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Log for #openttd on 15th January 2019:
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00:00:10  <peter1138> There is m8 now, heh.
00:00:13  <Eddi|zuHause> superblocks are also 2^n-aligned
00:00:22  <peter1138> But not much use for narrow paths, such as canals.
00:00:31  <Eddi|zuHause> canals are not the problem
00:00:36  <peter1138> Oh, true.
00:00:46  <peter1138> PR it ;)
00:02:05  <peter1138> I can probably do the superblock marks, but no idea how to plug that into the pathfinder.
00:02:24  <LordAro> press buttons until it works
00:02:27  <peter1138> :D
00:02:42  <Eddi|zuHause> a superblock is just a more complicated follow_track function, as you have more entry and exit points
00:03:06  <peter1138> Also your superblocks could potentially have dozens of exits and entrances.
00:03:16  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
00:03:24  <peter1138> And the cost would differ depending on where you start.
00:03:25  <Eddi|zuHause> but all the internal paths can be ignored
00:03:50  <Eddi|zuHause> you can calculate the cost based on entry and exit direction
00:03:59  <Eddi|zuHause> because you know all the tiles inbetween are empty
00:04:05  <LordAro> (and distance)
00:04:55  <Samu> could pathfinding be multi-threaded?
00:05:14  <Eddi|zuHause> you need some idea how to combine all the touching tiles between two superblocks
00:05:55  <peter1138> Samu, no.
00:07:22  <Eddi|zuHause> but that could be an optimisation on top, it probably is already an improvement even if you consider every possible connection between 2 superblocks individually
00:07:56  <Eddi|zuHause> sidenote: i don't think you need m8, water should have plenty of free bits
00:08:41  <peter1138> True, it's only clear water.
00:11:41  <peter1138> Hmm, you could perhaps extend it to rectangular superblocks.
00:12:07  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but that makes checking/storing it more tricky
00:12:09  <peter1138> Although that complicates path lengths I guess.
00:12:18  <peter1138> Does it?
00:12:33  <peter1138> Still 2^ aligned, just separate x/y.
00:12:45  <Eddi|zuHause> that might work
00:13:18  <Eddi|zuHause> but it might not help much, and you have potential conflicts whether to extend in x or y direction
00:24:23  <Samu> cache
00:25:07  <Samu> gonna experiment making it pathfind every other tile
00:26:44  <Samu> (DistanceManhattan(tile, v->dest_tile) > SHIP_MAX_ORDER_DISTANCE + 5) & 1
00:26:46  <Samu> keks
00:30:28  <Samu> erm, i'm doing it wrong
00:32:36  <Samu> if (v->dest_tile == 0 || DistanceManhattan(tile, v->dest_tile) > SHIP_MAX_ORDER_DISTANCE + 5 && DistanceManhattan(tile, v->dest_tile) & 1) {
00:33:10  <peter1138> NPF works properly. It can't find a path between the two docks :p
00:37:54  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on issue #7062: Ship becomes lost if destination is greater than maximum order distance https://git.io/fhcVy
00:37:59  <Samu> oh lol, ship is lost... no, nop, it's not lost, wait, it's lost again
00:38:04  <Samu> no, not lost
00:38:38  <peter1138> If you actually only want to pathfind less frequently, you can do that a better way.
00:38:47  <peter1138> (DistanceManhattan not involved)
00:39:18  <Samu> doesn't work well, just tested, ship still doesn't go to where it should
00:40:59  <peter1138> If you don't pathfind, you have to assume a direction to continue in.
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00:41:08  <peter1138> (Or, indeed, cache the path)
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00:50:19  <Samu> (DistanceManhattan(tile, v->dest_tile) & 3) == 0
00:50:23  <Samu> this almost works
00:50:31  <Samu> ship still does weird stuff at times but...
00:50:35  <peter1138> You're barking up the wrong tree.
00:50:40  <Samu> it finds it's way
00:50:45  <Samu> ok :(
00:50:46  <peter1138> It's still wrong.
00:52:58  <Samu> what to do?
00:54:36  <Samu> 	if (v->dest_tile == 0 || DistanceManhattan(tile, v->dest_tile) > SHIP_MAX_ORDER_DISTANCE + 5 && Random() & 1) {
00:54:40  <Samu> random!
00:56:06  <Samu> it works, but yeah, it's wrong lol
00:56:22  <Samu> never know how random is random
00:57:40  <Samu> rellying on random to improve pathfinder speed
00:57:51  <Samu> erm, cpu hog
01:02:01  <Samu> this might actually be a "good enough" solution? let me try the 5000 ship savegame
01:03:03  <Samu> i suspect it too be either too spiky or too smooth
01:07:43  <Samu> hmm the ships look rather dumb
01:08:01  <Samu> doesn't look that good to the eye
01:11:46  <Samu> 5000 ships, on a 1024x1024 map with lots of water, fast forwarding at 52 fps, not too bad imo
01:12:21  <Samu> quite irregular, ranges 50-70
01:16:15  <Samu> testing without randomness
01:16:16  <Samu> brb
01:19:49  <Samu> nah
01:20:04  <Samu> getting the same fps which is strage
01:24:44  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/website] nikolas opened pull request #19: typo fix: idillic -> idyllic https://git.io/fhcoV
01:25:29  <Samu> i think it may be worth trying the && Random() & 1
01:25:36  <Samu> after the distance check
01:26:19  <Samu> track choice when it fails could be improved somewhat
01:26:45  <peter1138> It continues in the current direction.
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01:28:25  <Samu> if it goes vertical or horizontal against a coast, it could make a 45 degree turn
01:28:49  <Samu> instead of being forced to reverse
01:29:37  <Samu> depends on coast direction too I suppose
01:32:05  <Samu> i'm off to bed, take care
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01:35:02  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 opened pull request #7063: Fix: deps calculation call could fail due to command line length https://git.io/fhcKl
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09:14:03  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Gabda87 commented on pull request #7047: Add #6887: Highlight tiles within local authority of towns https://git.io/fhcxF
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09:30:33  <peter1138> Morning.
09:33:38  <andythenorth> moin
10:03:03  <peter1138> Why is my tummy rumbling? I had breakfast :S
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12:26:34  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Gabda87 opened pull request #7064: Fix #6438: raising/lowering 'Maximum no. competitors' setting in multiplayer https://git.io/fhCGC
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12:46:42  * andythenorth so hungry
12:46:45  <andythenorth> peter1138: lunch time yet?
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14:22:40  <peter1138> It was, I'd already eaten.
14:22:48  <peter1138> But only about 5-10 minutes before-hand.
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14:26:34  <Samu> mirc expires after 30 days?
14:26:35  <Samu> wtf
14:26:37  <Samu> :(
14:27:12  <peter1138> It "expires", yes.
14:27:16  <peter1138> But mIRC is pretty shit.
14:33:02  <Samu> https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/6986#issuecomment-445574298 this guy seems to be a town expert
14:33:18  <Samu> how to persuade him into looking my code?
14:33:55  <Xaroth> Ask him?
14:36:40  <andythenorth> he'll either comment on your PR because it looks interesting, or he won't
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15:00:21  <peter1138> Should I investigate super-tiles?
