Log for #openttd on 12th September 2018:
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00:00:43  <Samu> station spreading is really imba :(
00:03:01  <Samu>
00:03:13  <Samu> i blame station spreading
00:04:41  <Supercheese> there are plenty of exploits if you're just wanting to make moneyz
00:09:26  <Samu> i'm off to bed, cyas take care
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06:45:34  <andythenorth> moin
07:19:09  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro merged pull request #6900: Fix #6839: OLD_GM_DIR midi search path got lost
07:19:09  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] planetmaker pushed 1 commits to master:
07:19:09  <DorpsGek_II>   - Fix #6839: OLD_GM_DIR midi search path got lost (#6900) (by LordAro)
07:19:10  <DorpsGek_II>
07:24:12  <LordAro> :)
07:31:15  <andythenorth> patches :)
07:34:12  <planetmaker> :) moin
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07:42:51  <andythenorth> snail_UES_: do you cycle any liveries using depot flip?
07:42:54  <andythenorth> or is that just me?
07:46:06  <snail_UES_> andythenorth: in a depot, I only randomly flip certain engines
07:46:24  <snail_UES_> liveries only change through players’ actions
07:46:31  <andythenorth> how many vehicle liveries do you have typically?
07:47:14  <snail_UES_> 2 or 3 for most of them...
07:47:25  <snail_UES_> they’re based on real-life companies though
07:47:39  <snail_UES_> some engines only get one, a few others get like 5 or 6
07:48:24  <snail_UES_> I’m also adding a parameter to turn the set in 2cc colors for people who don’t care about realism :p
07:48:28  <andythenorth> :)
07:48:48  <andythenorth> I have vehicles with 2 liveries, which are selected by flipping the vehicle in depot
07:49:04  <andythenorth> I'm wondering if we can have 2 bits for flip, and cycle them
07:49:17  <andythenorth> giving 4 liveries
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09:00:46  <Samu> road depots can be "removed"?
09:01:15  <Samu> i thought "demolish" was the only option
09:02:41  <Samu> what will it leave behind? pieces of road?
09:05:58  <Samu> return ScriptObject::DoCommand(tile, 0, 0, CMD_LANDSCAPE_CLEAR);
09:06:00  <Samu> hah...
09:06:09  <Samu> resorts to demolish
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09:24:38  <snail_UES_> andythenorth: 4 statuses for flipping?
09:25:02  <snail_UES_> flipping now works well as “flipped” vs. “not flipped"...
09:25:17  <snail_UES_> livery cycling can be done in different ways, i.e. through refitting, or randomly
09:25:37  <snail_UES_> a better solution would be purchase list variants :)
09:39:21  <Samu> the difference between 10k opcodes and 250k opcodes is abysmal
09:39:38  <Samu> something that is usually done in 50 days, is done in 2 days
09:41:07  <Samu> @calc 10*50
09:41:08  <DorpsGek> Samu: 500
09:41:13  <Samu> @calc 250*2
09:41:13  <DorpsGek> Samu: 500
09:41:17  <Samu> yeah.. makes sense
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10:04:21  <andythenorth> snail_UES_: there's an idea for purchase list variants also
10:04:31  <andythenorth> I like the livery flipping, it's really quick and easy
10:04:48  <snail_UES_> but flipping is used for another purpose
10:05:01  <snail_UES_> there are vehicles that can run backwards
10:05:05  <andythenorth> yes
10:05:09  <andythenorth> I am abusing it
10:05:10  <snail_UES_> and that’s what flipping is used for...
10:05:25  <snail_UES_> using 2 bits for that would break this
10:05:50  <andythenorth> nah, it can be masked
10:06:04  <andythenorth> so 0 and 2 are unflipped, and 1 and 3 are flipped
10:06:06  <andythenorth> simples :)
10:06:32  <snail_UES_> I still think there could be a better way
10:07:08  <snail_UES_> with this methdology, we would soon think that 4 liveries to cycle through will be “not enough"
10:07:24  <snail_UES_> and I can clearly see people asking for more bits allocated to this...
