Log for #openttd on 26th May 2018:
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07:20:30  <andythenorth> o/
07:36:09  <peter1138> yo
07:36:32  <peter1138> TGP sucks for subtropic
07:37:41  <peter1138> But I'm going out on the bike now.
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07:40:07  <andythenorth> such raining
07:41:07  <andythenorth> I probably shouldn't do a troll release of Horse 2
07:41:13  <andythenorth> just 6 metro trains :P
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08:48:16  <Wolf01> o/
09:04:05  <andythenorth> hi Wolf01
09:04:05  <andythenorth> back of the Bugatti looks badass
09:04:12  * andythenorth not into cars, but eh
09:04:28  <Wolf01> I still hope it's not only aesthetics
09:04:53  <andythenorth> car mechanisms are boring though no?
09:05:10  <andythenorth> I doubt it has working brakes, the new parts look cosmetic not functional
09:05:46  <Wolf01> Yeah, but making a complex shift and hide it under layers of bricks it's not in the spirit of technic
09:06:55  <andythenorth> +1
09:11:35  <Wolf01> I modded the porsche to be able to take off the chassis and see what happens when you use the shift, and that's really cool because it resembles the old 853
09:11:55  <Wolf01> <- this one
09:13:50  <andythenorth> I had this one
09:14:03  <andythenorth> boxer engine
09:14:19  <Wolf01> Yeah, that too
09:22:16  <Wolf01> Meh, I have too many games on steam, a lot of categories...
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09:30:02  <Wolf01> Quak
09:31:26  <frosch123> moo
09:33:41  <Wolf01> \o/ finished to categorize the steam games... until the next bundle purchase
09:37:46  <Wolf01> Now... lego, I need to update the inventory :|
09:39:39  <andythenorth> peter1138 has swapped a pile of patches for a pile of branches :)
09:39:49  <Wolf01> :D
09:39:53  <andythenorth> we'll have to start saying "peter has a branch for that"
09:40:06  <Wolf01> At least they are now public
09:40:40  <Wolf01> Meh, fuck lego and the 50 shades of blue
09:41:11  <Wolf01> Is this medium blue or dark azure?
09:41:17  <Wolf01> Who knows
09:41:47  <andythenorth> who knows
09:41:51  <andythenorth> stick to red
09:41:56  <andythenorth> I redrew this
09:42:01  <andythenorth> to this eh
09:43:04  <Wolf01> They look more weathered... and smaller, less toy-ish
09:46:04  <andythenorth> 45% complete on horse 2
09:46:10  <andythenorth> eh look at all the PRs :)
09:47:21  <LordAro> someone should merge some of them
09:47:38  <Wolf01> Wow
09:49:59  <andythenorth> "Approved: Probably fine"
09:50:11  <nielsm> randumb idea, allow some of the earliest goods cars to be refitted for passengers, but they pay much less, except that 70 years after the car type's introduction they pay more than normal passengers (but are still limited in speed)
09:50:18  <nielsm> not sure if that's possible
09:50:41  <andythenorth> it's possible in newgrf
09:50:44  <andythenorth> why 70 years? o_O
09:51:13  <nielsm> just some random threshold
09:51:19  <nielsm> for when it's considered vintage
09:55:23  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd advise against putting passengers in goods cars.... for people willl  get the wrong ideas about it...
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10:07:20  <andythenorth> universal wagon
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11:39:29  <Wolf01> lolled too much
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13:03:33  <peter1138> LordAro, you riding tomorrow or is it gonna rain?
13:21:19  * andythenorth stops playing tanks
13:22:40  <LordAro> peter1138: i hope to be
13:23:23  <peter1138> Hmm, forecast here is now only a little bit of rain.
13:23:26  <Wolf01> Mmmh, train derails continuously always in the same spot
13:27:51  <peter1138> Grr, sticking spacebar :(
13:28:17  <peter1138> Guess I need to take it apart and wash everything.
