Config
Log for #openttd on 25th July 2018:
Times are UTC Toggle Colours
00:04:53  *** Laedek has joined #openttd
00:08:41  <peter1138> packet, not package.
00:22:37  <Eddi|zuHause> really, those are the same word for me
00:26:42  *** snail_UES_ has joined #openttd
00:26:50  <peter1138> Yeah, but they're not.
00:34:48  <Eddi|zuHause> possibly, but you won't change that :p
00:35:48  <peter1138> Networks deal with packets.
00:38:16  *** Supercheese has quit IRC
00:45:23  *** Flygon has joined #openttd
00:49:02  <Eddi|zuHause> and tommorrow it's about installing stuff and it's the other way around. still the same word for me
00:49:26  <snail_UES_> peter1138: I saw the activity over at https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/6805 ...
00:49:40  <snail_UES_> so is this going to be part of trunk?
01:02:54  <Eddi|zuHause> possibly...
01:03:03  *** sim-al2 has quit IRC
01:03:39  <Eddi|zuHause> but also it could be another "... i had a patch for that" in 10 years :p
01:04:24  *** keoz has quit IRC
01:25:01  *** Supercheese has joined #openttd
01:28:47  *** ^v has joined #openttd
01:28:48  *** ^v_ has joined #openttd
01:28:49  *** ^v__ has joined #openttd
01:28:50  *** Compu__ has joined #openttd
01:28:55  *** Hink_ has joined #openttd
01:28:59  *** BWBellairs has joined #openttd
01:29:00  *** ilbelkyr has joined #openttd
01:29:01  *** fxrh_ has joined #openttd
01:29:01  *** pendo324 has joined #openttd
01:29:11  *** FireFly has joined #openttd
01:29:16  *** ovoldemorto_ has joined #openttd
01:29:20  *** pinPoint has joined #openttd
01:29:21  *** ovrstorm has joined #openttd
01:29:22  *** pinPoint_____ has joined #openttd
01:29:46  *** ^v has quit IRC
01:29:48  *** ^v_ has quit IRC
01:29:48  *** ^v__ has quit IRC
01:29:49  *** Compu__ has quit IRC
01:29:50  *** pinPoint_____ has quit IRC
01:29:53  *** Hink_ has quit IRC
01:29:58  *** BWBellairs has quit IRC
01:29:59  *** ilbelkyr has quit IRC
01:30:00  *** fxrh_ has quit IRC
01:30:01  *** pendo324 has quit IRC
01:30:11  *** FireFly has quit IRC
01:30:15  *** ovoldemorto_ has quit IRC
01:30:19  *** pinPoint has quit IRC
01:30:21  *** ovrstorm has quit IRC
02:04:03  *** dvim has quit IRC
02:35:21  *** peter1138 has quit IRC
02:35:24  *** peter1138 has joined #openttd
02:36:26  *** debdog has quit IRC
02:38:50  *** debdog has joined #openttd
03:03:35  *** KenjiE20 has joined #openttd
03:09:06  *** glx has quit IRC
04:20:41  *** sim-al2 has joined #openttd
04:28:05  *** Supercheese has quit IRC
04:28:22  *** Supercheese has joined #openttd
04:58:14  *** Wacko1976 has joined #openttd
05:13:26  *** snail_UES_ has quit IRC
05:36:35  *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
05:43:15  *** Gja has joined #openttd
05:49:03  *** raz has joined #openttd
05:50:15  *** raz has quit IRC
05:55:38  <andythenorth> moin
06:06:15  *** Gja has quit IRC
08:08:06  *** keoz has joined #openttd
08:08:33  *** Supercheese has quit IRC
08:15:02  *** LJ has joined #openttd
08:16:08  *** LANJesus has quit IRC
08:34:53  *** acronix has joined #openttd
08:38:02  *** acronix has quit IRC
08:49:02  <andythenorth> soof
08:49:08  <andythenorth> petrochem economy in FIRS
08:49:10  <andythenorth> would be great
08:49:49  <V453000> dame
08:50:27  <andythenorth> what if I deleted supplies?
08:50:34  <andythenorth> and primaries needed specific inputs?
08:51:05  <V453000> would definitely make for an intersting economy, but one of the benefits to the supplies is that it's kind of clear that they do that
08:51:52  <andythenorth> yeah
08:51:55  <andythenorth> so no frac sand then
08:52:01  <andythenorth> and no POOP to arable farms
08:52:15  <V453000> xd
08:52:35  <andythenorth> but petrochem
08:52:40  <andythenorth> 'BTX' cargo
08:52:44  <andythenorth> and other silly names
08:53:23  <andythenorth> bbl
08:53:25  *** andythenorth has quit IRC
08:55:25  <Arveen> did i read poop cargo ?
08:55:50  <V453000> haha
08:55:52  <SpComb> no, it's fertilizer
08:56:59  <Arveen> ah, ok then
09:00:07  <FLHerne> I don't think having 64 railtypes on the current model would be sane...
09:01:24  <FLHerne> (but then I don't think 64 cargos is sane, and that's being done)
09:15:40  *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
09:56:18  <peter1138> Can you describe an alternative model?
09:57:12  <andythenorth> it doesn't matter if it's sane :)
09:57:14  <andythenorth> but eh
09:57:35  <andythenorth> it's content, so the player retains the choice to *not use them*
09:57:47  <andythenorth> I think we agonised too long about arbitrary restrictions on content
09:58:24  <andythenorth> I can use Comic Sans on my Mac, even though Jobs was a vitriolic font nerd
09:58:33  <SpComb> is there a "download and activate all" button in the bananas/newgrf UI? :)
09:58:41  <andythenorth> boom
09:59:31  <SpComb> download all the railsets!
09:59:45  <SpComb> I remember seeing a screenshot of the resulting dropdown
10:03:11  <peter1138> Probably posted by me.
10:03:29  <peter1138> And probably caused the set authors to cry.
10:17:33  <andythenorth> so 64 inputs and 64 outputs per industry? o_O
10:18:29  <peter1138> Hmm, need to pick up that vehicle list stuff that was discussed a month or two ago.
10:20:25  <andythenorth> oh that was nice
10:20:34  <andythenorth> it will unleash all kinds of crazy
10:20:43  <peter1138> Even that had arguments about what it was ;(
10:20:45  <andythenorth> so many ways to use that for BAD FEATURES
10:20:56  <andythenorth> it was the grouping IDs no?
10:21:19  <andythenorth> and then [mumble mumble] about how auto-replace can work with that
10:21:37  <andythenorth> wavey hands a bit, and all is well
10:22:51  <peter1138> Making up features no user nor dev wants, woo.
10:23:02  <peter1138> More railtypes? It's not sane.