10:07:35  <snail_UES_> purchase list variants would be a more expandable solution
10:07:38  <andythenorth> yes
10:08:07  <andythenorth> I wouldn't propose the flip cycle as the best solution to liveries
10:08:15  <andythenorth> it's more a harmless option for silly hacks
10:08:28  <snail_UES_> people would easily abuse it :D
10:09:08  <andythenorth> I already did
10:09:35  <snail_UES_> yeah, the point is, you did and now are requesting an additional bit
10:09:51  <snail_UES_> the next person would ask for another bit...
10:09:53  <snail_UES_> and so forth
10:11:44  <andythenorth> we'd end up with a byte
10:12:07  <snail_UES_> guess so…
10:12:10  <andythenorth> more than a byte is silly
10:12:25  <snail_UES_> and I’d have to rewrite some of my code :p
10:12:39  <snail_UES_> since I’m checking for flipped status countless times
10:13:14  <snail_UES_> but TBH I still prefer my current way to cycle across liveries
10:13:26  <andythenorth> it would have to work in a backwards compatible way
10:13:37  <snail_UES_> i.e. with refitting to passengers. It allows the user to directly choose tge livery he wants
10:14:00  <andythenorth> yeah I've seen that route
10:14:08  <andythenorth> I never ever use cargo refit so it doesn't work for me :)
10:14:30  <snail_UES_> well, I’d be happy to give it up if we had purchase list variants ;)
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10:34:35  <peter1138> You're not getting extra bits for flipping.
10:34:39  <peter1138> It's not logical.
10:44:51  <andythenorth> such logic
10:45:08  <andythenorth> what if it flip was n-dimensional :P
10:45:12  <andythenorth> -it
10:45:30  <andythenorth> BUT HOW WILL I DO STUPID HAX?
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10:49:19  <peter1138> Don't :D
10:50:35  <Samu> the ai now removes stuff that failed to be removed
10:50:54  <Samu> it adds to a scheduleremoves
10:51:09  <Samu> that is run from time to time
10:51:11  <Samu> yay
10:51:14  <Samu> success
10:51:23  <Samu> and it saves and it loads
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10:52:39  <Samu> this means i can speed up the expanding station code better
10:52:54  <Samu> er, the result of this is that
10:52:57  <peter1138> I'm not sure why openttd doesn't just save the whole state itself.
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10:53:33  <peter1138> I suppose that would be more complex in many cases.
10:54:23  <andythenorth> peter1138: so no flipping? :(
10:54:57  <peter1138> You can flip as much as you like, but using it for livery selection is definitely a bad feature.
10:57:16  <andythenorth> we need buy menu groups then :P
10:57:18  <andythenorth> oof
11:02:07  <Samu> ugh... 5k opcodes and very slow construction speeds is very very slow
11:02:15  <Samu> 800 days to complete first route :(
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11:15:23  <andythenorth> hmmm
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11:50:25  <Samu> hmm, iterating routes backwards has a disadvantage
11:50:55  <Samu> a new route is appended to the end of the routearray
11:51:39  <Samu> managing routes backwards would mean that older routes will have to wait a bit longer for their management turn :(
11:51:57  <Samu> that's not good
11:52:17  <Samu> perhaps this is fine
11:52:25  <Samu> it has to iterate all routes anyway
11:53:24  <Samu> unsure what to do
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12:00:19  <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> what if it flip was n-dimensional :P <-- what now, you want to flip up/down as well? :p
12:01:28  <Eddi|zuHause> i'll side with peter1138 on this one.
12:02:14  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: what dimension is 'I changed the colours of the pixels'?
12:02:20  <andythenorth> it is a dimension IMHO :P
12:02:23  <andythenorth> there's a colourspace
12:02:47  <andythenorth> flipping 1CC and 2CC is 'reversing' if I twist the words enough :P
12:08:26  <Samu> hmm, ai is failing to build depot
12:08:30  <Samu> damn it
12:08:36  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but then, you would need a modifier key for each dimension independently. it can't be a "cycle"
12:08:54  <andythenorth> I am God
12:09:00  <Samu> because the whole tiles adjacent to the road have houses
12:09:01  <andythenorth> I can control the dimensional cycle
12:09:03  <andythenorth> with nml
12:09:10  <andythenorth> or dice
12:09:22  <Eddi|zuHause> "flip" is by definition a cycle of 2
12:09:29  <Samu> maybe i should demolish houses
12:09:30  <Samu> lol
12:09:40  <Eddi|zuHause> (unless you're trying to insert a USB stick)
12:10:31  <andythenorth> ow
12:10:38  <andythenorth> that is not quite what I was looking for
12:10:43  <andythenorth> hurts my head
12:11:48  <andythenorth> I was trying to find a tetrahedron flip, which has a cycle of 4
12:12:50  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: with geometric objects, you have two operations: mirroring and rotating
12:13:07  <Eddi|zuHause> mirroring is a cycle of 2, rotating is a cycle of n
12:13:24  <andythenorth> hmm
12:13:26  <Eddi|zuHause> (sometimes)
12:14:22  <andythenorth> I will defer to you
12:14:31  <andythenorth> nobody is going to add me another bit anyway :(
12:14:37  <andythenorth> not even for lulz
12:15:17  <Eddi|zuHause> if you're going to change the code, might as well do it properly
12:16:30  <Eddi|zuHause> for cycles longer than 2 the UI is just going to be annoying
12:18:25  <Eddi|zuHause> and you're causing a ton of followup problems, like what if a person wants to change the available liveries over time?
