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Log for #openttd on 2nd July 2018:
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09:40:01  <LordAro> are this real happen?
09:46:24  <andythenorth> this happen real
09:47:26  <LordAro> woah
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10:16:02  <peter1138> limitation disturbs me very sprites
10:16:06  <peter1138> goes it throw out limitation?
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10:32:20  <SpComb> 64bit gfx
10:33:49  <Rubidium> SpComb, I'd reject 64 bit gfx. Just use bitsets, way more flexible in the future ;)
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10:34:29  <reldred> Don't even play OpenTTD, just imagine all the trains in your head.
10:35:21  <SpComb> planetmaker: I just ran into Debian stretch no longer having mercurial-git available :(
10:36:47  <__ln__> Rubidium: did you receive my email?
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10:53:55  <andythenorth> reldred: that's how I do play OpenTTD
10:53:58  <andythenorth> not even trolling
10:54:20  <reldred> Just sit in a darkened room humming to yourself?
10:54:45  <andythenorth> again, very close to reality
10:54:53  <LordAro> humming the theme tune, of course
10:54:57  <reldred> :O
10:55:14  <reldred> BUBBBA DA BUP BUP BUP BUP BUP BUHHHHHHHHHH
10:55:55  <reldred> how do I remember that off the top of my head but not my dads birthday?
10:57:01  <LordAro> one of them is important to you
10:57:08  <reldred> ahahahahaha
10:57:10  <reldred> fuck
10:58:08  <LordAro> alternatively, one of them had a significant impact on your life
10:58:18  <LordAro> (i'm sure your dad is lovely)
10:59:38  <__ln__> TrueBrain: did you receive my email?
11:00:30  <Rubidium> __ln__: if you're talking about openttd.org mail, then I have no clue. I haven't looked at that for years
11:01:46  <__ln__> okay
11:02:01  <__ln__> that's what i am talking about, yes
11:04:16  <__ln__> do you know whether anyone else reads their openttd.org mailbox?
11:04:27  <__ln__> just curious.
11:05:37  <Rubidium> I have no clue
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11:28:02  <andythenorth> still looking for translation manager __ln__? o_O
11:28:10  <andythenorth> doesn't look at all frustrating :P
11:29:13  <__ln__> andythenorth: oh yes. no reply at all. i've since re-sent my email to mr. TrueBrain and later to mr. Rubidium, and still no answer.
11:29:49  <andythenorth> lawks
11:30:20  <LordAro> good ol bus factor
11:30:44  <__ln__> i guess the next step is to re-send to everyone listed on the contact page.
11:30:55  <__ln__> then snail mail.
11:31:31  <LordAro> most people would just create a new account :p
11:32:37  <__ln__> LordAro: can i create a new webtranslator account without contacting the translations manager by email?
11:33:13  <LordAro> well people are still managing to translate things, so i'd guess so
11:33:54  <__ln__> please tell me how, as the instructions suggest the opposite: https://translator.openttd.org/
11:34:45  <LordAro> fair
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13:34:35  <Guest61> I guess I should login to the translation one and reply to all which sent something there...
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14:24:28  <CrazyJoey> good morning
14:28:43  <Arveen> good half past 4 pm :P
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14:33:17  <CrazyJoey> lol
14:33:28  <CrazyJoey> I have a question about OpenTTD
14:33:53  <CrazyJoey> Are the SAVE games interchangeable between platforms? Like taking a save file from a Windows installation and using it on a Linux installation?
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14:35:21  <nielsm> yes
14:35:21  <Rubidium> yes, but only to the same or higher version of OpenTTD
14:36:04  <nielsm> and there is also full support for cross-play multiplayer between all supported platforms
14:36:12  <nielsm> as long as everyone is running the same version number
14:39:07  <nielsm> and in fact, you can even import save games from the original games from 1994-1995
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14:46:20  <CrazyJoey> oh, okay thank you
14:46:47  <dihedral> nielsm, cross platform? :-P
14:50:01  * planetm crosses a platform
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15:07:43  <Eddi|zuHause> don't cross the platforms!!
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15:08:58  <Markk> Hai, what happened with the +b *@*!* on the 29th of June? :o
15:10:17  <planetm> it was a rogue incident affecting the whole network.
15:13:39  <nielsm> dihedral, because some console manufacturers and news sites are using "cross-play" as a marketing term now
15:13:40  <nielsm> afaik
15:14:16  <nielsm> it's sad that people think it's so unusual that they have to ask for it and it can be marketed as a feature
15:14:33  <nielsm> when it should be the assumption that all platforms are compatible
15:15:09  <nielsm> because it's never technical reasons nowadays, only corporate-political
15:15:15  <dihedral> nielsm, well that is the point, they are not until you put in some effort
15:17:00  <nielsm> back when the dos and amiga versions of a game were totally incompatible because both were written from scratch in assembly, yeah I would expect them to be incompatible
15:17:39  <nielsm> today when games are developed inside engines that are already cross platform and share almost all assets, if multiplayer isn't compatible it's either because the developers are massively incompetent, or because a CEO decreed it be so
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15:37:11  <Markk> planetm: Ah, I see, thanks for the explaination :)
15:40:54  <Markk> planetm: Read on the oftc website now, interesting attack, seems quite pointless though...
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15:57:47  <nielsm> WHOOAH! https://0x0.st/spyc.png
15:57:54  <nielsm> maybe because I requested it via GS :P
15:59:06  <andythenorth> o_O
15:59:17  <andythenorth> ok so now I need to do FIRS 4 eh?
15:59:54  <nielsm> I haven't made a way to have GS and newgrf inddustries talk (yet)
16:01:48  <nielsm> hm okay if you do both percentwise changes and double/halve/step changes to the same industries, production rates end up wrong
16:02:07  <nielsm> pretty much have to follow the chosen smooth_economy setting
16:03:37  <nielsm> guess it makes sense since old-style production rates are tracked by one variable, while smooth-style production rates are tracked via one per cargo
16:03:46  <andythenorth> I wonder if we should burn with fire
16:04:02  <andythenorth> copying the current economy crap into GS API just makes everything worse
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16:04:40  <andythenorth> ;)
16:05:32  <nielsm> could maybe try scrapping the Industry::prod_level variable and just have the changes be done to the Industry::production_rate[] values instead
16:06:13  <nielsm> instead of converting prod_level to production_rate every time prod_level is changed
16:08:17  <nielsm> however it would mean that an industry that halves production a bunch of times and then doubles it back up the same number of times might end up with a different production rate than it started out with
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16:11:55  <nielsm> could track prod_level for all cargoes produced instead of a single shared level, and approximate its value back when doing a smooth change
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16:42:48  <Alberth> o/
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16:53:56  <Wolf01> o/
16:53:59  <Alberth> o/
16:55:07  <planetmaker_> \o
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17:14:44  <andythenorth> o/
17:15:19  <Alberth> hi hi
17:17:39  <andythenorth> so did we solve nml? o_O
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17:31:52  <Karn> hi
17:32:45  <Karn> why is flipping of train units disabled unless NewGRF enables it?