10:25:29  <andythenorth> but we can
10:25:37  <andythenorth> mumble user needs
10:25:49  <andythenorth> mumble don't do engineering for engineering's sake
10:25:54  <andythenorth> but where's the fun in that :P
10:26:06  <andythenorth> we're not building the tax return system here
10:29:13  *** arirang has joined #openttd
10:32:16  *** alpha_one_x86 has quit IRC
10:34:58  *** chomwitt has joined #openttd
10:35:37  *** Blendify_i5 has joined #openttd
10:35:38  *** Cajs| has joined #openttd
10:35:39  *** Jamesofur has joined #openttd
10:35:39  *** Kirito has joined #openttd
10:35:39  *** banzaikitten has joined #openttd
10:35:39  *** rej has joined #openttd
10:35:49  *** Guest2056 has joined #openttd
10:35:50  *** slackjeff has joined #openttd
10:36:26  *** Cajs| has quit IRC
10:36:31  *** Kirito has quit IRC
10:36:39  *** slackjeff has quit IRC
10:36:55  *** UncleSamuel has joined #openttd
10:38:03  *** banzaikitten has quit IRC
10:38:03  *** Blendify_i5 has quit IRC
10:38:03  *** Guest2056 has quit IRC
10:38:04  *** Jamesofur has quit IRC
10:38:04  *** rej has quit IRC
10:38:20  *** arirang has quit IRC
10:38:44  *** torgeir has joined #openttd
10:40:45  *** kiera has joined #openttd
10:40:46  *** Zuu_ has joined #openttd
10:40:47  *** colde has joined #openttd
10:40:48  *** Guest2058 has joined #openttd
10:40:49  *** nealshire has joined #openttd
10:40:49  *** eggy has joined #openttd
10:40:56  *** exio4 has joined #openttd
10:40:59  *** SuchWow has joined #openttd
10:41:00  *** Cory has joined #openttd
10:41:00  *** Bonn333 has joined #openttd
10:41:01  *** Aprexer has joined #openttd
10:41:09  *** RustyJ has joined #openttd
10:41:10  *** xeroks has joined #openttd
10:41:33  *** kiera has quit IRC
10:41:37  *** Guest2058 has quit IRC
10:41:38  *** nealshire has quit IRC
10:41:38  *** eggy has quit IRC
10:41:44  *** exio4 has quit IRC
10:41:49  *** Bonn333 has quit IRC
10:42:40  *** SuchWow has quit IRC
10:43:54  *** Aprexer has quit IRC
10:43:54  *** RustyJ has quit IRC
10:43:54  *** Zuu_ has quit IRC
10:43:54  *** xeroks has quit IRC
10:43:58  *** Cory has quit IRC
10:45:03  *** webpigeon has joined #openttd
10:45:10  *** SiLuman has joined #openttd
10:45:12  *** Oats87 has joined #openttd
10:45:14  *** MEPB has joined #openttd
10:45:20  *** TheSilentLink has joined #openttd
10:45:43  *** MEPB has quit IRC
10:46:08  *** TheSilentLink has quit IRC
10:46:14  *** torgeir has quit IRC
10:46:46  *** sailorhaumea has joined #openttd
10:46:49  *** SiLuman has quit IRC
10:48:25  *** webpigeon has quit IRC
10:49:05  *** Oats87 has quit IRC
10:52:04  <Eddi|zuHause> we could have 64 railtypes and still enforce 16 per grf :p
10:52:55  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm sure encouraging users to add multiple railtype GRFs simultaneously will not cause any problems at all :p
10:54:09  <mikegrb> hah
10:55:30  *** circle has joined #openttd
10:57:41  *** circle has quit IRC
11:02:10  *** snail_UES_ has joined #openttd
11:02:48  *** foddo has joined #openttd
11:03:03  *** dindon has joined #openttd
11:03:12  *** Thorne has joined #openttd
11:05:20  *** dindon has quit IRC
11:06:26  *** Thorne has quit IRC
11:07:04  *** foddo has quit IRC
11:15:21  *** sailorhaumea has quit IRC
11:15:33  *** jamesl has joined #openttd
11:16:13  *** snail_UES_ has quit IRC
11:22:37  <FLHerne> peter1138: Having speed limits, electrification, and/or gauge be orthogonal would make it less absurd
11:22:51  <FLHerne> But then there are the people who want weight limits
11:23:36  <peter1138> That old chestnut.
11:23:51  <peter1138> No, electrification and gauge are definitely part of the railtype definition.
11:24:18  <peter1138> Speed limits sure.
11:26:28  <peter1138> Not even sure about that.
11:27:22  <andythenorth> I'm fine with the absurdity
11:27:25  <andythenorth> it is what it is
11:27:41  <andythenorth> if we'd split electrification from day 0, maybe it would be different, but eh
11:27:48  <FLHerne> Perhaps it's just a UI thing
11:27:53  <peter1138> Problem with having all those things as separate features is you 1-take space away and enforce that space has to be used for those features (or wasted) and 2-combinatorial hell, 3-who defines what is what.
11:28:00  <andythenorth> and UI
11:28:08  <andythenorth> UI is a cluster fuck either way
11:28:13  <peter1138> andythenorth, no, electrification can't be split
11:28:20  <peter1138> electrification is not binary
11:28:23  <FLHerne> If track-types could be categorised like NewObjects, vast numbers of them would be less overwhelming
11:28:24  <andythenorth> oh yeah that
11:28:26  <andythenorth> ok
11:28:31  <peter1138> it's not yes or no
11:28:35  <andythenorth> well let's make groups for vehicle IDs
11:28:45  <andythenorth> railtypes is for the best in this best of all possible worlds
11:28:53  <andythenorth> but cargo subtypes are made of ass
11:28:59  <FLHerne> peter1138: If it was only catenary, splitting it as an overlay thing would still work reasonably
11:29:07  <peter1138> but it's NOT only catenary.
11:29:21  <FLHerne> But I can't see how third-rails could work that way
11:29:23  <FLHerne> (yes)
11:29:27  <peter1138> 4th rails
11:29:31  <peter1138> different voltage systems
11:29:59  <FLHerne> peter1138: I think different-voltage catenary would be fine
11:30:19  <peter1138> but if electrification is just a flag... then you can't have that
11:30:20  * andythenorth wonders about discussing things that are moot :)
11:30:21  <FLHerne> peter1138: "Build catenary" could have a 15kV/25kV/both dropdown
11:30:32  <peter1138> AC/DC it's okay by me
11:30:34  <peter1138> Oh fuck that
11:30:38  <andythenorth> 64 output cargos per industry? :)
11:30:43  <FLHerne> And the sprites aren't really affected by track type
11:30:57  <FLHerne> But third-rail really has to be part of the track sprite
11:31:27  <peter1138> I can switch and change my frequency.
11:31:32  <FLHerne> Hm, "build catenary" isn't quite what I was envisaging
11:32:17  <FLHerne> More like a dropdown "catenary: none, 1500VDC, 25kVAC, both" while building rails or using the conversion tool
11:32:32  <FLHerne> (but it still doesn't really work)
11:32:33  <peter1138> Anyway, last time we discussed this it came down to being totally a UI thing, and separate rail types is totally appropriate.
11:32:40  <peter1138> TOTALLY hah
11:33:49  <FLHerne> I guess that could extend to sub-railtypes generally, and leave the policy to newgrf
11:33:50  <peter1138> (And in that case, increasing to 64 types is just a stepping stone)
11:33:59  <peter1138> No, there are no sub-railtypes
11:34:03  <andythenorth> RAILTYPE GROUPS
11:34:07  <peter1138> FFS
11:34:10  <andythenorth> SAY IT LOUDER
11:34:25  <andythenorth> is it lunchtime yet?
11:34:55  <FLHerne> So the newgrf could define "90mph standard rail" with different kinds of electrication, or "25kV rail" with different speed limits, and let authors fight out which was better
11:35:14  * andythenorth back to work :P
11:35:15  *** andythenorth has left #openttd
11:35:44  <FLHerne> (I do find the one flat list very annoying)
11:36:53  <FLHerne> More of a UI-presentation thing than trying to make railtypes combine or inherit things, which is silly
11:37:31  <peter1138> Yeah. That's why cargo subtypes are a flop.
11:38:05  *** jamesl has quit IRC
11:38:25  <peter1138> Of course, cargo subtypes are not even an attribute of cargo types, they are defined by vehicles... o_O
11:38:47  *** connection has joined #openttd
11:53:56  <Eddi|zuHause> "cargo subtypes" are a complete misnomer
11:54:51  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe "vehicle subtypes" or "transportation subtypes"
12:31:22  *** Wacko1976 has quit IRC
12:38:17  *** connection has quit IRC
12:39:01  *** iamtakingiteasy has joined #openttd
12:52:06  *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd
13:00:09  *** iamtakingiteasy has quit IRC
13:00:48  *** maven_ has joined #openttd
13:05:51  *** maven_ has quit IRC
13:06:04  *** gsdg has joined #openttd
13:29:20  *** Wacko1976 has joined #openttd
13:35:43  *** supermop_work has joined #openttd
13:37:23  <supermop_work> yo
13:38:25  *** gsdg has quit IRC
13:38:38  *** gregf has joined #openttd
13:44:38  *** nielsm has joined #openttd
13:45:02  *** Smedles_ has joined #openttd
13:45:41  *** Smedles has quit IRC
13:48:51  *** cccyRegeaneWolfe has joined #openttd
13:48:55  <cccyRegeaneWolfe> Hey, I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
13:48:59  <cccyRegeaneWolfe> or maybe this blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
13:49:03  <cccyRegeaneWolfe> Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
13:49:07  <cccyRegeaneWolfe> Voice your opinions at https://webchat.freenode.net/?channels=#freenode
13:50:08  *** cccyRegeaneWolfe has quit IRC
14:04:04  <Eddi|zuHause> i think the spammers are mutating
14:05:09  <gregf> they are, yes
14:05:37  <nielsm> what kind of smear campaign is this anyway? I'm not clicking any of the links
14:06:13  <gregf> why not?
