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02:16:23 *** glx has quit IRC 06:07:39 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 06:11:18 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 06:12:07 *** snail_UES_ has quit IRC 06:40:29 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 07:26:24 <TrueBrain> can anyone translate (pun intended) bug report #6862? 07:26:36 <TrueBrain> owh, written by peter1138, so maybe he can 07:26:41 <TrueBrain> I am scratching my head here what it says ... 07:29:59 <peter1138> There are basesets that use translations 07:30:13 <peter1138> They are inserted into the baseset during compilation 07:30:36 <peter1138> The compile basesets are also included in the git repo 07:30:57 <peter1138> *compiled 07:31:12 <Eddi|zuHause> i think it means the .obg files have to be rebuilt on translator changes 07:31:15 <peter1138> blah blah blah 07:31:19 <peter1138> yes 07:31:22 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: tnx :D 07:31:32 <TrueBrain> why are the compiled baseset files in the git repo? Given they are ... compiled? 07:31:44 <peter1138> I don't know 07:31:54 <peter1138> maybe removing them is a better solution 07:32:09 <TrueBrain> you would think that happens on building of the project 07:32:16 <peter1138> Indeed 07:32:22 <peter1138> I can submit a PR to do that 07:33:27 <andythenorth> so....3 output cargos per industry then? o_O 07:33:27 <TrueBrain> I think it is first important to know why it was done this way :D 07:33:37 * andythenorth derails conversation :P 07:33:41 <Eddi|zuHause> the .grf files should probably stay, as they need grfcodec to build, but the .obg files? 07:38:20 <TrueBrain> peter1138: I think it is easiest if we move the request to the project that handles eints<->openttd connection; that should trigger frosch123 enough for him to either remove the precompiled stuff from git, or add it to the commit script :D 07:52:12 <planetmaker> o/ 07:52:55 <planetmaker> TrueBrain, the compiled grf file(s) are in the repo as you should be able to build OpenTTD w/o grfcodec. In principle you could remove them and require grfcodec as build dependency 08:01:24 <TrueBrain> why do we need grfcodec to add some translations in a baseset file? 08:01:42 <Eddi|zuHause> you don't. 08:01:56 <Eddi|zuHause> the .grf file is something different than the .obg file 08:02:15 <TrueBrain> ah, okay 08:02:26 <TrueBrain> so that leaves the quest: why do the obg need to be precompiled? :) 08:03:36 <Eddi|zuHause> it contains the md5sum of the grf files? 08:04:02 <Eddi|zuHause> so it's naturally the result of compiling the grf file 08:05:14 <TrueBrain> that sounds fair 08:05:33 <TrueBrain> guess eints-openttd needs some additional lines in some script than 08:05:52 <peter1138> Are there any platforms where the ob* files are not built? Visual Studio? 08:07:27 <peter1138> Hmm 08:07:44 <LordAro> i imagine that'll be the reason, that's why the .sq files aren't autogenerated 08:07:45 <peter1138> Uh 08:07:56 <peter1138> So I removed the *ob* files and... they are not regenerated :p 08:11:43 <peter1138> How's that build system rewrite going...? 08:16:33 <peter1138> It doesn't update the translations if grfcodec is not installed. 08:17:40 <peter1138> (So if you don't have grfcodec installed, you wouldn't notice that these ob* files get updated) 08:25:22 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 08:29:18 <planetmaker> yep 08:31:20 <Eddi|zuHause> so the file generation must be split in two steps, one which calculates the md5 after creating the grf file, and the other that adds the translations. so the translation step can run without grfcodec present 08:31:24 <peter1138> I think they should be built independently of the grf files, and the final version not included in the repo. 08:31:36 <peter1138> Hmm. 08:33:20 <Eddi|zuHause> it might defeat the point of the md5 sum somewhat if it were recalculated every time the translations are updated? 08:34:08 <peter1138> ? 08:34:51 <Eddi|zuHause> dunno if that made any sense, still early :p 08:35:37 <peter1138> It doesn't. 08:40:33 <planetmaker> the grf contains the translations which are added by eints. And the baseset file describtion (obg) contains the md5 of the grf files which make up the base set 08:40:59 <planetmaker> so yes, first you need to compile the grf which includes the strings. And then you can re-generate the obg with updated md5 08:42:09 <planetmaker> so it is like: 08:42:24 <planetmaker> * eints commit modifies a file which contains strings for the grf 08:42:35 <planetmaker> * grfcodec uses that file and generates the grf 08:42:46 <planetmaker> * whatever uses the grf to generate the obg file 08:42:50 <planetmaker> 3-step basically 08:43:24 <planetmaker> currently eints commits only cover the 1st step. The 2nd and 3rd are only done when a committer does so manually 08:43:32 <Eddi|zuHause> no, the translations are almost definitely in the .obg file 08:43:47 <planetmaker> Generally, there's not much traffic in the strings for base set translations... 08:43:51 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think basesets have an action14 08:43:56 <planetmaker> hm 08:44:00 <planetmaker> let me check 08:46:28 <Eddi|zuHause> there seems to be ./media/baseset/*.obg with a placeholder for the translations, and ./bin/baseset/*.obg with the translations included. so the process probably has the relevant steps already, it just needs to run 08:46:57 <planetmaker> yes-ish. there's an awk file in media/baseset which takes care of that if run 08:47:19 <planetmaker> and there's Makefile.lang.in which likely calls that 08:48:16 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, so that part of the baseset makefile must be run also if grfcodec is not present 08:48:27 <planetmaker> yup 08:53:05 <peter1138> Yeah, the translations are in the ob* files, not the grfs themselves. 