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17:39:56  <nielsm> andythenorth I've wondered about FIRS, could (just) the various "tools" cargos use the stockpile mechanic instead of the "requires monthly delivery" mechanic? so I could e.g. make do with delivering one huge load of farm tools once a year, instead of lots of little loads
17:40:37  <andythenorth> it could
17:40:43  <andythenorth> it just would be pointless
17:41:15  <andythenorth> it's not hard if you want to patch it and test it
17:41:22  <andythenorth> there are at least 3 FIRS forks already
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17:44:53  <andythenorth> Karn: https://bugs.openttd.org/task/4462
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17:49:30  <Alberth> you might have solved nml, I still have to start, after implementing the macro expansion thingie
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18:00:42  <Karn> andythenorth: this was fixed in 2013 https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/commit/4d2a9e384ccb83eec9992ad36459f495bfcfe60f#diff-ca81f8f0e3e04cb86115aa1ca01fff69
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18:07:57  <Karn> 2011*
18:09:35  <andythenorth> what happens if you disable the check?
18:09:50  <andythenorth> with newgrf vehicles < 8/8
18:16:16  <TrueBrain> __ln__: I received your email; as did the mailbox in charge of helping you. Not much more I can do for you. So I just took your CC to me as frustration. I am not in charge of translations. Other people in this channel are.
18:16:51  <TrueBrain> sending me more or less emails does not speed up or slow down the process at all
18:17:06  <TrueBrain> (just in case anyone was thinking I do everything; I do not :) )
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18:18:15  <LordAro> i feel everyone is getting in a loop of pointing at everyone else
18:18:18  <TrueBrain> welcome back DorpsGek
18:18:24  <LordAro> certainly no one's ever said *who* is supposed to look at it
18:18:25  <TrueBrain> LordAro: I always pointed to a single mailbox
18:18:32  <TrueBrain> I dont see how there ever could be any confusion about that
18:18:33  <TrueBrain> ever
18:18:35  <TrueBrain> at any point
18:18:47  <LordAro> yeah, but who reads (and then acts on) that?
18:19:08  <andythenorth> no-one? o_O
18:19:13  <TrueBrain> LordAro: I wonder how it is important :)
18:19:24  <LordAro> well if no one reads/acts on it...
18:19:26  <andythenorth> how else to get a translation account?
18:19:33  <TrueBrain> it in general helps to not know who, as otherwise people tend to send those people directly, and if the torch is passed on, things go wrong :)
18:19:35  <__ln__> TrueBrain: I see. But as you remember, I did try finding out who is charge of translations, and only contacted you after 10 days of silence. And I contacted you because the Contact page lists you as "WT3 Developer", not to frustrate you.
18:19:50  <TrueBrain> LordAro: so as long as that email account is mailed, things should be handled :) If not, info@ is the address :)
18:20:22  <TrueBrain> __ln__: I am? Damn, let me fix that immediatly ..
18:20:31  <LordAro> "should be" is not "are"
18:20:43  <TrueBrain> LordAro: but naming a person doesn't help the situation :)
18:20:53  <LordAro> publicly, sure
18:20:54  <TrueBrain> at best that person gets emailed .. and he says: no, I passed it on to *insert next person*
18:21:25  <TrueBrain> but in general 2 people are "in charge" of both info@ and translator@
18:21:36  <TrueBrain> and they "should" be passing the torch if they no longer do
18:21:49  <TrueBrain> if not, there will be some internal spanking :)
18:22:22  <TrueBrain> __ln__: either way, openttd.org hasnt been running WT3 for months now
18:22:34  <TrueBrain> and just because you develop something, doesnt mean you grant people access etc ;)
18:22:43  <TrueBrain> you don't call Microsoft to get your AD account unlocked :D
18:22:52  <TrueBrain> (although hilarous)
18:23:14  <LordAro> well you say that...
18:23:35  <TrueBrain> haha, I want recordings of that :D
18:23:48  <TrueBrain> reminds me of that guy that called NSA because he deleted an email by accident, and asked for their backup :P
18:24:33  <TrueBrain> okay, next cache-invalidation I am no longer WT3 developer \o/ :D
18:24:53  <Karn> andythenorth: then there needs to be reversed direction in UpdateDeltaXY() according to reverse flag and seems there is bug in GUI(S) with misalignment. It looks alright on the map
18:25:21  <andythenorth> the bug is in depot?
18:25:30  <Karn> in depot gui
18:25:33  <__ln__> TrueBrain: Still, WT3 was the closest real human name match to translations on the contact page.
18:25:35  <TrueBrain> either way, don't forget this project runs on volunteers, and people take holidays etc .. its summer :)
18:25:45  <andythenorth> the depot gui could probably be fixed, I don't know
18:25:47  <andythenorth> not my area
18:25:50  <TrueBrain> people are so obsessed by "real person" .. maybe the AI just broke ..
18:25:52  <andythenorth> I fix the issue in newgrf
18:25:58  <TrueBrain> LordAro: how is the mediawiki docker going?
18:27:29  <LordAro> TrueBrain: oh yeah, that was a thing that i was doing
18:27:36  <TrueBrain> lol
18:27:47  <LordAro> i've not been on linux for a while
18:27:59  <TrueBrain> use Windows! :P
18:28:06  <TrueBrain> Windows subsystem works fine .. if you have a docker slave :P
18:28:12  <__ln__> TrueBrain: I would be fine communicating with an AI if it actually replied something to me.
18:29:19  <planetmaker_> __ln__, let me see what I can do for you... it's a long time... gotta find login :D
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18:29:50  <__ln__> planetmaker_: thanks
18:29:54  <TrueBrain> next planetmaker_ finds 1000 requests pending :P
18:30:27  <andythenorth> all the translation commits we could have had
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18:30:50  <planetmaker_> TrueBrain, oh, for sure :)
18:31:09  <TrueBrain> planetmaker_: you might want to check if you are not the only one doing that work .. ;)
18:31:48  <planetmaker_> TrueBrain, basically I do know the answer to "who is doing that work": me. And frosch. Both of us very occasionally, I recon
18:32:01  <TrueBrain> planetmaker_: recruit others! :P
18:32:28  <TrueBrain> planetmaker_: I can see who logs in to the mailbox etc :P But I am not throwing anyone under any bus :) We are all busy enough :)
18:33:46  <TrueBrain> right .. lets find out if gitlab ci/cd is any good ..
18:33:49  <planetmaker_> log into the mailbox... my mailprogramme knows the credentials. Doesn't mean I always read it :D
18:34:04  <TrueBrain> fair point :P
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18:35:15  <andythenorth> when is the bus coming btw?
18:35:20  <andythenorth> in case we need to throw anyone under it
18:35:31  <TrueBrain> :D You might be surprised what the bus-factor is btw for OpenTTD :)
18:35:35  <andythenorth> also are bus problems similar to trolley problems?
18:35:40  <TrueBrain> even a nuke on the Netherlands doesnt do it :P
18:35:48  <andythenorth> can we test that?
18:35:56  <TrueBrain> please don't
18:36:00  <TrueBrain> I just got my grass green
18:36:06  <planetmaker_> __ln__, have fun. It's the "ln" login
18:36:30  <planetmaker_> I can skip writing an e-mail now, I assume? :D
18:36:44  <TrueBrain> I like gitlab ci/cd .. it already has a language to write things in that is not as disasterous as Jenkinsfiles ..
18:36:52  <TrueBrain> planetmaker_: papertrail? :)
18:37:04  <LordAro> TrueBrain: what are you trying out?