14:06:23  <gregf> the links seem pretty legit
14:06:31  <Eddi|zuHause> who knows, but the previous of these spams were from "amazon web services" hosts
14:06:32  *** Smedles_ has quit IRC
14:07:02  *** Smedles has joined #openttd
14:07:03  <gregf> this makes the blogs look pretty legit https://archive.fo/UNfF2
14:09:27  <Eddi|zuHause> that still doesn't mean you should give spammers more reason to exist by actually reacting to them
14:10:43  *** sim-al2 has quit IRC
14:11:21  *** timfi has joined #openttd
14:12:07  *** dvim has joined #openttd
14:13:55  <Yotson> It seem to be so called Joe Job spam. Freenode had some at the end of last year as well.
14:14:00  <Yotson> https://freenode.net/news/joe-job-spam
14:15:06  *** timfi has quit IRC
14:18:56  *** Smedles_ has joined #openttd
14:23:56  *** Smedles has quit IRC
14:23:57  *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC
14:30:56  *** Smedles has joined #openttd
14:30:56  *** Smedles_ has quit IRC
14:31:54  <SpComb> TF has normal rail and high-speed rail, both with caternary... early-game trains can drive on both, so it's nice in terms of gameplay because it lets you gradually upgrade in the mid-game... what does 1500VDC vs 25kVAC even mean in terms of gameplay? Sounds like what you'd end up with if you mixed two different train sets on the same map
14:32:27  <SpComb> I mean, you can build the TGV and have it drive on normal rail, it'll just be limited to 120km/h
14:32:50  <gregf> Tharbakim debdog michi_cc Rubidium tyteen4a03 Hirundo SpComb rocky113844 Smedles masse Eddi|zuHause hrmny XeryusTC angguss[m] Alkel_U3 KouDy supermop_work greeter Maarten gregf Heiki Sacro argoneus Exec colde ccfreak2k Osai rocky1138 Westie avdg LordAro nauticalnexus APTX_ Mek Yexo murr4y gnu_jj
14:32:51  <gregf> Wacko1976 TrueBrain Flygon techmagus OsteHovel IgnoredAmbience cHawk orudge TinoDidriksen juzza1 LJ Antheus gas1[m] Mazur keoz urdh Sylf peter1138 crem2 tokai Extrems luaduck V453000 DorpsGek johnwhitlow[m] Hazzard Compu HeyCitizen Yotson manila[m] blathijs ^Spike^ pixeldanger[m] Terkhen Agiri[m]
14:32:51  <gregf> grossing Markk dihedral triolus[m] mikegrb Wacko1976-work Arveen Lejving_ FLHerne quiznilo Laedek mindlesstux tneo Mahjong nielsm reldred _dp_ Ammler vlanik2[m] Taede berndj SmatZ heffer fonsinchen swimstar[m] planetmaker dvim Webster cute[m] chomwitt UncleCJ KenjiE20
14:32:53  <gregf> Hey, I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
14:32:53  <gregf> or maybe this blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
14:32:53  <gregf> Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
14:32:53  <gregf> Voice your opinions at https://webchat.freenode.net/?channels=#freenode
14:32:57  *** gregf has quit IRC
14:33:03  *** abbeyripstra has joined #openttd
14:33:06  *** Alberth has joined #openttd
14:33:06  *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Alberth
14:33:14  <Alberth> hi
14:33:25  <Eddi|zuHause> so much for "legit links"
14:33:39  <colde> Damn, it's started here now as well
14:33:46  <crem2> They even found my private IRC for logs collecting where I'm literally alone!
14:35:29  <colde> Ops might want to set +M proactively
14:35:37  <colde> i suspect they will be back
14:35:44  <crem2> It's far from annoying rate for now.
14:35:56  <Eddi|zuHause> +r?
14:36:01  <Eddi|zuHause> or was it +R?
14:36:10  *** abbeyripstra has quit IRC
14:36:24  *** sebastianflyte has joined #openttd
14:37:19  *** sebastianflyte has quit IRC
14:37:24  *** ketralnis has joined #openttd
14:37:44  *** jonathand has joined #openttd
14:38:11  *** |_| has joined #openttd
14:38:50  *** govg has joined #openttd
14:39:00  *** cHawk has quit IRC
14:39:11  *** govg has quit IRC
14:39:13  <colde> Eddi|zuHause: +R prevents them from join, +M only prevents them from speaking, so it's the least intrusive way to stop them afaik
14:39:37  *** odd_ has joined #openttd
14:39:45  <Eddi|zuHause> but +M will prevent everone else from speaking as well
14:39:58  *** odd_ has quit IRC
14:40:11  <crem2> But is there really anything to discuss?
14:40:14  *** oleo has joined #openttd
14:41:30  *** naos_ has joined #openttd
14:42:18  *** hvxgr__ has joined #openttd
14:42:27  *** by has joined #openttd
14:42:55  <nielsm> SpComb, afaik early electric railways were DC because those motors were cheaper or whatever, then later AC took over, but modern electric motors are variable frequency so AC line will get rectified and re-inverted at variable frequency
14:43:28  <nielsm> (so a modern multi-system elctric locotmotive just has a few different input stages to switch between)
14:43:50  <SpComb> newer AC trains can drive on older DC track?
14:44:11  <nielsm> but the simplified model of electrification every TT-like game has makes it difficult to give these differences gameplay meaning
14:44:12  <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: it's complicated...
