Log for #openttd on 24th February 2018:
Times are UTC Toggle Colours
00:06:56  <Samu> 2 years
00:10:19  <Eddi|zuHause> that only happens when things break :p
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00:19:39  <Samu> last year
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00:54:24  <Samu> finished
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03:37:00  <Gustavo6046> Tunnels are costly. Is there no cheap way to get past a mountain without penalizing the vehicular speed??
03:37:10  <Gustavo6046> Sometimes going around isn't a simple solution.
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06:51:49  <TrueBrain> yes, LordAro, sometimes people work and need sleep and that childish stuff :P
06:52:05  <TrueBrain> the Rust bot is funny;  it is a nice way to solve that master should always compile (and succeed in tests)
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08:15:00  <Wolf01> Moin
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09:43:13  <Samu> HI
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10:48:57  <Samu> how many times can I edit a topic?
10:49:04  <TrueBrain> 12 times
10:49:15  <Samu> nah, can't be, it's already at 27
10:49:24  <TrueBrain> file a bug report; should be 12
10:49:32  <Samu> :(
10:50:04  <Samu> there was a forum, i think that had a limit :(
10:50:26  <TrueBrain> in some existance, somewhere on the world wide web, it must hold true, that there was a forum, which had a limit
10:51:43  <Samu> I'm updating this topic from time to time. Today was that time, I was only wondering if there's a limit
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10:54:53  <Samu> wormnest, your ai finished
10:54:58  <Samu>
10:55:20  <Samu> still need to uplaod screenshots
10:56:49  <Wormnest> Thanks Samu, looks like it´s doing pretty good
10:57:40  <Samu> after screenshots,i still have ships, aircraft and trains to test :( kinda boring to set everything up
10:57:50  <Samu> i know ships will take forever :(
10:58:33  <Wormnest> Oh well, it keeps you off the streets :p
11:11:39  <dihedral> Hello
11:13:14  <Samu> hi
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11:17:00  <Samu> there are still players who don't know how to loan :(
11:24:37  <Samu> i can see that the screenshot section is gonna be hard to navigate
11:24:46  <Samu> if i keep adding
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12:27:49  <TrueBrain> morning frosch123
12:27:51  <TrueBrain> RFC:
12:27:58  <TrueBrain> any comments will go
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12:28:15  <frosch123> hoi
12:29:37  <LordAro> TrueBrain: gitlab isn't necessarily self-hosted
12:29:44  <TrueBrain> I am aware
12:29:59  <LordAro> also o/
12:30:33  <Flygon> Man.
12:30:38  <Flygon> LordAro forever lives in my mind.
12:30:44  <Flygon> It's that damned xkcd connection.
12:30:50  <LordAro> er
12:30:51  <LordAro> hi
12:31:19  <Flygon> Yeah I just realized I sounded creepy af sorry
12:31:20  <Flygon> x.x
12:31:23  <LordAro> ;)
12:41:49  <TrueBrain> LordAro: I cannot imagine that is all you have to comment on it, so what gives? :)
12:42:34  <LordAro> sorry, KSPing
12:42:52  <LordAro> i'll take another look
12:43:14  <TrueBrain> you were complaining it was not going quick enough here :P
12:46:05  <planetmaker> TrueBrain, the last point "server itself requires maintenace". You mean the HV, or what does it refer to?
12:47:02  <TrueBrain> yes
12:47:04  <TrueBrain> the physical server
12:47:45  <planetmaker> just curious: do we require more server power there, or what does need maintenance there?
12:47:54  <TrueBrain> OS upgrade
12:48:02  <planetmaker> ok... yeah, HV upgrade
12:48:02  <TrueBrain> we might want to move to other hardware soon-ish
12:48:06  <TrueBrain> (it is .. 5 years old now?)
12:48:18  <planetmaker> dunno... about yeah
12:48:24  <TrueBrain> and maybe worth considering, cloud
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12:48:51  <TrueBrain> maybe not for the CF, but possibly for things like website, BaNaNaS, etc
12:48:57  <TrueBrain> just so it becomes serverless
12:49:19  <planetmaker> cloud... isn't it just a fancy name for "a VM somewhere else"?
12:49:38  <TrueBrain> serverless, is mainly the part of cloud I would be interested in
12:49:43  <TrueBrain> just: here is some Python, you run it now
12:49:48  <TrueBrain> here are some HTML files, you run it now
12:52:10  <planetmaker> you still need all the access we have now, don't you?
12:52:26  <planetmaker> Just curious... not sure I get how that is supposed to work :)
12:52:28  <TrueBrain> what do you mean, 'access'?
12:52:38  <TrueBrain> say you have a website, HTML, Javascript, and CSS
12:52:39  <planetmaker> to the management of the services
12:52:43  <TrueBrain> do you care on what server it runs? What OS?