18:37:22  <TrueBrain> LordAro: I want a CD for OpenTTD, and I was wondering how
18:37:44  <TrueBrain> (both for OpenTTD itself, but also for stuff like the CI dockers, release dockers, and also possibly for website, mediawiki, etc)
18:37:51  <andythenorth> nml :P
18:38:03  <LordAro> so are we moving from github to gitlab? :p
18:38:25  <TrueBrain> I don't see any reason for that
18:38:31  <TrueBrain> but their CI/CD seems to do what I expect
18:38:36  <__ln__> planetmaker_: thank you very much. yes, i don't require an email reply anymore as TrueBrain has confirmed the openttd.org email reception at least works :D
18:38:52  <planetmaker_> bah, papertrail :D
18:39:06  <TrueBrain> lazzzyyyyy
18:39:11  <planetmaker_> TrueBrain, how do I convert a hg repo to git?
18:39:18  <TrueBrain> hg2git? I have no clue :)
18:39:24  <TrueBrain> google.com :)
18:39:31  <planetmaker_> :P *kick*
18:39:39  <TrueBrain> I am not your altar :D
18:39:47  <TrueBrain> (and I really dont know)
18:39:48  <LordAro> TrueBrain: well, gitlab CI usually goes with gitlab :)
18:39:50  <planetmaker_> but my dictionary and google-foo :P
18:39:58  <andythenorth> I did it
18:40:12  <andythenorth> https://github.com/andythenorth/nml-andythenorth
18:40:15  <planetmaker_> he :D
18:40:17  <andythenorth> probably just imported it to github
18:40:18  <TrueBrain> LordAro: not much I can fix about that currently :)
18:40:19  <andythenorth> dunno
18:40:27  <andythenorth> afk 5 mins
18:40:55  <planetmaker_> I just wonder about such wonderful details as preserving identities etc. And: I want to know how it works, and not have a ready-made result :P
18:41:26  <TrueBrain> others have solved this for you for sure :)
18:41:46  <planetmaker_> And I was hoping s/o could guide me to it and past the pitfalls ;)
18:42:14  <TrueBrain> it seems, which comes as a total shock to everyone in this channel, that andythenorth is your friend :D
18:42:33  <Alberth> :)
18:42:44  <TrueBrain> the day that andythenorth become the hg/git expert :D
18:42:47  <TrueBrain> *runs*
18:42:52  <planetmaker_> hihi :)
18:43:09  <TrueBrain> Using GitLab CI/CD pipelines with GitHub repositories
18:43:11  <TrueBrain> that sounds promising
18:43:27  <LordAro> that does
18:43:46  <TrueBrain> they just sync the git into gitlab :D
18:43:48  <TrueBrain> lolz
18:44:11  <planetmaker_> fair enough, I guess
18:45:00  <andythenorth> I just imported it :P
18:45:07  <andythenorth> users I didn't worry about
18:45:53  <Wolf01> <andythenorth> I did it <- with full history?
18:46:03  <andythenorth> https://github.com/andythenorth/nml-andythenorth/commits/master
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18:46:10  <andythenorth> seems so
18:46:26  <Wolf01> Nice :D
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18:47:43  <planetmaker_> andythenorth, so, how do I go and convert a/the repo?
18:48:07  <planetmaker_> There's more than just NML :P
18:48:26  <planetmaker_> something with git fast-import or so, I guess
18:48:31  <andythenorth> https://github.com/new/import
18:48:45  <andythenorth> but some ought to be transferred to openttd account imho
18:48:55  <planetmaker_> oh... that easy
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18:49:04  <andythenorth> yes :)
18:49:18  <andythenorth> if we can leave issues on devzone for now
18:49:32  <andythenorth> we can either automate importing them, or manually copy to GH, or leave them in redmine
18:49:36  <planetmaker_> ok, easy enough so that I can create a git clone and play around with it and building stuff
18:49:41  <andythenorth> yes
18:50:02  <planetmaker_> And I'd switch the official one to github when things work there
18:50:05  <andythenorth> yes
18:50:39  <planetmaker_> hm, I don't have permission to import a repo to OpenTTD :|
18:50:44  <planetmaker_> TrueBrain, ^^ :D
18:50:47  <TrueBrain> no, of course you don't
18:50:53  <planetmaker_> why?
18:50:55  <TrueBrain> we are not randomly going to important stuff in the OpenTTD organization :)
18:51:06  <TrueBrain> normally we first talk about that :P
18:51:09  <andythenorth> we can transfer a repo to the org later?
18:51:15  <TrueBrain> yup
18:51:20  <TrueBrain> especially if you are testing stuff
18:51:22  <planetmaker_> haha, sure :) I was not going to import anything there now
18:51:24  <TrueBrain> just do it via your own account :)
18:51:26  <planetmaker_> But I couldn't ;)
18:51:47  <TrueBrain> Security always start with restrictions :)
18:52:01  <TrueBrain> the anyone-can-do-anything failed with wikis :P
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18:53:45  <andythenorth> I had a dream of an open friendly internet :P
18:54:01  <andythenorth> I remember unauthed community boards
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18:57:34  <planetmaker_> quak
18:58:17  <TrueBrain> *slaps the duck till it stops moving*
18:59:07  <TrueBrain> okay, gitlab ci/cd looks promising; has everything I would like .. now the question ofc is, does it integrate ..
19:00:44  <frosch123> hoi
19:00:52  <frosch123> planetmaker_: i have no idea about translations@
19:02:03  <planetmaker_> hm, so *only* I have an idea about translations?
19:02:16  <TrueBrain> oh-oh
19:04:19  <TrueBrain> lol .. gitlab docker image just runs chef on itself :D
19:04:21  <TrueBrain> smart :)
19:06:10  <__ln__> question: if horizontal mouse wheel scrolling did some in the game, what should it do? currently it doesn't seem to do anything.
19:06:16  <andythenorth> uh oh
19:06:20  <andythenorth> bus factor alarm
19:07:30  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: not really; at least 2 other people know how to do it :)
19:07:40  <TrueBrain> bus factor is more that nobody COULD do it
19:07:41  <TrueBrain> :)
19:10:44  <TrueBrain> bah, the self-hosted gitlab cannot use github :(
19:10:47  <TrueBrain> at least, the CE
19:12:52  <andythenorth> :P
19:13:00  <TrueBrain> ah, the EE should
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19:14:56  <TrueBrain> does require relicensing every year in a manual process
19:15:24  <TrueBrain> *sad panda*
19:17:56  <frosch123> planetmaker_: https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pu7chmicp <- when extrapolation ottd to coop, i get about that
19:19:21  <frosch123> we just need a coop version of a "dorpsgek" user
19:19:29  <TrueBrain> we can share!
19:19:54  <frosch123> dorpsgek wants to join coop? :)
19:20:13  <TrueBrain> its just a bot!
19:20:47  <frosch123> planetmaker_: is there anything like a info@o.o which is used to register these things?
19:21:07  <frosch123> my zoo of email boxes has no @o.o :)
19:21:12  <TrueBrain> (no clue what you are after exactly, as that pastebin is vague, but just so you know, DorpsGek as bot can be shared :P)
19:22:10  <frosch123> eliminate redmine and rhodecode from coop
19:22:16  <TrueBrain> :o
19:22:19  <TrueBrain> you go girls!