14:45:15  *** cHawk has joined #openttd
14:45:32  <nielsm> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Europe_rail_electrification_en.svg
14:45:34  <Eddi|zuHause> DC is easier to construct, but has problems with long distances
14:45:47  <nielsm> you have locos capable of running on most of those systems just with a switch
14:46:22  <SpComb> why would you want to build multiple incompatible electification systems in the same game of OpenTTD :P
14:46:42  *** by has quit IRC
14:46:56  <nielsm> yes see it's difficult to implement good gameplay around systems where the player knows a choice is dead end
14:47:00  *** alphaseg has joined #openttd
14:47:04  <Eddi|zuHause> the early AC locomotives had problems with sparks in each phase, so they chose a lowered frequency
14:47:10  *** alphaseg has quit IRC
14:47:11  <nielsm> but historically the people implementing it didn't know it would be
14:47:25  <Eddi|zuHause> the countries which adopted AC later, chose the normal frequency
14:47:30  <SpComb> I just hope there's more to NRT than just forcing you to rebuild track at some point in the game
14:47:46  *** bigpet has joined #openttd
14:48:05  <nielsm> very few places have changed electrification system of an entire railroad
14:48:06  *** denschub has joined #openttd
14:48:07  <SpComb> like the original rail/monorail/maglev... electrified rail makes so much more sense
14:48:13  *** denschub has quit IRC
14:48:16  *** mikeoftheeast has joined #openttd
14:48:27  *** pixdamix has joined #openttd
14:48:33  <nielsm> usually you just keep building new engines to run on the old system
14:48:44  *** sporkwitch has joined #openttd
14:48:49  *** berft has joined #openttd
14:49:29  <Eddi|zuHause> the original monrail/maglev has mainly the problem that standard rail lost all the vehicles at some point, so you had to switch
14:49:58  *** harzilein has joined #openttd
14:50:01  *** jpX has joined #openttd
14:50:02  *** mikespears has joined #openttd
14:50:07  *** alex` has joined #openttd
14:50:16  <SpComb> main problem I see is that you can't upgrade from rail to maglev in-place, you need to replace all the trains too
14:50:29  *** thedragonfire has joined #openttd
14:50:34  *** arza has joined #openttd
14:50:36  <nielsm> yeah you can't do that in reality either
14:50:43  <Eddi|zuHause> there's two problems with that
14:50:53  <Eddi|zuHause> a) you shouldn't have to do that replacement
14:50:53  *** mfa298_ has joined #openttd
14:50:58  *** jpX has quit IRC
14:51:07  *** betawaffle has joined #openttd
14:51:10  <Eddi|zuHause> b) you probably don't want that replacement to be 1:1, you need much fewer trains after conversion
14:51:11  *** yugiohjcj has joined #openttd
14:51:15  *** brackets has joined #openttd
14:51:21  *** cprossu has joined #openttd
14:51:23  <nielsm> but in reality you can do partial upgrades of a conventional rail system, as long as the basic track remains compatible
14:51:28  <nielsm> ugh so much join/kill spam
14:51:34  *** irc-5225225 has joined #openttd
14:51:52  <Eddi|zuHause> i have join/leave messages disabled for people who never spoke
14:52:05  <SpComb> yeah, that's what I mean by the TTDPatch/OpenTTD eletrification / TF high-speed rail upgrade being better in terms of gameplay
14:52:46  <nielsm> but the cost of those upgrades are almost insignificant in my experience
14:52:55  <nielsm> making them a no questions good choice
14:53:50  *** random has joined #openttd
14:54:01  <nielsm> and then the distinction between non-/electrified rail becomes pointless anyway
14:54:03  *** auctus has joined #openttd
14:54:24  <nielsm> if you play with infrastructure maintenance costs and the maintenance cost of electrified rail is actually significantly higher, then it might become interesting
14:54:25  *** ST2 has joined #openttd
14:54:26  *** |404 has joined #openttd
14:54:36  *** sscout has joined #openttd
14:54:39  <nielsm> also if you had to build and manage the electric substation infrastructure
14:54:52  *** ryanknack has joined #openttd
14:55:43  *** pelegreno______ has joined #openttd
14:56:17  *** sins- has joined #openttd
14:56:26  *** erasmus has joined #openttd
14:56:39  *** badon has joined #openttd
14:56:49  *** amar has joined #openttd
14:57:23  *** sielicki has joined #openttd
14:57:27  *** the_madman has joined #openttd
14:57:45  *** forextrader has joined #openttd
14:57:57  *** radiofree has joined #openttd
14:58:09  *** jpf137[m] has joined #openttd
14:58:26  *** nstr_ has joined #openttd
14:58:33  *** quiznilo has left #openttd
14:58:40  *** nesthib has joined #openttd
14:58:49  *** ozymandias has joined #openttd
14:59:03  *** evilman_work has joined #openttd
14:59:08  *** prawnsalad has joined #openttd
14:59:13  *** exagone31 has joined #openttd
14:59:26  *** lutoma has joined #openttd
14:59:36  *** mony has joined #openttd
14:59:57  *** typhon has joined #openttd
15:00:03  *** erranteg1 has joined #openttd
15:00:17  *** robotroll has joined #openttd
15:00:32  *** infernix_ has joined #openttd
15:00:47  *** mdk_ has joined #openttd
15:01:01  *** gtaxl_ has joined #openttd
15:01:05  *** deetwelv1 has joined #openttd
15:01:12  *** sam_ has joined #openttd
15:01:17  *** tourist has joined #openttd
15:01:20  *** trisk_ has joined #openttd
15:01:26  *** pitydafool has joined #openttd
15:01:37  *** synchris has joined #openttd
15:02:10  *** heinzboettjer has joined #openttd
15:02:26  *** timvisher has joined #openttd
15:02:29  <timvisher> Hey, I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
15:02:30  *** limbo_ has joined #openttd
15:02:32  <timvisher> or maybe this blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
15:02:36  <timvisher> Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
15:02:39  <timvisher> Voice your opinions at https://webchat.freenode.net/?channels=#freenode
15:02:49  *** milos has joined #openttd
15:02:52  *** atlas has joined #openttd
15:03:00  *** uptime has joined #openttd
15:03:05  *** maxalt has joined #openttd
15:03:11  *** chloe_ has joined #openttd
15:03:27  *** platonides has joined #openttd
15:03:44  *** randy has joined #openttd
15:03:46  *** timvisher has quit IRC
15:03:49  *** peter1138 has left #openttd
15:03:49  *** peter1138 has joined #openttd
15:03:52  *** sielicki has joined #openttd
15:03:56  *** rory has joined #openttd
15:04:00  *** peter1138 has left #openttd
15:04:00  *** peter1138 has joined #openttd
15:04:00  *** ChanServ sets mode: +o peter1138
15:04:05  *** dp3 has joined #openttd
15:04:32  *** crayfishx has joined #openttd
15:04:39  *** lambdacomplex has joined #openttd
15:04:51  *** pelegreno______ has joined #openttd
15:05:32  *** denschub has joined #openttd
15:05:47  *** cork_ has joined #openttd
15:06:59  *** themesquito has joined #openttd
15:07:26  *** dstruct has joined #openttd
15:08:14  *** proclifo has joined #openttd
15:08:28  *** stephens has joined #openttd
15:08:44  *** milky has joined #openttd
15:08:48  *** blendify_i5 has joined #openttd
15:09:08  *** oso96_2000 has joined #openttd
15:09:12  *** trqx has joined #openttd
15:09:27  *** nullrouted has joined #openttd
15:09:46  *** submain has joined #openttd
15:10:06  *** xcore has joined #openttd
15:10:21  *** cronus has joined #openttd
15:10:36  *** atomicthumbs has joined #openttd
15:11:01  *** crayfishx has joined #openttd
15:11:11  *** t0ne has joined #openttd
15:11:21  *** nazca has joined #openttd
15:11:40  *** o-dog1 has joined #openttd
15:11:47  *** kinny has joined #openttd
15:11:57  *** k0hax has joined #openttd
15:12:12  *** keygen has joined #openttd
15:12:24  *** Wormnest has joined #openttd
15:12:26  *** thevdude has joined #openttd
15:12:34  *** ^v has joined #openttd
15:12:49  *** aimhere has joined #openttd
15:12:52  *** abian has joined #openttd
15:12:55  *** calcul0n has joined #openttd
15:13:37  *** silversword has joined #openttd
15:13:57  *** rigel has joined #openttd
15:14:10  *** checking has joined #openttd
15:14:19  *** rorx has joined #openttd
15:14:23  *** barschmade has joined #openttd
15:14:29  *** nkk71 has joined #openttd
15:14:34  *** shrooms has joined #openttd
15:14:39  *** kasa has joined #openttd
15:15:00  *** we has joined #openttd
15:15:05  *** logan has joined #openttd
15:15:08  *** texou has joined #openttd
15:15:21  *** lord_of_life has joined #openttd
15:15:38  *** nou has joined #openttd
15:16:06  *** superseriouscat has joined #openttd