08:53:32 <peter1138> I'm also talking about obm files, which don't have grfs 08:53:45 <peter1138> But still depends on grfcodec to be built :p 08:56:26 <TrueBrain> tnx for splitting it up peter1138; that is a lot easier to review :D 09:01:21 <TrueBrain> hmm .. it seems GitHub no longer sends me emails when someone pushes new stuff in a PR 09:01:23 <TrueBrain> that is annoying 09:02:11 <TrueBrain> peter1138: #6780, you added and removed the same label :D Was that intended? 09:02:35 <peter1138> TrueBrain, I was on the wrong issue :P 09:02:47 <TrueBrain> it seems it now needs a review again, not? 09:03:11 <peter1138> Not sure, don't remember if I pushed to it. 09:03:19 <TrueBrain> you did :) 09:03:26 <peter1138> Ah... 09:03:33 <peter1138> Ok, then I should've left it off 09:03:38 <TrueBrain> I really dont like GitHub for the workflow .. we really have to figure out our own it seems 09:03:55 <TrueBrain> I am thinking of making DorpsGek remove 'waiting-on-author' when someone updates a PR 09:04:09 <TrueBrain> and that we add the label when we left comments 09:04:25 <TrueBrain> not sure .. but keeping overview with default github stuff is .. euh .. yeah, no 09:08:38 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 09:10:06 <TrueBrain> hello andythenorth! Feel like testing the Forest patch this week? :D (mostly the different climates) 09:10:20 <andythenorth> probs yes 09:10:23 <andythenorth> now that my build work 09:10:24 <TrueBrain> \o/ 09:10:25 <andythenorth> works * 09:34:03 *** andythenorth is now known as Guest1775 09:34:06 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 09:39:04 *** Guest1775 has quit IRC 10:03:55 <peter1138> Please don't, over develop it. 10:11:53 *** chomwitt has joined #openttd 11:30:55 <andythenorth> the forest patch? 11:30:58 <andythenorth> or just everything? 11:31:04 <TrueBrain> the world dude; THE WORLD! 11:31:11 <andythenorth> just everything 11:34:28 <peter1138> Just quoting a necro-post. 11:50:27 <andythenorth> oof 11:50:35 <andythenorth> NRTs is all broken https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1210048#p1210048 11:50:39 <andythenorth> let's delete it 11:50:48 <TrueBrain> ok 11:52:16 <TrueBrain> that bug seems unfixable indeed 11:52:24 <TrueBrain> okay, closed the PR, remove your repository, and the branch 11:52:25 <TrueBrain> you are welcome 11:52:39 <peter1138> :D 11:52:43 <andythenorth> I like -D 11:52:51 <peter1138> andythenorth likes the D 11:53:01 <TrueBrain> as long as it aint a double-D! 11:53:02 <andythenorth> so I should delete my fork too> 11:53:04 <peter1138> Damn, you wait ages for lunch, and then it's over in seconds. 11:53:09 <TrueBrain> I removed your fork 11:53:12 <TrueBrain> and the files on your disk 11:53:14 <TrueBrain> and the backup 11:53:14 <andythenorth> and peter's fork, because I forked from that 11:53:25 <TrueBrain> you know what 11:53:28 <TrueBrain> I just remove the Internet 11:53:29 <TrueBrain> how about that 11:53:29 <andythenorth> rm * 11:53:42 <andythenorth> I am glad we had this chat 11:53:54 <TrueBrain> \o/ 11:54:12 <peter1138> Meanwhile, the "realistic" shunting patch is buggy and people are saying it's ready and should be included in patch packs... 11:54:31 <andythenorth> well we included ICU 11:54:33 <andythenorth> and that's buggy 11:54:40 <peter1138> It is now, it used to be fine. 11:54:45 <andythenorth> oh dear 11:54:54 <andythenorth> so many and very things 11:54:54 <TrueBrain> when he tested it, it was fine! :P 11:55:00 <peter1138> ;D 11:55:04 <andythenorth> but is it lunch? 11:55:16 <peter1138> Well, I had mine :S 11:55:22 <peter1138> Was I too early? Should I have another? 11:55:24 <TrueBrain> I had mine 2 hours ago :o 11:55:52 <TrueBrain> wtf is shunting, I wonder .. 11:56:18 <andythenorth> read the thread 11:56:19 <TrueBrain> ah 11:56:20 <TrueBrain> that is 11:56:22 <TrueBrain> yeah 11:56:25 <TrueBrain> "the thread" 11:56:26 <TrueBrain> I just googled it :P 11:56:39 <peter1138> model railway simulation 11:57:00 <TrueBrain> you have a VR game "Derailed" 11:57:03 <TrueBrain> where you are in a locomotive 11:57:09 <TrueBrain> and have to collect all the wagons and move them to the right spot, etc 11:57:14 <andythenorth> https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=83374 11:57:18 <TrueBrain> pretty funny, but difficult 11:57:50 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: i guess the quality of "well tested" has not really changed in the past 10 years :p 11:58:04 <TrueBrain> "it compiles" == "well tested" 11:58:18 <TrueBrain> "it works for me" == "looks good to me" 11:58:27 <TrueBrain> holds for any Open Source project I am afraid :P 11:58:32 <Eddi|zuHause> "patchpack X has it included" 11:59:15 <TrueBrain> I like all the animated gifs :D 11:59:58 <TrueBrain> so I can make that on a big hill it can bring up one wagon at the time?! :D 12:00:59 <Eddi|zuHause> probably 12:01:11 <Eddi|zuHause> unless you're using a fancy newgrf 12:01:17 <Eddi|zuHause> then it crashes :p 12:01:35 <TrueBrain> mb's fault, I am sure 12:02:36 <andythenorth> but if you try and explain anything in the thread 12:02:39 <andythenorth> you are using fancy words 12:02:42 <Eddi|zuHause> it was definitely MB who put into Snail's head to make this kind of fine grained detail into his grf :p 12:02:46 <andythenorth> and are part of an entourage 12:03:03 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: that is just a typical comment from the wannabe-devs that make up the entourage, tbbh 12:03:31 <TrueBrain> fancy pancy, I love fancy words 12:03:33 <TrueBrain> I never know what they mean 12:03:36 <TrueBrain> but I do love them 12:03:38 <TrueBrain> they are so cute and pretty 12:03:43 <TrueBrain> we are still talking about words, right? 