Log for #openttd on 25th July 2018:
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00:08:41  <peter1138> packet, not package.
00:22:37  <Eddi|zuHause> really, those are the same word for me
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00:26:50  <peter1138> Yeah, but they're not.
00:34:48  <Eddi|zuHause> possibly, but you won't change that :p
00:35:48  <peter1138> Networks deal with packets.
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00:49:02  <Eddi|zuHause> and tommorrow it's about installing stuff and it's the other way around. still the same word for me
00:49:26  <snail_UES_> peter1138: I saw the activity over at ...
00:49:40  <snail_UES_> so is this going to be part of trunk?
01:02:54  <Eddi|zuHause> possibly...
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01:03:39  <Eddi|zuHause> but also it could be another "... i had a patch for that" in 10 years :p
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05:55:38  <andythenorth> moin
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08:49:02  <andythenorth> soof
08:49:08  <andythenorth> petrochem economy in FIRS
08:49:10  <andythenorth> would be great
08:49:49  <V453000> dame
08:50:27  <andythenorth> what if I deleted supplies?
08:50:34  <andythenorth> and primaries needed specific inputs?
08:51:05  <V453000> would definitely make for an intersting economy, but one of the benefits to the supplies is that it's kind of clear that they do that
08:51:52  <andythenorth> yeah
08:51:55  <andythenorth> so no frac sand then
08:52:01  <andythenorth> and no POOP to arable farms
08:52:15  <V453000> xd
08:52:35  <andythenorth> but petrochem
08:52:40  <andythenorth> 'BTX' cargo
08:52:44  <andythenorth> and other silly names
08:53:23  <andythenorth> bbl
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08:55:25  <Arveen> did i read poop cargo ?
08:55:50  <V453000> haha
08:55:52  <SpComb> no, it's fertilizer
08:56:59  <Arveen> ah, ok then
09:00:07  <FLHerne> I don't think having 64 railtypes on the current model would be sane...
09:01:24  <FLHerne> (but then I don't think 64 cargos is sane, and that's being done)
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09:56:18  <peter1138> Can you describe an alternative model?
09:57:12  <andythenorth> it doesn't matter if it's sane :)
09:57:14  <andythenorth> but eh
09:57:35  <andythenorth> it's content, so the player retains the choice to *not use them*
09:57:47  <andythenorth> I think we agonised too long about arbitrary restrictions on content
09:58:24  <andythenorth> I can use Comic Sans on my Mac, even though Jobs was a vitriolic font nerd
09:58:33  <SpComb> is there a "download and activate all" button in the bananas/newgrf UI? :)
09:58:41  <andythenorth> boom
09:59:31  <SpComb> download all the railsets!
09:59:45  <SpComb> I remember seeing a screenshot of the resulting dropdown
10:03:11  <peter1138> Probably posted by me.
10:03:29  <peter1138> And probably caused the set authors to cry.
10:17:33  <andythenorth> so 64 inputs and 64 outputs per industry? o_O
10:18:29  <peter1138> Hmm, need to pick up that vehicle list stuff that was discussed a month or two ago.
10:20:25  <andythenorth> oh that was nice
10:20:34  <andythenorth> it will unleash all kinds of crazy
10:20:43  <peter1138> Even that had arguments about what it was ;(
10:20:45  <andythenorth> so many ways to use that for BAD FEATURES
10:20:56  <andythenorth> it was the grouping IDs no?
10:21:19  <andythenorth> and then [mumble mumble] about how auto-replace can work with that
10:21:37  <andythenorth> wavey hands a bit, and all is well
10:22:51  <peter1138> Making up features no user nor dev wants, woo.
10:23:02  <peter1138> More railtypes? It's not sane.
10:25:29  <andythenorth> but we can
10:25:37  <andythenorth> mumble user needs
10:25:49  <andythenorth> mumble don't do engineering for engineering's sake
10:25:54  <andythenorth> but where's the fun in that :P
10:26:06  <andythenorth> we're not building the tax return system here
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10:52:04  <Eddi|zuHause> we could have 64 railtypes and still enforce 16 per grf :p
10:52:55  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm sure encouraging users to add multiple railtype GRFs simultaneously will not cause any problems at all :p
10:54:09  <mikegrb> hah
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11:22:37  <FLHerne> peter1138: Having speed limits, electrification, and/or gauge be orthogonal would make it less absurd
11:22:51  <FLHerne> But then there are the people who want weight limits
11:23:36  <peter1138> That old chestnut.
11:23:51  <peter1138> No, electrification and gauge are definitely part of the railtype definition.
11:24:18  <peter1138> Speed limits sure.
11:26:28  <peter1138> Not even sure about that.