15:01:19  <nielsm> as in splitting the map up in blocks of tiles?
15:01:20  <andythenorth> super
15:01:23  <andythenorth> why not eh?
15:01:34  <peter1138> Not actually splitting.
15:01:37  <nielsm> macro-tiles, to make a comparison to video coding
15:01:54  <peter1138> Just recording such for open water.
15:02:44  <andythenorth> is this for pathfinding?
15:02:53  <peter1138> Yes.
15:02:54  <nielsm> yes some kind of optimization for determining water connectivity is likely good
15:03:07  <andythenorth> does it have any relevance to also giving towns blocks of super tile?
15:03:15  <peter1138> No.
15:03:17  <andythenorth> ok
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15:03:28  * andythenorth deletes all the ships
15:03:32  <andythenorth> "super"
15:04:48  <andythenorth> ha ha last 2 lines  peter1138 https://github.com/andythenorth/NotWater/issues/1#issuecomment-289422663
15:05:15  <peter1138> o
15:15:04  <peter1138> Maybe I should just test my existing caching patch a bit more. I don't think super-tiles will solve the unreachable tile issue.
15:15:45  <Eddi|zuHause> unreachable will always be the worst case
15:16:03  <peter1138> It's such a bad worst case though :)
15:16:24  <Eddi|zuHause> you can make region numbers
15:16:26  <peter1138> Ah well, at least you are less likely to have 5000 ships all concurrently doing it now.
15:16:35  <peter1138> Hmm. m8 :-)
15:16:47  <peter1138> Actually m2 is free for water tiles anyway.
15:17:37  <Eddi|zuHause> problem with region numbers is, in case of clearing a tile, you must look whether all adjacent tiles are still connected
15:17:39  <peter1138> I wonder how to calculate regions efficiently.
15:17:45  <peter1138> Heh
15:17:51  <Eddi|zuHause> and potentially allocate a new region
15:17:58  <Eddi|zuHause> and on flooding you might have to merge regions
15:18:17  <Eddi|zuHause> otherwise, it's just a flood fill
15:18:20  <peter1138> Merging is simpler than splitting, I think.
15:18:39  <Eddi|zuHause> not really
15:19:14  <Eddi|zuHause> finding tiles that are not yet in any region is a tricky part as well
15:19:19  <peter1138> Yes really. With merging you have just 1 tile that connects, you can simply mark all the other tiles in that region to the new merged region.
15:19:54  <peter1138> But for splitting you need to keep track of way more stuff.
15:20:02  <peter1138> And indeed finding the regions, yes.
15:20:18  <Eddi|zuHause> with splitting the only tricky part is to detect whether it's still connected
15:20:36  <Eddi|zuHause> once you detected that, it's again just a flood-fill
15:20:42  <andythenorth> it's really quite a nice problem
15:20:52  <peter1138> andythenorth, that sounds like volunteering :D
15:20:56  <andythenorth> nope
15:21:07  <andythenorth> but it's nicely non-trivial
15:21:16  <andythenorth> and also makes piss all difference in most games :)
15:21:34  <Eddi|zuHause> the word you were looking for is "niche" :p
15:21:56  <andythenorth> it's niche
15:22:21  <peter1138> Alternatively you can finite-size regions, and maintain a list of connected regions.
15:22:25  <peter1138> +have
15:22:55  <peter1138> Although that complicates the "can you get from here to there" test.
15:23:04  <Eddi|zuHause> someone did that with placing a bunch of buoys in the center of each region
15:34:33  <peter1138> Mint Daim bars are pretty damn good. Shame they're all processed sugar :/
15:39:55  <Eddi|zuHause> processed sugar is not worse than natural sugar
15:40:47  <peter1138> Actually the form-factor of your carbohydrates does affect things.
15:41:15  <peter1138> But yeah. Shame they're all sugar. :p
15:41:51  <Eddi|zuHause> but the most important thing is the mixture. once the sugar is removed from the original fruit (like, say, fruit juice), you've basically lost
15:42:41  <peter1138> Fruit juice is basically concentrated sugar. I haven't bought any for ages.
15:45:15  <peter1138> Over Christmas I bought a load of goodies in lots of moments of weakness :p
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15:45:52  <peter1138> Working my way through them means I've got high sugar for a bit. I could just bin them but I hate food waste.
15:48:07  <Eddi|zuHause> oh, and the worst part is when you mix sugar and proteins
15:48:21  <Eddi|zuHause> and fat
15:48:31  <Eddi|zuHause> all in one dish
15:48:35  <andythenorth> it is?
15:48:44  <andythenorth> sounds like a cheese toasty with jam to me
15:48:51  <Eddi|zuHause> exactly
15:48:59  <peter1138> No need for the jam.
15:50:45  <peter1138> Plenty of carbs in bread, though the sugar is relatively lower.
15:53:07  <peter1138> Still, the carbs gets turned into sugar anyway.
15:57:01  <nielsm> ah yay, fixed the dumb pcm buffer bug: https://0x0.st/shKd.ogg
15:57:08  <nielsm> now it's making the sound actually correct!
15:58:06  <peter1138> Hmm, sounds broken to me. Maybe that's my sound.
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15:58:53  <peter1138> Yeah it's not right.
16:00:11  <nielsm> it's wrong, but it's not chopped up
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16:00:22  <peter1138> It is choppy for me. Hmm.
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16:00:46  <nielsm> before I was mishandling the PCM buffer so half the buffer was filled with zeroes and the other half mixed-up samples
16:02:25  <nielsm> the remaining bugs should be traceable to actual faults in my reimplementation of the decoder, as opposed to dumb mistakes in pcm buffer handling
16:02:42  <nielsm> (wrote 2*n samples to the buffer and incremented pointer by n samples)
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16:30:38  <nielsm> gah okay, I'm doing _something_ bad here, because I'm hitting heap corruption triggers whenever my new code has been running
16:35:58  * peter1138 rides out the sugar crash.
16:36:17  * andythenorth wants a sugar crash
16:36:21  * andythenorth had a no-sugar crash :(
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16:40:53  <AKTheKnight> Is it a day at work if I don't have a crash at some point?
16:41:26  <Samu> i'm experimenting different costs for water stuff
16:41:29  <peter1138> It's a ssensible day.
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16:42:16  <Samu> if IsWaterTile, add a big cost, so that in essence i'm making the other water tracks cheaper for the pathfinder
16:42:42  <Samu> because they're in less quantity, i wonder if this helps pathfinding along the coast
16:43:26  <peter1138> Actually I'm probably just tired from lack of sleep, and just sat here no moving :p
16:43:47  * andythenorth just had a nap
16:43:49  <andythenorth> pretty unwanted
16:43:52  <Samu> pathfind in less node searchs
16:43:56  <Samu> what i'm aiming
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16:45:36  <nielsm> https://0x0.st/shPu.ogg  almost recognizable now, but still massively broken
16:45:41  <nielsm> and still triggers heap corruption
16:47:41  <AKTheKnight> Can you add that as an actual soundtrack? I kinda like it
16:47:49  <nielsm> :P
16:48:01  <Samu> uh oh i just broke yapf
16:48:07  <Samu> costs are important after all
16:48:18  <Samu> what was a valid path, now became a lost path
16:48:31  <nielsm> the bugs when I was working on the GM decoder for dos music were more interesting :)
16:52:22  <nielsm> AKTheKnight: https://0x0.st/shP_.mkv
16:55:13  <peter1138> nielsm, lol, after the intro worked so perfectly ...
