Log for #openttd on 11th May 2019:
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05:35:28  <andythenorth> moin
06:06:50  <Artea> hello
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06:15:12  <peter1138> Morning. Is it lunch? Twelveses? Elevenses?
06:15:16  <peter1138> Or just breakfast.
06:22:47  <andythenorth> coffee
06:22:54  <andythenorth> NRT rail crossings? o_O
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07:03:53  <andythenorth> volume factor for cargos? o_O
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07:37:10  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] gprints opened issue #7585: Inverted scrolling unavailable
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07:47:58  <LordAro> maybe there should've been some sort of setting conversion for that
07:50:06  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] kiwitreekor commented on issue #7585: Inverted scrolling unavailable
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08:07:23  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] gprints closed issue #7585: Inverted scrolling unavailable
08:07:24  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] gprints commented on issue #7585: Inverted scrolling unavailable
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08:27:34  <Wolf01> o/
08:30:56  <andythenorth> hi
08:33:43  <Artea> hi
08:43:58  * andythenorth wonders if nml can add days to a date
08:44:04  <andythenorth> might be an expression for that
08:45:18  <LordAro> andythenorth: maybe you should add one, if not :p
08:45:50  <andythenorth> looks like vehicle prop 2A is days
08:46:10  * andythenorth has all vehicles introduced on same day of year currently
08:46:13  <andythenorth> needs fixed
09:11:00  <Eddi|zuHause> NML can certainly do that
09:11:59  <andythenorth> seems to work
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10:11:09  <Wolf01> Hmmm, with fritz I can't even contact destiny 2 servers... at least with the other modem I could login and get dropped after 3 minutes
10:12:01  <Eddi|zuHause> it wants to protect you from insanity
10:12:30  <Eddi|zuHause> is it a true fritzbox or one of those branded/castrated ones?
10:12:37  <Wolf01> I waited 5 months to play destiny 2 again...
10:12:43  <Wolf01> A true one
10:12:52  <Wolf01> 7590
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10:14:38  <Wolf01> I suspect destiny 2 servers are really picky, I don't have any problem wit any other service
10:14:44  <Wolf01> *with
10:15:03  <Eddi|zuHause> do they let you choose different gateways?
10:16:24  <Wolf01> I can change everything, but I don't know what my isp supports
10:16:42  <Eddi|zuHause> i mean the destiny 2 login page
10:17:30  <Wolf01> I could try with US or Asia servers
10:17:52  <Wolf01> I can't change any option from the game
10:18:05  <Wolf01> I'm not even reaching the menu
10:19:23  <Wolf01> Opened the 2 required ports, even enabled upnp for my pc, nothing changed
10:21:52  <Eddi|zuHause> there's a guy who reported he could switch the network to his cell phone, connect, and then switch back to his regular network to play on
10:22:34  <Eddi|zuHause> otherwise, i couldn't find any details how to select specific gateways
10:23:58  <Wolf01> The only thing I know is that my isp uses port 3074 for remote router management, and that's one of the 2 required ports for destiny
10:24:24  <Wolf01> But I had that problem only with the isp's modem, not with other ones
10:29:16  <Wolf01> Did a full scan and repair of game files, seem to have worked
10:29:43  <Wolf01> At least it passed the login
10:30:16  <Eddi|zuHause> you forgot to defrag your hard disk
10:30:54  <Wolf01> Probably
10:32:50  <Wolf01> Ok, the STUN is even open now, it was type 2 before
10:43:14  <peter1138> Morning
10:43:46  <peter1138> LordAro, main issue is it's hidden as an advanced setting.
10:45:27  * peter1138 pats his trusty Mikrotik routers.
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11:08:40  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc opened pull request #7586: Fix #7463: Promote scroll mode setting to basic category.
11:09:17  <Eddi|zuHause> .. what a coincidence :p
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11:22:09  <Wolf01> So, Germany started to build e-highways
11:23:57  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, but it would probably need some significant fraction of highways converted to actually take off
11:24:56  <Eddi|zuHause> ... and not some other country coming along building a slightly incompatible system
11:27:23  <Wolf01> We have the same rail system everywhere in EU [citation needed], wouldn't we be able to come up with the same e-highway infrastructure?