12:04:18 <Eddi|zuHause> so does that mean i'm in TrueBrain's entourage or TrueBrain is in my entourage? 12:04:33 <TrueBrain> can I refuse? 12:04:49 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm unsure how the rules are on this :p 12:05:28 <andythenorth> I was unclear 12:05:32 <TrueBrain> can we put them in a newgrf? 12:05:36 <andythenorth> duno 12:05:48 <Eddi|zuHause> no, you must use a modern language 12:05:51 <TrueBrain> can we get that clear? I am a bit scared about this entourage now 12:05:52 <andythenorth> but no specx 12:06:02 <TrueBrain> lua! 12:06:07 <TrueBrain> lets add lua! 12:06:10 <TrueBrain> Yes? Please? 12:06:23 <TrueBrain> I wish I had time to do stuff on OpenTTD, instead of all this infrastructure blabla 12:06:24 <TrueBrain> meh 12:07:30 <andythenorth> the entourage definition is here https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1208428#p1208428 12:08:51 <TrueBrain> I do not understand that reply at all 12:08:57 <TrueBrain> I do like that he will only post serious comments 12:09:03 <TrueBrain> I guess a joke is out of the question now! 12:11:00 <andythenorth> is it a knock-knock joke? 12:11:06 <andythenorth> they're the best kind 12:11:13 <andythenorth> I'd do Interrupting Cow 12:11:19 <andythenorth> but it's really hard in async chat 12:11:35 <TrueBrain> non-blocking chat :D 12:11:41 <TrueBrain> YOU CANT TELL ME TO SHUT UP 12:11:44 <TrueBrain> @whoami 12:11:44 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: TrueBrain 12:11:48 <TrueBrain> hmm .. I can ... 12:14:25 <andythenorth> forums are so shit for development 12:14:27 <andythenorth> but eh 12:14:37 * andythenorth needs to test forests 12:19:34 <peter1138> TrueBrain, yeah, I played derailed. The demo had a bug with time going too fast so it's waaaay too hard. 12:19:46 <TrueBrain> but it is fun :D 12:19:58 <TrueBrain> I derailed so many trains :D 12:20:02 <peter1138> :D 12:20:24 <peter1138> Ah it's Derail Valley 12:20:31 <TrueBrain> tomato tomato :D 12:20:35 <TrueBrain> is there a non-beta already? 12:20:37 <peter1138> Hmm still not released :( 12:20:40 <TrueBrain> booooo 12:20:47 <peter1138> TrueBrain, google thiks I need to be more exact ;( 12:20:56 <TrueBrain> pfft 12:20:59 <peter1138> "steam" + "derailed" brings up a lot of wrong hits, hehe 12:21:16 <peter1138> Although actually the correct hit is the first item 12:21:58 <peter1138> "I read that path signals are a CPU hog" 12:21:59 <peter1138> Sigh 12:22:13 <TrueBrain> I read a lot of stuff 12:22:41 <peter1138> Somebody spread this myth around everywhere. 12:22:52 <TrueBrain> sorry about that 12:22:54 <TrueBrain> :P 12:23:30 <peter1138> If you get to the bottom of it, it's a very minor train-performance thing where stopped trains don't *instantly* restart when the path is free, nothing to do with CPU. 12:23:46 <TrueBrain> ghehe 12:23:54 <peter1138> Someone must have seen "performance issue" and figured it was CPU. 12:25:28 <andythenorth> derail valley looks fun 12:25:32 <andythenorth> no headset tho :P 12:25:41 <TrueBrain> headset is not important; VR glasses is :D 12:25:42 <peter1138> It is. Total micromanagement. 12:26:07 <peter1138> There's another VR game which is .. a model railway simulator. 12:26:20 <peter1138> Rolling Line 12:26:46 <peter1138> You can change scale and drive trains, of course. 12:26:49 <andythenorth> graphics look weird 12:26:55 <andythenorth> not one thing nor the other 12:27:01 <peter1138> Yeah, pretty stylised. 12:28:21 <andythenorth> so what's the forest patch for then? 12:28:29 <andythenorth> is it just 'fewer trees'? 12:37:04 *** imdak has joined #openttd 12:39:53 <imdak> Hey. I was interested in what mods does everybody play with, so I have made a survey for that. If you wanna share your favorite mods, you can do so here: http://www.survey-maker.com/QTAXMC7 12:56:26 <TrueBrain> who dares to click that link to check if it is legit? 12:56:34 <TrueBrain> (sorry, but it just sounds scetchy :D) 12:57:09 <andythenorth> probs fine 13:08:29 *** snail_UES_ has joined #openttd 13:16:19 *** dvim has joined #openttd 13:22:32 *** snail_UES_ has quit IRC 13:42:48 *** LANJesus has quit IRC 13:45:07 *** nielsm has joined #openttd 13:47:13 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 13:48:58 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 13:58:29 *** keoz has joined #openttd 14:01:27 <imdak> I can vouch for the survey being legit ;) 14:02:35 *** imdak has quit IRC 14:15:13 <TrueBrain> nielsm: seems you have a fan which wants to alter your FPS window some more :) 14:15:21 <TrueBrain> possibly best if you take a look at it (both at the PR as the issue) 14:29:26 *** Inari has joined #openttd 14:31:45 <Inari> Hi there! Not sure where to ask. So I installed OpenTTD with the Windows installer, and that worked okay. Now I'm trying to use a mod, which comes with a precompiled binary, so I extracted that and try to start it, but it seemed to want me to download opengfx/sfx/msx. I did download opengfx and placed it into the baseset folder, as the readme of it tells me to. However, upon starting, OpenTTD 14:32:17 <Inari> doesn't seem to recognize that, and the OpenTTD readme tells me to put it into the data folder instead, where it seems to find it, but just proceeds to tell me that the files are corrupted or missing? 