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17:03:49  <Samu> just tested no penalty for making turns, and it appears yapf does find paths slightly faster, 1 test case though
17:04:00  <Samu> ships dont slow down on turns
17:05:04  <Samu> gonna test with 5000 ships, brb
17:05:49  <Samu> oh wait, this is debug mode, crap
17:14:50  <Samu> meh, with 5000 ships the difference is negligible, not worth the effort
17:15:33  <Samu> penalty for curves apparently does help 1 or 2%
17:16:40  <Samu> @calc 10.40 / 10.20
17:16:41  <DorpsGek> Samu: 1.01960784314
17:16:51  <Samu> 2%
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17:25:55  <andythenorth> bad features
17:25:58  <andythenorth> are TMWFTLB
17:26:03  * andythenorth does it anyway
17:26:10  <Samu> holy crap beguglevel npf=9 is suicide
17:26:13  <Samu> debug
17:32:26  <peter1138> It's a lot of useful debug information.
17:32:32  <peter1138> You probably don't want to use it with 5000 ships.
17:33:33  <peter1138> I love how you just get random ideas and keep plugging away with different variations without really knowing what you're doing :p
17:34:06  <andythenorth> peter1138: I assume you're talking to me ^ :P
17:34:12  <peter1138> Yes of course :-)
17:34:19  <andythenorth> sounds like UI design
17:34:21  <andythenorth> and newgrfs
17:34:33  <andythenorth> and my entire career
17:34:40  <andythenorth> also children
17:34:47  <andythenorth> very much children
17:35:04  <andythenorth> so I've coded EMUs that are slow-ish
17:35:09  <andythenorth> unless you attach them to an engine
17:35:14  <andythenorth> then they're fast-ish
17:35:19  <andythenorth> worst BAD FEATURE so far?
17:35:35  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
17:35:56  <andythenorth> peak BAD FEATURE
17:36:15  <peter1138> Is it the R word?
17:36:39  <LordAro> reggae
17:36:55  <andythenorth> reggae sauce
17:37:09  <Samu> horizontal tracks cost 71 on yapf, 70 on npf, is that intended?
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17:37:24  <Samu> horiz/verti
17:37:36  <LordAro> Samu: probably not, but i don't expect it to make any significant difference
17:37:58  <andythenorth> it's like realism, if I controlled reality
17:38:05  <andythenorth> it's not at all like realism otherwise :P
17:38:11  <andythenorth> I might retcon it somehow though
17:38:39  <andythenorth> just amuses me to hide stupid features :D
17:38:41  <peter1138> Damn, Continuum shaders are kinda slow.
17:38:50  <peter1138> 10 fps :/
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17:39:11  <andythenorth> pedal faster
17:39:46  <Samu> sqrt(2)/2*NPF_TILE_LENGTH =~ 0.7071
17:40:24  <Samu> #define STRAIGHT_TRACK_LENGTH 7071/10000
17:40:36  <Samu> yapf doesn't do any of this math
17:40:44  <Samu> it just says it's 71
17:41:01  <peter1138> Close enough.
17:43:07  <andythenorth> hmm
17:43:17  <andythenorth> should I also make it change the speed
17:43:26  <andythenorth> if the engine is at the rear of the consist?
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17:49:05  <andythenorth> don't think I have a var for that :P
17:49:07  * andythenorth checks
17:50:15  <andythenorth> nah
17:50:21  <andythenorth> not trivially
17:50:32  <andythenorth> requires pissing around with var 61
17:53:46  <Eddi|zuHause> just check the position in consist in the engine?
17:53:58  <Eddi|zuHause> (works only for lowering speed, not raising)
17:54:14  <Eddi|zuHause> but i still don't think you're going in any sane direction
17:54:19  <andythenorth> I'm seeing if I can count IDs
17:54:25  <andythenorth> without too much nml
17:56:02  <Eddi|zuHause> there's a var for that i think
17:57:57  <andythenorth> there is
17:58:16  <Samu> the real time it takes to walk a tile in axis direction is 16*256* advance speed i think, gonna recheck
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18:09:59  * andythenorth wonders what the worst feature I could add is?
18:10:16  <andythenorth> snail has implemented brake force in french NG set, that's quite interesting
18:12:09  <Eddi|zuHause> in some sense snail is even worse than george :p
18:12:59  <Samu> oops i forked andythenorth notwater stuff by mistake
18:13:04  <andythenorth> it's comprehensive and detailed and works though
18:13:17  <andythenorth> there is a clear theme to it, and a big user guide
18:13:37  <Samu> how to delete a fork?
18:14:14  <Samu> ah, got it https://github.com/SamuXarick/NotWater/settings
18:16:11  <Samu> wanted to head to my own fork, and instead it did that :(
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18:19:24  <Samu> https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/blob/master/src/vehicle_base.h#L377 don't you mean in horizontal / vertical, or non-X and non-Y?
18:20:28  <Samu> it's confusing
18:21:28  <Samu> The vehicle speed is scaled by 3/4 when not moving in a DiagDir direction due to the shorter distance I think would be correct
18:22:40  <Samu> or i don't know the meaning of scaled by
18:35:16  <Samu> @calc 16*256
18:35:16  <DorpsGek> Samu: 4096
18:35:20  <andythenorth> I could add different types of brakes?
18:35:33  <Samu> decelleration formula
18:35:46  <andythenorth> compatibility rules for multi-head engines?
18:35:58  <andythenorth> pikka already did pax train electric supply :P
18:36:00  <andythenorth> and deleted it
18:36:16  <Eddi|zuHause> i imagine so
18:36:38  <Samu> a tile has 16 sublocations, and needs 256 progress units to advance 1 sublocation
18:36:57  <Samu> and vehicle moves at full speed
18:37:05  <Eddi|zuHause> pikka had this minimalist phase where EVERY feature is a BAD FEATURE
18:37:25  <Samu> another tile, has 8 sublocations, and needs 256 progress units to advance 1 sublocation, and the vehicle moves at 3/4 speed
18:37:37  <Eddi|zuHause> "only 10 engines" and such
18:37:38  <andythenorth> pikka need to reset :)
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18:37:55  <Samu> for pathfinder cost penalties, if the first one costs 100, what would the other cost?
18:38:01  <Samu> 75 or 37.5?
18:38:09  <andythenorth> so should I do variable running costs for engines, relative to powered-ness on current railtype?
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18:39:21  <Wolf01> o/
18:40:09  <andythenorth> might need a var for 'powered-ness' :P
18:40:36  <Samu> I need a math expert :|
18:41:18  <Eddi|zuHause> *cough*
18:41:30  <Samu> i'm more inclined towards 75 because it makes more sense in my mind, lol
18:41:37  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z updated pull request #7000: Add: Var 6A, a clone of Var 4A for querying poweredness compared to a… https://git.io/fhI7h
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18:44:02  <Wolf01> <Samu> I need a math expert :| -> @calc?