19:22:22  <frosch123> the two components which cause the most trouble
19:22:29  <TrueBrain> so you are going to gitlab.org right? :P
19:22:45  <frosch123> i don't think there was any discussion or agreement
19:23:01  <TrueBrain> I am joking .. at least, I hope it is a joke :P
19:23:10  <TrueBrain> would suck to have parts on gitlab, other parts on github, or what-ever :D
19:23:11  <frosch123> but different people said similar things at different points in time
19:23:29  <TrueBrain> so I hope you move it all to github :)
19:23:32  <frosch123> ah, the lab/hub thing? i never look too close to notice
19:23:39  <TrueBrain> :D
19:23:46  <frosch123> it's like simutrans and simuscape
19:24:01  <frosch123> took me years to distinguish
19:24:03  <TrueBrain> but yeah, if they move to GitHub, we can integrate it too with our fancy tools (at least .. if they get finished :P)
19:24:14  <TrueBrain> one more day of work, than I have all the time in the world :D
19:24:22  <TrueBrain> still have to make a priority list ..
19:24:31  <andythenorth> I am happy to move any of my projects to GH as guinea pig
19:24:56  <andythenorth> TrueBrain: easy: 1) get nightly builds back 2) NRT merge 3) profit, lie on green lawn
19:25:27  <andythenorth> 4) apply for my systems engineer job, work part time :P
19:26:25  <Wolf01> Mmmh I'm tempted to do that
19:26:25  <TrueBrain> sadly, the list is a bit longer ...
19:26:47  <andythenorth> my list is 'shoot tanks' :)
19:26:49  <andythenorth> then work
19:26:51  <andythenorth> then TTD
19:27:14  <Alberth> then sleep, and repeat :p
19:32:01  <TrueBrain> right .. googled a tool to help organize the work I want to do a bit ...
19:32:06  <TrueBrain> found a tool that claims to be UX friendl
19:32:12  <TrueBrain> totally gets lost in the tool
19:32:26  <andythenorth> most development is just googling
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19:34:33  <Donald_J_Trump> l
19:34:44  *** Donald_J_Trump has left #openttd
19:34:51  <TrueBrain> yeah, I you too
19:34:58  <glx> hmm to ban or not to ban
19:35:24  <TrueBrain> already gone
19:35:26  <TrueBrain> so meh
19:41:59  <__ln__> you don't think it was the real potus?
19:42:12  <TrueBrain> owh, I so hope so
19:42:54  <Wolf01> Of course it was the real potus, how many Donald J Trump do you know?
19:44:38  <planetmaker_> frosch123, not exactly sure what you mean with the paste :)
19:44:51  <planetmaker_> yes, we probably should move all the repos piecewise to github
19:45:23  <planetmaker_> do we all want them under the openttdcoop account? Or should some be under OpenTTD account (like grfcodec, nml, maybe OpenGFX)?
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19:45:42  <planetmaker_> IMHO it would be the right thing to have those three under OpenTTD rule
19:45:48  <TrueBrain> I would love if some go to the OpenTTD space
19:45:50  <frosch123> planetmaker_: we should only move those repos which we maintain
19:46:10  <TrueBrain> especially NML would be nice to have under the OpenTTD umbrella
19:46:11  <frosch123> people will be upset if we move random newgrf projects
19:46:24  <frosch123> planetmaker_: also, it should be a single coop organisation with multiple projects
19:46:25  <planetmaker_> oh, it's not "random newgrf projects"
19:46:26  <andythenorth> nml is my biggest priority
19:46:35  <andythenorth> as any change to newgrf is a change to nml
19:47:07  <planetmaker_> it's the three important things to have OpenTTD run when you have nothing: base graphics. And grfcodec to build the grfs. And NML as its compiler for add-ons
19:47:19  <frosch123> TrueBrain: awh, i thought we could silently drop grfcodec/renum and noone would notice
19:47:30  <planetmaker_> the rest I'd all keep under openttdcoop
19:47:37  <TrueBrain> that is why I mention NML; not the other two .. euh ... weirdos :P
19:47:40  <planetmaker_> I created the openttdcoop group already on github the other day
19:47:51  <andythenorth> there is a ticket with proof-of-concept grf -> nml
19:47:56  <andythenorth> I found it recently
19:47:58  <frosch123> TrueBrain: still, opengfx, opensfx, openmsx, zbase, ... where to draw the line?
19:48:04  <frosch123> opengfx+rv...
19:48:19  <TrueBrain> first 3 I think should also be of OpenTTD
19:48:22  <planetmaker_> the line is at the absolute essentials. Which is those three
19:48:27  <TrueBrain> they are officially published as such too
19:48:33  <TrueBrain> zbase ... no clue
19:48:33  <planetmaker_> the rest is "nice, but private fun"
19:49:20  <planetmaker_> the line is also exactly where we draw it
19:49:51  <TrueBrain> frosch123: but, moving projects between organizations is easy
19:50:00  <planetmaker_> it is. That's nowhere any issue
19:50:02  <TrueBrain> so in the end, moving to GH is priority
19:50:21  <planetmaker_> yet it's something we should IMHO discuss or ponder about at this stage.
19:50:43  <TrueBrain> planetmaker_: as long as it is a short discussion; not one of weeks :)
19:50:49  <andythenorth> I would have moved already, except bundles provides the online docs
19:50:59  <andythenorth> http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/get_started.html
19:51:11  <andythenorth> I could maybe move them to GH pages or something
19:51:13  <TrueBrain> be agile! Actions! :D
19:51:19  <planetmaker_> bundles... doesn't github provide artifacts storage?
19:52:17  <Cthulhux> people still use github?
19:52:58  <TrueBrain> hmm .. I try to create an account at Trello, but ... I get some funky weird errors :(
19:53:34  <planetmaker_> frosch123, but back to the real questions: yes info@o.o is the address usually used to register stuff.
19:53:42  <andythenorth> GH supports some sort of release artefacts
19:53:43  <andythenorth> https://github.com/twbs/bootstrap/releases
19:53:52  <TrueBrain> Cannot send email; check if the list is correct .. lolz ...
19:54:27  <TrueBrain> what might help, I am working towards an auto-deploy thingy for OpenTTD, for stuff like AI API Docs, but also the main website, etc
19:54:38  <TrueBrain> where a website is populated from a git 'build' result
19:54:45  <TrueBrain> (so an artifact, but published)
19:54:49  <frosch123> TrueBrain: planetmaker_: https://paste.openttdcoop.org/p5lquxty0 <- other lines?
19:55:17  <TrueBrain> osie?
19:55:25  <andythenorth> TrueBrain: would that require the website to be in vcs, or as the result of a compile?
19:55:29  <planetmaker_> <3 osie :)
19:55:33  <andythenorth> mine are the result of a compile :P
19:55:36  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: both
19:55:47  <TrueBrain> the source of the website should be in git
19:55:50  <planetmaker_> TrueBrain, OpenTTD Screenshot information explorer
19:55:53  <TrueBrain> the result should be from an artifact
19:55:58  <TrueBrain> planetmaker_: lol :D
19:56:06  <planetmaker_> it's mostly a debugging tool
19:56:25  <planetmaker_> giving you the list of used NewGRFs and OpenTTD version info from screenshots
19:56:29  <frosch123> TrueBrain: osie is in svn/extra
19:56:37  <frosch123> extracts information from ottd screenshots
19:56:46  <andythenorth> TrueBrain: works for me
19:57:02  <andythenorth> I also want to teach nml to produce docs by default from newgrfs
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19:57:12  <planetmaker_> frosch123, yes, as far as I see, that works
19:57:14  <frosch123> hmm, i should put osie on the bananas2 feature list
19:57:57  <planetmaker_> frosch123, yet... you mentioned sth different... want to move away from grfcodec for base grfs / openttd.grf?