11:28:09  <Eddi|zuHause> ... except we don't
11:28:49  <Eddi|zuHause> we have incompatible rail gauges (spain, russia), incompatible loading gauges (britain), in compatible electrification systems (everywhere), ...
11:29:10  <Eddi|zuHause> and we were close to having incompatible wagon coupling systems a bunch of times
11:29:22  <Eddi|zuHause> and let's not talk about signalling systems
11:29:51  <Eddi|zuHause> where even ETCS is still incompatible with ETCS everywhere
11:30:22  <Wolf01> I was sarcastic, we don't even speak the same language in the same State
11:31:00  <Eddi|zuHause> at least we solved the incompatible currency problem... oh wait
11:47:42  <peter1138> Managed to lose my keys this morning :(
11:48:59  <peter1138> Is it lunch time yet?
11:49:40  <Wolf01> Yes
11:56:12  <peter1138> \o/
11:56:38  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN approved pull request #7586: Fix #7463: Promote scroll mode setting to basic category.
12:05:55  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc merged pull request #7586: Fix #7463: Promote scroll mode setting to basic category.
12:20:46  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh updated pull request #7398: Fix #7371: Avoid dependency on foundations of town tile during saveload
12:50:16  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN approved pull request #7398: Fix #7371: Avoid dependency on foundations of town tile during saveload
12:53:10  <peter1138> Jesus Christ these Nazis are agressive.
12:53:19  <peter1138> Hell Knights are easier to kill.
12:53:26  <peter1138> Well, avoid.
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12:58:04  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh merged pull request #7398: Fix #7371: Avoid dependency on foundations of town tile during saveload
12:58:10  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh closed issue #7371: Kdtree is built too early in savegame loading process
13:08:36  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh updated pull request #7516: Memory measurement and limits for Squirrel
13:12:10  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #7576: Crash When bombing level crossing
13:13:30  <peter1138> Plasma rifle seems to be the way forward.
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13:17:59  <peter1138> Mmm, Turkish delight.
13:18:49  <peter1138> I probably ought to mow the lawn while it's not raining.
13:20:32  <Eddi|zuHause> how is it not raining?
13:20:42  <peter1138> Well...
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13:31:06  <Wolf01> Quak
13:31:12  <Eddi|zuHause> burp
13:32:45  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN approved pull request #7516: Memory measurement and limits for Squirrel
13:34:36  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh merged pull request #7516: Memory measurement and limits for Squirrel
13:35:21  <frosch123> moo
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13:38:48  <nielsm> and that was a savegame upgrade PR so every other of those needs rebasing again
13:39:49  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7575: Feature: Add industry production graph
13:42:10  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on pull request #7575: Feature: Add industry production graph
13:44:12  <nielsm> I usually switch volume measurements to m^3 and avoid the kilolitres measurement :P
13:45:38  <peter1138> I'm sure you do but not every done.
13:45:40  <peter1138> ... does
13:47:00  <peter1138> There's also imperial vs metric tons.
13:47:20  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh updated pull request #7353: Feature: Measure vehicle capacity utilisation efficiency
13:49:31  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on pull request #7575: Feature: Add industry production graph
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14:11:55  <peter1138> That's the lawn done. Pretty quick at the moment, it's all shortish already.
14:17:58  * peter1138 succumbs to a nice beer.
14:19:02  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on pull request #7522: Add soundfont path for Flatpak
14:44:43  <spnda> Wohoo new monitor
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14:49:10  <snail_UES_> hi guys, Andy posted an interesting question on my thread…
14:49:46  <snail_UES_> if I want to modify a wagon’s capacity, there are two ways to do it: (1) through the “Capacity” callback, or (2) through the “properties” callback, using the “capacity” property
14:49:54  <snail_UES_> are there any differences between the two methods?
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14:53:12  <peter1138> Yes, capacity property is more efficient.
14:53:37  <peter1138> You should only use the callback if you want to make the capacity change based on other things.