18:44:32  <Samu> 75 or 37.5?
18:46:22  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: calculation has nothing to do with maths
18:47:24  <Wolf01> I would use integers
18:49:29  <Eddi|zuHause> aw, i forgot git add :/
18:49:42  <Eddi|zuHause> how do i add just one changeset in a file?
18:50:09  <LordAro> git add <file> :P
18:50:33  <LordAro> Oh, a single changeset: -p
18:52:14  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z updated pull request #7000: Add: Var 6A, a clone of Var 4A for querying poweredness compared to a… https://git.io/fhI7h
18:54:06  <Samu> the length of a straight track is 50
18:54:20  <Samu> and the vehicle moves at 3/4
18:54:28  <Samu> @calc 50 * 3/4
18:54:28  <DorpsGek> Samu: 37.5
18:54:31  <Samu> :/
18:54:39  <Samu> cant use decimals, what can i do
18:55:06  <Samu> double everything
18:55:34  <Eddi|zuHause> someone should look over my bitmath and tell me whether i got that right
18:58:34  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z updated pull request #7000: Add: Var 6A, a clone of Var 4A for querying poweredness compared to a… https://git.io/fhI7h
18:59:07  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z updated pull request #7000: Add: Var 6A, a clone of Var 4A for querying poweredness compared to a… https://git.io/fhI7h
19:04:43  <Samu> i just made opf ships drunk
19:04:46  <Samu> erm, npf
19:05:11  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: you can issue sparks from somewhere else :P
19:05:39  <Samu> it looks the answer is not 37.5, or i'm not sure i'm visualizing this right
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19:06:33  <andythenorth> maybe I'm wrong, maybe effect vehicles aren't in tthe spec :)
19:07:18  <Samu> a diag track has 16 sub locations, a vehicle needs 256 progress units to advance a sub location
19:07:37  <Samu> a horz/vert track has 8
19:08:00  <Samu> and vehicles move at 3/4 on them
19:08:26  <Samu> which is like saying it needs 256*4/3 ?
19:08:36  <Samu> @calc 256*4/3
19:08:36  <DorpsGek> Samu: 341.333333333
19:09:40  <Samu> @calc 256/16
19:09:40  <DorpsGek> Samu: 16
19:09:52  <Samu> @calc 256*4/3/8
19:09:52  <DorpsGek> Samu: 42.6666666667
19:10:12  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you can move them forwards and backwards
19:10:20  <Eddi|zuHause> but not up and down, or sideways
19:10:33  * andythenorth makes peace with that
19:10:36  <Samu> @calc (256*4/3) / 8
19:10:37  <DorpsGek> Samu: 42.6666666667
19:10:45  <Samu> this looks so wrong
19:10:49  <Samu> i hate math
19:10:50  <andythenorth> sure I've seen effect vehicles spec somewhere in frosch123 wiki :)
19:10:52  <Eddi|zuHause> plus if you want to make 3rd rail sparks, you also need to know which side the 3rd rail is on
19:10:57  <andythenorth> oof
19:11:00  <andythenorth> let's not?
19:11:08  <andythenorth> tile effects :P
19:11:29  <andythenorth> I tried to add 3rd rail flash to 00 trains once
19:11:39  <andythenorth> with an LED, a reed switch and a magnet
19:12:38  <frosch123> https://wiki.openttd.org/Frosch/New_Smoke#Custom_effects <- not implemented
19:13:01  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: when andy says "frosch wiki" i'm immediately assuming it's not implemented :p
19:13:46  <Eddi|zuHause> about the railtype speed, i'm somehow questioning the usefulness if that, since you don't know whether that's the currently limiting speed
19:13:48  <frosch123> rude, about 1/4 is implemennted
19:13:52  <andythenorth> the frosch wiki is a happy place
19:13:57  <andythenorth> things go there to ripen
19:14:10  <andythenorth> if yexo was here, more of it would be picked
19:14:26  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: but the implemented parts should also be on other wikis :p
19:14:48  <andythenorth> how do we get a new yexo?
19:14:49  <andythenorth> :P
19:15:01  <frosch123> buy google
19:15:45  <andythenorth> ooo
19:15:56  <andythenorth> I mean it's possible, in theory
19:18:20  <Eddi|zuHause> uhm... need to rethink these last commits
19:26:34  <Eddi|zuHause> i think i took a wrong turn somewhere
19:26:43  <Eddi|zuHause> in albuquerque
19:27:26  <peter1138> herpderp
19:28:32  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z updated pull request #7000: Add: Var 6A, a clone of Var 4A for querying poweredness compared to a… https://git.io/fhI7h
19:32:17  <Samu> if npf is similar to yapf, why does it require about 25000 nodes to find what yapf finds in 10000?
19:33:25  <peter1138> They're both A*
19:33:46  <andythenorth> why did yapf 'replace' npf? o_O
19:33:55  <peter1138> Optimisations affect how it works.
19:34:20  <frosch123> yapf has a cache
19:34:45  <Eddi|zuHause> yapf was written by a crazyperson
19:34:59  <frosch123> npf visits every tile whenever searching
19:35:11  <frosch123> yapf caches segments and their cost between junctions
19:35:31  <Samu> for ships there is no cache, if i'm not mistaken
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19:36:07  <frosch123> which works well if you have more track than junctions
19:37:30  <LordAro> so turning large sections of open water into "segments" would work well then!
19:38:29  <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: that's where the supertiles would come in
19:38:43  <Eddi|zuHause> not quite the same thing, though
19:38:58  <andythenorth> implicit bouys
19:39:02  <frosch123> ships have two issues
19:39:32  <frosch123> 1. there are junctions everywhere, so pathfinder has lots of options. 2. there are junctions everywhere, so the ship has to redecide on every tile
19:39:37  <Samu> yapf is better for ships, but I don't know why, can't figure the reason myself
19:39:46  <Samu> tested
19:40:07  <frosch123> somewhen i tried to address (2), by remembering how many tiles a ship won't change direction before searching next time
19:40:15  <frosch123> but did not finish :p
19:40:24  <Eddi|zuHause> was just about to ask how far that got :p
19:41:03  <peter1138> Why do you think there is no cache?
19:41:20  <Samu> there is a cache that always returns false
19:41:28  <Samu> so it's not enabled where i tested?
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19:43:47  <Samu> seems to be a thing for roads and rails using pfs if I recall
19:44:05  <Samu> caches the entire road segment until it finds a turn
19:44:24  <Samu> for ships... i can't see anything
19:45:20  <andythenorth> do ships really pathfind on every tile? :o
19:45:25  <andythenorth> instead of caching a vector?
19:49:40  <Samu> every tiles
19:49:55  <Samu> maybe except aqueducts
19:49:58  <Samu> not sure
19:57:08  <andythenorth> what is the problem with ships?
19:57:34  <Eddi|zuHause> there is no problem with ships, everything works fine
19:57:58  <andythenorth> why do they need all these changes then? :P
19:58:07  <andythenorth> I just use ships in my game
19:58:12  <andythenorth> and if I use it a lot, it gets slow
19:58:16  <andythenorth> [shrug]
19:58:24  <nielsm> hmm in its current broken form, the adlib player takes about 3 ms to produce 8192 samples at 44.1 khz
19:58:32  <nielsm> in a release build
19:58:49  <nielsm> (on my machine)
19:59:34  <glx> and 8192@44.1 time lenght is ?