12:52:48  <planetmaker> no, I don't
12:52:53  <TrueBrain> you just want something to host those files, so others can access it
12:52:58  <TrueBrain> that is called serverless, in a nutshell
12:53:07  <TrueBrain> so the "cloud" takes care of that shit for you
12:53:12  <TrueBrain> including upgrades, maintaince, etc
12:53:18  <TrueBrain> you just want high availability
12:53:22  <TrueBrain> same goes for Python applications
12:53:35  <planetmaker> so... something like light-weight containers where several run parallel on the same  machine - we just don't care about the machine
12:53:36  <TrueBrain> I just want something to execute this Python 3.6 application
12:53:48  <planetmaker> just a separate login for us
12:53:52  <TrueBrain> I dont care if it is 1 machine, or 100 machines
12:53:57  <TrueBrain> I dont want to login to the machine
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12:54:05  <TrueBrain> I just want it to be :)
12:54:08  <planetmaker> well, you need to modify your own website ;)
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12:54:15  <TrueBrain> then you upload new files :)
12:54:29  <TrueBrain> for example, AWS
12:54:34  <TrueBrain> there you upload your files to S3
12:54:44  <TrueBrain> you tell some fancy thing: if something hits this URL, serve this file
12:54:50  <TrueBrain> if I want to update my file, I do so
12:54:52  <TrueBrain> that is it
12:55:13  <planetmaker> ok, ty
12:55:21  <planetmaker> got it, I guess
12:55:35  <TrueBrain> we are so used to worry about everything, from network connection, to location, to hardware, to OS, ...
12:55:47  <TrueBrain> but nowedays, it is no longer important :)
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12:55:57  <TrueBrain> and if AWS runs it on 10 machines, or on 1
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12:56:02  <TrueBrain> if he runs it in France, or in USA
12:56:10  <TrueBrain> who cares :D
12:56:19  <TrueBrain> (in reality, it runs in many places, sort of :P)
12:57:47  <frosch123> TrueBrain:
12:58:18  <TrueBrain> frosch123: difference between "1.7.2" and nightly are only the targets it runs for and the version it gets
12:58:25  <TrueBrain> the path is identical :)
12:58:57  <TrueBrain> you really want the CF to validate each PR, in general :)
12:59:39  <TrueBrain> (the testing part)
12:59:50  <frosch123> yes, but no publishing of binaries
13:00:11  <planetmaker> frosch123, compatibility also works for identical hashes iirc.
13:00:29  <TrueBrain> frosch123: ack
13:00:41  <TrueBrain> and we already support git for multiplayer
13:01:03  <planetmaker> just the version string needs to fit. And it needs to fit cross-platform. I recall there to be sometimes problems with different lengths of them at some stage - which declared them incompatible, but they were in fact built from the same source
13:01:45  <TrueBrain> frosch123: tnx a lot for feedback :) Just a bit unsure what you mean about the FF .. do you mean: we should do FF, or: we shouldn't? I am not sure we understood each other there
13:03:33  <frosch123> when pr are reviewed, usually you request changes. i would expect those changes to not be added on top, but to have the PR be rebased with adjusted commit contents
13:03:51  <TrueBrain> that is exactly the choices you have :)
13:03:59  <frosch123> so i expect PR to constantly get rebased
13:04:00  <TrueBrain> some people make a new commit with the fixes, and squash it at the end
13:04:05  <TrueBrain> others rebase
13:04:18  <TrueBrain> personally I think for starters enforcing FF is a good thing for OpenTTD
13:04:22  <TrueBrain> it is more "like SVN"
13:04:36  <TrueBrain> but if you look at Rust, they went overboard with allowing different flows :)
13:04:44  <TrueBrain> (and yes, I assumed all PRs are reviewed :P)
13:06:46  <frosch123> squash-at-the-end is still a kind of rebase
13:07:02  <TrueBrain> kinda; it mostly depends when the CI has a chance to do its validation
13:07:05  <TrueBrain> before merge or after
13:08:16  <TrueBrain> anyway, minor settings and stuff .. otherwise you agree with the idea?
13:09:07  <frosch123> yes, put as much into the cloud as possible :)
13:09:20  <TrueBrain> :D
13:09:25  <planetmaker> I guess we should do the same with the coop repos at some stage, too
13:09:35  <TrueBrain> you also agree with my summarization of the two requests you put down? :D
13:09:42  <frosch123> i also like the configuration of the farm (adding of jobs) via some vcs (if i got that right)
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13:10:06  <TrueBrain> I want everything to be controlable via git, yes .. so anyone with access is in control
13:10:21  <TrueBrain> and I would really like to be as much aspossible that you can run it on your local machine as well
13:11:00  <frosch123> about the goals: i keep wondering about the purpose of a "single main stable branch"
13:11:31  <TrueBrain> what else would you define as "official" OpenTTD?
