2 > r27968 > ratt
18:26:47  <Samu> ratt is the slowest fast forwarder
19:04:17  <Samu> uh oh, some divergences occured
19:04:31  <Samu> gonna wait till 2051 for a full log...
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19:14:27  <Wolf01> Samu, it's sufficient to check where the first divergence happen, you don't need 100 years of gameplay
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19:40:31  <Samu> diffing between two 50 MB files
19:41:23  <Samu> comon tortoisemerge, u can do it
19:44:17  <Samu> openttd-trunk-r27968-windows-win64-log and openttd-1.7.2-windows-win64-log have the exact same log size, I assume there's no differences
19:44:37  <Samu> openttd-ratt-g50f76d75-road-and-tram-types-windows-win64-log is bigger
19:45:00  <Samu> tortoise is still working ... zzz
19:45:09  <Samu> aha finally
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19:47:38  <Samu> hmm the first difference is
19:47:40  <Samu> dbg: [script] [1] [I] DEBUG: Report for From: Partston Plastic Fountains to Garnway Toy Factory carrying: PLST using engine Powernaught Plastic Truck
19:47:49  <Samu> dbg: [script] [1] [I] DEBUG: Report for From: Findwood Plastic Fountains to Garnway Toy Factory carrying: PLST using engine Powernaught Plastic Truck
19:48:29  <Samu> Wormnest: HALP
19:48:35  <Samu> so it involves trucks
19:49:12  <Samu> how are these reports gathered, by which order, do u know wormnest?
19:50:18  <Wormnest> It just takes a city and then tries to find the best industry connections near them I think
19:52:00  <Samu> first difference happening on line 316k
19:52:05  <Samu> that's past half the log
19:52:08  <Samu> hmm
19:52:22  <Samu> ~50 years in most likely
19:53:12  <Wormnest> Either it dismissed an industry or it added one to use that in the stable version was not
19:53:55  <Wormnest> Need to check what´s different near those 2 industries when nonocab is checking them
19:54:20  <Samu> 'Partston Plastic Fountains' is not found in 1.7.2 and r27968, only on ratt
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19:55:09  <Samu> i need to think
19:55:22  <Samu> from here on, almost everything is different
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20:17:43  <Samu> according to the logs, the world state appears to be different from that point on...
20:17:48  <Samu> what caused that? :(
20:18:08  <Samu> even on some connections, the estimated number of vehicles differ
20:18:15  <Samu> some of the same connections
20:18:29  <Samu> seems that in one world the production of that industry is higher than on the other
20:19:26  <Samu> sorry wolf, this is gonna be harder to identify than i expected
20:19:28  <Samu> Wolf01:
20:21:45  <Samu> no differences detected between 1.7.2 and r27968 with tortoisemerge diff
20:22:17  <Samu> looks very suspicious, but can't prove anything yet
20:26:20  <Rubidium> you're doing something not quite right
20:26:39  <Rubidium> as there are definitely differences between 1.7.2 and r27968 (of trunk)
20:27:57  <Rubidium> there are no differences between 1.7.2 and r27968 of 1.7.2, but for any other branch there are differences
20:29:16  <Samu> ratt is based on which ?
20:30:00  <Rubidium> how am I supposed to know?
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20:33:06  <Samu> how is ratt gonna reach trunk status?
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20:33:56  <Samu> :(
20:34:02  <Samu> i don't know the right questino
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20:35:24  <andythenorth> NRT -> trunk merge relies on (a) some testing (b) someone who agrees to merge it
20:35:52  <lighta> hi guys. I wanted to ask where could we do suggestion for the game ?
20:35:58  <andythenorth> forums
20:36:12  <andythenorth>
20:38:17  <lighta> ty andythenorth just found it
20:40:10  <Samu> andythenorth: is ratt patched upon latest r27968? has it been updaded as such?
20:40:17  <Samu> developed
20:41:24  <andythenorth> the last merge from openttd trunk is svn r27968
20:42:10  <Samu> hmm i see, so it's fair to compare ratt with r27968 and hope for the same result
20:42:39  <andythenorth> probably not
20:42:45  <andythenorth> depends what you're comparing
20:43:08  <Samu> comparing AI on the same replica of the world on both builds
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20:45:20  <Samu> are replays possible?
20:45:27  <Samu> in single player
20:45:49  <Samu> i heard there was a way to look for desyncs
20:46:22  <Samu> brb
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21:01:14  <Samu> As desyncs are hard to make reproducible OpenTTD has the ability to log all actions done by clients so we can replay the whole game in an effort to make desyncs better reproducible.
21:01:20  <Samu> is there a guide for this?
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21:32:42  <Samu> time to give up
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21:55:17  <Wolf01> Samu, I'd expect 2 identical games played on RATT will produce the same output, the same as would happen in trunk or 1.7.2, is it pointless to compare AI behaviour or random stuff between different branches as there might be subtle changes which are needed for the NRT implementation
21:55:56  <Wolf01> You already spotted the most problematic ones (miscalculations and unability to build adjacent stations) and I fixed them
21:56:08  <Wolf01> This night trams will be fixed too
21:57:28  <Samu> nice
21:58:09  <Samu> at 3 am?
21:58:14  <Samu> will be too late for me
21:58:32  <Wolf01> Get the latest sources and compile it yourself
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22:00:30  <Samu> seems that there's no more issues with AIs that I'm aware of
22:01:22  <Samu> tomorrow will test trams better
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22:06:22  <Samu> these subtle random changes that happen unexpectedly
22:06:29  <Samu> :(
22:06:42  <Samu> pff, oh well, at least I tried
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22:32:11  <Samu> Wolf01: What is the NML fork?
22:32:34  <Wolf01> ?
22:32:45  <Wolf01> It's the nml fork
22:33:03  <Samu> ... tRoadTypes
22:33:20  <Samu>
22:33:50  <Wolf01> It's the nml fork to build grfs for NRT
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22:34:09  <Samu> ahhhh, so it's nothing i should care about
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22:34:17  <Samu> trying to get the source :(
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22:40:12  <Samu> this is it, the source?
22:41:28  <Samu> nice job, i can build trams
22:42:15  <Samu> first bug!
22:42:17  <Samu> costs differ :p
22:42:58  <Samu> are you supposed to fix these too?
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22:45:06  <Samu> maintenance costs match, construction costs are doubled
22:45:41  <Samu> £71 vs £142
22:45:45  <Samu> per piece
22:50:27  <Wolf01> supermop_work: was browsing the forums, I found this one by pikka, it's nice with poles in the middle :D
22:51:59  <Wolf01> Samu, no, I won't fix those, RAIL costs are the same as ROAD, ELRL costs are the same as ELRD, which are  double
22:53:31  <Samu> it's called tramway construction in trunk, but electrified tramway construction in ratt
22:53:45  <Samu> hmm :(
22:53:49  <Samu> oki
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22:54:54  <Wolf01> You could make a petition in the forum if you want :)
22:56:27  <Samu> i don't remember which ais build trams... must see if they're properly building
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23:18:37  <Samu> okay Wolf01, the very few AIs that build trams can't build trams on ratt :(
23:19:14  <Wolf01> Maybe they try to build RAIL
23:20:28  <Samu> trans also builds trams, but for some reason it detects ratt as revision 0
23:20:31  <Wolf01> Try with unspooled loaded and roadhog for NRT
23:20:43  <Samu> and doesn't start because revision is low
23:21:02  <Wolf01> Eh
23:21:18  <Wolf01> BTW, 'night
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