15:16:21  *** yugiohjcj has joined #openttd
15:16:25  *** thk127 has joined #openttd
15:16:29  *** mrelendig has joined #openttd
15:16:44  *** bitch has joined #openttd
15:16:47  *** sitri has joined #openttd
15:16:52  *** random has joined #openttd
15:16:55  *** as has joined #openttd
15:17:01  *** kasa has joined #openttd
15:17:16  *** justthedoctor has joined #openttd
15:17:29  *** anderx has joined #openttd
15:19:27  *** Wacko1976 has quit IRC
15:20:15  *** holo has joined #openttd
15:20:33  *** siinus` has joined #openttd
15:20:48  *** raziel has joined #openttd
15:21:05  *** blendify_i5 has joined #openttd
15:21:25  *** cfields has joined #openttd
15:21:33  *** lostnord has joined #openttd
15:21:43  *** liara- has joined #openttd
15:21:51  *** promote has joined #openttd
15:22:09  *** dlcastc has joined #openttd
15:22:14  *** trobotham has joined #openttd
15:22:42  *** muffinmedic has joined #openttd
15:22:57  *** c0c0dril0 has joined #openttd
15:23:01  *** trqx has joined #openttd
15:23:01  *** trqx has quit IRC
15:23:15  *** rigel has joined #openttd
15:23:36  *** hubcaps has joined #openttd
15:23:59  *** djones has joined #openttd
15:24:17  *** thurin_ has joined #openttd
15:24:30  *** steev_ has joined #openttd
15:24:44  *** manyraptors has joined #openttd
15:24:49  *** elenah has joined #openttd
15:25:03  *** orliesaurus has joined #openttd
15:25:27  *** cccyregeanewolfe has joined #openttd
15:25:40  *** stephens has joined #openttd
15:25:44  *** tionis has joined #openttd
15:25:57  *** caraway has joined #openttd
15:26:09  *** kek918 has joined #openttd
15:26:34  *** syfer has joined #openttd
15:26:39  *** ugjka_ has joined #openttd
15:26:47  *** beuker has joined #openttd
15:26:53  *** victorsueca has joined #openttd
15:26:57  *** ululate has joined #openttd
15:27:02  *** developers has joined #openttd
15:27:03  *** developers has quit IRC
15:27:28  *** siso_ has joined #openttd
15:27:43  *** goldman60 has joined #openttd
15:27:48  *** cheapie_ has joined #openttd
15:28:02  *** peetz0r_ has joined #openttd
15:28:05  *** nemesys has joined #openttd
15:28:11  *** jacob843 has joined #openttd
15:28:19  *** fredrikhl has joined #openttd
15:28:25  *** xgc has joined #openttd
15:28:32  *** foxcookie has joined #openttd
15:28:48  *** wraeth_ has joined #openttd
15:29:10  *** pici has joined #openttd
15:29:45  *** lbft_ has joined #openttd
15:30:06  *** jan\ has joined #openttd
15:30:15  *** hdm[m] has joined #openttd
15:30:19  *** l0j1k has joined #openttd
15:31:32  *** raziel has joined #openttd
15:31:39  *** tehnut has joined #openttd
15:31:45  *** zv_ has joined #openttd
15:31:55  *** hipp has joined #openttd
15:31:59  *** andries has joined #openttd
15:32:09  *** ohelig has joined #openttd
15:32:31  *** ollien has joined #openttd
15:32:50  *** jhutchin1 has joined #openttd
15:32:57  *** ktechmidas has joined #openttd
15:33:02  *** was has joined #openttd
15:33:10  *** grossing_ has joined #openttd
15:33:19  *** our has joined #openttd
15:33:37  *** justyns has joined #openttd
15:33:43  *** the_madman has joined #openttd
15:33:50  *** vicenteh has joined #openttd
15:33:59  *** nikow has joined #openttd
15:34:03  *** crunchychewie has joined #openttd
15:34:17  *** Progman has joined #openttd
15:34:21  *** vicenteh has joined #openttd
15:34:40  *** rasengan has joined #openttd
15:35:52  *** hobbyboy_ has joined #openttd
15:35:57  *** polarizedions has joined #openttd
15:36:22  *** theaetetus has joined #openttd
15:36:38  *** skywarn has joined #openttd
15:36:43  *** simon_-_ has joined #openttd
15:36:56  *** zuu_ has joined #openttd
15:37:00  *** sud0 has joined #openttd
15:37:39  *** neddysea1 has joined #openttd
15:37:47  *** thomasb9511 has joined #openttd
15:38:02  *** joepie91 has joined #openttd
15:38:51  *** blendify_i5 has joined #openttd
15:39:06  *** jesse_ has joined #openttd
15:39:33  *** johnny56 has joined #openttd
15:40:22  *** sleepy_ has joined #openttd
15:41:22  *** patrick has joined #openttd
15:41:31  *** precise has joined #openttd
15:41:54  *** milos has joined #openttd
15:42:15  *** slashlife has joined #openttd
15:42:23  *** marduk191 has joined #openttd
15:42:45  *** oleo has joined #openttd
15:43:28  *** pk12 has joined #openttd
15:43:48  *** mist_ has joined #openttd
15:43:59  *** joek has joined #openttd
15:44:05  *** ketas_ has joined #openttd
15:44:20  *** rasengan has joined #openttd
15:44:38  *** lausefuc1 has joined #openttd
15:44:53  *** ktechmidas has joined #openttd
15:45:30  *** guntbert has joined #openttd
15:46:10  *** poxifide has joined #openttd
15:46:15  *** neptune has joined #openttd
15:46:37  *** thomasb9511 has joined #openttd
15:47:03  *** cooldude_ has joined #openttd
15:47:16  *** Gja has joined #openttd
15:47:29  *** ^phantom^ has joined #openttd
15:47:48  *** |_ has joined #openttd
15:48:07  *** burningprincess has joined #openttd
15:48:21  *** memoryno- has joined #openttd
15:48:30  *** decay has joined #openttd
15:49:04  *** napsterbater has joined #openttd
15:49:07  *** joycepao has joined #openttd
15:49:07  *** joycepao has quit IRC
15:50:02  *** alexz has joined #openttd
15:50:06  *** alex` has joined #openttd
15:50:10  *** glyphie____ has joined #openttd
15:50:31  *** y0sh_ has joined #openttd
15:50:35  *** czart_ has joined #openttd
15:50:49  *** techman has joined #openttd
15:51:20  *** chachasmooth has joined #openttd
15:51:45  *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
15:51:51  <andythenorth> pigment mine? o_O
15:52:18  *** smeggysmeg has joined #openttd
15:52:18  <nielsm> I think most minerals need some additional processing to be useful as pigments
15:52:24  *** grumble2 has joined #openttd
15:53:07  <andythenorth> that's ok
15:53:12  <andythenorth> I have sulfuric acid :P
15:53:14  *** ohelig has joined #openttd
15:53:38  *** barq_ has joined #openttd
15:53:47  *** avelardi_ has joined #openttd
15:53:51  *** wiggle has joined #openttd
15:54:07  *** cccyregeanewolfe has joined #openttd
15:54:38  *** m4v has joined #openttd
15:54:52  *** matlock has joined #openttd
15:55:00  *** icasdri has joined #openttd
15:55:08  *** arirang has joined #openttd
15:55:08  *** arirang has quit IRC
15:55:59  *** insidious has joined #openttd
15:56:33  *** trijetscud has joined #openttd
15:56:39  *** jack3 has joined #openttd
15:57:00  *** caf has joined #openttd
15:58:23  *** nstr_ has joined #openttd
15:58:55  *** mdk_ has joined #openttd
15:59:01  *** robink has joined #openttd
15:59:49  *** nb_ has joined #openttd
15:59:51  <nielsm> uh huh? there is industry_type.h and then industrytype.h
15:59:54  *** jollyrgrs has joined #openttd
16:00:12  *** get has joined #openttd
16:00:30  *** deltab has joined #openttd
16:00:43  *** mindjuju has joined #openttd
16:00:48  *** timotab|gone has joined #openttd
16:00:55  *** abrotman_ has joined #openttd
16:01:09  *** anataex has joined #openttd
16:01:10  *** anataex has quit IRC
16:01:16  *** jrg has joined #openttd
16:01:23  *** elenah has joined #openttd
16:01:44  *** blendify_i5 has joined #openttd
16:01:47  *** [itchyjunk] has joined #openttd
16:02:03  *** clonak_ has joined #openttd
16:02:10  *** darkmagic has joined #openttd
16:04:56  *** steveej_ has joined #openttd
16:05:12  *** welcome has joined #openttd
16:06:03  <planetmaker> nielsm, I guess there's a difference between industry types (as in different industries) and industry types (as in type definitions concerning industries). But it's rather... hand-wavy
16:06:18  *** em_ has joined #openttd
16:06:23  *** elenah has joined #openttd
16:06:27  *** host has joined #openttd
16:06:32  *** luke-jr_ has joined #openttd
16:06:45  *** lewsthanthree has joined #openttd
16:06:52  *** thomas has joined #openttd
16:08:11  *** fossxplorer has joined #openttd
16:09:30  <Eddi|zuHause> nielsm: *_type.h is for C++-types concerning *
16:09:55  <Eddi|zuHause> nielsm: and industrytype.h is about actual industrytypes
16:10:39  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think i ever looked at either file
16:21:30  *** fossxplorer has quit IRC
16:22:19  *** waggie has joined #openttd
16:24:26  *** Flygon has quit IRC
16:26:12  *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd
16:26:51  <peter1138> nielsm, similar for cargo and rail :D
16:27:09  *** Tony has joined #openttd
16:27:23  <Tony> hoody doody folks
16:27:48  *** Tony has left #openttd
16:34:51  <LordAro> maybe should consider +R again?