14:43:39 <nielsm> TrueBrain, that's something to annoy me :D he had a month or more to bring this up before the PR was merged 14:43:55 <nielsm> guess not everyone looks at the PRs :) 14:49:39 <Inari> Ah, perhaps because the ttd version is quite old 14:55:34 *** juzza1 has joined #openttd 14:56:24 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd 14:58:30 *** Alberth has joined #openttd 14:58:31 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Alberth 15:15:59 <Alberth> o/ 15:16:08 *** Progman has joined #openttd 15:17:43 <andythenorth> oops 15:17:46 <andythenorth> over-developed it 15:19:31 *** CompuDesktop has quit IRC 15:20:44 <Alberth> :o 15:24:41 *** Compu has joined #openttd 15:25:39 *** Compu has quit IRC 15:25:59 *** Compu has joined #openttd 15:31:12 <TrueBrain> nielsm: indeed :) And that is okay :) At least he made a PR, that I always appreciate :) 15:32:45 *** Inari has left #openttd 15:44:35 <Eddi|zuHause> so, can anyone write me a browser plugin that only works on the youtube "watch later" playlist, and replaces all video links there with ones without the playlist attached to it? so i can click on videos there and only watch that video. 15:45:48 <Eddi|zuHause> basically, "s/&list=WL//" 15:50:21 <Alberth> you are aware that the performance record of anyone isn't very good eh? 15:50:49 <Eddi|zuHause> possibly, but is it really worse than mine? :p 15:50:53 <andythenorth> about the same 15:50:59 <andythenorth> I found the wikipedia page I needed finally 15:51:00 <andythenorth> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrochemical 15:52:08 <andythenorth> I should replace Ethlyene 15:52:09 <andythenorth> http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html#extreme 15:52:11 <Alberth> :O input! input! 15:52:27 <andythenorth> 'Petrochemical Intermediate Feedstocks' 15:52:33 <andythenorth> it's quite long for a cargo name though :P 15:53:01 <Alberth> chemists have a long track record for inventing long names :p 15:53:55 <andythenorth> I wondered about 'petrochemicals' 15:53:57 <Eddi|zuHause> now imagine in german chemical compound words, where you leave out such spaces inbetween 15:54:39 <andythenorth> I think I need to do a chemical industry economy 15:54:44 <andythenorth> and extreme isn't that :P 15:54:55 <Alberth> yes, and yes :) 15:55:22 <Eddi|zuHause> well, you will horribly fail on that with the input/output restrictions :p 15:55:23 <andythenorth> so does it make sense to just have 'petroleum fuels' and 'petrochemicals'? 15:55:26 <Alberth> extreme chemicals :) 15:55:41 <Eddi|zuHause> yes 15:55:47 <andythenorth> this would fold 'ammonia' and 'ethylene' into petrochemicals 15:55:58 <andythenorth> lye, sulphur, soda ash would all stay 15:56:03 <andythenorth> and chlorine 15:56:14 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think ammonia fits that category 15:56:23 <andythenorth> folding too far? 15:56:39 <andythenorth> the main advantage of replacing ethylene is I can give it a second destination somewhere 15:56:50 <andythenorth> whereas ethylene can only go to the polymer plant 15:57:42 <andythenorth> I like ammonia 15:58:02 <andythenorth> but if I fold it into petrochemicals, then petrochemicals can go to the specialty chemicals plant 15:58:11 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but petrochemicals are pretty much all carbon-chain stuff. while ammonia is nitrogen stuff 15:58:33 <andythenorth> ok 15:58:41 <andythenorth> so I'm trying to cover the big 5 or so 15:59:45 <andythenorth> https://www.dummies.com/education/science/chemistry/the-top-10-industrial-chemicals/ 16:01:52 <andythenorth> apparently oxygen isn't widely transported, although I did consider a cryo plant 16:02:04 <andythenorth> similarly nitrogen 16:02:22 <andythenorth> ethanol I tried but I think it conflates with alcohol in game 16:03:05 <andythenorth> ethylene, ethylene dichloride and propylene all originate in petrochem and product plastic, so not worth splitting 16:03:15 <andythenorth> produce / product /s 16:04:23 <Eddi|zuHause> you mean splitting "consumer alcohol" and "industrial alcohol" (includes methanol and stuff)? 16:05:32 <andythenorth> yeah 16:05:41 <andythenorth> or using consumer alcohol in industrial processes 16:05:47 <Alberth> beer vs alcohol, right? 16:05:52 <andythenorth> I couldn't see a way to make it good, so I didn't do it 16:06:03 <andythenorth> beer, wine, vodka, cide vs. industrial alcohol 16:06:23 <andythenorth> there was a similar issue with acetic acid which would be a nice food additive, and is used for plastic + glue 16:06:45 <andythenorth> industry uses petrochem acetic acid, but food use must be derived from crops 16:07:25 <andythenorth> I removed the biorefinery for related reasons, as they produce ethanol, not petroleum fuels 16:21:12 <Alberth> bio-ethanol :) 16:22:04 <Alberth> but yeah, reality is always more complicated 16:24:32 *** andythenorth is now known as Guest1791 16:24:32 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 16:28:14 *** Guest1791 has quit IRC 16:33:54 *** chomwitt has quit IRC 16:35:48 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: https://medium.com/bbc-design-engineering/how-we-deliver-with-gcp-at-the-bbc-1c9812acf3a1 16:38:19 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 17:05:55 *** Wolf01 has joined #openttd 17:06:08 <Wolf01> o/ 17:06:15 <Wolf01> $chan is +R 17:11:01 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 17:13:33 <TrueBrain> frosch promised me! 17:13:35 <TrueBrain> @mode -R 17:13:35 *** DorpsGek sets mode: -R 17:18:32 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: I really hope GCP can give us a nice offer ... would be such a relieve :) 17:18:44 <andythenorth> I know nothing about them :) 17:18:50 <andythenorth> I just thought the article was interesting :) 17:19:18 <andythenorth> I live in a world where single-app VMs are deployed 17:19:33 <TrueBrain> its better than multi-app, what we had before that 17:19:39 <TrueBrain> but containers is the next step 17:19:44 <TrueBrain> so you are just on the ladder :D 17:20:24 <andythenorth> :P 17:20:41 <andythenorth> we might actually go back to multi-app, with mono-repo 17:20:56 <andythenorth> but single-tenant 17:21:11 <TrueBrain> the other day I read an article of a dude that claimed going from microservices back to monolitic was the best move they made in years .. it made me cry ... 