20:00:32  <nielsm> so about 16 ms out of every second is spent on music?
20:00:40  <nielsm> (which runs on a separate thread)
20:01:06  <peter1138> Seems ok.
20:01:20  <peter1138> There's a reason these things were done in hardware back in the 90s.
20:01:24  <nielsm> yes :)
20:01:50  <nielsm> and besides the hardware synth is analog signal generators with digital controls
20:02:21  <glx> it should be possible to prepare a sample batch while another is actually played
20:02:34  <nielsm> true
20:02:54  <nielsm> that just requires some synchronization I'm not into doing right now
20:03:16  <nielsm> wow something breaks completely in sawyer's tune
20:03:23  <peter1138> That shouldn't be necessary.
20:03:24  <nielsm> a few places it hangs weirdly
20:03:42  <peter1138> The audio is already buffered, so it already is being played concurrently with generation.
20:03:45  <glx> fill the buffer, wait for mixer to ask for the buffer
20:03:59  <glx> give it and prepare the next batch
20:04:37  <glx> you'll still need to copy your buffer into the mixer provided buffer
20:07:33  <nielsm> sinister... and not deterministic! https://0x0.st/shNi.webm
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20:10:11  <Eddi|zuHause> very 80s
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20:23:18  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z updated pull request #7000: Some NewGRF variables concerning railtypes https://git.io/fhI7h
20:25:34  <Eddi|zuHause> i think this is how far i can sensibly do it righ now, the parts about what's the speed limit and what's the cruising state is a bit more elaborate
20:26:24  <andythenorth> I missed those proposals in the comments
20:26:28  <andythenorth> but they're very interesting
20:27:14  <Eddi|zuHause> still unsure about the speed limit thing in var 4A
20:28:28  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on issue #6947: A new variable Vehicle is loading required https://git.io/fhCj1
20:29:15  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on pull request #7000: Some NewGRF variables concerning railtypes https://git.io/fhCjH
20:30:56  <Eddi|zuHause> speed limit thing might be something for GroundVehicle rather than Train?
20:31:08  <andythenorth> so
20:31:20  <Eddi|zuHause> planes could also have speed limit while taxiing
20:31:26  <andythenorth> I could make a dual-mode 3rd-rail and overhead AC loco? :P
20:32:17  <andythenorth> planes with a pushback tug :P
20:33:09  <andythenorth> not sure what I'd do with the speed limit var, but I'm not george or snail et al
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20:37:28  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm thinking a "speed_limit" variable, and a "speed_limit_flags" variable in Vehicle, and the acceleration/movement code sets this appropriately. on every line that sets the speed_limit variable, it is compared with the current speed_limit value, and if lower, speed_limit_flags is cleared and new bit is set (depeding on line), if equal, lime-bit is added to the current flags, and if higher, nothing is done
20:37:51  <Eddi|zuHause> *line-bit
20:38:17  <peter1138> Hmm, right, maybe I should work on some things I promised, or have already started on.
20:38:33  <peter1138> I wonder why gitg removed its stash viewer. That was really useful.
20:38:33  <Eddi|zuHause> "speed_limit_flags" might be "vehicle", "track", "bridge", "station approach", "timetable", ...
20:39:08  <Eddi|zuHause> "power exhausted"?
20:39:19  <Eddi|zuHause> (i.e. acceleration was 0)
20:39:57  <Eddi|zuHause> or "te exhausted"?
20:41:13  <andythenorth> peter1138: work on new things!
20:41:15  * andythenorth always does
20:41:19  <peter1138> :/
20:41:25  <andythenorth> way more fun
20:41:33  <peter1138> Hmm, ships stopping in locks...?
20:41:35  <andythenorth> no need for docs and making the test pas
20:41:39  <peter1138> That's about 10 years old.
20:41:39  <andythenorth> and all that crap
20:41:46  <andythenorth> multi-docks :P
20:41:49  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: newgrf statemachines
20:42:05  <peter1138> Not sure that was something I ever planned, Eddi|zuHause;
20:42:07  <andythenorth> newgrf station tiles that can show more than one cargo (across the whole station)
20:42:17  <andythenorth> flat docks
20:42:21  <Eddi|zuHause> (would cover ship locks, drawbridges, highways/onramps, airports)
20:42:39  <andythenorth> flat docks are allegedly in the spec already, mumble mumble TTDP
20:42:41  <Eddi|zuHause> (tram turning loops)
20:42:44  * andythenorth didn't check
20:43:03  <andythenorth> unrelated: anyone know how physics works?
20:43:39  * andythenorth wonders about an acceleration factor, it's a proxy for gearing, peak torque etc
20:43:42  <andythenorth> TE isn't the same
20:44:05  <Eddi|zuHause> ?
20:44:05  <andythenorth> TE has almost no effect unless you add enough weight to a train that it's on it's knees on a slope
20:45:02  <andythenorth> the significant property for train performance in game is purely HP, except for pathological combination of weight + slope
20:45:13  <Eddi|zuHause> train needs a startup force? won't move unless TE > that force?
20:45:31  <andythenorth> yes, but if TE is 'enough' there isn't much more observable difference
20:45:37  <Eddi|zuHause> yes.
20:45:42  <andythenorth> I did learn how TE works once, and I believe that's correct
20:46:03  <andythenorth> whereas acceleration depends on the rate of work or so
20:46:18  <peter1138> problem is we use the max TE all the time, which in reality would result in an... uncomfortable and inefficient acceleration.
20:46:24  <Eddi|zuHause> TE is the limiting factor on very low speeds (<20km/h or so)
20:46:28  <andythenorth> yes
20:46:37  <andythenorth> for acceleration, mechanical or electrical factors like gearing, wheel size, or max watts on the motor are the factors
20:46:48  <peter1138> yes
20:46:50  <andythenorth> TL;DR I'd like to be able to make some trains suited for many stops
20:46:55  <andythenorth> and some for few stops
20:47:03  <andythenorth> it's hardly necessary
20:47:13  <peter1138> basically the only way to have slow acceleration is to have very underpowered trains
20:47:15  <andythenorth> but currently I have to piss around with quite fine adjustments of HP
20:47:46  <andythenorth> fast trains that have enough HP to achieve max speed are quite OP for all other cases
20:47:49  <Eddi|zuHause> other than braking force, i don't see what you can really change there
20:48:01  <andythenorth> I read the code, and I didn't see an obvious thing to try
20:48:08  <Eddi|zuHause> or ridiculously high running costs
20:48:16  <andythenorth> but there's probably a rate of acceleraion that could have a factor applied
20:49:07  <Eddi|zuHause> "real" trains are also probably scheduled about 80% of their max speed
20:49:12  <andythenorth> yes
20:49:25  <andythenorth> acceleration out of stops is a key issue IRL
20:49:29  <andythenorth> for pathing and performance
20:49:34  <andythenorth> not sure that matters in game
20:50:00  <Eddi|zuHause> you don't have enough controls to handle that properly
20:50:17  <andythenorth> but in Horse, unless you load the weight up enough to put the train on its knees, you are usually better off choosing the expensive pax engine
20:50:29  <peter1138> Add the controls.