13:11:32  <frosch123> as i see it the players separate into different interest groups, which follow conflicting goals
13:11:48  <TrueBrain> wouldnt that confuse a lot of players?
13:11:54  <planetmaker> well, players always had different interests, did they?
13:11:58  <TrueBrain> (serious question; I do not know the answer)
13:12:12  <frosch123> so i dream about "openttd for sandbox", "openttd for competive millenials", "openttd for wannabe economics students" :p
13:12:25  <TrueBrain> this concept does allow that
13:12:35  <frosch123> but i do not see a way to unify those goals into a single main branch anymore
13:12:36  <TrueBrain> you just never promote any fork to be "the only one" :P
13:12:37  <planetmaker> Having a single "official" branch is good to keep the project focused. But with so few people contributing, that's become a pretty difficult thing
13:13:15  <TrueBrain> possibly even demote the current trunk to be "official"
13:13:16  <frosch123> TrueBrain: it depends on how people discover ottd
13:13:22  <planetmaker> It means to make decisions - and sticking somewhat to that one decision. Taking the lead. It's a hard and possibly harsh decision .But you never can satisfy everyone
13:13:40  <frosch123> but as i see it, those who discover ottd via social networks already use inofficial clients
13:13:50  <TrueBrain> that is very true
13:15:38  <LordAro> might want to take a look at how openage guys do PRs as well
13:15:58  <LordAro> they like to go way overboard, with style checkers, copyright checkers and everything else all at the CI level
13:16:08  <LordAro> they made their own CI system to run it
13:16:19  <LordAro> and they also "enforce" rebasing, which is much nicer IMO
13:16:32  <TrueBrain> what is nice about FF, that your history is clean
13:16:32  <LordAro> rebasing PRs*
13:16:34  <TrueBrain> no stupid merge shit
13:16:58  <LordAro> but equally, FF makes it clear which commits are connected to which PR/author
13:17:14  <TrueBrain> but I am sure time will show a way :)
13:17:24  <frosch123> LordAro: both sounds good to me :) i stopped reading some fs patches just because the diff started with 3 whitespace changes :p
13:17:58  <LordAro> TrueBrain: e.g.
13:18:30  <TrueBrain> it is so silly OpenTTD still uses manual reviews :P
13:18:35  <TrueBrain> it is so old-fashioned :)
13:19:28  <frosch123> to add to the "multiple branches" thing: at work i never have any issue to decide what is the right thing to do, because the software has a scientific correct thing to do. but in a game there are arbitrary decisions
13:20:57  <TrueBrain> frosch123: any other active people that might have feedback on this?
13:21:04  <TrueBrain> or shall we just start making it happen?
13:21:34  <LordAro> might be an idea to put it on the forums?
13:21:43  <LordAro> i have no idea what goes on there these days
13:21:54  <planetmaker> what would the forums contribute?
13:22:02  <planetmaker> what could they?
13:22:24  <LordAro> well the people making all the "forks" that you think might have potential are there
13:23:05  <frosch123> TrueBrain: michi_cc and peter1138 are both git fanboys
13:23:26  <TrueBrain> LordAro: I think frosch123 should write some kind of manifesto about his ideas for OpenTTD
13:23:31  <TrueBrain> that might be more valuable
13:23:33  <frosch123> alberth is the only one i do not know about
13:23:41  <TrueBrain> I just build on 2 pilars from that :)
13:23:53  <LordAro> ah yeah, alberth hasn't been around
13:24:25  <frosch123> LordAro: i have not read forums in half a year :)
13:24:57  <planetmaker> aye... Alberth should have a say, I guess, being the 2nd most active after frosch?
13:26:29  <frosch123> TrueBrain: <- that used to be my manifesto for the stable branch. but it only works for people who know ttd from their childhood. i do not see anyone join based on that :)
13:27:01  <TrueBrain> so extend on it? :)
13:27:11  <TrueBrain> that can still stand ofc, but the thing following becomes more imrpotant now :)
13:35:04  <TrueBrain> anyway, I will make some things happen on my side; mostly look into how to populate GitHub with both the right issues and the right commits/branches
13:39:15  <TrueBrain> frosch123: I think it might also be worth in talking to orudge; would be nice if every fork could get his own subforum to talk about it
13:39:23  <TrueBrain> 1 thread per fork is abit ..annoying :D
13:40:33  <Wolf01> It's already difficult to get people to talk on a single thread... maybe a "forks" subforum
13:41:06  <TrueBrain> I would really go 1 subforum per fork, but that is just me :)
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13:45:19  <Wolf01> Magnet lost its attraction.
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13:47:34  <Wolf01> Are we all again?