17:21:40 <andythenorth> there have been a few of those 17:21:48 <andythenorth> I think it very depends on your use case 17:22:04 <TrueBrain> if you went to microservices and it is failing, it is most likely not because of microservices 17:22:05 <andythenorth> much of life is simpler with a monolithic app 17:22:22 <TrueBrain> yup; its simpler to put in a single human brain 17:22:29 <TrueBrain> and there often architects go wrong :) 17:22:40 <andythenorth> someone showed me nanoservices 17:22:47 <andythenorth> I assumed it was a troll, but no 17:22:55 <TrueBrain> thinking about your product as a big black box is rarely a good idea :) 17:23:07 <andythenorth> nanoservices are single method calls/returns over http 17:23:58 <TrueBrain> lambda functions 17:24:09 <TrueBrain> the name is somewhat changing over the last few months 17:24:12 <TrueBrain> more towards "functions" 17:24:17 <TrueBrain> serverless functions 17:24:29 <TrueBrain> but people have issues with the word "serverless", as they are not serverless .. just from the point of the author it is 17:24:30 <andythenorth> I guess it's nice when state doesn't matter 17:24:43 <TrueBrain> stateless, lambdas are very very good (and fast, etc) 17:24:47 <TrueBrain> stateful, it is not hopeless 17:24:57 <TrueBrain> you just need a fast "database" next to it 17:25:00 <TrueBrain> for example, redis 17:25:11 <andythenorth> how does it roll back transactions? :P 17:25:16 <TrueBrain> as functions can persist on most clouds for a period of time, where they are recycled 17:25:25 <andythenorth> when something like 'create user' is a nanoservice 17:25:46 <andythenorth> there are probably better examples, but eh 17:25:54 <TrueBrain> a function is a single transaction 17:25:57 <TrueBrain> so he can roll himself back 17:26:04 <andythenorth> nah the example I saw was overly-nano 17:26:16 <andythenorth> I'm sure it was a clever troll 17:26:26 <TrueBrain> I havent heard the name nanoservice yet 17:26:31 <TrueBrain> but lambdas is very popular atm 17:26:35 <TrueBrain> all cloud providers suplpy it 17:26:55 <TrueBrain> I tried it for OpenTTD .. I didn't like it :P 17:27:08 <TrueBrain> (you need proper infrastructure :D) 17:27:24 <andythenorth> so on AWS lambda 17:27:26 <andythenorth> what's a good case? 17:27:37 <TrueBrain> any REST API tbh 17:27:40 <andythenorth> I assumed it was for things like 'render this PDF from this input I'm passing' 17:27:58 <nielsm> you need a language where a single source file compiles to a full distributed system of many elements 17:28:02 <TrueBrain> I guess it could work for that too ... but often lambdas are very small pieces of work 17:28:20 <andythenorth> the nanoservices example I saw was much closer to 'convert this int to a string' 17:28:23 <TrueBrain> but I think most of the webshops etc can be done in lambdas 17:28:30 <andythenorth> or 'add this value to a list' 17:28:35 <TrueBrain> at a certain point your overhead wins 17:28:50 <TrueBrain> so there is a line you dont want to cross 17:29:05 <TrueBrain> if you do good system design, you have a presentation layer, application layer and data layer 17:29:15 <TrueBrain> in each layer are a lot of entries (APIs) 17:29:21 <TrueBrain> in the data layer for example: create_user 17:29:23 <peter1138> Is it dinner time yet? 17:29:33 <TrueBrain> in the application layer: if (is_admin) create_user 17:29:35 <andythenorth> peter1138: definitely 17:29:39 <andythenorth> deliveroo eh? 17:29:42 <TrueBrain> in the presentation layer an HTML website to create a user if you are admin 17:29:47 <TrueBrain> all these API entries, can be lambdas 17:29:53 <peter1138> Oh god no, I am not made of money. 17:29:53 <TrueBrain> but going any smaller ... I doubt that helps 17:31:10 *** frosch123 has joined #openttd 17:31:26 <nielsm> in my (limited) experience the border between what should be "application" and what should be "data" layer is really blurry 17:32:13 <TrueBrain> it shouldn't; but I often notice people do have trouble finding the line 17:32:18 <nielsm> so even when you try to split it up you get a tight coupliung 17:32:28 <TrueBrain> as the application layer answers business questions 17:32:37 <TrueBrain> and the data layer answers "data" questions, or "service" 17:33:24 <TrueBrain> but yeah ... if the line becomes blurry, just stop making the separation :) 17:33:37 <TrueBrain> for most small projects it is also a non-issue .. just use an ORM, and you will be fine 17:33:42 <andythenorth> Alberth: Eddi|zuHause I tried 'Petrochemical Intermediate Feedstocks' :P http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html#extreme 17:33:46 <TrueBrain> only for really big projects you want those layers to be far apart :) 17:34:14 <TrueBrain> (as you will want to replace that MySQL with Postgres, without rewriting EVERYTHING) 17:34:50 <TrueBrain> but then you have architects, and they should know how to make layer separation clear to anyone, and everything goes fine :D 17:34:56 <Alberth> andythenorth: XML Parsing Error: mismatched tag. Expected: </g>. Location: http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/extreme.dot.svg Line Number 742, Column 3: 17:35:12 <TrueBrain> that line 742 .. always the same one ... 