11:27:22  <andythenorth> I'm fine with the absurdity
11:27:25  <andythenorth> it is what it is
11:27:41  <andythenorth> if we'd split electrification from day 0, maybe it would be different, but eh
11:27:48  <FLHerne> Perhaps it's just a UI thing
11:27:53  <peter1138> Problem with having all those things as separate features is you 1-take space away and enforce that space has to be used for those features (or wasted) and 2-combinatorial hell, 3-who defines what is what.
11:28:00  <andythenorth> and UI
11:28:08  <andythenorth> UI is a cluster fuck either way
11:28:13  <peter1138> andythenorth, no, electrification can't be split
11:28:20  <peter1138> electrification is not binary
11:28:23  <FLHerne> If track-types could be categorised like NewObjects, vast numbers of them would be less overwhelming
11:28:24  <andythenorth> oh yeah that
11:28:26  <andythenorth> ok
11:28:31  <peter1138> it's not yes or no
11:28:35  <andythenorth> well let's make groups for vehicle IDs
11:28:45  <andythenorth> railtypes is for the best in this best of all possible worlds
11:28:53  <andythenorth> but cargo subtypes are made of ass
11:28:59  <FLHerne> peter1138: If it was only catenary, splitting it as an overlay thing would still work reasonably
11:29:07  <peter1138> but it's NOT only catenary.
11:29:21  <FLHerne> But I can't see how third-rails could work that way
11:29:23  <FLHerne> (yes)
11:29:27  <peter1138> 4th rails
11:29:31  <peter1138> different voltage systems
11:29:59  <FLHerne> peter1138: I think different-voltage catenary would be fine
11:30:19  <peter1138> but if electrification is just a flag... then you can't have that
11:30:20  * andythenorth wonders about discussing things that are moot :)
11:30:21  <FLHerne> peter1138: "Build catenary" could have a 15kV/25kV/both dropdown
11:30:32  <peter1138> AC/DC it's okay by me
11:30:34  <peter1138> Oh fuck that
11:30:38  <andythenorth> 64 output cargos per industry? :)
11:30:43  <FLHerne> And the sprites aren't really affected by track type
11:30:57  <FLHerne> But third-rail really has to be part of the track sprite
11:31:27  <peter1138> I can switch and change my frequency.
11:31:32  <FLHerne> Hm, "build catenary" isn't quite what I was envisaging
11:32:17  <FLHerne> More like a dropdown "catenary: none, 1500VDC, 25kVAC, both" while building rails or using the conversion tool
11:32:32  <FLHerne> (but it still doesn't really work)
11:32:33  <peter1138> Anyway, last time we discussed this it came down to being totally a UI thing, and separate rail types is totally appropriate.
11:32:40  <peter1138> TOTALLY hah
11:33:49  <FLHerne> I guess that could extend to sub-railtypes generally, and leave the policy to newgrf
11:33:50  <peter1138> (And in that case, increasing to 64 types is just a stepping stone)
11:33:59  <peter1138> No, there are no sub-railtypes
11:34:03  <andythenorth> RAILTYPE GROUPS
11:34:07  <peter1138> FFS
11:34:10  <andythenorth> SAY IT LOUDER
11:34:25  <andythenorth> is it lunchtime yet?
11:34:55  <FLHerne> So the newgrf could define "90mph standard rail" with different kinds of electrication, or "25kV rail" with different speed limits, and let authors fight out which was better
11:35:14  * andythenorth back to work :P
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11:35:44  <FLHerne> (I do find the one flat list very annoying)
11:36:53  <FLHerne> More of a UI-presentation thing than trying to make railtypes combine or inherit things, which is silly
11:37:31  <peter1138> Yeah. That's why cargo subtypes are a flop.
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11:38:25  <peter1138> Of course, cargo subtypes are not even an attribute of cargo types, they are defined by vehicles... o_O
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11:53:56  <Eddi|zuHause> "cargo subtypes" are a complete misnomer
11:54:51  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe "vehicle subtypes" or "transportation subtypes"
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13:37:23  <supermop_work> yo
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13:48:55  <cccyRegeaneWolfe> Hey, I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard
13:48:59  <cccyRegeaneWolfe> or maybe this blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout
13:49:03  <cccyRegeaneWolfe> Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal
13:49:07  <cccyRegeaneWolfe> Voice your opinions at
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14:04:04  <Eddi|zuHause> i think the spammers are mutating
14:05:09  <gregf> they are, yes
14:05:37  <nielsm> what kind of smear campaign is this anyway? I'm not clicking any of the links
14:06:13  <gregf> why not?
14:06:23  <gregf> the links seem pretty legit
14:06:31  <Eddi|zuHause> who knows, but the previous of these spams were from "amazon web services" hosts
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14:07:03  <gregf> this makes the blogs look pretty legit
14:09:27  <Eddi|zuHause> that still doesn't mean you should give spammers more reason to exist by actually reacting to them
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14:13:55  <Yotson> It seem to be so called Joe Job spam. Freenode had some at the end of last year as well.