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13:47:56  <TrueBrain> what is funny about this channel.. even after years (read: 10+), there are still ~100 people in here
13:47:57  <TrueBrain> :P
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13:48:08  <Wolf01> :D
13:48:24  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: go read ; let me know what you think :P
13:48:54  <Wolf01> The nice part is that of those 100, the active ones are like 10-15
13:49:31  * andythenorth reads
13:50:02  <Wolf01> I've never seen some of them talking, and I'm here since 2004 plus or minus a month
13:50:24  <TrueBrain> @seen Bjarni
13:50:24  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 6 years, 20 weeks, 2 days, 13 hours, 31 minutes, and 18 seconds ago: <Bjarni> heh
13:50:36  <TrueBrain> wen can always use DorpsGek to find out who never said anything :P
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13:55:02  <andythenorth> ok so for main, PR -> CI -> build
13:55:13  <andythenorth> also -> publish
13:56:02  <TrueBrain> build and publish is optional from PR
13:57:20  <andythenorth> so I can make forks that include my crypto-miner? o_O
13:57:26  <TrueBrain> you can
13:57:33  <andythenorth> and users will think it's 'official-ish'
13:57:41  <TrueBrain> ish, yes
13:57:44  <andythenorth> hmm, actually they don't believe NRT is official-ish
13:57:54  <andythenorth> I had real hard time convincing people it wasn't a hokey fork
13:58:08  <andythenorth> probably all fine
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14:02:01  <andythenorth> TrueBrain: all looks good to me
14:02:07  <andythenorth> I can't answer the git unknowns
14:02:12  <TrueBrain> cool; tnx :)
14:02:15  <TrueBrain> nah, we will figure that out :)
14:02:19  <andythenorth> but I would like to help with website and Bananas rebuild
14:02:44  <andythenorth> I don't see why website isn't mostly static tbh
14:02:52  <andythenorth> it's not doing much
14:03:03  <TrueBrain> indeed
14:05:14  <andythenorth> bananas seems too hard to work on afaict
14:05:28  <andythenorth> frosch123 made a VM to at least make dev possible
14:05:39  <andythenorth> but it seems a clunky way to dev / deploy
14:07:26  <TrueBrain> yeah .. I would consider making it a cloud solution
14:07:32  <TrueBrain> guess we need to email AWS what they can do for us :)
14:09:32  <andythenorth> the challenge in web dev is always building the app :(
14:09:38  <andythenorth> either for dev, or in production
14:15:56  <TrueBrain> meh; a while ago I rebuild in Angular .. just to realise it demanded you have Javascript .. which is silly for a page like
14:16:11  <TrueBrain> never got to it looking further into that
14:16:29  <andythenorth> it's a solved problewm
14:16:39  <andythenorth> just have to have the argument about which framework :P
14:16:57  <andythenorth> there are 3 or 4 perfectly good python web frameworks
14:17:31  <TrueBrain> I just said Angular :P
14:17:37  <TrueBrain> nothing to do with Python :)
14:17:56  <TrueBrain> the dynamic part was trivial :)
14:19:28  <peter1138> hi
14:21:49  <andythenorth> I don't javascript :P
14:21:56  <andythenorth> it's kind of a principle
14:23:26  <TrueBrain> that is why you TypeScript these days!
14:23:38  <TrueBrain> for BaNaNaS itself Angular would be a really solid solution
14:23:41  <TrueBrain> with a decent API behind it
14:23:46  <TrueBrain> rewrite musa to use the API too
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14:24:45  <TrueBrain> but like I said .. I see a lot of benefit for writing it in the cloud, but I guess we need to investigate that ;)
14:28:50  <LordAro> TrueBrain: boo, angular
14:28:51  <LordAro> hiss
14:28:52  <LordAro> etc
14:29:00  <TrueBrain> and now with any valid argument?
14:29:10  <LordAro> i dislike javascript
14:29:16  <LordAro> its usage should be minimised
14:29:19  <TrueBrain> that is not an argument ;)
14:29:25  <LordAro> :p
14:29:25  <TrueBrain> and again, Angular is TypeScript
14:29:30  <TrueBrain> huge difference
14:29:44  <andythenorth> there's never an objective argument about web frameworks
14:29:46  <TrueBrain> mostly people saying stuff like that to me, never did anything with it :) But that is just my experience :)
14:29:48  <LordAro> JS-only sites tend to be really bad for accessibility purposes as well
14:29:49  <andythenorth> it's just editor wars again
14:30:03  <andythenorth> my objection is that I lost 4 days of my life to JS in 2001
14:30:10  <LordAro> and they're usually blank when JS is turned off
14:30:17  <LordAro> andythenorth: only 4?
