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Log for #openttd on 2nd August 2019:
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05:07:41  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 opened issue #7678: Crash on loading saved game from #4397 https://git.io/fj9wZ
05:14:42  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on issue #7646: Random map generation failure crashes the game (dedicated server). https://git.io/fj9wn
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06:42:22  <andythenorth> yo
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07:19:56  <LordAro> someone should really look at some of these savegames
07:20:07  <LordAro> apparently there are a lot of them
07:29:22  <andythenorth> 'someone should really' is a common thing :)
07:29:27  <andythenorth> I noticed the same though
07:29:39  <andythenorth> variation between master and stable?
07:29:50  <andythenorth> or did I misunderstand the reports?
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07:34:24  <LordAro> andythenorth: i do say it a lot, for sure :p
07:34:29  <LordAro> time tho :(
07:35:36  <andythenorth> oof
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07:50:29  <LordAro> not like i have the "family" excuse either
07:53:09  <andythenorth> grinding savegames does not appeal much to me :P
07:54:05  <andythenorth> @calc 357*2000
07:54:05  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 714000
07:54:42  <andythenorth> turns out I'll happilly grind 714k pixels :P
07:54:49  <andythenorth> probably more like 1m, all in
07:55:10  <andythenorth> that's like 1m clicks, my trackpad is getting well-used
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08:24:56  <Samu> what's the fastest sort in number of operations?
08:25:23  <Samu> for pathfinder purposes/script opcode
08:25:26  <Samu> s
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08:38:42  <andythenorth> is Firefox over?
08:38:45  <andythenorth> it really just doesn't work
08:39:24  <andythenorth> I constantly have to quit it due to non-responsive windows
08:41:21  <arikover> It may be OS-related: I'm not experiencing such problems at the moment (Ubu 18.04)
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08:42:53  <andythenorth> might be the Mac build only
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08:48:25  <arikover> Surely you already tried every fix in the book already?
08:49:24  <andythenorth> I have not tried any
08:49:26  <andythenorth> it's all BS
08:49:36  <arikover> oh.
08:49:36  <andythenorth> 'reset to factory defaults' all that crap
08:50:41  * andythenorth deletes the only two extensions installed
08:51:17  <andythenorth> FF is a turkey, I only use it to segregate certain logged in services from general browsing
08:51:30  <andythenorth> Chrome for general internet
08:51:36  <andythenorth> Safari for web dev :P
08:51:55  <andythenorth> but ha ha, IE will be available for Mac soon (again)
08:52:35  <arikover> Well now you just have to wait for IE, I guess...
08:53:15  <andythenorth> looks like dev build is available
08:53:44  <andythenorth> hmm time to go to office
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09:39:00  <Samu> how do I make my save data be compatible with an earlier version of my AI?
09:39:07  <Samu> because it is
09:39:25  <Samu> but it doesn't want to load it
09:40:48  <Samu> i have AI version 12, it saves data as version 12, and it won't load on version 11, even though I know it is compatible
09:40:52  <Samu> how do I force load?
10:05:15  <sergei_> Hi guys! What AI would you recommend?
10:06:18  <sergei_> for play with trains
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10:48:59  <Samu> not mine
10:49:02  <Samu> no trains in it
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11:50:16  <planetmaker> @logs
11:50:16  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: https://webster.openttdcoop.org/index.php?channel=openttd
12:20:35  <andythenorth> hmm
12:20:55  <andythenorth> I am using animated red-black pixel for rear lights on trains
12:21:13  <andythenorth> that's not going to work eh
12:21:44  <Eddi|zuHause> depends on your definition of "work"
12:24:45  <andythenorth> well for [unknow proportion] of player base, full animation needs to be  off
12:24:56  <andythenorth> which leads to the pixel being frequently invisible
12:25:31  <andythenorth> 'work' ?
12:25:33  <planetmaker> why... would they be invisible for those?
12:25:51  <planetmaker> as in not changinge colour? I guess that's the definition of "animation on/off"
12:26:17  <andythenorth> they frequently get stuck on the black part of the cycle
12:26:26  <Eddi|zuHause> so, you want it to be blinking, but fear that for some people who have animation off, it'll be in the "black" state?
12:26:32  <planetmaker> with animation=off I'm not concerned about that
12:26:32  <andythenorth> yes
12:26:46  <andythenorth> mostly I don't see them, because I can't use full animation
12:26:52  <andythenorth> so I was shipping bugs for months
12:27:02  <andythenorth> maybe I animate them myself
12:27:08  <planetmaker> animation not happening with animation=off sounds like "works as designed"
12:27:21  <andythenorth> yes, my point is, should I no use it
12:27:23  <andythenorth> not *
12:27:23  <Eddi|zuHause> there's two red blinking cycles, so try the other one?
12:27:47  <andythenorth> I only know of one, the crossing cycle
12:27:52  <andythenorth> there's the fire cycle also
12:28:07  <Eddi|zuHause> but there's two crossing lights that alternate, or not?
12:28:09  <Samu> creating a list of vehicles that go to a station can be too slow when there are already too many vehicles in the world
12:28:17  <planetmaker> I don't think so @ eddi
12:28:20  <andythenorth> they are drawn one starting on black, one on red
12:28:29  <Samu> as slow as spike burst stalls
12:28:44  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, use the one that starts on red
12:29:08  <andythenorth> ok so this is a problem local to me
12:29:22  <planetmaker> https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/PalettesAndCoordinates#Palettes <-- I see one...?