20:50:38  <andythenorth> it will beat the equivalent sized freight engine over the same tile route
20:50:48  <andythenorth> it will cost more, but there's less network contention
20:50:54  <andythenorth> and network contention >>>> money
20:51:04  <peter1138> Hmm, should I make this patch a setting? :p
20:51:16  <andythenorth> accelerating out of signal stops is quite a big deal in the kind of crap ottd networks I build
20:51:21  * andythenorth is not coop style
20:51:22  <Eddi|zuHause> settings are evil
20:51:39  <peter1138> Yes but gameplay changes are ... hmm ...
20:51:47  <andythenorth> JUST DO IT!
20:51:52  <andythenorth> PeterPP
20:51:58  <andythenorth> what changed? :P
20:52:05  <peter1138> I considered that but it's too much work.
20:52:29  <peter1138> I just resigned from being the local CTC ride coordinator because I'm too lazy to do it once a month.
20:52:48  <peter1138> andythenorth, this is my patch that makes ships turn slowly instead of instantly.
20:53:30  <peter1138> It's quite an invasive patch for something that isn't seen very often :/
20:53:41  <peter1138> Maybe we need tugs :p
20:54:56  <peter1138> https://github.com/PeterN/OpenTTD/commits/ship-tweaks-redux
20:55:05  <peter1138> ^ It's that last change.
20:56:00  <andythenorth> I hate it
20:56:07  <andythenorth> do it anyway? o_O
20:56:12  <andythenorth> forums always blame me
20:56:20  <andythenorth> or someone innocent, never you
20:56:28  <peter1138> You hate it? Did you... what?
20:56:48  <andythenorth> of course I didn't
20:57:19  <andythenorth> hmm
20:57:23  <andythenorth> do I have you upstream?
20:57:24  <andythenorth> yes
20:58:17  <andythenorth> hmm where is acceleration stuff, ground_vehicle_cmd maybe?
21:00:29  <peter1138> Fitbit says I can eat another 1000 kcal, despite have a pizza and garlic bread for dinner. Madness. Is cheese a good idea?
21:01:19  <andythenorth> peter1138: how do I test the reversing?
21:01:59  <peter1138> Basically when ship heads into a dock head on, when it leaves it will turn instead of just flipping around.
21:02:12  <andythenorth> and if I reverse it en-route (change order)?
21:02:19  <peter1138> Now I think about it, this is massively over engineered for something that is barely visible :s
21:02:24  <peter1138> Yeah that should too.
21:02:41  <andythenorth> no actually I love it
21:02:50  <peter1138> And 90 degree turns will have an intermediate step.
21:02:51  <andythenorth> it's a lot more like real ships
21:02:56  <andythenorth> it's a bit ponderous
21:03:07  <peter1138> It makes ships worse, just what we need :D
21:03:10  <andythenorth> I thought it might be annoying in a game, but it's a small-big-improvement
21:03:32  <andythenorth> looks like they're maneouvering
21:04:01  <andythenorth> yeah that 180 deg dock flip :P
21:04:03  <andythenorth> I won't miss that
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21:05:06  <andythenorth> hmm if we have air drag
21:05:08  <andythenorth> and curve speed
21:05:19  <andythenorth> we can probably accomodate a proxy for gearing / etc
21:05:26  <andythenorth> dunno what the technical term would be
21:05:35  <andythenorth> is it some kind of torque co-efficient?
21:06:00  <andythenorth> it applies during acceleration, rather than cruise
21:08:03  <peter1138> just have a callback, called every tick, to have the vehicle calculate its own acceleration :p
21:08:43  <andythenorth> lovely
21:08:44  <peter1138> Biscuits & cheese?
21:08:55  <andythenorth> I threw out more mouldy cheese
21:08:57  <andythenorth> it was sad
21:08:58  <peter1138> I got a big wedge of stilton now.
21:09:14  <AKTheKnight> Favourite cheese?
21:09:16  <andythenorth> cheese boats!
21:09:30  <andythenorth> I tried cheese in FIRS
21:09:36  <andythenorth> didn't quite work, but eh
21:09:40  <peter1138> AKTheKnight, all of it.
21:10:10  <AKTheKnight> Haha if you had to pick one?
21:10:34  <peter1138> Impossible :/
21:10:53  <andythenorth> so newgrf acceleration? :P http://evilgeniustech.com/idiotsGuideToRailroadPhysics/HorsepowerAndTractiveEffort/
21:11:24  <peter1138> Oh yeah I got a big wedge of mature Gouda too.
21:11:42  <andythenorth> newgrf can then do all the things like phase transition :P
21:11:47  <AKTheKnight> Oooh, I love Gouda
21:11:52  <andythenorth> efficient use of regulator / controller :P
21:11:54  <andythenorth> coasting
21:11:55  <AKTheKnight> Mont d'Or has gotta be my all time favourite though
21:12:38  <peter1138> Baked Mont d'Or is good
21:12:56  <peter1138> Bloody hell, cheese is so good.
21:13:03  <peter1138> Why does it have to have so much unhealthy fat :(
21:13:34  <andythenorth> :P
21:13:47  <peter1138> Mind you kinda like Philidelphia too, but that's pretty bad cos it's not really cheese.
21:14:00  <AKTheKnight> Bagels, cream cheese, smoked salmon
21:14:03  <AKTheKnight> Perfect breakfast
21:14:18  <peter1138> Carbs ;(
21:14:35  <AKTheKnight> You trying to go low carbs?
21:14:49  <AKTheKnight> I really should care about what I eat, but for now I'm alright
21:15:39  <peter1138> Not currently, but I cut back on carbs a bit for a few months last year and felt a lot better. Lost a shed load of weight too, probably not a coincidence.
21:16:21  <peter1138> I want to cut back a bit now as I had fuck loads over christmas and they're kinda self-fulfilling. You want more while you're having them.
21:16:30  <AKTheKnight> That makes sense. I'm cutting back on takeaways/unhealthy and trying to lower my portion sizes a bit too
21:17:17  <peter1138> Carbs leads to be snacking, which results in overeating.
21:17:22  <peter1138> s/be/me.
21:18:43  <AKTheKnight> Yeah I've cut back on snacking a bit, keeping myself busy at work helps with that
21:18:47  <peter1138> Although there's a balance, I became a bit too underweight which is also not great.
21:19:09  <peter1138> As a previously fat person who thought "bah, how can you be underweight, just eat" ... well, it's not that simple :)
21:19:46  <AKTheKnight> Yeah I'm trying to avoid putting on anymore weight and being the fat person
21:22:00  <peter1138> 3 years of solid cycling helped too!
21:23:20  <AKTheKnight> I need to get into doing more exercise. Think I'll try and do some running and cycling again once it warms up
21:24:12  <nielsm> that's a funky waveform https://0x0.st/shN3.png
21:25:24  <glx> saturation ?
21:26:01  <peter1138> Hmm, lots of HF noise?
21:26:13  <peter1138> or is that LFO gone mad?
21:26:23  <peter1138> Ah, just saw the time scale.