14:30:21  <andythenorth> trying to make something work we'd sold, that couldn't be made to work
14:30:53  <andythenorth> I have nothing objective
14:31:05  <Samu> testing aircraft!
14:31:17  <TrueBrain> taking a poop!
14:31:33  <andythenorth> infringing infosec!
14:35:56  <Wolf01> I still prefer using PHP and a little of JS when really necessary (ajax stuff) :P
14:36:38  <TrueBrain> these days I really like writing a solid backend, and writing a frontend totally separate from it .. via a well defined API ..
14:36:46  <TrueBrain> also nice to write mobile apps against
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14:37:17  <TrueBrain> also why it is very unlikely I would be using Django again for any project of mine
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14:39:22  <Wolf01> I would go with Symfony + Angular on my projects
14:39:27  <planetmaker> you seem to prefer to write new and then discard maintenance as "it's a pile of cruft" :P
14:40:29  <TrueBrain> the chances of any code base not touched for 12 years being any decent, is very very very slim in general, yes :)
14:40:30  * planetmaker seeks cover
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14:43:40  <andythenorth> I am switching to this for website backends
14:43:50  <andythenorth> there's a free developer edition
14:44:10  <TrueBrain> how much did they pay you to link that?
14:44:15  <TrueBrain> not sure if we should kick you now or not :P
14:44:29  <Wolf01> :D
14:44:35  <LordAro> clearly should just use rails
14:44:46  <andythenorth> I am paying them :(
14:44:51  <TrueBrain> as everyone should use dead langauges :P (did I say that out loud? :P)
14:45:03  <andythenorth> can I get a discount for affiliate referrals?
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14:45:56  <Wolf01> o/
14:45:57  <LordAro> o/
14:46:51  <TrueBrain> Alberth / peter1138: <- any comments?
14:47:05  <LordAro> Alberth: there's a fair bit of scrollback for you to go through :)
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14:56:29  <Alberth> @logs
14:56:29  <DorpsGek> Alberth:
15:12:40  <Alberth> TrueBrain: seems fine to me
15:13:04  <Alberth> I ownder if we should use more github, eg markdownify the wiki
15:14:02  <TrueBrain> you want to migrate the current wiki? Or do I misunderstand you here? :)
15:14:10  <LordAro> something to consider afterwards, i'd say
15:14:25  <andythenorth> frosch was quite strongly in favour of keeping a wiki format
15:14:33  <andythenorth> and leaving documentation mostly with users
15:14:58  <Alberth> ok, just a thought
15:15:14  <TrueBrain> we can move important pages :D
15:15:20  <TrueBrain> it can in theory also host the webpage :P
15:15:21  <andythenorth> I proposed killing the wiki, because I don't like wikis :)
15:15:30  <andythenorth> I dislike 'untidy' :(
15:15:46  <TrueBrain> your OCD should not keep others from enjoying it :)
15:15:49  <andythenorth> did github kill 'pages'?
15:16:07  <andythenorth> there was some thing where you could host static websites based on markdown or so
15:16:13  <andythenorth> but I think it died
15:16:18  <TrueBrain> github can host your pages :P
15:16:25  <LordAro> static stuff only though
15:16:29  <andythenorth>
15:16:29  <Alberth> don't know what pages are, but isn't there things?
15:16:37  <LordAro> same thing
15:17:18  <Alberth> multiple, more dedicated versions seems like a nice idea
15:17:27  <andythenorth> I should move my newgrf projects to github
15:17:36  <andythenorth> but then I have to reinvent coop infra
15:18:20  <Alberth> can't you push a build result to coop?
15:18:34  <TrueBrain> Alberth: I am very curious if that is what people want; but worth the try :)
15:18:59  <TrueBrain> and having a normal 2018-type code-review workflow would benefit the project for sure :P
15:19:59  <Alberth> perhaps not, both cirdan and jgr mostly do openttd+stuff
15:20:36  <Alberth> but one could make a version that drops all old crap :p
15:20:44  <andythenorth> I could only push a build result to coop if I had a build farm :). But the build farm is coop
15:20:44  <Alberth> have a sane base set
15:21:00  <Alberth> gh has build stuff too
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15:21:23  <Alberth> travis, i think it's called
15:21:39  <LordAro> has anyone given any thought to bringing jgr & cirdan on as devs?
15:21:51  <LordAro> Alberth: travis is one option, there are several
15:22:05  <LordAro> could use existing bamboo stuff in the meantime
15:23:40  <LordAro> the first step as i see it is to migrate issues to github
15:23:46  <LordAro> that can be done even if github all falls through
15:24:26  <Alberth> tbh I don't know why one would bother porting the issues imho
15:24:55  <Alberth> just store them in a repo or a subdir, or even just forget about them
15:25:17  <LordAro> we're pretty sure that github would autolink the stuff in the commit messages
15:25:38  <LordAro> but eh, i guess it's a low priority thing
15:28:37  <Alberth> it won't link the old issues, not in the last place as git has a somewhat different revision numbering scheme
15:30:14  <LordAro> well no, but #nnnn will get linked
15:30:35  <LordAro> (maybe, the FS#nnnn might not)
15:30:40  <LordAro> anyway, bikeshedding
15:49:12  <andythenorth> we should boatshed instead
15:49:15  * andythenorth boatshedding
15:56:09  <Alberth> just add boat pixels!
