Log for #openttd on 9th November 2018:
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05:55:55  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 opened issue #6966: GSTown.PerformTownAction crashes OpenTTD if called during world generation
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15:54:40  <nielsm> still playing arouind with this...
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18:09:56  <Wolf01> o/
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18:23:42  <Wolf01> o/
18:24:02  <nielsm> evening
18:30:33  <nielsm> I guess I should try playing a real game with that house cargo patch
18:51:54  <LordAro> pfft
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18:53:42  <andythenorth> I played a game once
18:53:44  <andythenorth> it was greaat
18:53:57  <LordAro> tanks?
18:54:00  <andythenorth> nielsm: you should play test my newgrfs :P
18:54:04  <andythenorth> LordAro: funny you should mention that
18:54:12  * andythenorth tanking now
18:56:22  <nielsm> I hope if the patch goes in, the default is changed away from original btw ;)
18:56:36  <Wolf01> I'm playing for real with my new lego microbots
18:57:23  <andythenorth> nielsm: Horse 2, not even a beta yet, but eh :P
18:57:45  <andythenorth> you should probably play with default vehicles though
18:57:49  <andythenorth> for balance reasons
18:58:00  <andythenorth> I would test these patches too
18:58:05  <andythenorth> if I had a clean compile :P
19:03:31  <Wolf01> andythenorth
19:06:25  <andythenorth> Wolf01: FIRS in lego?
19:06:34  <Wolf01> Yeah, why not?
19:07:02  <andythenorth> it's a series, looks like a coal mine too?
19:07:07  <andythenorth> looks like Faller HO buildings
19:07:41  <andythenorth>
19:11:52  <Wolf01>
19:12:46  <Wolf01> seem really good
19:14:43  <Wolf01> the blast furnace is gorgeous
19:14:56  <frosch123> hmm.. dwarf factorio
19:17:31  <andythenorth> yeah he's doing Faller kits
19:17:32  <andythenorth> and FIRS :P
19:18:29  <andythenorth>
19:19:13  <andythenorth> ][3]-15842-p.jpg
19:19:21  <andythenorth> I considered same for game sprites
19:19:28  <andythenorth> did I do a concrete works?
19:19:29  <andythenorth> hmm no
19:22:42  <frosch123> does hog have a conrete mixing truck?
19:24:05  <andythenorth> nope
19:24:07  <andythenorth> considered it
19:24:16  <andythenorth> what does it deliver though? o_O
19:24:35  <andythenorth> I considered some kind of building site industry, but it's weird
19:24:45  <andythenorth> houses accept concrete? o_O
19:25:48  <nielsm> hmm :s
19:25:52  <nielsm> it didn't do that before
19:26:06  <nielsm> I've also seen helipad sprites overlap the helipad recently
19:26:14  <nielsm> helipad overlapping helicopter *
19:26:43  <frosch123> ctrl+B
19:27:00  <frosch123> (does it need dev tools active?)
19:27:21  <nielsm> I do have the dev tools enabled
19:28:21  <nielsm> doesn't reproduce reliably, seems to also depend on position of vehicles on screen
19:28:23  <frosch123> hmm, you mean "recently"? try without 25ab9c19?
19:28:59  <nielsm> the sprite sorting performance patch, I presume?
19:29:12  <frosch123> yes
19:29:30  <frosch123> i did not check the last version, so no idea what it actually did
19:30:01  <frosch123> but spritesorting is not well-defined, so always magical :)
19:30:13  <nielsm> recompiling
19:31:47  <nielsm> yeah not immediately seeing anything with that reverted
19:37:27  <nielsm> this is pretty good, if I am to say myself:
19:37:41  <nielsm> (cargo amounts, profits)
19:42:42  <andythenorth> so this rescales pax generation per house?
19:42:52  * andythenorth didn't read all the memos
19:43:04  <nielsm> yes
19:43:33  <nielsm> if you want some numbers
19:43:47  <nielsm> I'm playing with the bitcount2 algorithm here
19:44:08  <nielsm> the numbers are pax generated across 5000 tile ticks
19:45:00  <andythenorth> I'm not going to ask how you raised the floor while compressing the ceiling :)
19:45:11  <andythenorth> but it might make a big worthwhile difference to the game
19:45:18  <andythenorth> as long as it doesn't get too compressed
19:45:20  <nielsm>
19:45:40  <nielsm> it's actually that the original is scaled by roughly n^2
19:46:38  <andythenorth> very silly :)
19:47:13  <andythenorth> explains a lot
19:48:39  <nielsm> those 5000 tile ticks is a little more than 47 years
19:50:23  <nielsm> which means a size 5 house might generate 2 passengers in a good year with the original algorithm
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19:52:18  <nielsm> while a size 200 house would spew 1000 passengers out every year
19:58:14  <andythenorth> oof
20:05:18  <Wolf01> Mmmh, my city is completely locked up on a huge traffic jam... I need to put more roads and fewer houses
20:13:31  <nielsm> well even with this it can still be difficult to control:
20:15:18  <andythenorth> well
20:15:20  <nielsm> (cargodist probably makes the numbers bigger than they strictly need to be)
20:15:26  <andythenorth> it's still a transport game :)
20:15:38  <nielsm> true, it needs stuff to transport :P
20:15:56  <nielsm> though the abundancy of cargo might make the game part too easy
20:16:04  <andythenorth> you need metro trains :P
20:19:48  <nielsm> I'd really like to lower the chance of generation just a bit, but making a 1:3 chance with bits is annoying (I don't want to work it out atm)
20:21:44  <frosch123> scale the population? fake_population = setting * real_population / 16 with setting 8..23 or something
20:22:48  <frosch123> somewhen i wondered whether there is too little mail to transport
20:26:32  <nielsm> I think the best way to adjust generation of the bitcount alg is to adjust this probability:
20:27:53  <nielsm> a 1:3 chance could maybe be counting bits set of two chosen equals to bits set in six chosen
20:28:13  <frosch123> 5/16 is pretty much 1:3
20:30:04  <nielsm> I'll try switching to the flat distribution low range alg instead
20:30:15  <nielsm> see if the amounts feel better here
20:30:48  <frosch123> how much is the flat/gaussian distribution noticeable?