12:22:22  <andythenorth> nah
12:22:26  <andythenorth> that's not silly hax
12:22:32  <andythenorth> that's doing things properly
12:22:41  <andythenorth> this isn't a solution to liveries, it's for stupid easter eggs
12:22:58  <andythenorth> but as we all learn, too many easter eggs make you sick ::
12:23:00  <andythenorth> :P
12:26:32  <andythenorth> hmm if we did have buy menu groups....
12:26:37  <andythenorth> ...the endless possibilities :P
12:43:07  <andythenorth> oof but autoreplace :(
12:56:51  <Eddi|zuHause> well, with buy menu groups, you could make autoreplace handle either the whole group, or individual entries, based on player choice
12:57:06  <Eddi|zuHause> you can't do that with hackyflips
12:57:29  <andythenorth> I don't need convincing about groups :)
12:58:10  <andythenorth> but meanwhile my hackyflips mean I need to do a lot of drawing :P
12:58:33  <andythenorth> I can't use recolour sprites for hopper liveries because of the cargo colours
12:58:36  <andythenorth> unless.....
12:58:43  <andythenorth> ha I can put the loads on another layer
12:58:51  <andythenorth> almost like it was intended to be that way :P
12:59:26  <andythenorth> thanks for that Eddi|zuHause :)
13:00:10  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not sure what i had to do with that
13:00:15  <andythenorth> you were integral
13:00:18  <andythenorth> it was practically your idea
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13:00:44  <andythenorth> now I just need to refactor ~everything
13:01:09  <Eddi|zuHause> i have loads of ideas
13:01:23  <andythenorth> so
13:01:25  <andythenorth> recolour sprites
13:01:42  <andythenorth> currently I only use them to flip 1CC / 2CC, and frosch wrote that for me
13:01:43  <andythenorth>
13:01:51  <andythenorth> I need to remap a bunch of other colours too :P
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13:02:59  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't even remember what part of that idea was supposed to be mine
13:03:19  <andythenorth> the bit where you convinced me not to use hackyflip for more than 2 liveries
13:03:23  <andythenorth> very persuasive
13:03:37  <andythenorth> hackyflip is the new BAD FEATURE
13:04:34  <andythenorth> recolour sprites are just A: B pairs?
13:04:52  <andythenorth> I do PIL based recolour maps already like this
13:16:06  <peter1138> livery labels? :p
13:16:25  <andythenorth> ow
13:16:33  <andythenorth> then you could replace like for like
13:16:52  <andythenorth> but o/c
13:16:58  <andythenorth> there would have to be newgrf defined rules :P
13:17:05  <andythenorth> so that Santa Fe -> BNSF
13:17:14  <andythenorth> and we could have a spec for that
13:18:28  <andythenorth> WHO ANIMATED THOSE PIXELS
13:18:31  <andythenorth> nml hates me
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14:22:22  <Samu> i got a weird assert triggering
14:22:38  <Samu> there was no reason for it to happen
14:24:14  <Samu> AITile.GetClosestTown(tile) has returned 2 different values
14:27:04  <Samu> it returned the town to the left during valuator
14:27:19  <Samu> later on in the code it returned the town to the right
14:27:25  <Samu> on the same  tile
14:27:26  <Samu> why
14:30:05  <Samu> founding towns isn't enabled
14:30:26  <Samu> why did I get 2 different values?