17:35:17 <TrueBrain> we had this talk with him many times 17:35:20 <TrueBrain> but he doesnt want to listen 17:35:26 <Alberth> :o 17:35:50 <Alberth> stubborn line eh? better remove it andy 17:36:24 <andythenorth> I am curious about that, I don't get the parse error in chrome :) 17:36:35 <andythenorth> nor FF 17:36:47 <andythenorth> oh and the zoom tool is working agan 17:36:50 <andythenorth> again * 17:36:53 <Alberth> right, I do use ff :p 17:37:08 <andythenorth> I spent last week chasing a rendering bug in webkit that keeps disappearing 17:37:15 <andythenorth> so we can't repro it in QA 17:37:29 <Alberth> </a> 17:37:29 <Alberth> --^ 17:37:35 <Alberth> more hints :) 17:37:50 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd 17:38:33 <Wolf01> So I'm more poor of 500€, and more rich of 2 Voltron, some motors and a bag of parts I need 17:39:28 <Alberth> file looks ok 17:40:16 <andythenorth> Wolf01: :o 17:40:59 <Wolf01> Nasty 40T gears... they cost a lot, more than 8€ only for them :[ 17:41:49 <Alberth> 'reload' resolves the problem 17:53:18 <Alberth> at least it's extreme in cargo names already :) 17:53:38 <Alberth> but stuff does make sense to me 17:54:18 <peter1138> TrueBrain, hmm, can the commit linter check for this like versioned files being modified? 17:54:34 <TrueBrain> holy crap, that sentence! 17:54:40 <TrueBrain> do you supply a lexer with that? 17:55:11 <peter1138> TrueBrain, hmm, can the commit linter check for versioned files being modified during build? 17:55:27 <TrueBrain> "versioned files" 17:55:30 <TrueBrain> no clue :) 17:55:34 <Alberth> stuff in git 17:55:39 <peter1138> version controlled 17:56:10 <TrueBrain> yeah, there were a few other options there :) Like savegame revision, etc :) 17:56:13 <Alberth> ie you want a check that at least one file is being changed? 17:56:54 <TrueBrain> and I guess "commit linter" is you jumping to a solution, so I guess the question is: can the CI detect that is a file in git is changed after build? 17:57:05 <Eddi|zuHause> you mean like it checks whether projects/generate produces a change in project files? 17:57:06 <peter1138> jesus fucking christ 17:57:09 *** peter1138 has left #openttd 17:57:15 <TrueBrain> okay ... sorry I am not as smart as you 17:57:18 <TrueBrain> holy mozy .. 17:58:09 <TrueBrain> guess next time I will not take the effort to understand him or something (?) 17:58:11 <Alberth> that sentence was clearly too difficult for us 17:58:52 <TrueBrain> seriously wondering if it is me, but I fail to see how .. or am I this alienated that I would like to know the question before answering? 17:59:24 <Alberth> or understand the problem, that might help too :) 18:00:06 <TrueBrain> always makes me giggle at work, people come to me with a solution .. than you have to backtrack to the problem .. which can take some significant amount of time :D 18:01:01 <Eddi|zuHause> i can't count the number of times i answered forum posts with "... and which problem exactly is that meant to solve?" 18:05:00 <andythenorth> yeah 18:05:00 <andythenorth> but 18:05:17 <andythenorth> sometimes it's hard to formulate the problem 18:05:27 <andythenorth> and easy to get stuck on a possible solution 18:05:33 <TrueBrain> a human is poorly build to give a problem :) 18:05:34 <andythenorth> "if I could only do x then..." 18:05:46 <andythenorth> so it becomes 'how to get x', not 'why do x' 18:05:48 <TrueBrain> that is why it is important to take the time to walk back to the problem :) 18:06:02 <andythenorth> ok let's play this game 18:06:19 <andythenorth> can anyone find me a picture of a Copper Naphthenate production plant 18:06:20 <andythenorth> ? 18:06:35 <TrueBrain> lazy much? :P 18:06:41 <andythenorth> no you have to ask 'why' 18:06:47 <TrueBrain> owh! 18:06:49 <TrueBrain> why? 18:07:18 <andythenorth> because I want to know if it looks like this http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/industries.html#lumber_yard 18:07:26 <TrueBrain> why? 18:07:39 <andythenorth> because that industry already exists in FIRS 18:07:53 <TrueBrain> why? 18:07:54 <andythenorth> and it needs a chemical input 18:08:12 <andythenorth> it exists to give a wood -> engineering supplies chain 18:08:19 <TrueBrain> why? 18:08:25 <andythenorth> because IRL mines need pit props 18:08:28 <TrueBrain> why? 18:08:31 <TrueBrain> (this game is a bit boring) 18:08:36 <andythenorth> did you do 5 yet? 18:08:42 <andythenorth> ok we win 18:08:47 <TrueBrain> \o/ 18:08:54 <andythenorth> prizes all round 18:09:03 <andythenorth> shall I just delete the industry? 18:10:08 <TrueBrain> I refuse to answer that question! 18:10:54 <andythenorth> it's ok, I'm googling :P 18:10:59 <andythenorth> google will tell me the answer 18:12:07 <Wolf01> http://www.abellon.net/MILS/ <- Lego OTTD anyone? 18:12:58 <TrueBrain> cool :D 18:25:52 *** tokai|noir has joined #openttd 18:25:52 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai|noir 18:26:42 <TrueBrain> frosch123: PR # 6863, if you happen to have time, do we do that for all windows? (in other words, PR looks okay to you too?) 18:31:06 <frosch123> i think we do that for all windows 18:31:16 <frosch123> there is a script to generate script_window.hpp 18:32:22 <frosch123> we even do it for the intro_gui 18:32:26 *** tokai has quit IRC 18:32:32 <frosch123> and highscore_gui 18:32:36 <frosch123> so, quite sure for all :) 18:33:01 <TrueBrain> cool, tnx :D 18:33:24 <TrueBrain> if you dont touch code long enough, it is better to validate these things :D 18:33:36 <TrueBrain> but I see michi_cc beat me to it :P 18:37:49 *** gelignite has joined #openttd 18:39:40 <frosch123> hmm, i wonder how long i can ignore the fact that i have to get up at 5 am tomorrow :/ 18:40:00 <frosch123> though i worry that andy does that every day :p 18:41:22 <TrueBrain> lol :D 18:41:27 <TrueBrain> why so early? Sounds horrible .. 