16:01:14  <TrueBrain> You have to bump the issue to at least the number of FS, otherwise GitHub will falsely link issues to commits
16:01:23  <TrueBrain> doing that is as much effort as importing them, so meh
16:05:27  <supermop> yo
16:10:15  <Alberth> o/
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16:21:44  <Samu> what are the chances of random ai rolling CluelessPlus twice in a row? out of 42 AIs? :(
16:22:26  <LordAro> @calc 1/(42*42)
16:22:26  <DorpsGek> LordAro: 0.000566893424036
16:23:00  <Samu> sometimes I wonder how random is random
16:23:00  <andythenorth> somehow
16:23:07  <andythenorth> I made it fun to draw boats
16:23:10  <andythenorth> that was unexpected
16:23:19  <Wolf01> nice
16:23:44  <andythenorth> such chibi
16:23:48  <Wolf01>
16:24:06  <Wolf01> They look really good
16:24:29  <andythenorth> Wolf01: stay out of trains :P
16:24:32  <andythenorth> it's a tarpit
16:24:34  <Wolf01> :D
16:25:12  <Wolf01> I have some more chibi things to make, don't worry, I don't have space or time for trains now
16:25:46  <andythenorth>
16:26:55  <andythenorth> so
16:27:15  <Alberth> andy has a tarpit right at home :p
16:27:18  <andythenorth> ships that are 128px in – direction consistently flicker
16:27:24  <andythenorth> this is inevitable?
16:32:44  <supermop> make them articulated?
16:35:45  <andythenorth> lol
16:36:01  <andythenorth> are bounding boxes real?
16:36:04  <andythenorth> or a myth?
16:36:25  <andythenorth> my assumption is the spritesorter needs to know the dimensions of a sprite
16:37:42  <supermop> can you abuse sprite stacks?
16:38:29  <supermop> for each chunk of ship to be its own sprite
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16:40:18  <andythenorth> wondering
16:40:48  <andythenorth> oops
16:40:53  <andythenorth> crashed OpenTTD....again
16:43:06  <Wolf01> Don't report crashes by changing grfs ingame ;)
16:48:38  <andythenorth> lol
16:51:48  <andythenorth> so what's left in NRT then?
16:51:54  <andythenorth> is it trunk candidate yet?
16:52:11  <andythenorth> it's not lilke trunk has never included anything unfinished, or with bugs :)
16:54:50  <Wolf01> Imho it works
16:55:33  <supermop> poles in the middle of the road
16:56:09  <supermop> nml binary with town roads
16:56:11  <andythenorth> Wolf01: GS and AI support?
16:56:24  <andythenorth> supermop: I don't know how to make a Windows binary, sorry
16:56:31  <Wolf01> GS and AI will need to be tweaked
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16:56:54  <Wolf01> Also the game code might need a bit of work
17:07:31  *** Cubey has joined #openttd
17:21:36  <Gustavo6046> Guys
17:22:05  <Gustavo6046> Does covering more of a city (using station joining) increase the influx of passengers?
17:29:58  <Alberth> why don't you simply try it?
17:38:12  <frosch123> supermop: <- town road choice branch
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17:53:20  <supermop> ooh
17:54:39  <supermop> Wolf01: can you remind me how it works? what is the name of the property?
17:56:38  <andythenorth>
17:56:40  <andythenorth> supermop: ^
17:56:59  <supermop> lower is better?
18:02:19  *** Thedarkb1 has joined #openttd
18:02:36  <andythenorth> I would have expected higher is better
18:02:43  <andythenorth> dunno :)
18:02:46  <supermop> lets test
18:03:01  <supermop> i have dirt at 8, stone at 4 and asphalt at 2
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18:06:59  <supermop> hmmm
18:11:57  <supermop> unkown action 0 property 0x1e
18:12:04  <supermop> disabling unspooled
18:14:55  <supermop> is that the town weight property?
18:15:31  <supermop> looks like it
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18:15:43  <supermop> this is last nights NRT build...