14:58:47  <snail_UES_> ok, thanks
14:59:14  <snail_UES_> I do make capacity change based on a few things… but I’m still using capacity property to do that
14:59:31  <snail_UES_> I feel it simplifies my code a lot (especially because I also have to change loading amount)
14:59:55  <peter1138> Eh? If you're using the capacity property, it can't change.
15:00:52  <peter1138> I'll rephrase that. If you're not using the capacity/properties callback, it can't change.
15:01:12  <peter1138> I misread your question :(
15:01:25  <peter1138> There's a capacity property that should be used for fix capacity.
15:01:37  <peter1138> The callbacks should only be used if capacity should change.
15:05:35  <Samu> round 18 finished, now without inflation
15:05:47  <Samu> and now, redoing round 5
15:05:54  <Samu> without inflation
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15:06:35  <Eddi|zuHause> there's two callbacks
15:06:47  <peter1138> Hmm. There's a refit capacity callback.
15:06:52  <peter1138> And the CB36 callback.
15:06:59  <Eddi|zuHause> one is subject to the default capacity multiplier for goods/mail etc.
15:07:01  <Eddi|zuHause> the other is not
15:07:07  <Eddi|zuHause> i forgot which one is which
15:08:25  <peter1138> I don't see two. Only refit and CB36.
15:08:39  <Eddi|zuHause> that's two
15:10:43  <Eddi|zuHause> so CB15 is not subject to the multiplier, CB36 is
15:14:10  <snail_UES_> petern1138: I’m using CB36
15:14:42  <Eddi|zuHause> snail_UES_: with CB36, capacity will double if you refit to goods
15:14:48  <snail_UES_> ah I see. When doing this, I never refit passengers or mail. Only other goods
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15:14:58  <snail_UES_> oh, an not goods either
15:15:04  <snail_UES_> only other types of cargo
15:15:09  <snail_UES_> so it will be the same?
15:15:20  <Eddi|zuHause> i think so
15:15:40  <snail_UES_> that’s why, in the game, the two methods had the same final effects
15:21:39  <frosch123> the only difference between cb36 and cb15 are the capacity multipliers
15:21:52  <frosch123> cb36 is meant for unknown/general cargos. cb15 is meant for control freaks
15:22:43  <Eddi|zuHause> if snail is not a control freak, then i don't know who is :p
15:22:50  <frosch123> <- more details there
15:23:16  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: i am pretty sure cb36 capacity was added by someone not being aware of cb15
15:23:33  <Eddi|zuHause> i like the clarifying use of graphs on that page
15:23:54  <frosch123> <- 10 year old summary, how crappy cb36 and 15 were in old ttdp and ottd
15:23:57  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i'm not convinced that is the case
15:26:50  <Eddi|zuHause> (note: i was being ironic. that page is horrible documentation)
15:27:28  <peter1138> Was it me or Lakie?
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15:27:59  <snail_UES_> CB36 capacity is useful because it can be set in parallel as loading amount… usually the two get changed together to be consistent
15:28:21  <snail_UES_> otherwise I’d have to change capacities through CB15, and then use CB36 anyway to change loading amount
15:28:44  <peter1138> Yeah, prefer CB36, I think.
15:28:45  <snail_UES_> CB36 allows to pick two birds with a stone
15:29:20  <peter1138> Not really, it's still two separate calls within the game.
15:29:44  <snail_UES_> ah… well, at least code-wise, they’re in the same statement
15:29:49  <peter1138> But efficiency-wise it is better as you are only checking for CB36 instead of both CB15 and CB36.
15:30:06  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] kiwitreekor updated pull request #7575: Feature: Add industry production graph
15:30:43  <frosch123> peter1138: when cb15 succeeds, cb36 is not called. so no difference in efficiency
15:31:31  <snail_UES_> cb36 would still be called for loading amount, though
15:31:40  <peter1138> Except for every time the game looks up graphics it'll go through the test for callbacks.
15:31:41  <frosch123> (both are called in depot only, so efficiency is super-no-pointo)
15:31:44  <Eddi|zuHause> the amount of callbacks you check in the callback switch does not affect efficiency...