19:58:14  <andythenorth> could I just publish my newrgf docs directly on new bananas? o_O
19:58:24  <planetmaker_> then we can skip that... and what is "new bananas"? :D
19:58:30  <frosch123> planetmaker_: i would like to have grfcodec in a "does not require maintenance" state
19:58:34  <frosch123> essentially "ditch renum"
19:58:50  <frosch123> grfcodec should not be affected by nfo additions
19:59:05  <planetmaker_> ok... I fail to see how that could work :)
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19:59:35  <andythenorth> grfcodec is quite agnostic about what you feed it
19:59:42  <andythenorth> so it needed no patching for NRT for example
19:59:55  <planetmaker_> hm... yes... but it then starts complaining :D
20:00:00  <andythenorth> whereas renum breaks if you blink at the wrong time
20:00:02  <frosch123> planetmaker_: https://github.com/frosch123/bananas2/tree/master/docs <- locally i have some more stuff than pushed
20:00:33  <frosch123> planetmaker_: openttd build only requires renum to compute the number of sprites in sprite 0
20:00:37  <andythenorth> much nice talk, but which newgrf shall I move to github? o_O
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20:00:45  <andythenorth> FIRS needs rekt anyway
20:00:49  <frosch123> everything else is just renum checking ottd to meet it's own spec
20:01:04  <frosch123> andythenorth: disable eints, move what you like
20:01:22  <frosch123> people can live without nightlies for month, they can also live without translation updates for months
20:01:33  <andythenorth> also it's not a lot of change currently
20:01:35  <frosch123> there are plenty of tools to migrate redmine issues to github btw
20:01:42  <andythenorth> https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository
20:01:48  <andythenorth> worth knowing
20:01:58  <andythenorth> for all my issues :) https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/issues
20:02:11  <frosch123> andythenorth: buildserver can likely easily pull from github
20:02:16  <planetmaker_> I'm a bit scared about the build service migration... but I guess that's something which can work, too - despite the quite custom toolchain
20:02:21  <frosch123> so bundles would stay as it is
20:02:27  <andythenorth> good answer
20:02:32  <andythenorth> hmm 815 closed issues :P
20:02:35  <andythenorth> I am quite ruthless eh
20:03:15  <frosch123> ah, right, redmine shares issue numbers over all projects, so i guess noone wants to sync the issue numbers with gh
20:03:39  <planetmaker_> yeah... it does for some obscure reason
20:03:51  <frosch123> you can move issues between projects )
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20:04:02  <planetmaker_> otoh it doesn't hurt to keep the numbers... they're just numbers after all
20:04:40  <frosch123> yes, but having 8k dummy tasks is kind of too silly
20:04:45  <planetmaker_> :)
20:05:01  <frosch123> and for nml, i never looked up old issues like for ottd
20:05:15  <andythenorth> redmine shared issues is winning btw :)
20:05:23  <andythenorth> it's the main reason we switched to redmine at work
20:06:40  <planetmaker_> oh, I do lookup old issues... but I don't need the numbers tbh
20:07:17  <frosch123> well, i mean the references from the commit message
20:07:33  <frosch123> unless you want to migrate them on import :p
20:07:41  <frosch123> sounds tmwftlb
20:09:23  <andythenorth> TMWFTLB
20:10:22  <LordAro> i like how tmwftlb is exclusively an ottd acronym
20:10:37  <LordAro> the first 3 non-definition results are ottd related :)
20:11:51  <frosch123> sounds weird to me
20:12:02  <frosch123> but es, i get the same results
20:12:20  <frosch123> either google knows me, or the other users had contact with us :p
20:12:54  <frosch123> duckduck also has a lot of ottd
20:13:05  <TrueBrain> https://trello.com/b/6j90aRB1/openttd
20:13:21  <TrueBrain> still adding things to the list, as I keep forgetting stuff
20:13:23  <TrueBrain> no priority
20:13:45  <frosch123> "CD"?
20:14:08  <TrueBrain> click on it
20:14:12  <andythenorth> oh a trello :o
20:14:56  <frosch123> let's call it "custom deployment" :p
20:15:10  <TrueBrain> why?
20:15:16  <frosch123> maybe "continuous"?
20:15:42  <TrueBrain> happy? :)
20:15:49  <frosch123> :)
20:15:57  <frosch123> "CI" i knew :)
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20:16:56  <TrueBrain> anything I am missing?
20:16:59  <TrueBrain> or any requests?
20:17:22  <frosch123> import catcodec/musa/osie from svn/extra
20:17:42  <frosch123> probably msu as well
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20:18:30  <TrueBrain> having those on CD would be awesome
20:18:31  <TrueBrain> but a lot of work
20:19:05  <frosch123> msu is quite special, the other ones are pretty constant
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20:19:25  <frosch123> i read "new wiki" has status "outsourced"?
20:19:46  <TrueBrain> I read "on hold" :P
20:20:01  * LordAro whistles
20:21:10  <frosch123> TrueBrain: "some solution for uploading crash.dmp"
20:21:16  <TrueBrain> we have a solution for that
20:21:19  <TrueBrain> but having a better would be good :D
20:21:28  <LordAro> "add .txt extension" ?
20:21:48  <TrueBrain> no, we have some scripts that automate analyzing them
20:21:59  <TrueBrain> it copies them to a windows VM, runs some stuff on it, and reports back
20:22:06  <TrueBrain> but it is old and rusty
20:23:04  <TrueBrain> frosch123: possibly we also want a place people can upload their crash dumps btw
20:23:53  <TrueBrain> I dont really like Trello .. but okay, it works for this :P
20:24:07  <TrueBrain> anything else? taking requests?
20:24:11  <frosch123> V is a trello fanboy iirc
20:24:29  <frosch123> TrueBrain: does "pr workflow" include more weird bots?
20:24:35  <TrueBrain> weird?
20:24:42  <frosch123> well, "magic" :)
20:25:02  <TrueBrain> the bot will be on GH
20:25:08  <TrueBrain> so depends on your definition of "magic"
20:25:12  <TrueBrain> but it does automate stuff
20:25:16  <TrueBrain> (as it is .. a bot :P)
20:25:20  <frosch123> we discussed several things like tagging stuff for automatic merge/rebase/whatever
20:25:35  <TrueBrain> in the first version what I would like it to do
20:25:36  <frosch123> all the stuff python did
20:25:42  <glx> indeed an auto get call stack from dmp would be nice
20:25:42  <TrueBrain> python?