20:31:24  <frosch123> the more houses there are the more both are averaged
20:31:45  <frosch123> i think making them very variadic for low house amounts makes the game more interesting
20:32:45  <nielsm> I don't really notice it, I guess
20:34:14  <nielsm>  <- changed alg in jan 1960
20:35:10  <nielsm> the bus in the small town makes significantly less profit now
20:41:25  <nielsm> the low-range flat distribution is probably better from a difficulty perspective, although my perception might be skewed by experience ;)
20:42:47  <nielsm> the medium and high levels would seem to make passengers too easy to profit on but are probably interesting for optimization challenge games
20:43:06  <frosch123> well, the total amount of passengers is one thing. but i wonder whether it is possible to actually make the amounts vary, or how many houses does to take to average out any deviations
20:43:19  <nielsm> binomial might be interesting for realism nerds (since it kind-of simulates individual coin flips per potential pax)
20:43:40  <nielsm> but should probably also be tuneable in how much it generates
20:43:46  <frosch123> i think "realism" is a big trap here
20:44:24  <frosch123> if your algorithm has many small random elements, they average out, and in the end there is no randomness
20:44:36  <frosch123> that's kind of what happens with "smooth economy"
20:45:04  <frosch123> if has many small adjustmnets whcih cancel each other out, so there is rarely a big change like with "non-smooth economy"
20:45:11  <nielsm> right, "nothing big ever really happens"?
20:45:26  <frosch123> same applies to ecs. it models so many small details which cancel/average each other, that in the end it does not have any effect
20:46:32  <frosch123> so, i would always go for something that makes the game more diverse than realistic :)
20:46:49  <nielsm> I'm too tired to set anything up now, but my sim could probably be used to build a "full town sim" kind of thing
20:46:59  <nielsm>
20:47:00  <frosch123> diverse can make the game interesting, realism can be quite boring
20:47:39  <andythenorth> frosch123: there is too little mail to transport
20:47:49  <andythenorth> or it needs adjusted in newgrf, by increasing value
20:47:52  <frosch123> nielsm: you computed average amounts, can you also compute a standard deviation?
20:49:00  <frosch123> andythenorth: currently nielsm's patch had one setting to adjust 3/4 things: 1. amounts of pax, 2. amount of mail, 3./4. variation fo pax/mail amounts
20:49:20  <frosch123> i try to figure out whether 1. and 2. should be different settings, and whether 3./4. is noticeable at all :)
20:50:03  <nielsm> stddev is probably most interesting if you look at a "whole town" sim, i.e. generation for a cluster of buildings in catchment area of a station
20:50:46  <frosch123> huh? for whole town sim the distribution per house does not matter. it all averages out to the "expected value"
20:50:53  <nielsm> and then sum up a month of values at a time
20:51:22  <frosch123> with gaussian distribution
20:51:50  <frosch123> you can only make small towns interesting, big towns will always be boring :p
20:52:24  <frosch123> (wrt. continuous cargo generation)
20:57:55  <andythenorth> I suspect variation is rarely useful
21:08:39  <andythenorth> I am curious about variation between towns
21:08:53  <andythenorth> and whether there's a single factor that could be exposed to GS or something
21:10:58  <nielsm> something like residents in one town being more likely to take transit than in another town?
21:11:22  <nielsm> I think station rating already covers that plenty
21:11:38  <andythenorth> I was thinking of total generation
21:11:46  <andythenorth> e.g. some towns might like to travel more than others :P
21:11:54  <nielsm> unless you want towns with super angry mayors running smear campaigns against you :P
21:12:10  <andythenorth> tie it to advertising campaign :P
21:12:28  <andythenorth> I only ever use 'bribe' though, dunno what those others do
21:12:43  <nielsm> ad campaign literally raises station ratings
21:12:57  <nielsm> temporarily
21:13:42  <nielsm> building status gives a permanent station rating boost to stations near the town center
21:14:09  <nielsm> (I don't know if it ties to the town zones, population, or just a fixed range)
21:14:22  <nielsm> statue*
21:15:08  <nielsm> funding new buildings is almost always a waste
21:16:22  <frosch123> "commuter towns" vs "tourism towns"
21:16:49  <nielsm> now you're getting into simutrans turf aren't you :P
21:17:11  <andythenorth> one day there'll be a reason to deliver goods
21:17:19  <frosch123> no idea, haven't looked at it in 12 years
21:17:44  <nielsm> play tropical climate and deliver both food and water
21:20:14  <andythenorth> meh :)
21:20:24  <andythenorth> I liked arctic for food above snowline
21:20:36  <andythenorth> everything I want is in GS already
21:20:40  <andythenorth> but GS are single-purpose
21:20:43  <frosch123> toyland is evil
21:20:53  <frosch123> when towns grow they switch from accepting sweets to fizzy drinks
21:20:56  <andythenorth> oof
21:21:02  <andythenorth> that is evil
21:21:30  <frosch123> if you want a constant acceptance for sweets you either have to move the station or prevent the town from growing
21:22:00  <andythenorth> ha ha
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