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14:49:33  <Samu> ok i see
14:49:57  <Samu> during valuator, there was a house in the tile, a house belonging to the town to the left
14:50:16  <Samu> later on, when doing the 2nd check, the house was no longer there
14:50:30  <Samu> the closest town then was the town to the right
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14:51:23  <Samu> 		case MP_HOUSE: 			return Town::GetByTile(tile);
14:51:31  <Samu> stupid rules
14:51:42  <Samu> wasn't aware of that
14:52:27  <Samu> i still dont understand something
14:52:42  <Samu> is buildable rectangle passed that check
14:53:13  <Samu> maybe I do... during valuator, there was a house
14:53:23  <Samu> during buildable rectangle there wasn't
14:53:44  <Samu> bah
14:58:06  <Samu> trash code
14:58:38  <Samu> do i always have to check the nearest_town is still the same town?
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16:17:42  <Samu> 4k map test reachin 2051 soon
16:40:42  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on issue #6891: Question Building the project on Windows
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17:23:04  <TrueBrain> so I was wondering why I was not receiving email on .. turns out clamd was being ...... euh .. weird
17:23:21  <TrueBrain> and the email to notify me about that ... is ..... acting weird :D
17:24:40  <andythenorth> hello TrueBrain :)
17:24:54  <TrueBrain> hi :)
17:25:11  <andythenorth> "This should not happen!!  Data will be lost"
17:25:20  * andythenorth busy eh
17:25:25  <TrueBrain> clamd couldnt boot as it was running out of memory ... fantastic ... 1GB not enough for you :(
17:25:57  <Eddi|zuHause> 1GB for booting?
17:26:07  <TrueBrain> I think something got corrupted
17:27:19  <TrueBrain> right, seems it broke-ish 3 days ago
17:27:22  <TrueBrain> and it started to amplify itself
17:27:28  <andythenorth> your day is just like mine
17:27:32  <TrueBrain> every message resending etc
17:31:07  <TrueBrain> 96 mails in the inbound queue :D
17:31:52  <TrueBrain> clamd needs 700 MiB of RAM to run :o
17:31:55  <TrueBrain> what the fuck ....
17:35:45  <TrueBrain> 1 email was tried 23k times ... LOL
17:35:55  <TrueBrain> right .. it now started to dequeue again :)
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17:36:53  <Wolf01> o/
17:40:11  <TrueBrain> I always disliked clamd .. but what can you do :)
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17:51:45  <andythenorth> the things I do for pointless Easter Eggs :)
17:51:57  <andythenorth> changing the layout of about 20 spritesheets
17:52:04  <andythenorth> refactored 2 graphics pipelines
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17:52:17  <andythenorth> probs 4 hours actual work + thinking time
17:52:23  <Wolf01> Lol, you are a fool
17:52:26  <andythenorth> for something nobody will find
17:52:48  <Salamander> Hi, how do I estimate how much income each train trip will produce?
17:53:18  <Salamander> before I lay the tracks
17:53:25  <andythenorth> "git gud"
17:53:32  <andythenorth> oh sorry, this isn't the tank game :)
17:53:48  <andythenorth> Salamander: it's something you learn by experience only :)
17:53:55  <andythenorth> we have 'save' and 'load' :)
17:54:12  <Salamander> :]
17:54:46  <Salamander> how few tiles are too few for a train connection where a truck connection would do better?
17:54:54  * andythenorth coutns
17:55:09  <andythenorth> are you using any newgrfs?
17:55:22  <andythenorth> or just base game?
17:55:27  <Salamander> yes, a bunch
17:55:40  <andythenorth> depends on the newgrfs, I wouldn't run a train less than about 16 tiles
17:55:46  <andythenorth> but it's very variable
17:55:56  <Salamander> so, once more, save/load? :]
17:56:14  <Salamander> let's try this another way
17:56:24  <Salamander> could you point me to the source code which calculates this?