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20:25:52  <frosch123> the python project on github
20:25:57  <TrueBrain> ah, something similar
20:26:09  <TrueBrain> my current features: mention when the author needs to do an action
20:26:12  <TrueBrain> and when he pushes a new version
20:26:15  <frosch123> glx: mostly it stops at "assert" :)
20:26:17  <TrueBrain> mention that we have to do an action
20:26:27  <TrueBrain> that is it, basically
20:26:34  <TrueBrain> after that, we can extend :P
20:26:53  <frosch123> fancy colors
20:27:05  <TrueBrain> (or if you have a better idea, would love to hear it)
20:27:29  <frosch123> i have no idea about the details, but the summary sounds fine
20:27:50  <TrueBrain> good
20:28:03  <TrueBrain> so added stuff to TODO I will be working on first
20:28:16  <TrueBrain> if at any point you want to give others prio, just yell
20:28:25  <TrueBrain> if anyone wants to help, too, yell :)
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20:29:19  <LordAro> the GDPR todo's seem... odd
20:30:01  <TrueBrain> just a random statemeny is very useless to me
20:30:25  <LordAro> i can't see how the anonymous@ stuff would work with github at all, beyond "use this email address if you don't want your name on the commit", but someone with a GH account still has to raise a PR
20:30:29  <LordAro> i was typing, dammit
20:30:31  <LordAro> :p
20:30:44  <TrueBrain> so there are 2 tickets
20:30:48  <TrueBrain> 1) add anonymous@
20:30:52  <TrueBrain> 2) add GDPR to workflow
20:30:55  <TrueBrain> you confuse me :)
20:31:28  <TrueBrain> if 1) is your consern, you can make a commit with any email address, and push that
20:31:31  <LordAro> enforcing reading CONTRIBUTING just sounds like an annoyance to everyone involved, i've never liked contributing projects that enforce that you sign a ULA or something
20:31:39  <LordAro> those are 1, followed by 2
20:31:40  <LordAro> :p
20:31:50  <TrueBrain> you might not like it, but we have to do our best to make people aware what we do with their data
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20:31:57  <TrueBrain> GDPR or not, that is our job as developers
20:31:59  <TrueBrain> to make people aware
20:32:03  <TrueBrain> hiding it, is not an option
20:32:08  <TrueBrain> and given we will never ever delete their commit
20:32:16  <TrueBrain> it is okay to take some more effort to make them aware of such
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20:33:16  <LordAro> 1) they can't "push that" though - where are they pushing it? to make a PR it needs to be on a GH fork, and then they need to attach their "name" to a PR
20:33:19  <TrueBrain> but to keep it somewhat UX friendly, I want that you can say once: I read it, and that you never have to see it again :)
20:33:38  <TrueBrain> LordAro: you can still put in the commit different information
20:33:47  <TrueBrain> it is just about the commit itself
20:33:54  <LordAro> yeah, but GH will always link the commits to the PR
20:33:55  <TrueBrain> that GH still has your information, is between you and GH
20:34:08  <TrueBrain> (they have their own "right to be forgotten")
20:34:16  <TrueBrain> but our git will remain forever
20:34:19  <TrueBrain> (GH or not)
20:34:22  <LordAro> (we're having 2 conversations here, let's pick up 2) in a bit)
20:35:01  <TrueBrain> I honestly doubt anyone would make use of anonymous@, but having a way is just more polite
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20:35:31  <LordAro> right, so it's basically just a couple of sentences in CONTRIBUTING or whereever explaining what people in that situation should do?
20:35:39  <TrueBrain> yup
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20:35:50  <TrueBrain> I dont want to hear the bullshit: you are tracking my data, so I wont make this PR
20:36:33  <planetmaker_> I honestly believe that the anonymous@... stuff is a lot of work for no use
20:36:36  <TrueBrain> as we are not tracking data; we don't care about your data as such
20:36:50  <TrueBrain> planetmaker_: that honestly is the wrong thinking that got us the GDPR :)
20:37:00  <TrueBrain> we might be surprised how many people want to use it or what ever
20:37:01  <planetmaker_> If s/o really would like to not be mentioned in the commit log... have it run through one of us
20:37:05  <TrueBrain> and the effort is near zero :)
20:37:27  <michi_cc> planetmaker_: I very likely believe that it will never be used, but GDPR forbids linking service delivery with consent, so there...
20:38:07  <planetmaker_> it's in everyone's own capability to use whatever credits one pleases in the commits
20:38:12  <TrueBrain> and I think it is a fair alternative too, saying: you can email *address here* your patch if you want to be kept anonymous
20:38:21  <planetmaker_> we don't require stamped identities verified by NSA etc
20:38:22  <TrueBrain> but, this was less effort
20:38:53  <planetmaker_> just my 2ct. If you think it's worth your time, I'm the last one to stop you
20:39:14  <TrueBrain> I think we, as developers of any software, should consider more how to be polite to users
20:39:18  <TrueBrain> make sure they understand how we use their data
20:39:19  <TrueBrain> and how not
20:39:29  <TrueBrain> having a statement: you can use this address to stay anonymous in history
20:39:31  <TrueBrain> is a strong statement
20:39:38  <TrueBrain> which shows intention
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20:39:43  <michi_cc> LordAro: Some kind of ULA is mainly not about GDPR or anything similar at all, but mostly about copyright.
20:39:48  *** snail_UES_ has quit IRC
20:39:57  <LordAro> right, so 2)
20:40:01  <andythenorth> no copyright, no GPL :)
20:40:24  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: E_DIDNOTPARSE
20:40:27  <michi_cc> LordAro: The GDPR bit is a nice to have that you get "for free".
20:41:04  <andythenorth> TrueBrain: GPL is based on contributors having copyright to assign, otherwise it doesn't work :P
20:41:37  <andythenorth> so some OSS contrib. agreements are about author consenting to license as copyright holder
20:41:39  <LordAro> ULAs on github always annoy me, they're always just a blocker to contributing. I get why commercial companies on github often have to have one, for licensing reasons, but that just doesn't apply to an open-source GPL project IMO
20:41:41  <andythenorth> it's armchair law distraction
20:41:44  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: yup
20:41:53  <LordAro> besides, GH itself pops up a notification whenever CONTRIBUTING has changed
20:42:07  <LordAro> (when opening a PR/issue)
20:42:12  <andythenorth> LordAro: it's a fallback on people 'reverting their permission' in GPL project or whatever
20:42:19  <andythenorth> project wrecking BS
20:42:21  <TrueBrain> LordAro: sadly, GH doesnt tell us if a user has been shows CONTRIBUTING, which is a bit annoying
20:42:36  <LordAro> how would we know otherwise?
20:42:49  <LordAro> it's still on the user's word regardless
20:42:56  <TrueBrain> yes; but that is a lot stronger
20:42:58  <LordAro> same as any terms and conditions wall of text ever
20:43:08  <TrueBrain> did you see our ToS?
20:43:13  <TrueBrain> (when you signup to BaNaNaS)
20:43:29  <LordAro> at some point maybe?