18:41:45 <TrueBrain> okay, landscape.html is a bit weird .. it says: "see signals", which I cannot find .. 18:42:11 <andythenorth> I used to do that 18:42:14 <andythenorth> no longer 18:42:23 <andythenorth> 6am-7am most days 18:42:47 <frosch123> i have a meeting at 10am, 600km away 18:43:20 <TrueBrain> oef 18:43:22 <TrueBrain> good luck :s 18:43:25 <LordAro> lovely 18:45:58 <TrueBrain> frosch123: in saveload.cpp is this list of savegame versions and their svn number; now we no longer have that, it is empty 18:46:21 <TrueBrain> which leads to "clean" merges which should happen (paraphrasing peter1138 here) 18:46:29 <TrueBrain> do we want to add the PR there or something? 18:46:33 <frosch123> the list is used to know the savegame version of stable branches 18:46:40 <michi_cc> TrueBrain: Next time, make him do the work himself. 18:46:43 <frosch123> the numbers in between are just for the looks 18:47:04 <TrueBrain> michi_cc: who? JGR or nielsm? :) 18:47:13 <TrueBrain> frosch123: so better to remove those? 18:47:16 <michi_cc> nielsm in this case. 18:47:24 <TrueBrain> michi_cc: I agree; frosch123: you too? :) 18:47:42 <frosch123> no idea, did not follow :) 18:47:56 <TrueBrain> sorry, 2 conversations at once 18:48:01 <TrueBrain> let me branch of one of them 18:50:10 *** Maraxus has joined #openttd 18:55:21 *** Maraxus has quit IRC 19:01:03 <TrueBrain> about to approve adding m8 to the map .. somehow that feels a bit scary .. 19:01:12 <TrueBrain> we really need nightlies for the testing :D 19:01:46 *** Alberth has left #openttd 19:02:16 <andythenorth> yair :) 19:02:21 <andythenorth> is someone working on that? o_O 19:02:41 <TrueBrain> *looks around* 19:02:44 <TrueBrain> *looks in the mirror* 19:02:46 <TrueBrain> *CRAP* 19:04:59 <Wolf01> <TrueBrain> we really need nightlies for the testing :D <- make a patchpack 19:05:30 <TrueBrain> yeah, and ask someone to compile it 19:05:33 <TrueBrain> and put that somewhere 19:05:36 <TrueBrain> and publish that link :P 19:05:55 <TrueBrain> I am a bit annoyed that the old CF is offline .. but okay .. with the CD working, it should go a bit faster 19:06:03 <nielsm> nightlies should possibly also include open PRs? 19:06:04 <TrueBrain> just this weather ... I work so poorly in this weatherrrrrrrrrrr 19:06:15 <TrueBrain> nielsm: the idea is, for me at least, that you can say: @dorpsgek create binaries 19:06:25 <TrueBrain> and that he posts links to binaries after a while, for that version of the PR 19:06:29 <TrueBrain> so on demand 19:06:34 <nielsm> right 19:06:46 <TrueBrain> if you have better/smarter ideas, I would love to hear it :D 19:06:50 <nielsm> so as PR author you can state "ready for testing" 19:06:59 <TrueBrain> yup! 19:07:07 <TrueBrain> lot of unanswered questions, like who can request the binaries 19:07:31 <TrueBrain> but also possibly it is just easier to publish them for every PR 19:07:51 <TrueBrain> not sure yet, if it should be on-demand or not 19:08:00 <TrueBrain> from a security perspective, I rather have a dev can only request it :) 19:08:09 <nielsm> yeah I thought about, if the PR passes CI checks just publish the resulting builds? 19:08:16 *** Wacko1976 has joined #openttd 19:08:19 <nielsm> ah good point 19:08:21 <nielsm> yeah 19:08:40 <TrueBrain> (you don't want to publish binaries that, looking at the PR, bricks peoples machine :D) 19:08:45 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: how hot is it there? 19:08:50 <TrueBrain> I am a bit paranoid in those regards ;) 19:08:56 <TrueBrain> it was 28 degrees 30 minutes ago 19:08:58 <TrueBrain> cooling down now 19:09:27 <andythenorth> only 21 here 19:09:32 <andythenorth> bit lame 19:09:37 <nielsm> also a way to re-request a new build when master has moved since the last CI run 19:10:16 <michi_cc> nielsm: You IRC client should be telling you something. 19:10:23 <TrueBrain> DorpsGek-github allows all that nielsm; I just need someone to add it :D 19:14:15 <andythenorth> ho ho 19:14:27 <TrueBrain> christmas time? 19:14:49 <andythenorth> found a bonza cargo 19:15:01 <andythenorth> I like it when RL validates what I need to do in game 19:21:59 *** glx has joined #openttd 19:21:59 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v glx 19:23:32 <TrueBrain> right, time to watch a movie or something; nn! 19:25:03 <andythenorth> bye TB 19:32:35 <andythenorth> so 3 industry outputs then? o_O 19:41:56 *** frosch123 has quit IRC 19:48:10 *** Wacko1976 has quit IRC 19:48:32 *** Wacko1976 has joined #openttd 19:49:54 *** luaduck has joined #openttd 20:11:14 <Eddi|zuHause> 64 industry outputs you mean? 20:11:25 <andythenorth> that's a nice idea 20:11:33 <andythenorth> but I think the industry window might not work very well 20:11:45 <andythenorth> the logical route now is 'no constraints' 20:11:48 <Eddi|zuHause> 1 industry that accepts all cargos 20:11:48 <andythenorth> right? 