18:16:19  <frosch123> ask Wolf01
18:16:44  <supermop> maybe i need a branch other than nrt nightly
18:17:00  <supermop> nml doesn't complain
18:18:11  <planetmaker> andythenorth, I guess you're right with moving newgrf repos to github. We should start migrating that
18:18:35  <planetmaker> and the build repo can be made to interact with basically any repo. It simply needs configuring the proper source
18:18:43  <andythenorth> planetmaker: so we could keep bundles? o_O
18:18:51  <frosch123> planetmaker: eints cannot push to remote
18:18:52  <supermop> andythenorth: Wolf01: is the nrt nightly compatible with town weight?
18:19:14  <andythenorth> supermop: no
18:19:15  <frosch123> hmm, otoh, it just needs a github account
18:19:17  <planetmaker> dunno, it can also push elsewhere. Jenkins itself is quite autonomous. bundles is for it "just a server"
18:19:36  <supermop> ok well that explains the error
18:19:54  <planetmaker> though the server currently is kinda included as file system
18:20:11  <andythenorth> I was just thinking to reduce maintenance burden
18:20:27  <andythenorth> when devzone repo access breaks, it relies on frosch or spike
18:20:36  <frosch123> currently it works :p
18:20:40  <planetmaker> :D
18:20:50  <andythenorth> leave it until next major break?
18:21:08  <frosch123> until after ottd is migrated?
18:21:11  <planetmaker> the flaky thing is the web interface... ssh is much more robust
18:21:12  <andythenorth> no gain in looking for work
18:21:39  <frosch123> planetmaker: i switched the cron job to just restart before the eints push :p
18:21:44  <planetmaker> :D
18:21:50  <planetmaker> like it
18:22:03  <frosch123> the vm is just too small
18:22:17  <frosch123> it runs out of memory when someone downloads a zip bundle from rhodecode or something
18:22:37  <supermop> andythenorth: so should i send you this spool version to test?
18:22:53  <andythenorth> supermop: you'd need a windows binary?
18:23:17  <andythenorth> what we need is a new compile farm :)
18:23:22  <supermop> yes, but if you want to test it in my stead could just send to you
18:23:22  <andythenorth> that builds more branches
18:23:33  <andythenorth> I don't actually know much about it
18:23:40  <andythenorth> it's a Wolf01 idea :)
18:24:27  <supermop> ok
18:40:47  <andythenorth> I finished 5 ships :)
18:41:13  <andythenorth> just 24 more to go
18:46:53  <Samu> how do I generate a nice @listfile on windows?
18:53:47  <supermop> Wolf01: do you want to test these roads?
18:54:11  <Samu> anyway, i'm bored and decided to compress an mp3 using the best file compressor in existance
18:54:20  <Samu> what am I gonna expect
18:55:11  <Samu> paq8px archiver v138 (C) 2018, Matt Mahoney et al.
18:55:38  <Samu> the archiver now requires a @filelist
18:55:44  <Samu> i have no idea how to generate one nicely
18:55:59  <Samu> or @listfile
18:56:36  <Samu> well, forget it, it's not openttd related
18:56:45  <Cubey> Are you just talking about a list of filenames?
18:56:56  <Samu> yes, but also pathnames
18:57:01  <Samu> recursive
18:57:09  <Samu> not full pathnames though
18:57:53  <Cubey> Full pathnames wouldn't work? I guess you could remove the unneeded part of the path with a simple find and replace
18:58:18  <Cubey> dir /s/b
18:58:24  <Samu> also, windows filenames may contain spaces
18:58:41  <Samu> it fails to find files with space :(
18:59:52  <Samu> if the file is enclosed with "", like "file with spaces"
19:00:03  <Samu> it can compress, but i dunno how to generate such filelist
19:00:29  <Cubey> dir /s/b > listfile.txt and then find and replace away the parts of the paths with spaces
19:01:48  <andythenorth> hmm
19:02:02  <andythenorth>
19:02:07  <andythenorth> supermop: not feeling that sprite
19:02:11  <andythenorth>
19:02:14  <andythenorth>
19:02:22  <andythenorth> I think the 2CC upper works doesn't work
19:03:03  <andythenorth> variants in the spritesheet
19:03:07  <andythenorth> needs more work though eh?
19:03:34  <frosch123> make some of the cages blue?
19:04:01  <frosch123> or maybe all of them
19:04:10  <frosch123> cages blend in with the hull currently
19:04:23  <andythenorth> yeah
19:04:36  <andythenorth> they could be white, but then it's a lot of white
19:04:46  <andythenorth> might look like a ferry :P
19:05:09  <planetmaker> the cages could be rusty-brown
19:05:20  <frosch123> or add some bigs and cows walking on the roof?
19:05:26  <frosch123> *pigs
19:05:37  <planetmaker> indeed... do they need a roof? :)
19:06:32  <frosch123> also some life buoys for them
19:06:51  <andythenorth> :P
19:07:32  <andythenorth> in iron horse, they have more contrast
19:12:23  <Gustavo6046> I quit
19:12:33  <Gustavo6046> I suck at railways
19:21:54  <Samu> is that an AI?