21:26:26  <peter1138> It's an LFO gone mad.
21:26:56  <nielsm> yes looks like around 0.25 hz
21:27:13  <peter1138> In an analogue system that DC offset would be lost due to output capacitors filtering it.
21:27:24  <peter1138> (And indeed, it will be)
21:27:54  <nielsm> but anyway it's sounding a bit more like it: https://0x0.st/shNg.ogg
21:27:59  <nielsm> mostly the percussion is bugged
21:28:17  <nielsm> and then something about the delays
21:29:21  <nielsm> though this is with the dual channel/dual track code disabled, since that causes a bunch of issues right now
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21:30:46  <peter1138> andythenorth, shall I PR it?
21:33:10  <peter1138> Zoolook is energetic. Maybe not the best music to be listening to before bed.
21:35:34  <peter1138> Mmm, that gouda has a lovely flavour.
21:36:14  <andythenorth> peter1138: PR it!
21:36:41  <Eddi|zuHause> bed?
21:37:17  <peter1138> Bed soon, rather than, say, 3am like last night.
21:37:51  <Eddi|zuHause> that never worked when i tried
21:37:51  <andythenorth> PR and run
21:38:16  <andythenorth> oh look in my diary
21:38:16  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, I'll get the kindle out for a change, instead of playing on the phone.
21:38:28  <andythenorth> 'risk register review'
21:38:39  <andythenorth> my glamorous life
21:38:55  <andythenorth> peter1138: I am reading Biggles :P
21:38:58  <andythenorth> for random reasons
21:43:21  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN opened pull request #7065: Change: Make ships stop and change direction slowly instead of instantly turning. https://git.io/fhWk0
21:44:34  <Eddi|zuHause> that immediately pops a bunch of thoughts in my mind
21:44:52  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on pull request #7065: Change: Make ships stop and change direction slowly instead of instantly turning. https://git.io/fhWkK
21:45:34  <Eddi|zuHause> like, river ships making 45° turns more quickly and stuff
21:45:51  <andythenorth> o_O
21:45:56  <LordAro> andythenorth: giv video
21:46:02  <andythenorth> oof
21:46:15  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, turn speed could be a property, currently it's fixed.
21:46:22  <andythenorth> acceleration :P
21:46:25  <andythenorth> draft
21:46:30  <andythenorth> air draft? o_O
21:46:52  <peter1138> (And not entirely predictable, as it uses the vehicle tick counter, so may not be starting from zero)
21:46:59  <peter1138> Draft beer?
21:47:00  <andythenorth> air draft is quite important for ships https://maritimecyprus.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/air-draft.jpg
21:47:07  <Eddi|zuHause> also unrelated: rivers need a flowing speed, so you can go faster downstream than upstream
21:47:22  <peter1138> They also need a direction, then.
21:47:44  <Eddi|zuHause> i meant a speed vector
21:47:54  <dwfreed> you mean a velocity
21:48:00  <Eddi|zuHause> same thing
21:48:10  <dwfreed> :P
21:48:24  <dwfreed> use the right physics term so we understand what you mean
21:49:06  <Eddi|zuHause> when you stop trying to make two words that mean the same thing into meaning different nuances
21:49:19  <Eddi|zuHause> that are entirely arbitrary
21:49:45  <dwfreed> physics has had these definitions for many, many years
21:50:04  <andythenorth> a velocity isn't a speed vector? :o
21:50:33  <dwfreed> I mean, it is, but a "speed vector" is a confusing way of saying it, when "velocity" already exists
21:51:31  <andythenorth> do rivers need a direction?
21:51:36  <andythenorth> can we give them some track bits
21:51:40  <andythenorth> ?
21:51:51  <Eddi|zuHause> dwfreed: how come "velocity vector" is then a word i find in my dictionary?
21:51:52  <andythenorth> oh we can do the direction as a byte?
21:52:18  <andythenorth> there are 8 directions?
21:52:35  <Eddi|zuHause> "velocity" in no way implies being vectorized any more than "speed" does...
21:52:55  <andythenorth> I was taught differently in physics eddi :o
21:53:00  <dwfreed> Eddi|zuHause: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velocity
21:53:09  <dwfreed> "Velocity is a physical vector quantity"
21:53:10  <Eddi|zuHause> just the english language has this habit of making up two words for the same thing
21:53:19  <Eddi|zuHause> like Beef and Cow
21:53:27  <planetmaker> o/
21:53:37  <Samu> im changing opf to be more intelligent at being bad
21:53:39  <Eddi|zuHause> and then pretending they don't mean the same thing
21:53:42  <andythenorth> except in a physics exam, I would usually specific 'velocity, as a vector'
21:53:48  <andythenorth> in plain speech
21:53:59  <andythenorth> because velocity and speed are used interchangeably in plain speecvh
21:54:11  <andythenorth> typing fail
21:54:50  <andythenorth> so ship has upstream and downstream speeds?
21:54:51  <AKTheKnight> Beef vs cow was because of the normans
21:54:56  <AKTheKnight> Beef was what you ate
21:55:00  <AKTheKnight> Cow was the live animal
21:55:23  <peter1138> And that ... was a nice soft cheese.
21:55:25  <andythenorth> cow is female
21:55:32  <andythenorth> beef is often steer
21:55:36  <andythenorth> or bullock
21:55:54  <Samu> opf is using track to increase it's depth
21:55:55  <peter1138> https://www.cawscenarth.co.uk/product-page/golden-cenarth
21:55:55  <dwfreed> often times farmers refer to their cows as "beef" when that's what they intend to turn them into
21:55:58  <peter1138> ^ One of them :D
21:56:02  <Samu> now i'm changing it to trackdir instead
21:56:10  <peter1138> Although I only had a small piece obviously, not the whole cheese.
21:56:19  <AKTheKnight> "small piece"
21:56:24  <AKTheKnight> Sounds like you ate the whole thing to me
21:56:39  <Eddi|zuHause> dwfreed: in original french, "boef" means both the animal and the meat
21:56:43  <Samu> should go at greater depths now on horz/vert tracks
21:57:01  <Samu> if that results at it being smarter, is what's i'm gonna discover now
21:57:31  <Eddi|zuHause> in german it's slightly more complicated, because both the term "Kuh" and "Rind" exist
21:57:46  <peter1138> AKTheKnight, about 30 grams, so not a lot.
21:58:10  <AKTheKnight> Thats not bad peter1138, I'm snacking on a bit of this now: https://www.nealsyarddairy.co.uk/products/keens-cheddar
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21:59:11  <peter1138> Ooh decent looking cheddar.
21:59:39  <peter1138> Gotta admit I tend to just go with the supermarket stuff for cheddar but maybe I should change.
21:59:58  <peter1138> Nothing really special about the premium brands in supermarkets.
22:00:00  <Eddi|zuHause> dwfreed: anyway, that wikipage is in no way a convincing argument that "speed" always means scalar and "velocity" always means vector...
22:00:13  <AKTheKnight> Well tbh I took this from my parents after Christmas. I've got the Waitrose version not the neals yard one
22:00:40  <peter1138> Mine is from Tesco :p
22:01:03  <AKTheKnight> Haha I usually get an asda shop, they're not known for their premium cheese :P
22:02:16  <peter1138> Hmm, the other cheeses from that link look nice too.