14:14:00  <Yotson>
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14:31:54  <SpComb> TF has normal rail and high-speed rail, both with caternary... early-game trains can drive on both, so it's nice in terms of gameplay because it lets you gradually upgrade in the mid-game... what does 1500VDC vs 25kVAC even mean in terms of gameplay? Sounds like what you'd end up with if you mixed two different train sets on the same map
14:32:27  <SpComb> I mean, you can build the TGV and have it drive on normal rail, it'll just be limited to 120km/h
14:32:50  <gregf> Tharbakim debdog michi_cc Rubidium tyteen4a03 Hirundo SpComb rocky113844 Smedles masse Eddi|zuHause hrmny XeryusTC angguss[m] Alkel_U3 KouDy supermop_work greeter Maarten gregf Heiki Sacro argoneus Exec colde ccfreak2k Osai rocky1138 Westie avdg LordAro nauticalnexus APTX_ Mek Yexo murr4y gnu_jj
14:32:51  <gregf> Wacko1976 TrueBrain Flygon techmagus OsteHovel IgnoredAmbience cHawk orudge TinoDidriksen juzza1 LJ Antheus gas1[m] Mazur keoz urdh Sylf peter1138 crem2 tokai Extrems luaduck V453000 DorpsGek johnwhitlow[m] Hazzard Compu HeyCitizen Yotson manila[m] blathijs ^Spike^ pixeldanger[m] Terkhen Agiri[m]
14:32:51  <gregf> grossing Markk dihedral triolus[m] mikegrb Wacko1976-work Arveen Lejving_ FLHerne quiznilo Laedek mindlesstux tneo Mahjong nielsm reldred _dp_ Ammler vlanik2[m] Taede berndj SmatZ heffer fonsinchen swimstar[m] planetmaker dvim Webster cute[m] chomwitt UncleCJ KenjiE20
14:32:53  <gregf> Hey, I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard
14:32:53  <gregf> or maybe this blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout
14:32:53  <gregf> Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal
14:32:53  <gregf> Voice your opinions at
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14:33:14  <Alberth> hi
14:33:25  <Eddi|zuHause> so much for "legit links"
14:33:39  <colde> Damn, it's started here now as well
14:33:46  <crem2> They even found my private IRC for logs collecting where I'm literally alone!
14:35:29  <colde> Ops might want to set +M proactively
14:35:37  <colde> i suspect they will be back
14:35:44  <crem2> It's far from annoying rate for now.
14:35:56  <Eddi|zuHause> +r?
14:36:01  <Eddi|zuHause> or was it +R?
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14:39:13  <colde> Eddi|zuHause: +R prevents them from join, +M only prevents them from speaking, so it's the least intrusive way to stop them afaik
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14:39:45  <Eddi|zuHause> but +M will prevent everone else from speaking as well
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14:40:11  <crem2> But is there really anything to discuss?
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14:42:55  <nielsm> SpComb, afaik early electric railways were DC because those motors were cheaper or whatever, then later AC took over, but modern electric motors are variable frequency so AC line will get rectified and re-inverted at variable frequency
14:43:28  <nielsm> (so a modern multi-system elctric locotmotive just has a few different input stages to switch between)
14:43:50  <SpComb> newer AC trains can drive on older DC track?
14:44:11  <nielsm> but the simplified model of electrification every TT-like game has makes it difficult to give these differences gameplay meaning
14:44:12  <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: it's complicated...