16:35:43  <nielsm> yeah
16:35:46  <nielsm> please
16:38:27  *** waggie has quit IRC
16:38:49  *** luke-jr_ has joined #openttd
16:50:06  *** iooner has joined #openttd
16:50:09  <iooner> Hey, I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
16:50:12  <iooner> or maybe this blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
16:50:16  <iooner> Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
16:50:19  <iooner> Voice your opinions at https://webchat.freenode.net/?channels=#freenode
16:51:08  <nielsm> LordAro: please? :)
16:51:18  <nielsm> or peter1138? :)
16:51:41  <andythenorth> is it a bot again?
16:51:54  <andythenorth> like a really polite bot?
16:52:07  *** Lejving_ has quit IRC
16:52:36  *** iooner has quit IRC
16:52:44  <LordAro> nielsm: i would if i could
16:52:55  <LordAro> anyone with op can
16:52:56  *** Lejving has joined #openttd
17:01:22  *** luke-jr_ has quit IRC
17:01:26  *** grossing_ has joined #openttd
17:01:56  *** ilera has joined #openttd
17:02:22  *** andythenorth has quit IRC
17:10:32  *** peter1138 sets mode: +R 
17:20:46  *** Gja has quit IRC
17:22:31  <nielsm> oh where did andy go... had something for him to play with
17:22:32  <nielsm> https://github.com/nielsmh/OpenTTD/tree/indcargonum
17:26:43  *** frosch123 has joined #openttd
17:27:36  <frosch123> @mode -R
17:27:36  *** DorpsGek sets mode: -R 
17:28:12  <nielsm> frosch123: there's a large number of spambots constantly joining and getting killed by the network, +R was put back to limit join/part spam
17:28:26  <frosch123> oh, i thought i had forgotton it :p
17:28:29  <frosch123> @mode +R
17:28:29  *** DorpsGek sets mode: +R 
17:28:38  <LordAro> frosch123: you did, TB removed it :p
17:28:47  <LordAro> quak
17:29:15  <ilera> i have a blind friend who's unable to use nickserv because of his disability and can't join the channel now :(
17:30:05  <LordAro> can use irc but cannot use nickserv?
17:30:10  <LordAro> bit weird
17:30:33  <ilera> yes, but he's disabled
17:30:52  <ilera> nickserv is not very accessible
17:30:56  <LordAro> i did read your previous message, yes
17:31:13  <LordAro> just as accessible as normal text, i would say
17:33:58  *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
17:34:23  <andythenorth> o/
17:35:02  <nielsm> hi andythenorth, here's something for you to play with: https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/6867
17:35:14  <andythenorth> ha ha
17:35:30  <andythenorth> that diverts my evening :P
17:38:33  *** ilera has quit IRC
17:48:51  <nielsm> andythenorth: I'm not sure if anything else needs to be done for it to also work with newgrf so please report back :D
17:49:10  <andythenorth> I'll need to patch some stuff locally probs
17:49:20  <andythenorth> let's see
17:49:33  <nielsm> ah nmlc patch again maybe?
17:49:57  <andythenorth> maybe
17:50:00  <andythenorth> we'll see
17:50:21  * andythenorth building
17:54:42  <andythenorth> nmlc ERROR: "generated/firs.nml", line 219485: Cargo list must be an array with no more than 2 values
17:54:46  <andythenorth> yeah I need to patch that
18:05:51  *** supermop_work has quit IRC
18:07:45  <nielsm> okay this is wrong https://0x0.st/sV4n.png
18:16:05  <nielsm> fixed that, and then hacked in this https://0x0.st/sV47.png
18:16:31  <andythenorth> it's attractive now eh :D
18:16:39  <nielsm> burn all the stuff
18:17:03  * andythenorth tries to fix nmlc
18:19:20  <andythenorth> hopefully trivial
18:20:07  <andythenorth> it's weird
18:20:22  <andythenorth> I have totally changed position on removing limits in newgrf features
18:20:32  <andythenorth> seems to co-incide with quitting forums
18:22:57  <andythenorth> ooof
18:23:07  <andythenorth> I always forget how to get the patched nml installed :P
18:23:18  <andythenorth> done now
18:25:04  * andythenorth wonders
18:25:18  <andythenorth> why prod_cargo_types is limited to 2 in nml (looks right)
18:25:27  <andythenorth> but accept_cargo_types is limited to 4 (looks wrong)
18:25:36  <andythenorth> oh that's bytes
18:26:09  *** tokai|noir has joined #openttd
18:26:09  *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai|noir
18:26:37  <andythenorth> nielsm: have you got an nml checkout? :P
18:26:48  <nielsm> no, never touched it
18:26:59  <andythenorth> https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/nml/repository
18:27:09  <andythenorth> it's pretty simple
18:27:26  <andythenorth> I might be able to do this, but I might need someone else playing along at home :P
18:29:41  <andythenorth> hmm it's built a newgrf
18:29:52  <andythenorth> but openttd thinks its invalid
18:30:53  <andythenorth> nielsm: https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/9070/firs.grf
18:31:38  <nielsm> does nml use python 2 or 3?
18:32:20  <andythenorth> python 3
18:32:24  <andythenorth> https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pk2lvldbm/jzc9dj/raw
18:33:00  <andythenorth> that compiles, but the change from 2 bytes to 4 looks odd and weird
18:33:02  *** tokai has quit IRC
18:33:35  <nielsm> I think 16 is the correct number
18:33:44  <nielsm> oh... no
18:33:47  <nielsm> hmm
18:35:31  <andythenorth> if I remember correctly
18:35:43  <andythenorth> the newgrf format needs to know how many bytes to expect in an action 0
18:35:54  * andythenorth checks the current sizing
18:36:31  <andythenorth> yeah prop 10 is a word
18:36:36  <andythenorth> and prop 11 is a dword
18:36:37  <andythenorth> https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action0/Industries
18:36:49  <andythenorth> we might need to change those on the ottd side as well
18:37:09  <andythenorth> within certain parameters, nml will just right out what it's given
18:37:18  <nielsm> I have no idea how newgrf stuff works at all :)
18:37:21  <andythenorth> so the nml side might be done with my patch
18:37:34  <andythenorth> oh it's just a bunch of bytes :D
18:37:52  <andythenorth> let's see if we can find ottd reading prop 10
18:38:01  <andythenorth> there's a table somewhere maybe
18:38:18  <nielsm> ahh
18:38:27  <nielsm> both would need to become 16 byte types somehow
18:38:37  <andythenorth> yes
18:38:56  <andythenorth> oh it's a byte per cargo?
18:39:13  <nielsm> yes
18:39:20  <andythenorth> right
18:39:22  <Eddi|zuHause> why 16?
18:39:36  <nielsm> it felt like a good number
18:39:42  <Eddi|zuHause> wouldn't 8 suffice for 64 bits?
18:39:59  <nielsm> it's an array of cargoIDs
18:40:03  <nielsm> not a bitmask
18:40:36  <andythenorth> ok so nml might not know how to write out 16 :P
18:40:51  <andythenorth> and I need to find these props in ottd somewhere
18:41:50  <Eddi|zuHause> cargo ID is a byte?
18:42:14  <andythenorth> nfo docs suggest so
18:42:22  <andythenorth> but I haven't found where in ottd code this is yes
18:42:27  <andythenorth> yes / yet /s
18:42:48  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it would surprise me if nmlc had trouble writing a string of 16 bytes
18:42:55  <andythenorth> me too
18:43:11  <andythenorth> but it might have integrity checks
18:43:13  * andythenorth tests
18:43:31  <nielsm> ottd probably doesn't expect any more than the 2 and 4 bytes
18:43:39  <nielsm> so 16 would confuse it
18:43:42  <andythenorth> yes
18:43:47  <andythenorth> and it will report invalid sprites likely
18:43:58  <andythenorth> and then we have to think about older grfs
18:44:06  <Eddi|zuHause> that change probably needs a grf version bump
18:44:13  <andythenorth> about time
18:44:27  <Eddi|zuHause> or a new property deprecating the old one
18:44:40  <nielsm> maybe new actions are needed for the extension
18:45:02  <andythenorth> nmlc ERROR: nmlc: An internal error has occurred:
18:45:13  <andythenorth> ....