20:43:32  <TrueBrain> as make no mistake, we are not presenting some legal text to the user
20:43:34  <TrueBrain> as that is not the point
20:43:38  <TrueBrain> and in fact, GDPR is very clear about that
20:43:44  <TrueBrain> (really good thing btw)
20:43:44  <LordAro> at least many years ago, and possibly not at all that i actually read
20:43:51  <TrueBrain> our ToS is a simple list of facts, I believe 11
20:43:57  <TrueBrain> if you dont read that, I really dont care
20:44:09  <TrueBrain> we did our best to present what we will do with your data in the shorest possible way
20:44:18  <TrueBrain> if you opt in to not care about your privacy, sure, your choice
20:44:24  <TrueBrain> but we cannot (and should not) think like that
20:44:36  <TrueBrain> I dont want to be that OSS that sells all information for epic profit
20:44:41  <TrueBrain> I want to be clear about that
20:44:59  <TrueBrain> and is forcing it upon people annoying ... possibly ... better than that they missed it, because it was too hidden for them
20:45:13  <TrueBrain> and because we cannot talk to most people that make PRs .. we need another way
20:45:24  <LordAro> i signed up to bananas 9 years ago, i have no idea whether i read it or not :p
20:45:49  <TrueBrain> it didnt scare you away. If you did, you clearly agreed with it. If you didn't .. well .. I did my best
20:45:52  <TrueBrain> and I cannot do more :)
20:46:10  <TrueBrain> NOT doing anything from my part, is just bad attitude
20:46:17  <TrueBrain> "nobody is going to read it anyway, so lets skip it"
20:46:24  <TrueBrain> that is why we are in this marketing nightmare :P
20:47:21  <LordAro> i don't disagree with that at all, there's just no way to implement it into GH in a way that isn't annoying as hell for the user
20:47:30  <LordAro> i think that's my issue here
20:47:32  <TrueBrain> "as hell"?!
20:47:36  <TrueBrain> what are you smoking? :P
20:47:50  <TrueBrain> either you have this whole illusion of what it is going to be
20:48:00  <TrueBrain> or we have a strong disagreement what "annoying as hell" means :D
20:48:37  <LordAro> fine, those words are a bit strong
20:48:45  <LordAro> but still annoying :p
20:48:49  <TrueBrain> now I am curious what you think I was planning to do :)
20:50:42  <TrueBrain> (and don't get me wrong, there will always be some annoyance to those that don't care .. that is unfixable; if you don't care about what happens with your data, any information about informing you about it, is one too many information. But our target group is not that group ;) )
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20:51:13  <LordAro> https://github.com/google/google-api-java-client/pull/1113#issuecomment-392082133 this sort of system is what i've got in my head
20:52:07  <TrueBrain> okay, that is give-or-take what I had in mind. How often do you think you will see that?
20:52:08  <LordAro> of course now that i'm looking at it it doesn't seem so awful
20:52:12  <TrueBrain> ;)
20:52:19  <TrueBrain> It is just on your first time
20:52:21  <TrueBrain> just once
20:52:22  <LordAro> yeah
20:52:23  <TrueBrain> I mean .. :)
20:52:30  <TrueBrain> if that is "annoying as hell" ..... :P
20:52:52  <LordAro> i think i had something a bit worse in my head - have to sign up to something before even seeing it, and massive amount of delay in approval
20:52:53  <TrueBrain> what I most likely will change, is that it will already list what our ToS is, and what our licenseis
20:53:01  <LordAro> can't remember where i saw something of that level though
20:53:15  <TrueBrain> what I want to avoid, is what Python does (rightfully btw), and ask your home address
20:53:18  <TrueBrain> that felt wrong
20:53:43  <LordAro> that does seem wrong
20:53:55  <LordAro> why do you say they do it rightfully?
20:54:34  <TrueBrain> they want a legal document
20:54:43  <TrueBrain> I am not really looking for that legal part
20:54:48  <TrueBrain> I just want to have done what we can
20:54:55  <TrueBrain> in an as-legal-as-possible-without-going-to-far way
20:54:59  <LordAro> right
20:55:10  <LordAro> ok, i think we're in agreement here :)
20:55:12  <LordAro> carry on
20:55:15  <TrueBrain> good :D
20:55:19  <TrueBrain> and tnx for challenging
20:55:22  <TrueBrain> I really do appreciate that
20:55:48  <LordAro> np :D
20:56:41  <TrueBrain> lol @ googlebot, they also fixed corp accounts
20:56:42  <TrueBrain> that is nice :)
20:57:08  <LordAro> it could possibly be implemented using the checks API :D
20:57:09  <TrueBrain> in countries like mine it is not possible for me to sign a CLA when I work for a company :)
20:57:22  <TrueBrain> not a bad idea tbh
20:57:30  <TrueBrain> that is even leaner
20:57:35  <TrueBrain> we can make it mandatory
20:57:39  <TrueBrain> means no label blabla
20:57:56  <LordAro> hmm, checks is only via "GH Apps" right now though
20:58:05  <TrueBrain> yup
20:58:07  <TrueBrain> which the bot has to be
20:58:13  <TrueBrain> so that is fine
20:58:22  <LordAro> ah right
20:58:47  <TrueBrain> back to my list .. I have the feeling I am missing stuff ..
20:58:56  <andythenorth> merge NRT? o_O
20:59:02  * andythenorth will get slapped now :(
20:59:25  <peter1138> With or without lots of types?
20:59:50  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: I promise you I will do exactly nothing for NRT
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21:00:00  <andythenorth> peter1138: start with 16
21:00:05  <andythenorth> then 64 is a 'feature'
21:00:12  <andythenorth> release management eh :P
21:00:12  <peter1138> I can't. It only has 15 :p
21:00:17  <andythenorth> plenty
21:00:20  <andythenorth> more than enough
21:02:13  <frosch123> TrueBrain: compile patchpacks :)
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21:04:14  <LordAro> andythenorth: i feel it's only going to result in "complaints" if the number of roadtypes doesn't match the number of railtypes
21:04:34  <andythenorth> have we approved the 64 railtype PR? o_O
21:04:36  <TrueBrain> frosch123: added :)
21:04:55  <LordAro> andythenorth: it got merged, didn't it?
21:05:05  <LordAro> oh, that was cargoes, right?
21:05:17  <andythenorth> nope https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/6805
21:05:50  <andythenorth> ;)
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21:07:24  <TrueBrain> that list really is longer than I expected ... and still I think I am missing stuff :D
21:07:40  <planetmaker_> TrueBrain, is that list you have there on trellow authorative? Can we write to it? Or is it just for you?
21:07:56  <TrueBrain> it is my list of tasks I want to do for OpenTTD
21:08:03  <TrueBrain> at least, that is why I created it
21:08:10  <TrueBrain> so others can see, and prioritize my time
21:08:11  <frosch123> TrueBrain: master server 2, authentication service :p
21:08:17  <TrueBrain> frosch123: already added :D
21:08:22  <TrueBrain> (well, rewrite MSU)
21:08:39  <planetmaker_> aye.