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14:45:32  <nielsm>
14:45:34  <Eddi|zuHause> DC is easier to construct, but has problems with long distances
14:45:47  <nielsm> you have locos capable of running on most of those systems just with a switch
14:46:22  <SpComb> why would you want to build multiple incompatible electification systems in the same game of OpenTTD :P
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14:46:56  <nielsm> yes see it's difficult to implement good gameplay around systems where the player knows a choice is dead end
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14:47:04  <Eddi|zuHause> the early AC locomotives had problems with sparks in each phase, so they chose a lowered frequency
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14:47:11  <nielsm> but historically the people implementing it didn't know it would be
14:47:25  <Eddi|zuHause> the countries which adopted AC later, chose the normal frequency
14:47:30  <SpComb> I just hope there's more to NRT than just forcing you to rebuild track at some point in the game
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14:48:05  <nielsm> very few places have changed electrification system of an entire railroad
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14:48:07  <SpComb> like the original rail/monorail/maglev... electrified rail makes so much more sense
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14:48:33  <nielsm> usually you just keep building new engines to run on the old system
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14:49:29  <Eddi|zuHause> the original monrail/maglev has mainly the problem that standard rail lost all the vehicles at some point, so you had to switch
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14:50:16  <SpComb> main problem I see is that you can't upgrade from rail to maglev in-place, you need to replace all the trains too
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14:50:36  <nielsm> yeah you can't do that in reality either
14:50:43  <Eddi|zuHause> there's two problems with that
14:50:53  <Eddi|zuHause> a) you shouldn't have to do that replacement
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14:51:10  <Eddi|zuHause> b) you probably don't want that replacement to be 1:1, you need much fewer trains after conversion
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14:51:23  <nielsm> but in reality you can do partial upgrades of a conventional rail system, as long as the basic track remains compatible
14:51:28  <nielsm> ugh so much join/kill spam
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14:51:52  <Eddi|zuHause> i have join/leave messages disabled for people who never spoke
14:52:05  <SpComb> yeah, that's what I mean by the TTDPatch/OpenTTD eletrification / TF high-speed rail upgrade being better in terms of gameplay
14:52:46  <nielsm> but the cost of those upgrades are almost insignificant in my experience
14:52:55  <nielsm> making them a no questions good choice
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14:54:01  <nielsm> and then the distinction between non-/electrified rail becomes pointless anyway
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14:54:24  <nielsm> if you play with infrastructure maintenance costs and the maintenance cost of electrified rail is actually significantly higher, then it might become interesting
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14:54:39  <nielsm> also if you had to build and manage the electric substation infrastructure
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15:02:29  <timvisher> Hey, I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard
15:02:30  *** limbo_ has joined #openttd
15:02:32  <timvisher> or maybe this blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout
15:02:36  <timvisher> Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal
15:02:39  <timvisher> Voice your opinions at
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15:51:51  <andythenorth> pigment mine? o_O
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15:52:18  <nielsm> I think most minerals need some additional processing to be useful as pigments
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15:53:07  <andythenorth> that's ok
15:53:12  <andythenorth> I have sulfuric acid :P
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15:59:51  <nielsm> uh huh? there is industry_type.h and then industrytype.h
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16:06:03  <planetmaker> nielsm, I guess there's a difference between industry types (as in different industries) and industry types (as in type definitions concerning industries). But it's rather... hand-wavy
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16:09:30  <Eddi|zuHause> nielsm: *_type.h is for C++-types concerning *
16:09:55  <Eddi|zuHause> nielsm: and industrytype.h is about actual industrytypes
16:10:39  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think i ever looked at either file
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16:26:51  <peter1138> nielsm, similar for cargo and rail :D
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16:27:23  <Tony> hoody doody folks
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16:34:51  <LordAro> maybe should consider +R again?
16:35:43  <nielsm> yeah
16:35:46  <nielsm> please
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16:50:09  <iooner> Hey, I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard
16:50:12  <iooner> or maybe this blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout
16:50:16  <iooner> Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal
16:50:19  <iooner> Voice your opinions at
16:51:08  <nielsm> LordAro: please? :)
16:51:18  <nielsm> or peter1138? :)
16:51:41  <andythenorth> is it a bot again?
16:51:54  <andythenorth> like a really polite bot?
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16:52:44  <LordAro> nielsm: i would if i could
16:52:55  <LordAro> anyone with op can
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17:10:32  *** peter1138 sets mode: +R 
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17:22:31  <nielsm> oh where did andy go... had something for him to play with
17:22:32  <nielsm>
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17:27:36  <frosch123> @mode -R
17:27:36  *** DorpsGek sets mode: -R 
17:28:12  <nielsm> frosch123: there's a large number of spambots constantly joining and getting killed by the network, +R was put back to limit join/part spam
17:28:26  <frosch123> oh, i thought i had forgotton it :p
17:28:29  <frosch123> @mode +R
17:28:29  *** DorpsGek sets mode: +R 
17:28:38  <LordAro> frosch123: you did, TB removed it :p
17:28:47  <LordAro> quak
17:29:15  <ilera> i have a blind friend who's unable to use nickserv because of his disability and can't join the channel now :(
17:30:05  <LordAro> can use irc but cannot use nickserv?
17:30:10  <LordAro> bit weird
17:30:33  <ilera> yes, but he's disabled
17:30:52  <ilera> nickserv is not very accessible
17:30:56  <LordAro> i did read your previous message, yes
17:31:13  <LordAro> just as accessible as normal text, i would say
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17:34:23  <andythenorth> o/
17:35:02  <nielsm> hi andythenorth, here's something for you to play with:
17:35:14  <andythenorth> ha ha
17:35:30  <andythenorth> that diverts my evening :P
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17:48:51  <nielsm> andythenorth: I'm not sure if anything else needs to be done for it to also work with newgrf so please report back :D
17:49:10  <andythenorth> I'll need to patch some stuff locally probs
17:49:20  <andythenorth> let's see
17:49:33  <nielsm> ah nmlc patch again maybe?