18:45:13  <andythenorth> line 190, in print_varx
18:45:47  <andythenorth> well we've learnt something about scope :)
18:46:25  <Eddi|zuHause> uhm, vars (as in "used in varaction2 or action6/7/9/D) can't be more than 4 bytes
18:46:26  <nielsm> oh yes lots of this needs updating in ways https://0x0.st/sVJA.png
18:47:03  <Eddi|zuHause> i was assuming you're modifying a property, not a var
18:47:25  <nielsm> just looking through newgrf_industries.cpp for things right now
18:47:27  <Eddi|zuHause> (as in, action0)
18:47:30  <nielsm> and noticing more incompatibilities
18:48:07  <Eddi|zuHause> nielsm: spoiler alert: it's almost never as easy as the first hack suggests :p
18:48:13  <nielsm> :)
18:50:01  <frosch123> andythenorth: nielsm: i guess you will have to define the newgrf syntax first
18:50:16  <nielsm> looks like it
18:50:16  <frosch123> https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pg1abrk2j <- suggestion for a start
18:50:44  <frosch123> with no guarantees for completeness or suitability :)
18:50:45  <andythenorth> how about a CB? :P
18:50:49  <andythenorth> called 16 times :P
18:50:58  * andythenorth uses the 'CB get out of jail free' card :P
18:53:07  <nielsm> (having acceptances spread over multiple tiles also induces more interesting designs like "this is where we take in liquids, and over there are containers")
18:53:37  <andythenorth> historically I've avoided that :D
18:53:54  <andythenorth> it's used in $[some other industry set]
18:53:59  <andythenorth> and it confuses me
18:54:00  <andythenorth> but eh
18:54:06  <andythenorth> worth a try again
18:54:20  <nielsm> original industries already have that, for some reason
18:54:33  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah in PBI there was a food processing industry that accepts livestock at one side and wheat at the other
18:56:28  <andythenorth> the frosch spec looks pretty good to me
18:56:44  <nielsm> frosch123: "var 6E[x]: Date when cargo x was accepted last in days since year 0" --- game does not keep track of this, only a general "any cargo was last accepted this date"
18:56:57  <frosch123> yes, that one would be new
18:57:09  <frosch123> but iirc andy tries to emulate similar things for supplies
18:57:17  <andythenorth> it can be done with registers
18:57:23  <andythenorth> but it would be convenient as a var
18:57:29  <frosch123> feel free to skip it
18:57:38  <andythenorth> there aren't 64 registers eh :P
18:57:54  * andythenorth can't remember if they are word or dword
18:57:58  <frosch123> i just read over all the variables, to check which needs adjustment, and that one came to mind :)
18:58:37  <andythenorth> ignore me, we only need 16 anyway
18:58:37  <andythenorth> :P
18:58:53  <frosch123> andythenorth: depends whether you want to add 64 types of supply cargos
18:59:03  <andythenorth> well no
18:59:11  <andythenorth> if it's a CB, can I vary acceptance? :P
18:59:23  <frosch123> you already can with 3D
18:59:33  <frosch123> but it is messy due to the tile acceptance
18:59:37  <andythenorth> isn't it
18:59:43  <nielsm> the tiles would keep accepting the cargo
18:59:53  <frosch123> removing tile acceptance would be a different patch :)
18:59:59  <nielsm> the cargo would still be unloaded and paid for, just not delivered to the industry
19:00:31  <frosch123> nielsm: there are also callbacks to stop tile acceptance. but they are called at different times
19:00:56  <frosch123> so the few industry sets which use that, there are transition times
19:01:00  <andythenorth> varying acceptance is a terrible idea :)
19:01:11  <frosch123> where cargo is accepted/not yet accepted by either tiles or industry
19:02:09  <frosch123> anyway: this stuff is only used by industries with limited stockpiles
19:02:24  <frosch123> and those newgrf already complained that ottd only checks the acceptance once per cargo packet
19:02:32  <frosch123> so ottd always overshoots the limit
19:03:02  <frosch123> (if stockpile is 998, limit is 1000, and 16 items are delivered, it results in 1014 stockpiled)
19:03:37  <frosch123> so, touching anything around 2B/2C/4D opens way scarier barrels :p
19:03:44  <frosch123> *3D
19:04:05  <andythenorth> I think we back away from the barrels
19:04:40  <Eddi|zuHause> oh i had some fun trying to set up overflow routes for cargos with PBI
19:05:16  <Eddi|zuHause> needs conditinal loading, as in "leave stations if load amount > 0"
19:06:04  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... conditional shunting...
19:06:35  <nielsm> frosch123: I also left some comments about more boring aspects of the code in the PR, do you think you can lend some input on those points?
19:09:24  * andythenorth wonders when we move nml to openttd github
19:09:50  <andythenorth> planetmaker: did we discuss that recently? o_O ^
19:17:25  <frosch123> andythenorth: https://github.com/OpenTTDcoop <- this is how far we got :)
19:17:46  <frosch123> though i think nml was supposed to go to ottd
19:18:33  *** synchris has quit IRC
19:21:37  <andythenorth> yes
19:22:04  <andythenorth> it would be much easier to be able to PR the nml changes alongside the ottd changes
19:22:09  <andythenorth> or at least in the same workfloew
19:22:12  *** Wolf01 has joined #openttd
19:22:21  <Wolf01> o/ +R again?
19:22:43  <frosch123> too many furries
19:23:41  <Wolf01> I need to fix my connect script, a timeout after issuing the identify command would be nice when the server takes a bit to identify
19:27:16  <Eddi|zuHause> run the identify and the join in parallel, but precede the join with a sleep?
19:27:26  <Wolf01> Yes, that
19:28:40  <Eddi|zuHause> or run the identify and the sleep in parallel, and continue when either of those returns?
19:31:36  * nielsm tries reading the newgrf loading code
19:31:50  <Wolf01> Good luck
19:41:19  <andythenorth> nielsm: so keep going? o_O
19:41:32  <andythenorth> or bail out of this :)
19:41:44  <nielsm> I'll try to see this through
19:42:00  <andythenorth> nice
19:42:04  <andythenorth> I think it's achieveable
19:42:12  <andythenorth> adding a cb is usually easy
19:42:36  <andythenorth> it's one of the few core commits I've done, so eh
19:42:55  <nielsm> it's adding it in the right place :)
19:42:59  <frosch123> there are no new callbacks
19:43:05  <frosch123> it's only changing existing ones
19:45:05  <andythenorth> oh yes
19:45:12  <andythenorth> and it anticipates more than 2 or 3 in future
19:45:23  <andythenorth> https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Callbacks#Decide_input_and_output_cargo_types_.2814B.2C14C.29
19:47:58  <nielsm> I'm concerned that the IndustrySpec not getting the default acceptance/production data might make things slightly weird
19:49:21  <frosch123> https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pwwcxs3a7 <- i've added some key words for grepping in th esource
19:50:07  <frosch123> nielsm: src/table/build_industry.h: extend "#define MI" with many "CT_INVALID" :)
19:50:24  <nielsm> frosch123 I did already
19:50:52  <nielsm> https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/6867/commits/d334cc64a6090b222d1585d989ad06af59d1628b
19:59:02  <nielsm> instead of/in addition to callbacks, would it be wrong to add a pair of new action0 properties that each take two bytes, the first is a cargo slot number and the second is a cargo type, repeatedly using the action with different cargo slot number sets the accepted/produced cargoes
19:59:37  <nielsm> possibly the cargo production property sets both cargo type and production level
20:00:30  <frosch123> changing action 0 is always a compatibility hassle
20:00:59  <frosch123> adding incremental properties is very rare, and would not work in this case, since there are default values
20:01:15  <frosch123> you could add a new property which takes a list of cargos
20:01:24  <frosch123> but for a first version, callbacks are easier
20:02:25  <nielsm> I think the industry chains window will be the victim, I believe it depends on the IndustrySpec definitions
20:02:39  <frosch123> hmm, i did not write it explicitly in the draft
20:02:40  <nielsm> and with just callbacks the IndustrySpec won't contain the cargoes
20:02:50  <nielsm> right?