22:02:18  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: in plain English, they're used interchangeably
22:02:39  <andythenorth> but if you did an A-level Physics exam paper, you would be expected to treat one as scalar, and one as vector
22:02:45  <AKTheKnight> Yeah I think their only shop is next to borough market, they do some fancy cheese
22:02:46  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: and we're not using plain english here?
22:02:48  <andythenorth> it's contextual
22:03:06  <andythenorth> it's on a par with the stupid BODMAS rules or whatever they're called
22:03:11  <andythenorth> for order of operations
22:03:25  <andythenorth> people who do it 'correctly' are adamant there is only one way
22:03:31  <Eddi|zuHause> in a scientific paper/exam i can make an arrow above the v symbol to make it clear i'm talking about the vector
22:03:33  <andythenorth> and then there's everyone else
22:03:45  <andythenorth> similar to the order of ops rules
22:03:53  <andythenorth> anyone doing engineering would put in the brackets
22:04:12  <andythenorth> and stop relying on people remembering dumbass acronyms
22:04:28  <Eddi|zuHause> people who think there is only one order of operator precedences haven't switched between programming languages enough
22:04:32  <peter1138> Right, night night.
22:04:37  <andythenorth> cheese grommit!
22:04:39  <AKTheKnight> night
22:04:41  <peter1138> MORE CHEESE
22:04:48  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't understand cheese
22:04:59  <peter1138> Why do my passions have to be unhealthy?
22:05:00  <milek7> v⃗
22:05:07  <andythenorth> peter1138: don't expand that further pls :P
22:05:14  <dwfreed> andythenorth: PEMDAS
22:05:35  <andythenorth> I was made to feel stupid once for putting the brackets in
22:05:39  * andythenorth is still bitter
22:05:43  <peter1138> LEOBODNAR
22:05:47  <dwfreed> "Please Excuse My Dear Aunt Sally"
22:05:55  <andythenorth> I was told it was redundant, and wasted space
22:06:16  <Eddi|zuHause> mnemonics for stupid rules are even worse than the stupid rules themselves
22:06:29  <andythenorth> except for SOHCAHTOA
22:06:32  <andythenorth> the best
22:06:53  <andythenorth> trig is the best maths
22:07:19  <Eddi|zuHause> you haven't done functional analysis then :p
22:08:36  <Eddi|zuHause> "let's take all these concept about vectors and dimensions, throw it all out, and redefine it in counterintuitive ways to make it work for infinitely many dimensions"
22:09:02  <andythenorth> no I haven't
22:09:33  <andythenorth> I sat next to someone who did :P
22:09:43  <Eddi|zuHause> "what do you mean these spheres have all right angles on every surface point?"
22:09:58  <andythenorth> n-dimensional vectors in non-euclidean geometries
22:10:12  <Eddi|zuHause> no no
22:10:22  <Eddi|zuHause> n-dimensional is not infinite-dimensional :p
22:10:28  <Eddi|zuHause> you can make this even worse :p
22:10:30  <andythenorth> yes I see now
22:10:40  <andythenorth> that raises the game
22:10:53  <andythenorth> finitely, but also infinitely
22:11:02  <andythenorth> it's a single step from finite to infinite
22:11:13  <Eddi|zuHause> not to mention that there are different levels of infinite
22:11:31  <andythenorth> that can only be discussed in Thursdays
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22:11:46  <andythenorth> child #1 watches videos about it
22:12:14  <andythenorth> why did I do Hilbert spaces in philosophy?
22:12:19  * andythenorth can't remember
22:12:38  <Eddi|zuHause> maths is the highest form of philosophy
22:13:32  <andythenorth> something about complex numbers and hilbert spaces
22:13:39  * andythenorth didn't really pay attention at the time
22:14:01  <Eddi|zuHause> you can also extend hilbert spaces to infinite dimensions
22:14:39  <andythenorth> something to do with decomposing the imaginary part
22:15:11  <andythenorth> my maths isn't as strong as it should be :P
22:15:47  <Eddi|zuHause> one of the "fun" bits about functional analysis: in "regular" maths you can make sums over infinitely many parts, as long as the "infinite" thing is countable. but in functional analysis you can generalize that even further, to sum over an uncountable infinite set, as long as only countably-many elements are non-zero
22:16:46  *** Progman has quit IRC
22:17:34  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: complex numbers are a very easy special case of a hilbert space
22:20:36  <andythenorth> right bedtime
22:20:38  <andythenorth> bye
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22:41:19  <Samu> i think i made opf too smart now lol
22:41:54  <Samu> it's fun to test things on it
22:43:19  <Samu> im impressed
22:43:59  * LordAro tempted to make a PR removing OPF
22:44:00  <LordAro> :p
22:44:40  <Samu> no, i mean this tweak seems to have good results
22:44:50  <Samu> let me try the 5k ship map
22:47:25  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro updated pull request #7057: Fix: A few minor compile warnings under MinGW https://git.io/fhn6E
22:47:25  <Samu> i changed Track into Trackdir and adjusted accordingly, now it can increase it's search depth on horizontal and vertical, not just on diagonals
22:48:11  <Samu> the results are surprising me
22:48:26  <Samu> didn't expect anything of it, but it almost looks smart
22:49:26  <Samu> the way is was doing the searchs before were more fitting of a road vehicle
22:49:58  <LordAro> peter1138: #7065 needs rebasing to get CI results, btw
22:54:39  <Samu> uh oh, bad news, this "tweak" made it much more cpu insensive
22:55:02  <Samu> I used to get 90 ms avg, now it's 220 ms avg
22:56:12  <Samu> it goes through many asserts, i guess if i skip the asserts, it may be faster?
22:58:06  <dwfreed> asserts are generally removed in optimized builds
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23:03:53  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] J0anJosep commented on pull request #7065: Change: Make ships stop and change direction slowly instead of instantly turning. https://git.io/fhW3c
23:03:56  <Samu> testing without asserts, keks
23:05:02  <Samu> many of the asserts were repeating in similar functions
23:06:05  <Samu> looks like it wasn't the asserts
23:06:13  <Samu> it's still slow, oh well, I tried
23:07:44  <Samu> I wonder why
23:07:57  <Samu> because it can search deeper?
23:08:47  <dwfreed> this is where profiling comes in handy
23:10:00  <Samu> remaining depth was usually quickly decreased from 4 to 2 when heading into coasts
23:11:24  <Samu> it's not quickly decreased now, I suspect I "doubled" its depth, by letting it search deeper on more directions
23:11:35  <Samu> ok let's try a depth of 2 then, brb
23:14:12  *** nielsm has quit IRC
23:14:50  <Samu> holy smokes, what a huge difference
23:15:01  <Samu> from 220 ms avg to 4 ms avg
23:15:15  <Samu> looks like i still dont understand depth
23:17:20  <Samu> many lost ships now, gonna try 3
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23:21:51  <Samu> depth 3 also with lost ships
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23:34:34  <Samu> nevermind, it's worse than i though
23:34:38  <Samu> clearly i dont get depth
23:41:02  <Samu> IsTileFlat is somewhat expensive for no apparent reason
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