17:49:57  <andythenorth> maybe
17:50:00  <andythenorth> we'll see
17:50:21  * andythenorth building
17:54:42  <andythenorth> nmlc ERROR: "generated/firs.nml", line 219485: Cargo list must be an array with no more than 2 values
17:54:46  <andythenorth> yeah I need to patch that
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18:07:45  <nielsm> okay this is wrong
18:16:05  <nielsm> fixed that, and then hacked in this
18:16:31  <andythenorth> it's attractive now eh :D
18:16:39  <nielsm> burn all the stuff
18:17:03  * andythenorth tries to fix nmlc
18:19:20  <andythenorth> hopefully trivial
18:20:07  <andythenorth> it's weird
18:20:22  <andythenorth> I have totally changed position on removing limits in newgrf features
18:20:32  <andythenorth> seems to co-incide with quitting forums
18:22:57  <andythenorth> ooof
18:23:07  <andythenorth> I always forget how to get the patched nml installed :P
18:23:18  <andythenorth> done now
18:25:04  * andythenorth wonders
18:25:18  <andythenorth> why prod_cargo_types is limited to 2 in nml (looks right)
18:25:27  <andythenorth> but accept_cargo_types is limited to 4 (looks wrong)
18:25:36  <andythenorth> oh that's bytes
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18:26:37  <andythenorth> nielsm: have you got an nml checkout? :P
18:26:48  <nielsm> no, never touched it
18:26:59  <andythenorth>
18:27:09  <andythenorth> it's pretty simple
18:27:26  <andythenorth> I might be able to do this, but I might need someone else playing along at home :P
18:29:41  <andythenorth> hmm it's built a newgrf
18:29:52  <andythenorth> but openttd thinks its invalid
18:30:53  <andythenorth> nielsm:
18:31:38  <nielsm> does nml use python 2 or 3?
18:32:20  <andythenorth> python 3
18:32:24  <andythenorth>
18:33:00  <andythenorth> that compiles, but the change from 2 bytes to 4 looks odd and weird
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18:33:35  <nielsm> I think 16 is the correct number
18:33:44  <nielsm> oh... no
18:33:47  <nielsm> hmm
18:35:31  <andythenorth> if I remember correctly
18:35:43  <andythenorth> the newgrf format needs to know how many bytes to expect in an action 0
18:35:54  * andythenorth checks the current sizing
18:36:31  <andythenorth> yeah prop 10 is a word
18:36:36  <andythenorth> and prop 11 is a dword
18:36:37  <andythenorth>
18:36:49  <andythenorth> we might need to change those on the ottd side as well
18:37:09  <andythenorth> within certain parameters, nml will just right out what it's given
18:37:18  <nielsm> I have no idea how newgrf stuff works at all :)
18:37:21  <andythenorth> so the nml side might be done with my patch
18:37:34  <andythenorth> oh it's just a bunch of bytes :D
18:37:52  <andythenorth> let's see if we can find ottd reading prop 10
18:38:01  <andythenorth> there's a table somewhere maybe
18:38:18  <nielsm> ahh
18:38:27  <nielsm> both would need to become 16 byte types somehow
18:38:37  <andythenorth> yes
18:38:56  <andythenorth> oh it's a byte per cargo?
18:39:13  <nielsm> yes
18:39:20  <andythenorth> right
18:39:22  <Eddi|zuHause> why 16?
18:39:36  <nielsm> it felt like a good number
18:39:42  <Eddi|zuHause> wouldn't 8 suffice for 64 bits?
18:39:59  <nielsm> it's an array of cargoIDs
18:40:03  <nielsm> not a bitmask
18:40:36  <andythenorth> ok so nml might not know how to write out 16 :P
18:40:51  <andythenorth> and I need to find these props in ottd somewhere
18:41:50  <Eddi|zuHause> cargo ID is a byte?
18:42:14  <andythenorth> nfo docs suggest so
18:42:22  <andythenorth> but I haven't found where in ottd code this is yes
18:42:27  <andythenorth> yes / yet /s
18:42:48  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it would surprise me if nmlc had trouble writing a string of 16 bytes
18:42:55  <andythenorth> me too
18:43:11  <andythenorth> but it might have integrity checks
18:43:13  * andythenorth tests
18:43:31  <nielsm> ottd probably doesn't expect any more than the 2 and 4 bytes
18:43:39  <nielsm> so 16 would confuse it
18:43:42  <andythenorth> yes
18:43:47  <andythenorth> and it will report invalid sprites likely
18:43:58  <andythenorth> and then we have to think about older grfs
18:44:06  <Eddi|zuHause> that change probably needs a grf version bump
18:44:13  <andythenorth> about time
18:44:27  <Eddi|zuHause> or a new property deprecating the old one
18:44:40  <nielsm> maybe new actions are needed for the extension
18:45:02  <andythenorth> nmlc ERROR: nmlc: An internal error has occurred:
18:45:13  <andythenorth> ....