13:33:45  <andythenorth> or you have a mac
13:33:48  <andythenorth> where it's now a feature
13:34:15  <andythenorth>
13:34:16  <andythenorth> "Pro"
13:34:53  <andythenorth> "If any keys are still unresponsive after you've followed these steps" then congrats on choosing Apple
13:35:38  <Wolf01> Lol
13:36:34  <andythenorth> mac keyboards used to be bulletproof
13:37:14  * andythenorth bbl
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16:08:20  <andythenorth> o/
16:23:32  <snail_UES_> hey guys, question about set planning
16:24:04  <snail_UES_> how would you prefer engines of different generations be treated? say a type of engine gets released, then after 10 years it gets slightly improved
16:24:23  <snail_UES_> would you rather have just one ID, with vehicles changing according to year of built
16:24:29  <snail_UES_> or separate IDs?
16:26:00  <nielsm> I think I prefer same ID, but it has to be "obvious" that it's a new generation of the vehicle imo
16:26:13  <andythenorth> different IDs
16:26:58  <nielsm> about -- autosave when getting disconnected from a network game
16:27:26  <nielsm> should autosave when getting disconnected because of an error, and because the server is restarting/shutting down, be considered separate cases for the configuration setting?
16:27:56  <andythenorth> snail_UES_: is 10 years an actual case, or just an example?
16:28:37  <snail_UES_> andythenorth: it’s just an example
16:29:00  <snail_UES_> a real case would be the Pacific steamers of my French set
16:29:07  <andythenorth>
16:29:11  <snail_UES_> they were introduced in ~1910
16:29:22  <andythenorth> Growler reappears as Slug and Phoenix later ^^
16:29:26  <snail_UES_> then a new version, greatly improved, got out in ~1923
16:29:30  <andythenorth> 30 year gap, different IDs
16:29:37  <snail_UES_> then an even better one came out in ~1934
16:29:51  <andythenorth> I wouldn't do 13 year gaps
16:29:54  <snail_UES_> I’m debating whether I should keep them in different IDs
16:29:55  <andythenorth> I'd consolidate
16:30:07  <snail_UES_> could be 1910, 1925 and 1935
16:30:08  <andythenorth> average the stats between two types
16:30:11  <snail_UES_> something like that
16:46:06  <peter1138> Well
16:46:16  <peter1138> You probably won't hit the ID limit.
16:47:18  <peter1138> nielsm, commit message style ;)
16:48:19  <nielsm> peter1138 where?
16:48:52  <peter1138> Oh, never mind, it's just still building :p
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16:49:31  <peter1138> Gotta say I'm confused as to why it's a gui setting.
16:49:55  <nielsm> it's not
16:50:12  <peter1138> It's in GUISettings.
16:50:15  <nielsm> oh
16:50:23  <nielsm> well it's a client-only setting
16:50:29  <peter1138> Yeah, I know, the other autosave one is too.
16:50:31  <peter1138> Mmm
16:50:57  <nielsm> "least inappropriate place"
16:52:49  <peter1138> Maybe :)
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17:04:32  <Eddi|zuHause> <snail_UES_> would you rather have just one ID, with vehicles changing according to year of built <-- separate IDs, otherwise people get problems with autoreplace
17:05:10  <Eddi|zuHause> that basically outweighs any benefits you might construct
17:05:31  <snail_UES_> Eddi|zuHause: yes, autoreplace was what I was thinking about… OTOH having fewer IDs keeps the purchase list cleaner
17:05:53  <Eddi|zuHause> handle the purchase list with "retire early" property
17:06:52  <snail_UES_> that’s not always going to be possible, but yeah
17:07:05  <peter1138> Feature request: purchase list variants.
17:07:19  <michi_cc> So, which MIDI PR to merge? #6787, #6779 or #6774?
17:07:56  <LordAro> select at random
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17:08:30  <michi_cc> LordAro: I'm biased I'm afraid.