21:08:39  <frosch123> damn, shorter lists are better though
21:08:52  <TrueBrain> planetmaker_: so if you have any you like to add, please :)
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21:09:12  <planetmaker_> aye, will do. Gotta say good night now though. Bye :)
21:09:26  <Wolf01> 'night
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21:09:48  <LordAro> TrueBrain: oh yes, nightlies are still missing
21:10:06  <LordAro> unless that's covered under Continuous Deployment
21:10:19  <TrueBrain> "Releases via Docker"
21:10:23  <TrueBrain> night planetmaker_
21:10:33  <LordAro> cool
21:11:19  <TrueBrain> if CD works, there is a strong chance we just dockerize the whole shit .. should make it easier for others to help out too
21:11:27  <TrueBrain> as than you can run "OpenTTD.org" on your own machine :P
21:11:34  <LordAro> :D
21:12:15  <TrueBrain> (just trying different ways to get people to help out with these things .. as the current infrastructure makes that too difficult)
21:12:32  <TrueBrain> you need 3 SSHs and 1 sudo to update the main website :P
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21:14:49  <TrueBrain> my wishlist is getting bigger and bigger :P
21:14:54  <TrueBrain> but I am pretty happy with my todo :)
21:17:57  <TrueBrain> right, something I have to think about tomorrow or so ... are we going to bother with requesting a license every year so we can use GitLab CI/CD .. or do I make something simple in DorpsGek to add the same functionality
21:18:12  <TrueBrain> I really dont want to add more custom stuff .. but I also dont want to do something every year
21:18:31  <peter1138> Make DorpsGek request a license every year :p
21:19:12  <TrueBrain> it needs human interaction, sadly
21:20:26  <LordAro> what can you add to DorpsGek to make it do the same?
21:20:44  <TrueBrain> all I want from such system that it can read a config file in a git repo, to do actions
21:21:02  <TrueBrain> and a simple web UI that shows what the status is, and where I can push: deploy to production
21:21:22  <LordAro> it'd be a shame to lose the GH builtin build status, IMO
21:21:31  <TrueBrain> huh?
21:21:38  <TrueBrain> no clue how you read that conclusion in what I wrote
21:21:39  <LordAro> i'm misunderstanding something
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21:22:32  <TrueBrain> GitLab CI/CD really awesomely solved how you can do CI/CD in a simple way
21:22:36  <TrueBrain> Jenkinsfile is ... well .. crap
21:22:47  <TrueBrain> the gitlab yml file is a lot nicer
21:23:00  <TrueBrain> it also adds an UI to show were a run is ...
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21:23:08  <TrueBrain> so if you merge something in master, it shows it deployed it to staging
21:23:15  <TrueBrain> and you can manually accept it to move to production
21:23:20  <TrueBrain> which is exactly what I would like
21:23:30  <TrueBrain> (and PRs it validates)
21:23:30  <LordAro> right, but wouldn't we lose some stuff by using GH instead of GL?
21:23:45  <TrueBrain> this is about replacing Jenkinsfile
21:23:52  <TrueBrain> not about GL or GH
21:23:56  <TrueBrain> things still report to GH
21:24:09  <TrueBrain> (reporting is just an API call)
21:24:15  <LordAro> jenkinsfile --> jenkins entirely?
21:24:22  <TrueBrain> Jenkins is up for debate
21:24:34  <TrueBrain> gitlab CI runners seem nice too
21:24:43  <LordAro> can you use the CI runners with jenkins?
21:24:50  <TrueBrain> Jenkins for us is just going to be agents btw
21:24:57  <TrueBrain> the CI runners are the agents, so no
21:25:24  <TrueBrain> but if I only want to run the GitLab runners, I can just use the GitLab CE
21:25:36  <TrueBrain> in the end, who runs the job, nobody should care about :)
21:25:58  <TrueBrain> but the person sitting between the CI and GH is what I have to tackle first
21:26:01  <LordAro> i feel like if you're not careful you're going to end up migrating the whole thing to GL.com :p
21:26:04  <TrueBrain> currently this is some Jenkins plugin, which is horrible
21:26:16  <TrueBrain> you would migrate to gl.org, but no
21:26:21  <TrueBrain> I have zero interest in that
21:26:32  <TrueBrain> GH is fine, and nothing in what I said above should change that
21:26:37  <TrueBrain> as I only talk about the CI/CD really
21:26:43  <TrueBrain> (and reporting information to GH is easy)
21:26:54  <LordAro> other than GL CI having to essentially duplicate the repo
21:27:01  <TrueBrain> implementation detail
21:27:08  <TrueBrain> the GL will be hidden away
21:27:37  <TrueBrain> the issue a bit is .. running your own travis is .. euh .. no tnx
21:27:44  <TrueBrain> creating it yourself is .. well .. why?
21:27:54  <TrueBrain> the only other I can find that does similar work, is gitlab CI
21:28:00  <TrueBrain> well, we have Jenkins .. but .. again .. Jenkins ... ugh
21:28:04  <LordAro> mm
21:28:13  <TrueBrain> Jenkins doesnt give me enough control, basically
21:28:26  <LordAro> how so, ooi?
21:28:31  <TrueBrain> (it has some fundemental flaws to work in these setups)
21:28:41  <TrueBrain> the main issue is how it handles Jenkinsfiles
21:29:14  <TrueBrain> it first assigns an agent the job to fetch the repo, to process the Jenkinsfile, and than to execute it
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21:29:25  <TrueBrain> ignoring how crap Jenkinsfiles are (2 languages in 1 .. really?!)
21:29:33  <TrueBrain> that means dockerizing is painful
21:29:43  <TrueBrain> I cannot always run a script
21:29:46  <TrueBrain> so I cannot trust the Jenkinsfile
21:29:49  <TrueBrain> so it has to run in a Docker
21:29:58  <TrueBrain> and ... than that Docker should start another Docker to do the wor
21:29:59  <TrueBrain> k
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21:30:04  <LordAro> i see
21:30:06  <TrueBrain> what I much rather have, is a script that gets the Jenkinsfile
21:30:08  <TrueBrain> and runs it
21:30:12  <TrueBrain> so I can control actions
21:30:16  <TrueBrain> but ... nope
21:30:21  <TrueBrain> which is a really suck design choice
21:30:27  <TrueBrain> very very insecure tbfh
21:30:43  <TrueBrain> and as we are a public project .... I am not trusting anyone not to make a PR that starts a cryptominer
21:31:11  <TrueBrain> it would be okay, if I could say: use the Jenkinsfile from master
21:31:19  <TrueBrain> but no, it can ONLY use the Jenkinsfile that is part of the PR
21:31:22  <TrueBrain> which is just bullshit
21:31:33  <TrueBrain> OR .. I can hardcode the Jenkinsfile
21:31:36  <TrueBrain> meaning it is not in a VCS
21:33:05  <TrueBrain> so I was thinking about some simple custom language, where you can set some configs, like: staging is on this domain, production on this, you link to these containers, you run these CI dockers to validate, etc
21:33:13  <TrueBrain> and that DorpsGek coordinates (with Jenkins) to execute the right thing
21:33:17  <andythenorth> just reject commits with 'crypt' in the diff
21:33:21  <andythenorth> job done
21:33:24  <andythenorth> infosec by andythenorth
21:33:32  <TrueBrain> please don't apply for an infosec job
21:33:34  <TrueBrain> :P
21:33:58  <andythenorth> probably catches 95% of those who try :P
21:34:06  <andythenorth> and the 5% you'd never catch anyway
21:34:23  <TrueBrain> that is why I want to run them ALL in a Docker :)
21:34:26  <__ln__> run your own cryptominer on the server at a higher priority, so it'll earn more
21:34:28  <TrueBrain> which I can restrict :)
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21:34:42  <TrueBrain> either way ... LordAro, any ideas etc are welcoem
21:34:44  <TrueBrain> for now: good ngiht
21:34:52  <LordAro> g'night
21:34:53  <TrueBrain> give or take some typos
21:36:10  <andythenorth> also
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