18:45:13  <andythenorth> line 190, in print_varx
18:45:47  <andythenorth> well we've learnt something about scope :)
18:46:25  <Eddi|zuHause> uhm, vars (as in "used in varaction2 or action6/7/9/D) can't be more than 4 bytes
18:46:26  <nielsm> oh yes lots of this needs updating in ways
18:47:03  <Eddi|zuHause> i was assuming you're modifying a property, not a var
18:47:25  <nielsm> just looking through newgrf_industries.cpp for things right now
18:47:27  <Eddi|zuHause> (as in, action0)
18:47:30  <nielsm> and noticing more incompatibilities
18:48:07  <Eddi|zuHause> nielsm: spoiler alert: it's almost never as easy as the first hack suggests :p
18:48:13  <nielsm> :)
18:50:01  <frosch123> andythenorth: nielsm: i guess you will have to define the newgrf syntax first
18:50:16  <nielsm> looks like it
18:50:16  <frosch123> <- suggestion for a start
18:50:44  <frosch123> with no guarantees for completeness or suitability :)
18:50:45  <andythenorth> how about a CB? :P
18:50:49  <andythenorth> called 16 times :P
18:50:58  * andythenorth uses the 'CB get out of jail free' card :P
18:53:07  <nielsm> (having acceptances spread over multiple tiles also induces more interesting designs like "this is where we take in liquids, and over there are containers")
18:53:37  <andythenorth> historically I've avoided that :D
18:53:54  <andythenorth> it's used in $[some other industry set]
18:53:59  <andythenorth> and it confuses me
18:54:00  <andythenorth> but eh
18:54:06  <andythenorth> worth a try again
18:54:20  <nielsm> original industries already have that, for some reason
18:54:33  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah in PBI there was a food processing industry that accepts livestock at one side and wheat at the other
18:56:28  <andythenorth> the frosch spec looks pretty good to me
18:56:44  <nielsm> frosch123: "var 6E[x]: Date when cargo x was accepted last in days since year 0" --- game does not keep track of this, only a general "any cargo was last accepted this date"
18:56:57  <frosch123> yes, that one would be new
18:57:09  <frosch123> but iirc andy tries to emulate similar things for supplies
18:57:17  <andythenorth> it can be done with registers
18:57:23  <andythenorth> but it would be convenient as a var
18:57:29  <frosch123> feel free to skip it
18:57:38  <andythenorth> there aren't 64 registers eh :P
18:57:54  * andythenorth can't remember if they are word or dword
18:57:58  <frosch123> i just read over all the variables, to check which needs adjustment, and that one came to mind :)
18:58:37  <andythenorth> ignore me, we only need 16 anyway
18:58:37  <andythenorth> :P
18:58:53  <frosch123> andythenorth: depends whether you want to add 64 types of supply cargos
18:59:03  <andythenorth> well no
18:59:11  <andythenorth> if it's a CB, can I vary acceptance? :P
18:59:23  <frosch123> you already can with 3D
18:59:33  <frosch123> but it is messy due to the tile acceptance
18:59:37  <andythenorth> isn't it
18:59:43  <nielsm> the tiles would keep accepting the cargo
18:59:53  <frosch123> removing tile acceptance would be a different patch :)
18:59:59  <nielsm> the cargo would still be unloaded and paid for, just not delivered to the industry
19:00:31  <frosch123> nielsm: there are also callbacks to stop tile acceptance. but they are called at different times
19:00:56  <frosch123> so the few industry sets which use that, there are transition times
19:01:00  <andythenorth> varying acceptance is a terrible idea :)
19:01:11  <frosch123> where cargo is accepted/not yet accepted by either tiles or industry
19:02:09  <frosch123> anyway: this stuff is only used by industries with limited stockpiles
19:02:24  <frosch123> and those newgrf already complained that ottd only checks the acceptance once per cargo packet
19:02:32  <frosch123> so ottd always overshoots the limit
19:03:02  <frosch123> (if stockpile is 998, limit is 1000, and 16 items are delivered, it results in 1014 stockpiled)
19:03:37  <frosch123> so, touching anything around 2B/2C/4D opens way scarier barrels :p
19:03:44  <frosch123> *3D
19:04:05  <andythenorth> I think we back away from the barrels
19:04:40  <Eddi|zuHause> oh i had some fun trying to set up overflow routes for cargos with PBI
19:05:16  <Eddi|zuHause> needs conditinal loading, as in "leave stations if load amount > 0"
19:06:04  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... conditional shunting...