17:56:37  <Salamander> assuming its not spread all over the palce
17:57:15  <andythenorth> it's probably in station or vehicle
17:57:19  <andythenorth> I am not sure :)
17:58:16  <andythenorth> I am looking for CargoPayment
17:59:04  <andythenorth> sorry didn't find an answer
18:00:53  <Salamander> thank you for looking
18:00:58  <Salamander> how nice that openttd uses github \o/
18:01:50  <Salamander> I haven't played for some years, so I downloaded the latest release a few days ago, and was stunned by the amount of addons and the level of detail
18:03:02  <andythenorth> we have all been busy :D
18:04:06  <Salamander> well done
18:05:49  <andythenorth> this is my last 36 hours with Iron Horse dev
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18:42:23  <andythenorth> I got a new text editor
18:42:28  <andythenorth> it's remarkable
18:46:11  <andythenorth> it autocompletes things like brackets and quotes
18:46:27  <andythenorth> and also suggests autocompletions for varnames and stuff
18:46:45  <andythenorth> my old editor was basically notepad with syntax highlighting :P
18:46:50  <andythenorth> I've caught up to 1997
18:47:23  <frosch123> if you use "smart" editors you have to stick to one though
18:47:39  <frosch123> otherwise it's hard to predict what you need to type yourself and what is autocompleted
18:47:48  <frosch123> so you always have to reread what you typed
18:48:39  <frosch123> sometimes i find lines ending in ";;" at work
18:48:59  <andythenorth> that happened already
18:49:01  <frosch123> one ; autocompleted, one ; typed manually without noticing that the editor alread yput one
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18:54:11  <Samu> is zuu responsible for 90% of ai libraries?
18:55:28  <andythenorth> 99%
19:00:33  <andythenorth> I blame ebay
19:01:28  <andythenorth> keeps showing me grey hoppers (drawn)
19:01:36  <andythenorth> and brown ones (many hours of work to achieve) :P
19:10:04  <Samu> are rail/road tiles tiles of type road or rail?
19:10:11  <Samu> i forgot
19:13:34  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] MrOriKlein commented on issue #6899: Not clear when an opponent has exclusive transport rights
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19:17:32  <frosch123> 39 new mails, was it necessary to fix the server? :p
19:17:44  <andythenorth> rule: select all mail, delete
19:18:07  <Samu> return IsTileType(t, MP_ROAD) && IsLevelCrossing(t);
19:18:32  <Samu> well, why is it in the AIRail category, it only confuses
19:19:21  <Samu> should be in AIRoad, or at least AIRoad should also have it
19:19:29  <Samu> just saying :(
19:21:04  <andythenorth> so
19:21:19  <andythenorth> definitely I can't have 2 vehicle bits for a depot flip cycle? o_O
19:21:20  <andythenorth>
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21:02:01  <Samu> This script took too long in the Load function. Script is not started.
21:02:04  <Samu> HALP
21:02:07  <Samu> what is this
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22:01:53  <Samu> problem solved
22:06:01  <Samu>     function Save() { 	    while(!loading);         AILog.Warning("Saving...");
22:06:10  <Samu> is that while gonna do what I think it's gonna do?
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22:13:06  <glx> infinite loop when loading is false, if that's what you think
22:34:40  <Samu> should be loading is true, my bad
22:35:16  <Samu> 	    while(loading) { 		    AILog.Warning("Still loading, can't save yet...") 		}
22:38:07  <Samu> i dont understand
22:38:18  <Samu> if it isn't loading any data, how come it is saved?
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22:45:23  <Samu> there's something going on... if I didn't let the AI load the data from the save, how come when I save and load it back, the data is there?
22:45:25  <Samu> magic?
22:46:46  <Samu> this does not make any sense!
22:46:47  <Samu> .
22:48:21  <Samu> does this mean I don't need to load any data at all? i dont understand what's going on, why is the data there
22:48:48  <glx> loading happens only when you load the savegame
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22:52:42  <Samu> but...
22:53:10  <Samu> i didn't load the data in the Load() function
22:53:19  <Samu> i moved it to Start()
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22:55:12  <Samu> it didn't start
22:55:21  <Samu> or at least I don't think it did
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23:02:02  <Samu>
23:03:15  <Samu> glx: i saved a game
23:04:02  <Samu> then i loaded it and paused the game right away, before it started main Start()
23:04:27  <Samu> so all that part from line 88 below was not executed
23:04:44  <Samu> I save at this point again
23:05:04  <Samu> I expect nothing to be saved
23:05:32  <Samu> but when I load it back, all the data is there
23:05:33  <Samu> why
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23:42:04  <Samu>
23:42:13  <Samu> this is better than an outright crash
23:42:18  <Samu> :(
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