17:08:41  <Eddi|zuHause> biased is the best random? :p
17:08:52  <peter1138> I like 6787
17:09:11  <LordAro> michi_cc: i did not specify a distribution
17:09:21  <peter1138> Are they all exclusive?
17:09:36  <michi_cc> TrueBrain: #6787 and #6774 should both fulfil your desire for no extra DirectMusic compile farm stuff.
17:09:37  <peter1138> Erm, I've lost my spacebar.
17:10:01  <LordAro> check the sofa
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17:10:05  <peter1138> 6774 is already closed?
17:10:12  <Eddi|zuHause> drank too much?
17:10:20  <michi_cc> peter1138: Yes. It should be obvious why #6774 is exclusive to the others, and #6779 fixes stuff that doesn't apply with 6787 anymore.
17:12:32  <Eddi|zuHause> "yesterday i came out of the bar stone-cold sober, and then some idiot stepped on my hands!"
17:12:55  <nielsm> the main argument I can think of _against_ #6787 would be "that's a damn huge chunk of code for some music"
17:13:07  <nielsm> but so is my own stuff
17:14:23  <nielsm> if you merge that I'll go and fix up #6775 too :)
17:14:47  <snail_UES_> peter1138: purchase list variants would actually be a cool feature :p
17:14:59  <peter1138> nielsm, hmm, still not saving on server shutdown
17:15:27  <snail_UES_> since my locomotives will come in different flavors (sharing the same ID)… you’ll buy it, and then you can cycle through the variants by refitting to passengers
17:15:38  <nielsm> peter1138 huh odd, I specifically tested that
17:15:40  <snail_UES_> it would be nice to be able to choose the variant upon purchasing
17:15:46  <peter1138> Oh no, not refitting!
17:15:58  <nielsm> bbl, food
17:16:16  <snail_UES_> could you suggest any better alternatives?
17:16:24  <peter1138> Purchase list variants feature ;)
17:16:31  <michi_cc> nielsm: The real argument against #6787 is: Hey, have new and exciting bugs! :p
17:16:53  <peter1138> Something openttd would need to implement but it would be usable.
17:17:32  <snail_UES_> peter1138: :D I would like to ask for it, but OTTD developers have the interesting habit of shooting down 99.9% of any new feature requests :p
17:17:43  <peter1138> snail_UES_, nobody requested it ;)
17:18:06  <peter1138> I like this one, it's simply a gui change, no actual change to any other logic.
17:18:34  <snail_UES_> honestly I would also love to have it. It would unbelievably simplify my life as a newGRF developer
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17:20:31  <andythenorth> snail_UES_: ctrl-click :P
17:20:42  <peter1138> andythenorth, stupid
17:20:53  <andythenorth> it's great
17:20:59  <snail_UES_> what do you mean by ctrl-click?
17:21:13  <andythenorth> I am proposing that ctrl-clicking a vehicle cycles through up to 16 variants
17:21:17  <andythenorth> in depot
17:21:32  <andythenorth> apparently the correct way is some extension of cargo subtypes :P
17:21:42  <andythenorth> despite that choosing menu items in ottd is horrible :P
17:21:51  <snail_UES_> yes, cargo subtypes is the way I’m handling it now
17:21:59  <andythenorth> cargo subtypes are appalling
17:22:13  <snail_UES_> you buy the engine, then refit it to “0 passengers” choosing a variant other than default
17:22:19  <andythenorth> ugh
17:22:21  <andythenorth> that's awful
17:22:24  <peter1138> Quite
17:22:28  <peter1138> That's why new feature
17:22:42  <snail_UES_> I agree it’s not great, but currently there’s no alternative
17:22:43  * andythenorth -> tanks
17:25:21  <peter1138> Hmm, wonder if we already have a suitable icon.
17:27:26  <snail_UES_> also, there should be a way in the code to figure out the engine’s current variant (I’m using userbits now)
17:27:40  <snail_UES_> coz some specs, attachment rules etc. would change according to the variants
17:27:48  <peter1138> no
17:28:01  <peter1138> because it's a separate engine id.