19:06:35  <nielsm> frosch123: I also left some comments about more boring aspects of the code in the PR, do you think you can lend some input on those points?
19:09:24  * andythenorth wonders when we move nml to openttd github
19:09:50  <andythenorth> planetmaker: did we discuss that recently? o_O ^
19:17:25  <frosch123> andythenorth: <- this is how far we got :)
19:17:46  <frosch123> though i think nml was supposed to go to ottd
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19:21:37  <andythenorth> yes
19:22:04  <andythenorth> it would be much easier to be able to PR the nml changes alongside the ottd changes
19:22:09  <andythenorth> or at least in the same workfloew
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19:22:21  <Wolf01> o/ +R again?
19:22:43  <frosch123> too many furries
19:23:41  <Wolf01> I need to fix my connect script, a timeout after issuing the identify command would be nice when the server takes a bit to identify
19:27:16  <Eddi|zuHause> run the identify and the join in parallel, but precede the join with a sleep?
19:27:26  <Wolf01> Yes, that
19:28:40  <Eddi|zuHause> or run the identify and the sleep in parallel, and continue when either of those returns?
19:31:36  * nielsm tries reading the newgrf loading code
19:31:50  <Wolf01> Good luck
19:41:19  <andythenorth> nielsm: so keep going? o_O
19:41:32  <andythenorth> or bail out of this :)
19:41:44  <nielsm> I'll try to see this through
19:42:00  <andythenorth> nice
19:42:04  <andythenorth> I think it's achieveable
19:42:12  <andythenorth> adding a cb is usually easy
19:42:36  <andythenorth> it's one of the few core commits I've done, so eh
19:42:55  <nielsm> it's adding it in the right place :)
19:42:59  <frosch123> there are no new callbacks
19:43:05  <frosch123> it's only changing existing ones
19:45:05  <andythenorth> oh yes
19:45:12  <andythenorth> and it anticipates more than 2 or 3 in future
19:45:23  <andythenorth>
19:47:58  <nielsm> I'm concerned that the IndustrySpec not getting the default acceptance/production data might make things slightly weird
19:49:21  <frosch123> <- i've added some key words for grepping in th esource
19:50:07  <frosch123> nielsm: src/table/build_industry.h: extend "#define MI" with many "CT_INVALID" :)
19:50:24  <nielsm> frosch123 I did already
19:50:52  <nielsm>
19:59:02  <nielsm> instead of/in addition to callbacks, would it be wrong to add a pair of new action0 properties that each take two bytes, the first is a cargo slot number and the second is a cargo type, repeatedly using the action with different cargo slot number sets the accepted/produced cargoes
19:59:37  <nielsm> possibly the cargo production property sets both cargo type and production level
20:00:30  <frosch123> changing action 0 is always a compatibility hassle
20:00:59  <frosch123> adding incremental properties is very rare, and would not work in this case, since there are default values
20:01:15  <frosch123> you could add a new property which takes a list of cargos
20:01:24  <frosch123> but for a first version, callbacks are easier
20:02:25  <nielsm> I think the industry chains window will be the victim, I believe it depends on the IndustrySpec definitions
20:02:39  <frosch123> hmm, i did not write it explicitly in the draft
20:02:40  <nielsm> and with just callbacks the IndustrySpec won't contain the cargoes
20:02:50  <nielsm> right?
20:03:08  <nielsm> as far as I understand the cb is only called upon actually constructing the industry on the map
20:03:09  <frosch123> but i think cb 14b/14c should be called once on game start with "purchase list context"
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20:03:14  <frosch123> and then the cargos are fixed
20:03:25  <frosch123> this is almost the same as a property then
20:03:43  <frosch123> the result of the callback would be stored in the industryspec in this case
20:05:00  <frosch123> it's similar to the gui sprites of railtypes
20:05:18  <frosch123> but i think there were some more cases where callbacks are only called once in AfterLoadGRFs
20:05:47  <nielsm> e.g. CBID_INDUSTRY_INPUT_CARGO_TYPES is only ever used in DoCreateNewIndustry() which is actually building on the map
20:06:00  <andythenorth> that's fine no? o_O
20:06:03  <andythenorth> or do I miss something?