15:32:20  <snail_UES_> well it’s more efficient code-wise, so it’s more than enough for me :p
15:32:36  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] kiwitreekor commented on pull request #7575: Feature: Add industry production graph
15:33:36  <Eddi|zuHause> we should add a JIT compiler so it can optimize switches during execution :)
15:34:13  <frosch123> there actually already is
15:34:47  <frosch123> switch cases are reordered and merged to enable binary search for large switches
15:35:32  <frosch123> which may imply that few large switches are better than many small switches
15:36:29  <Eddi|zuHause> but a true JIT compiler might optimize over several switches?
15:37:14  <Eddi|zuHause> like, avoid redundant calculations, and stuff
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16:38:59  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] kiwitreekor updated pull request #7575: Feature: Add industry production graph
16:43:00  <andythenorth> well
16:43:55  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] kiwitreekor commented on pull request #7575: Feature: Add industry production graph
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16:46:39  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] kiwitreekor updated pull request #7575: Feature: Add industry production graph
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18:47:52  <andythenorth> vehicle variants? :)
18:47:54  <andythenorth> or DOOM
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19:01:37  <frosch123> wasn't that some concept art by V?
19:01:44  <frosch123> or was it yours?
19:07:17  <V453000> it was my concept train set, the first one after nuts
19:07:29  <V453000> obscenely oversized machinery
19:07:39  <V453000> iz ded
19:08:01  <frosch123> izded is 5 letters, not suitable for grfid
19:08:18  <frosch123> luckily "grfid" is 5 letters as well
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19:17:46  <V453000> BTW from quick tests by 1. removing the fancy drawing logic from wagons (it only applied in super extreme and not necesary case), 2. making a single graphics switcher per engine, therefore removing all the "+ count_veh_id" and removing some count_veh_ids and other switches, I'm pretty much back to the performance that earlier NUTS was getting
19:18:12  <V453000> I guess it could still be better if I did a big rewrite and functionality changes, but for now that's a nice result :)
19:18:30  <V453000> I need to do more code splitting, at the moment I finished 1 engine, but for testing that's representative already
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19:18:40  <V453000> a single graphics switch for 1 vehicle is 10k lines though :D
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19:20:29  <frosch123> V453000: can you get away with using "position_in_consist"?
19:20:58  <V453000> instead of the count_veh_id?
19:20:58  <V453000> no
19:20:59  <frosch123> basically, variables with parameter like "count_veh_id(PARAMETER)" are way more expensive than those without
19:21:18  <V453000> yeah that's what I assumed, and now I have seen the effect of that myself :)
19:21:23  <V453000> I can't for now
19:21:44  <V453000> but I might do a bigger NUTS rewrite somewhat soon with which I could remove them
19:23:09  <andythenorth> what's the compile time though?
19:23:27  <V453000> don't care, acceptable
19:24:04  <V453000> it's actually decent as the graphics are cached
19:24:14  <V453000> it'll get worse, I guess I'll need to add significant amount of lines
19:24:25  <frosch123> andythenorth: 3 seconds probably
19:25:59  <V453000> counted about 30
19:25:59  <V453000> s
19:26:06  <V453000> I can somehow measure it right?
19:26:38  <andythenorth> windows?
19:26:40  <andythenorth> dunno
19:26:47  <V453000> yeah there was some nmlc verbose command
19:26:48  <andythenorth> 30s that's very quick
19:26:56  <frosch123> nmlc --verbosity=4 or something
19:26:58  <andythenorth> yeah verbose=4 or something
19:26:59  <andythenorth> that
19:27:35  <V453000> there's also something for not showing the errors right?
19:27:40  <V453000> white pixels and unreferenced blocks
19:28:10  <frosch123> --quiet
19:28:49  <frosch123> you can also "tag" sprites which are supposed to contain white and animated colors
19:29:04  <V453000> ooh
19:29:18  <V453000> well I'm not sure right now which ones are actually truly correct :)
19:29:30  <frosch123> <- WHITE and ANIM
19:30:03  <V453000> hm
19:30:09  <V453000> looks like a pain to do at this point :D
19:30:19  <V453000> hm i guess the verbosity is overridden by --quiet
19:30:41  <V453000> parsing 6.4s
19:30:45  <frosch123> well, i guess "| grep -vi warning" won't work :p
19:30:56  <V453000> preprocessing 16.2
19:30:59  <V453000> generating actions 3.5
19:31:15  <V453000> collecting real sprites 0.7
19:31:35  <V453000> writing output 3.8
19:31:40  <glx> frosch123: in mingw it should ;)
19:31:49  <V453000> so yeah about 30s total
19:34:04  * andythenorth very jealous
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19:37:52  <V453000> isn't your compile like 1.4s andy?