20:03:08  <nielsm> as far as I understand the cb is only called upon actually constructing the industry on the map
20:03:09  <frosch123> but i think cb 14b/14c should be called once on game start with "purchase list context"
20:03:10  *** glx has joined #openttd
20:03:10  *** ChanServ sets mode: +v glx
20:03:14  <frosch123> and then the cargos are fixed
20:03:25  <frosch123> this is almost the same as a property then
20:03:43  <frosch123> the result of the callback would be stored in the industryspec in this case
20:05:00  <frosch123> it's similar to the gui sprites of railtypes
20:05:18  <frosch123> but i think there were some more cases where callbacks are only called once in AfterLoadGRFs
20:05:47  <nielsm> e.g. CBID_INDUSTRY_INPUT_CARGO_TYPES is only ever used in DoCreateNewIndustry() which is actually building on the map
20:06:00  <andythenorth> that's fine no? o_O
20:06:03  <andythenorth> or do I miss something?
20:06:35  <nielsm> the Industry object gets filled with actual in/out cargoes, but the IndustrySpec is not
20:06:43  <frosch123> nielsm: yes, currently that's the case
20:06:53  <frosch123> see line 42 in my paste
20:06:57  <nielsm> so the "fund new industry" and "industry chains" windows won't reflect the actual acceptances
20:07:15  <frosch123> the idea is that "purchase list" would return all potential cargos
20:07:26  <frosch123> and for a specific industry the callback may choose a subset
20:07:43  <frosch123> that should make the chain and fund gui work better than before
20:07:50  <frosch123> while not removing the old usecases of the callback
20:08:20  <nielsm> ah the call in DoCreateNewIndustry already points at INVALID_TILE anyway, so no location information there
20:08:27  <nielsm> but it does pass an Industry object
20:08:41  <nielsm> just passing NULL for Industry* should be valid?
20:08:51  <frosch123> the call in DoCreateIndustry can use the current date and random values to pick different cargos
20:09:16  <frosch123> yes, NULL should be fine
20:12:04  *** cHawk has quit IRC
20:14:24  <Eddi|zuHause> there needs to be a special version of that callback for towns/houses
20:18:52  <nielsm> frosch123: so your idea for the flag would be something like this? https://gist.github.com/nielsmh/2e9275212e5b627551abed502b77fbd5
20:19:37  <frosch123> "unlimited" :p
20:19:55  <nielsm> it's like unlimited data caps on internet
20:20:41  <frosch123> yes, essentially that. maybe check for duplicates and treat them as error, but maybe that's a bonus
20:20:58  <nielsm> (the grf should be ready to live in a world with even more acceptance types than just 16 if that flag is set)
20:21:50  <frosch123> yes, "unlimited" in the name is certainly better than "16"
20:21:53  <planetmaker> andythenorth, yes, we did discuss that... yet coverting NML to git did fail for me and the straight forward import didn't do it
20:22:21  <planetmaker> it simply failed with some error messages (which I don't quite recall now)
20:23:06  <andythenorth> interesting
20:24:05  <Wolf01> 'night
20:24:07  *** Wolf01 has quit IRC
20:25:22  <planetmaker> andythenorth, you also just gave it the hg.o.o URL?
20:25:27  <planetmaker> or how did you import it?
20:27:24  <andythenorth> hmm
20:27:36  <andythenorth> I thought I just imported it using github magic
20:28:56  * andythenorth tests it
20:30:06  <andythenorth> I don't have any hg -> git tool locally, so must be github magic
20:30:33  <nielsm> ugh the cargo suffix code needs some real restructuring to get to work
20:30:38  <nielsm> that's not for tonight
20:31:09  <andythenorth> :)
20:31:12  <andythenorth> if you achieve this
20:31:20  <andythenorth> I have to refactor all 6 FIRS economies :D
20:31:28  <andythenorth> it will take at least a year :D
20:31:41  <nielsm> lol
20:31:41  <frosch123> firs 64
20:31:50  <andythenorth> planetmaker: "No source repositories were detected at http://hg.openttdcoop.org/nml. Please check the URL and try again."
20:32:04  <andythenorth> same error?
20:32:42  <frosch123> https?
20:32:56  <andythenorth> let's see
20:33:50  <Eddi|zuHause> is that firs for nintendo 64?
20:34:05  <frosch123> 64 bpp graphics
20:34:52  <andythenorth> 64x zoom
20:34:59  <Eddi|zuHause> 64D
20:35:23  <andythenorth> hmm the github magic is failing
20:35:29  <andythenorth> must be bees
20:35:40  <frosch123> you need 64 dimensions to draw the cargo flow chart without intersections? :p
20:35:40  <LordAro> not the bees!
20:36:37  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: that's not really how dimensions work :p
20:36:53  <frosch123> depends how complex the links are
20:37:12  <Eddi|zuHause> any graph can be drawn without intersections in 3D
20:37:26  <frosch123> i am sure andy can find a way to make the edges a 63d manifold
20:37:36  <andythenorth> what if the links change over time?
20:37:44  <planetmaker> andythenorth, yeah, I think so. Irrespective of https or http
20:37:53  <andythenorth> :x
20:37:59  <planetmaker> Hm... maybe it's... certificate issue...
20:38:16  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: so you need moving edges that don't entangle themselves?
20:38:45  <andythenorth> yes
20:42:19  <nielsm> okay too tired to work on this any more, gn
20:42:36  <nielsm> (hopefully I can sleep in this terrible humid heat)
20:43:40  <andythenorth> UK is quite ambient :)
20:43:44  <andythenorth> although I like it warm
20:44:02  <andythenorth> 19 deg right now
20:44:07  *** Alberth has left #openttd
20:44:32  <andythenorth> nielsm: so I should stop reworking FIRS Extreme eh :D
20:44:38  <andythenorth> until this is done
20:45:02  <nielsm> eh you can plan the industries? :D
20:45:21  <nielsm> 16 in/16 out probably isn't changing
20:46:02  <nielsm> so yeah, good night
20:46:16  <andythenorth> gn
20:46:32  * andythenorth also
20:46:35  *** andythenorth has quit IRC
20:54:04  *** nielsm has quit IRC
20:54:28  *** Supercheese has joined #openttd
20:55:30  *** sim-al2 has joined #openttd
21:02:06  *** frosch123 has quit IRC
21:40:16  *** Progman has quit IRC
21:57:41  *** HerzogDeXtEr has quit IRC
22:13:09  *** Supercheese has quit IRC
22:37:44  <peter1138> Hi
22:38:02  <peter1138> Is it safe yet?
22:38:06  *** peter1138 sets mode: -R 
22:38:51  *** cgml has joined #openttd
22:50:30  *** madbrad200 has joined #openttd
22:51:53  *** Lejving has quit IRC
22:53:00  *** madbrad200 has quit IRC
22:53:15  *** snowolf has joined #openttd
22:56:57  *** APTX_ has quit IRC
22:57:06  *** cgml has quit IRC
22:57:07  *** APTX_ has joined #openttd
22:58:20  *** snowolf has quit IRC
22:58:23  *** weaksauce has joined #openttd
23:02:50  *** Wormnest has quit IRC
23:05:34  <Eddi|zuHause> is it ever?
23:09:27  *** weaksauce has quit IRC
23:10:07  *** APTX_ has quit IRC
23:10:38  *** monoxane has joined #openttd
23:16:31  <Eddi|zuHause> i love people who claim they followed every step of the instruction
23:23:54  *** chomwitt has quit IRC
23:36:03  *** monoxane has quit IRC
23:36:06  *** nealshire has joined #openttd
23:38:38  *** nealshire has quit IRC
23:39:35  *** host has joined #openttd
23:50:00  *** glx_ has joined #openttd
23:50:00  *** glx is now known as Guest2100
23:50:01  *** glx_ is now known as glx
23:57:29  *** Guest2100 has quit IRC

Powered by YARRSTE version: svn-trunk