20:06:35  <nielsm> the Industry object gets filled with actual in/out cargoes, but the IndustrySpec is not
20:06:43  <frosch123> nielsm: yes, currently that's the case
20:06:53  <frosch123> see line 42 in my paste
20:06:57  <nielsm> so the "fund new industry" and "industry chains" windows won't reflect the actual acceptances
20:07:15  <frosch123> the idea is that "purchase list" would return all potential cargos
20:07:26  <frosch123> and for a specific industry the callback may choose a subset
20:07:43  <frosch123> that should make the chain and fund gui work better than before
20:07:50  <frosch123> while not removing the old usecases of the callback
20:08:20  <nielsm> ah the call in DoCreateNewIndustry already points at INVALID_TILE anyway, so no location information there
20:08:27  <nielsm> but it does pass an Industry object
20:08:41  <nielsm> just passing NULL for Industry* should be valid?
20:08:51  <frosch123> the call in DoCreateIndustry can use the current date and random values to pick different cargos
20:09:16  <frosch123> yes, NULL should be fine
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20:14:24  <Eddi|zuHause> there needs to be a special version of that callback for towns/houses
20:18:52  <nielsm> frosch123: so your idea for the flag would be something like this?
20:19:37  <frosch123> "unlimited" :p
20:19:55  <nielsm> it's like unlimited data caps on internet
20:20:41  <frosch123> yes, essentially that. maybe check for duplicates and treat them as error, but maybe that's a bonus
20:20:58  <nielsm> (the grf should be ready to live in a world with even more acceptance types than just 16 if that flag is set)
20:21:50  <frosch123> yes, "unlimited" in the name is certainly better than "16"
20:21:53  <planetmaker> andythenorth, yes, we did discuss that... yet coverting NML to git did fail for me and the straight forward import didn't do it
20:22:21  <planetmaker> it simply failed with some error messages (which I don't quite recall now)
20:23:06  <andythenorth> interesting
20:24:05  <Wolf01> 'night
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20:25:22  <planetmaker> andythenorth, you also just gave it the hg.o.o URL?
20:25:27  <planetmaker> or how did you import it?
20:27:24  <andythenorth> hmm
20:27:36  <andythenorth> I thought I just imported it using github magic
20:28:56  * andythenorth tests it
20:30:06  <andythenorth> I don't have any hg -> git tool locally, so must be github magic
20:30:33  <nielsm> ugh the cargo suffix code needs some real restructuring to get to work
20:30:38  <nielsm> that's not for tonight
20:31:09  <andythenorth> :)
20:31:12  <andythenorth> if you achieve this
20:31:20  <andythenorth> I have to refactor all 6 FIRS economies :D
20:31:28  <andythenorth> it will take at least a year :D
20:31:41  <nielsm> lol
20:31:41  <frosch123> firs 64
20:31:50  <andythenorth> planetmaker: "No source repositories were detected at Please check the URL and try again."
20:32:04  <andythenorth> same error?
20:32:42  <frosch123> https?
20:32:56  <andythenorth> let's see
20:33:50  <Eddi|zuHause> is that firs for nintendo 64?
20:34:05  <frosch123> 64 bpp graphics
20:34:52  <andythenorth> 64x zoom
20:34:59  <Eddi|zuHause> 64D
20:35:23  <andythenorth> hmm the github magic is failing
20:35:29  <andythenorth> must be bees
20:35:40  <frosch123> you need 64 dimensions to draw the cargo flow chart without intersections? :p
20:35:40  <LordAro> not the bees!
20:36:37  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: that's not really how dimensions work :p
20:36:53  <frosch123> depends how complex the links are
20:37:12  <Eddi|zuHause> any graph can be drawn without intersections in 3D
20:37:26  <frosch123> i am sure andy can find a way to make the edges a 63d manifold
20:37:36  <andythenorth> what if the links change over time?
20:37:44  <planetmaker> andythenorth, yeah, I think so. Irrespective of https or http
20:37:53  <andythenorth> :x
20:37:59  <planetmaker> Hm... maybe it's... certificate issue...
20:38:16  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: so you need moving edges that don't entangle themselves?
20:38:45  <andythenorth> yes
20:42:19  <nielsm> okay too tired to work on this any more, gn
20:42:36  <nielsm> (hopefully I can sleep in this terrible humid heat)
20:43:40  <andythenorth> UK is quite ambient :)
20:43:44  <andythenorth> although I like it warm
20:44:02  <andythenorth> 19 deg right now
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20:44:32  <andythenorth> nielsm: so I should stop reworking FIRS Extreme eh :D
20:44:38  <andythenorth> until this is done
20:45:02  <nielsm> eh you can plan the industries? :D
20:45:21  <nielsm> 16 in/16 out probably isn't changing
20:46:02  <nielsm> so yeah, good night
20:46:16  <andythenorth> gn
20:46:32  * andythenorth also
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22:37:44  <peter1138> Hi
22:38:02  <peter1138> Is it safe yet?
22:38:06  *** peter1138 sets mode: -R 
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23:05:34  <Eddi|zuHause> is it ever?
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23:16:31  <Eddi|zuHause> i love people who claim they followed every step of the instruction
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