19:37:54  <andythenorth> maybe it's time to refactor Horse
19:37:59  <andythenorth> no, it's like 1m10s
19:38:06  <V453000> also I'm about to add a bunch of code so you just wait :D
19:38:17  <andythenorth> I'm considering removing a lot
19:38:46  <andythenorth> frosch123 so providing lots of vehicles sprites for many cargos bloats the spritecache?
19:38:48  <andythenorth> o_O
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19:40:49  <peter1138> 20:20 < frosch123> basically, variables with parameter like "count_veh_id(PARAMETER)" are way more expensive than those without
19:40:59  <peter1138> Hmm, so, persistent storage for vehicles?
19:41:16  <peter1138> Calculate once in the depot, use the result for drawing
19:44:03  <andythenorth> depot CB?
19:44:53  <frosch123> i think those variables are mostly used for the visuals
19:45:21  <frosch123> so i think changing ottd to only resolve visible sprites is a better solution
19:45:51  <peter1138> I probably had a patch for that...
19:46:17  <peter1138> But, zoomed out...?
19:46:34  <frosch123> currently it resolves the sprites when vehicles move
19:46:39  <peter1138> Yes, I know.
19:46:43  <frosch123> instead it should only invalidte them
19:47:08  <frosch123> some issue was, that ottd stored the top-left corner of the sprite in the vehicle-position hash
19:47:27  <frosch123> i can't remember whether i changed that 2 years ago, or whether it was unfinished
19:47:39  <peter1138> How about detecting if tick_counter is used, and if not, caching the resolved spritegroup?
19:47:55  <frosch123> but position hash should use the center x/y position which does not depend on sprite size
19:48:33  <peter1138> Something else about using the sprite size to mark the viewport dirty.
19:48:54  <frosch123> we already have maximum vehicle sprite size computed to determine depot grid size
19:49:06  <frosch123> same can be used to decide whether a veihicle is possibly visible
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19:57:05  <peter1138> So we need V453000's slow NUTS and his savegame to test ;p
19:59:00  <peter1138> Hmm, caching the spritegroup I guess is more hassle, loads of other variables.
20:00:08  <frosch123> the realism control freaks already complain about the cached recoloring
20:04:12  <Markk> Hello everyone, how can I force the to save the config I've made in the settings? Just by closing and opening the game again?
20:04:46  <Markk> My computer crashed without me being able to close OpenTTD properly, and the changes I'd done in settings was restored to default again.
20:04:50  <frosch123> pretty sure there is also a console command
20:05:58  <Markk> Oh, that would be neat
20:06:09  <Markk> Any idea on what it could be or how I can find the command? :)
20:06:22  <frosch123> listcommands
20:07:08  <Markk> saveconfig
20:07:13  <Markk> Thanks!
20:07:53  <Markk> It took me about 3 minutes to get the settings to what I want, so it's a real time saver. So thank you frosch123!
20:26:18  <andythenorth> hmm
20:26:36  * andythenorth wonders if Horse makes OpenTTD slow
20:27:18  <V453000> just build 700 trains :P
20:27:50  <V453000> from my current experience if you're not going apeshit on count_veh_id 20 times on every single 4/8 vehicle, it's probably not too bad
20:29:06  <V453000> Elapsed time: 0h:00m:33s
20:29:11  <V453000> dam, .bat timestamp :D
20:35:13  <andythenorth> yeah I do use that though
20:49:45  <peter1138> Well...
20:59:06  <andythenorth> ? :)
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21:05:37  <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: well, depends on what you're trying to do, but you could maybe use STORE_TEMP to slightly reduce it? :)
21:13:51  <andythenorth> MOAR FASTER
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