17:28:25  <snail_UES_> oh… so you mean to consolidate different engine IDs in the purchase list?
17:28:30  <peter1138> yes
17:28:37  <peter1138> with ability to select between them
17:28:45  <snail_UES_> I see your idea… that would be nice
17:28:53  <peter1138> no messing with refit
17:28:57  <snail_UES_> would make life even easier as you wouldn’t have to check for userbits
17:29:02  <peter1138> and you can use autoreplace to upgrade
17:29:53  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd like the "variants" to be detectable from the articulated callback, so i could have different amounts of articulated parts
17:30:17  <peter1138> if it's a different engine id, you can detect that, no?
17:30:26  <snail_UES_> if they were different IDs, you can detect anything
17:30:41  <snail_UES_> in principle they could even have a different number of articulated parts
17:31:21  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd also like a way to synchronize introduction dates
17:32:25  <peter1138> Hmm, separate but similar feature.
17:32:38  <snail_UES_> peter1138: so more than “purchase list variants”, this would be a way to group separate IDs in the purchase list
17:33:07  <snail_UES_> and it would require to add something to the GUI in order to do this
17:33:09  <peter1138> I was thinking of only showing one in the list, and then expand when you view it
17:33:12  <peter1138> Yeah
17:33:27  <snail_UES_> yeah, one that could be a placeholder
17:33:41  <peter1138> Well, it would be the 'first' one
17:34:17  <peter1138> OpenTTD can handle making the user aware of it. NewGRF-wise it's just a vehicle that is very similar.
17:34:29  <Eddi|zuHause> what if i want my groups to be "all express steam engines", "all freight steam engines", etc.?
17:35:03  <Eddi|zuHause> the purchase list entry would then maybe have to be a "virtual" vehicle
17:35:40  <peter1138> It's engine variants, not groups.
17:36:01  <Eddi|zuHause> semantics...
17:38:14  <andythenorth> oh yeah that was an idea
17:38:22  <andythenorth> multiple engine IDs, one menu option
17:38:24  <andythenorth> variants
17:38:43  <andythenorth> just use the + disclosure thing peter1138 ?
17:39:45  <peter1138> Maybe
17:40:11  <andythenorth> there needs to be some 'group' thing as well, just a value
17:40:14  <andythenorth> for reasons
17:40:31  <andythenorth> (action 0 prop)
17:41:37  <andythenorth> dword is enough :P
17:43:14  <snail_UES_> peter1138: my initial idea was to have engine variants sharing the same ID
17:43:35  <snail_UES_> since you’re proposing them not to share the same ID, this might as well be groups?
17:44:41  <Wolf01> Group them by name + variant extension
17:45:56  <peter1138> Grouping conflicts with sorting & filtering a bit.
17:47:10  <Wolf01> First filter, then group, then sort
17:52:08  <peter1138> Ok
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17:52:16  <peter1138> Sounds different to variants though. Hmm.
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17:56:50  <peter1138> Hmm
17:57:02  <peter1138> Is cross-NewGRF variant/grouping good/bad?
17:57:22  <snail_UES_> peter1138: I was thinking about it only for my vehicles...
17:57:32  <snail_UES_> cross-newGRF would mean we’d need to introduce standards
17:57:37  <snail_UES_> and this can be a can of worms :)
17:57:51  <peter1138> Indeed.
18:03:12  <andythenorth> imagine
18:03:16  <andythenorth> there would be some great forum threads
18:03:20  <andythenorth> "Groups schema"
18:03:26  <andythenorth> "New Groups schema"
18:03:35  <andythenorth> "Please tell me which groups schema is correct"
18:03:47  <andythenorth> and someone would rage quit
18:04:00  <andythenorth> peter1138: my intention would be that the group is on the vehicle name
18:04:17  <peter1138> For this reason, I'm using Engine IDs instead of labels. It's kinda arbitrary, but Engine IDs are already GRF-local.
18:04:19  <andythenorth> they would all share a common string, and could have additional substrings maybe?