19:25:48  <supermop> i think it needs to look like it has decks/levels andy
19:31:04  <Eddi|zuHause> you suck at making png screenshots
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19:50:01  <andythenorth>
19:50:10  <andythenorth> I like it more, and it references Horse a lot
19:50:26  <andythenorth> I might need to knock out the doors in the hull
19:50:55  <andythenorth> it shares the same base hull sprite as
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20:03:00  <Samu> the mp3 file was compressed from 16,7 MB (17.604.608 bytes) to 14,2 MB (14.910.279 bytes)
20:03:06  <Samu> impressive
20:10:28  <TrueBrain> the existance of mp3s? Yes
20:14:28  <LordAro> probably simpler to decrease the bitrate
20:14:59  <TrueBrain> simpler is taking a piss, tbh :)
20:15:31  <Gustavo6046> Samu, that is me
20:16:05  <Gustavo6046> TrueBrain, OGG if you really need intense compression
20:16:08  <andythenorth>
20:16:13  <andythenorth> oops
20:16:15  <andythenorth> same as last
20:16:16  <Gustavo6046> FLAC can also be easily compressed without destroying the audio quality.
20:16:20  <andythenorth>
20:19:21  <Gustavo6046> The best way to compress audio would be to divide it into chunks, do a weighted moving average on then and then interpolate them.
20:19:24  <Gustavo6046> And
20:19:51  <supermop> best way is listen to no recorded music, only live concerts
20:20:01  <Gustavo6046> for each of these chunks, we define a finer modulation map.
20:20:11  <Gustavo6046> supermop, I'm not talking about music
20:20:17  <Gustavo6046> I'm talking about digital audio in general
20:20:47  <TrueBrain> so white noise
20:20:49  <TrueBrain> brown noise
20:20:57  <TrueBrain> my sister crying
20:22:21  <andythenorth> why did you make your sister cry TrueBrain ?
20:22:22  <andythenorth> sounds mean
20:22:32  <TrueBrain> I made her read this chat
20:22:35  <TrueBrain> *owh snap*
20:23:53  <glx> it's not the worse subject in this chat :)
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20:34:58  <Eddi|zuHause> i found the reason why the website broke...
20:35:28  <Eddi|zuHause> <-- around 1:38:30 he announces "search for openttd", and a minute later "oh... we broke it :p"
20:35:45  <Eddi|zuHause> that was thursday evening
20:35:59  <glx> usual reason for the website to fall :)
20:36:15  <TrueBrain> sorry to disapoint, that was not "the reason" :P
20:38:19  <Eddi|zuHause> well, it's certainly plausible that when the biggest german youtuber says the name of a website in a stream which 20-40k people watch, that website might go down quickly :p
20:38:36  <TrueBrain> honestly, we had worse over the years
20:39:09  <TrueBrain> and both times around the time django stopped working, the traffic was not unusual
20:39:38  <TrueBrain> all I could find, that it blocked on an IO operation ...
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21:09:52  <Eddi|zuHause> looks like you need a watchdog to kill it if blocked
21:10:03  <TrueBrain> it happened now 3 times in 2 years ...
21:10:07  <TrueBrain> I mean ...
21:10:21  <TrueBrain> I rather have an upgrade to something non-django-1.2 than a watchdog :D
21:10:47  <Eddi|zuHause> i have no clue about that :p
21:11:18  <TrueBrain> is a good start ;)
21:11:34  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think i want to have a clue :p
21:13:54  <TrueBrain> and I guess that is part of the problem ;)
21:26:20  <frosch123> hmm, i don't like the inserters-compress-belts change
21:27:17  <LordAro> :o
21:27:53  <frosch123> there was this technique to put slightly faster belts in front of inserters which do the compresing
21:28:33  <frosch123> i considered that really smart
21:28:54  <frosch123> actually, it still looks better than the inserter stopping movement... so i'll keep doing it :)
21:33:01  <supermop> hmm i wonder why my highway doesn't use the bridge overlays i want it to
21:37:30  <supermop> oh
21:37:40  <supermop> ok i figured it out
21:38:09  <andythenorth> bye
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21:57:10  <supermop> is there no way to draw different road underlay or overlay for level crossings?
21:58:36  <supermop> oh its on the to-do
21:59:57  <frosch123> most level crossing stuff is already provided by the railtype
22:00:07  <frosch123> so, it's more a rail thing
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22:46:23  <supermop> frosch123: i wanted to add stripes before the crossing on some road types
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23:26:12  <Wolf01> supermop: sorry, had a party this evening :P
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23:55:35  <debdog> you should be too drunk to even type here then
23:56:33  <Wolf01> I don't drink

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