20:11:53 <Eddi|zuHause> and produces all cargos 20:12:25 <Wolf01> :D 20:12:26 <Eddi|zuHause> dunno, sometimes constraints lead to creativity. sometimes they're just stupid 20:12:47 <Wolf01> Like Pokémon with the 4 moves constraint 20:13:13 <Eddi|zuHause> i have no clue what that is 20:13:22 <Eddi|zuHause> or which of those two categories :p 20:14:01 <Wolf01> http://rarecandytreatment.smackjeeves.com/comics/1019152/brink-of-mentality/ 20:15:53 <andythenorth> I could patch FIRS to model 64 outputs 20:15:58 <andythenorth> and see whether it's stupid 20:16:17 <andythenorth> I think it ends in giant industries like: 20:17:35 <Eddi|zuHause> add more cargos that must be delivered in tiny quantities, so you need shunting and cargodist both working simultaneously :p 20:18:47 <andythenorth> oil refinery complex: accepts oil; produces: bitumen, ethylene, BTX, gasoline, ammonia, propylene, sulfur, petcoke 20:19:29 <andythenorth> steelworks: accepts: coal, iron ore, limestone, scrap metal, alloys, acid: produces: steel, slag 20:19:48 <andythenorth> also tar, sulphur, ammonia 20:20:32 <andythenorth> eh with shunting and cdist, could just leave wagons there filling up 20:20:37 <andythenorth> is shunting for RVs too? 20:20:40 <andythenorth> and container ships? 20:21:42 <Wolf01> Shunting container ships? 20:21:47 <andythenorth> yes 20:23:48 <Wolf01> You could make 20x20 tiles industries and abuse of tile acceptance 20:24:27 <nielsm> I still think multi-part industries (or sub-industries?) could be a neat solution 20:24:56 <andythenorth> o_O? 20:25:06 <andythenorth> I suggest pipelines + conveyors :P 20:25:11 <andythenorth> whole new transport type 20:25:28 <Wolf01> Use NRT for that 20:26:13 <andythenorth> nielsm: what's the proposal? 20:26:53 <nielsm> my idea is to introduce a CB when an industry is built, where the industry returns that it also wants these N other industries of types A,B,C built nearby 20:27:07 <nielsm> (and if those can't be built too, building of the main fails) 20:27:22 <andythenorth> cascading 20:27:25 <nielsm> the sub-industries become linked to the main and they have some shared data 20:29:34 <nielsm> otoh it probably complicates opening/closing rules too much so just having a mega-industry might be better 20:29:48 <andythenorth> do a 64 cargos patch? o_O 20:29:58 <nielsm> though maybe allow some flexibility with multi building complexes where all buildings don't need to be on the same level 20:30:03 <nielsm> (is that already supported?) 20:30:12 <andythenorth> on the same tile? 20:30:16 <andythenorth> tile height /s 20:30:37 <andythenorth> tile height is arbitrary, unless the newgrf enforces flat 20:30:56 <andythenorth> however there's no reliable terraforming, which can be a problem 20:31:54 <nielsm> so some manner of sub-buildings that are placed separately from the main building, but become part of the same industry entity at the end 20:32:03 <nielsm> could still be a useful extra feature 20:32:05 <nielsm> ? 20:33:27 <nielsm> it could also give much more randomisation of industry layouts if the game is allowed to place several buildings randomly around an area 20:34:32 <andythenorth> might work 20:34:43 <andythenorth> I think that can already be approximated with the layouts 20:34:52 <andythenorth> provide enough layouts, similar result 20:37:39 <nielsm> in my idea, every sub-building provides its own layouts, so with multiple sub-buildings, each which has a random layout picked, and a random position picked, you get explosive growth of possible final layouts 20:39:07 <andythenorth> yes 20:39:09 <andythenorth> I am +1 to it 20:39:23 <andythenorth> I just wonder if it's a lot of work for you that can be faked anyway already :) 20:42:08 <andythenorth> hmm 20:42:15 <andythenorth> 'pigments' cargo? 20:44:07 <nielsm> where would it be produced? 20:44:43 <nielsm> some kind of chemistry lab? 20:47:12 <andythenorth> imported 20:47:22 <andythenorth> the great solution to all FIRS problems 20:47:28 <nielsm> lol 20:53:50 <nielsm> have an additional "minerals" cargo that every mine type industry produces, and have it processed in large quantities to produce all sorts of minor products 20:54:03 <nielsm> maybe also "hifi equipment" 20:56:10 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but how do you unify things like TiO2 (white) and C (black)? 20:56:32 <andythenorth> I added carbon black to steeltown :P 20:56:34 <andythenorth> for tyres 20:56:41 <andythenorth> but it was too niche, so I deleted it 20:57:32 <Eddi|zuHause> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanium_dioxide 20:59:48 <andythenorth> I have this in my loft somewhere https://i.ytimg.com/vi/sUEazMMNCK4/maxresdefault.jpg 21:00:23 <andythenorth> I did have mineral sands or something, but I deleted 21:00:30 <andythenorth> or maybe that was rare earth metals 21:00:33 <Eddi|zuHause> something for V, give each pigment colour a matching wagon colour :p 21:01:00 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not sure that TiO2 constitutes a rare earth 21:02:39 <andythenorth> so 21:02:50 <andythenorth> how do I get creosote? 21:02:53 <andythenorth> or shouldn't I? 21:06:37 <andythenorth> ha ha 21:06:53 <andythenorth> I should add 'xyz byproducts' cargo to lots of industries 21:07:12 <andythenorth> then split them in a 'xyz byproducts processor' 21:07:15 <andythenorth> then repeat 21:07:22 <andythenorth> it's like pairing transistors :P 21:07:48 <andythenorth> http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html#extreme 21:08:04 <andythenorth> the food chain is now almost divorced from industry chain, which is nice 21:26:07 *** nielsm has quit IRC 21:42:14 *** andythenorth has left #openttd 21:45:29 *** Progman has quit IRC 21:51:27 <Wolf01> 'night 21:51:31 *** Wolf01 has quit IRC 22:02:44 *** Mazur has quit IRC 22:04:04 *** keoz has quit IRC 22:11:25 *** Mazur has joined #openttd 22:24:15 *** Wormnest has quit IRC 22:25:00 *** gelignite has quit IRC 22:45:28 *** HerzogDeXtEr has quit IRC 23:37:07 *** Wacko1976 has quit IRC