18:04:25  <peter1138> Although...
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18:07:17  <peter1138> < that's the easy bit
18:07:23  <peter1138> 18:31 < Eddi|zuHause> i'd also like a way to synchronize introduction dates
18:07:34  <peter1138> Although I've not tested it.
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18:14:10  <andythenorth> I'll need to patch nml for groups eh? :P
18:15:56  <peter1138> Well
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18:20:11  <Eddi|zuHause> what does "NewVehicleAvailable(es)" do?
18:22:27  <peter1138> It introductes it :p
18:22:49  <Eddi|zuHause> btu does that spawn a separate prototype offer?
18:22:57  <Eddi|zuHause> *but
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18:26:23  <Eddi|zuHause> hey, i finally set my wallclock forward 1 hour!
18:29:45  <snail_UES_> peter1138: a set of variants (or “group”) should be created within a newGRF… using only internal IDs
18:29:53  <snail_UES_> otherwise it’s a mess
18:30:27  <snail_UES_> each set of variants could have a name, like a placeholder, and then each single variant would have the proper ID’s name
18:47:56  <andythenorth> what if you want substrings for names? o_O
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18:57:25  <Eddi|zuHause> you can handle substrings within nml, the game doesn't need to know about them
18:57:42  <Eddi|zuHause> (they must be static, though)
18:59:33  <andythenorth> how would that work?
18:59:57  <andythenorth> all vehicles in the group share the same name
19:04:30  <snail_UES_> andythenorth: no, because they’re different IDs
19:04:49  <andythenorth> well what's shown in the buy menu then? o_O
19:05:02  <andythenorth> there has to be a string for the group
19:05:11  <andythenorth> and making a new string for it is silly
19:08:47  <snail_UES_> it could either be a placeholder, or it could be the name of the 1st ID sharing that group
19:09:23  <snail_UES_> the newGRF developer would choose which IDs would share the same groups, and sort them accordingly...
19:09:47  <andythenorth> not if it's an action 0 prop ;)
19:09:53  <andythenorth> there's no way to specificy sort order
19:10:07  <snail_UES_> order by engine ID? after all it’s just a number
19:10:14  <andythenorth> seems reasonable
19:10:24  <snail_UES_> or a group could have “name” as a property
19:10:37  <andythenorth> groups table :P
19:10:44  <snail_UES_> a group could be, “Pacific type (Steam)”
19:10:47  <andythenorth> position = group ID :P
19:11:01  <snail_UES_> and each IDs could be: “Pacific livery A” … “Pacific livery B” etc
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19:38:37  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i don't know how peter1138 intended it, but it sounded like you define one vehicle as the "master", and all others as "share the same buy menu entry as $ID"
19:39:46  <Eddi|zuHause> i was suggesting that this "master" vehicle could somehow be a "virtual" one, i.e. one that only appears in the buy menu, but cannot be bought
19:42:23  <V453000> WOW, story: 1. on NUTS 0.7.8 I started adding cargoes for FIRS2 compatibility. 2. I realized that NUTS has 666 wagon classes and stopped midway through, finding it too much work. 3. I needed to make a new version of NUTS with some BRIX relation, 4. I got rid of the unfinished cargo support, 5. I did some things and released 0.7.9, 6. I made myself actually forget that I got rid of the unfinished cargo support and literally believed that I ca
19:42:37  <V453000> 7. I found out that I actually can
19:42:38  <V453000> :D
19:42:48  <snail_UES_> Eddi|zuHause: I like your idea
19:43:56  <snail_UES_> like putting a placeholder as the group definition, and then the GUI would allow you to choose which variant you’d actually buy
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22:10:30  <michi_cc> TrueBrain: I solved you MSVC ICU troubles:
22:10:48  <michi_cc> TrueBrain: It's likely not the solution you're expecting, but still... :)
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22:53:04  <glx> oh I like the idea michi_cc
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23:48:14  <Wolf01> 'night
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