12:29:28  <andythenorth> I frequently turn animation on and off for $valid reasons
12:29:36  <andythenorth> most players probably don't
12:29:45  <Samu> noticeable for example with 15 AIs
12:30:47  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: "red cycle" clearly points to two entries there
12:31:17  <planetmaker> yes... two colours. _You say each pixel there is a separate cycle?
12:31:23  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
12:31:25  <andythenorth> strictly yes
12:31:30  <Eddi|zuHause> one is red/black and one is black/red
12:31:31  <andythenorth> they're timed differently, two cycles
12:31:35  <planetmaker> and as in we have 7 fire cycles
12:31:39  <andythenorth> strictly yes
12:31:41  <planetmaker> with that definition...yes
12:31:44  <andythenorth> natural confusion
12:31:55  <andythenorth> semantics :P
12:32:25  <andythenorth> I won't animate them myself :D
12:32:54  <Eddi|zuHause> why are they animated rear lights in the first place?
12:33:03  <andythenorth> 'realism'
12:33:11  <andythenorth> for certain cases, not others
12:33:15  <andythenorth> and because I could :P
12:33:16  <planetmaker> trains I see passing have no blinking rear lights :)
12:33:33  <andythenorth> I could just use solid red
12:33:34  <Eddi|zuHause> i mean, which real case are you modelling?
12:33:51  <andythenorth> US /  UK non-built-in rear lights from about 1970,
12:33:57  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, drunk driver hitting switches randomly :P
12:34:16  <andythenorth> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/End-of-train_device
12:34:39  <andythenorth> but it could easily just be solid red
12:36:48  * andythenorth uses paint bucket
12:36:50  <Eddi|zuHause> but, back to your "animation off" problem, i think it should be solvable by using the other palette entry
12:37:24  <andythenorth> I do :)
12:37:33  <andythenorth> it should be solid red with animation off
12:37:37  <andythenorth> it's just frequently not
12:37:43  <andythenorth> but that's local to me
12:38:00  <Eddi|zuHause> it'll only be a problem if you switch it on and off
12:38:48  <andythenorth> yes
12:41:21  <andythenorth> thanks
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14:35:49  <Eddi|zuHause> hm, my garbage trucks create a huge pile of traffic jam
14:42:42  <Eddi|zuHause> ... and i can't solve it until the landfills have been cleared out
14:47:20  <andythenorth> oof
14:47:34  <andythenorth> my peasants in Warcraft kept getting stuck
14:47:47  <andythenorth> I had to destroy town buildings for them
14:53:31  <Eddi|zuHause> why hasn't there been a warcraft 4?
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15:09:28  <andythenorth> https://www.gamingscan.com/warcraft-4-release-date-news-and-rumors/
15:09:33  <andythenorth> LMGTFY :)
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15:46:49  <Eddi|zuHause> i was just thinking "they probably just make a remake of 3"
15:47:40  <Samu> my AI is now valuatorless
15:48:29  <Eddi|zuHause> so... i built a freight port... and it immediately can't handle the amount of trucks trying to come in
15:52:19  <Samu> just finished codechanging this to not use valuators, I'm unsure if I like the results yet, must test.
16:11:23  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: sounds like OpenTTD
16:11:33  <Eddi|zuHause> worse...
16:18:04  <Eddi|zuHause> i now upgraded to 3 ports, maybe it'll distribute them, or just spawn more trucks
16:26:01  <Samu> I'm already thinking of my next AI tournament
16:27:23  <Samu> in groups of  insert a big number up to 15 AIs will fight in the same map
16:27:34  <Samu> only one will stand out
16:27:46  <Samu> i'm not sure yet for how long I will run it
16:29:10  <Samu> probably will be in groups of 12, since there's 48 AIs
16:29:34  <Samu> too bad I can't setup 48 AIs :(
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16:33:42  <Samu> my AI frametime is less spiky, but the average ms have increased
16:34:00  <Samu> the AI also feels delayed
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16:36:31  <Samu> at least the max ops is not decreasing all the way down to 500
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16:36:58  <Samu> spikes would do that
16:42:53  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/website] James103 opened issue #96: www.openttd.org always shows  https://git.io/fj9Sd
16:55:16  <Eddi|zuHause> bot broken?
16:56:12  <Eddi|zuHause> ah no, title was broken
16:58:18  <Samu> will variable max ops be a thing in openttd?
16:59:09  <Samu> the variation is cpu dependant
16:59:58  <Samu> but makes things irreproducible
17:00:10  <Samu> due to that
17:01:40  <Samu> aww snap, got 500 max ops just now, t.t
17:03:12  <Samu> the damn thing is over sensitive, decrease adjustments are too sharp
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17:06:15  <Samu> this is a situation where I need my system to find out what's taking too much time
17:06:22  <Samu> my computer :(
17:07:02  <acklen> you need a server farm
17:08:45  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nikolas commented on pull request #7086: Change #6173: Update SDL driver to use SDL 2.0 https://git.io/fj99c
17:11:18  <Samu> 141 days needed to pathfind with 28 tries
17:11:35  <Samu> considering there's 15 AIs, this ain't bad
17:12:10  <Samu> the default 10000 would probably take longer
17:37:33  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/website] glx22 commented on issue #96: www.openttd.org always shows "Login" instead of "Logout (account name)" https://git.io/fj995
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17:39:53  <Samu> i had an idea
17:41:30  <Samu> a button or hotkey to hide all open windows, to peak at the main world
17:41:52  <Samu> pressing it again, brings all windows back to their exact place
17:42:06  <Samu> some sort of "peak desktop" for openttd
17:44:05  <Samu> this monitor is just too small for my liking
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18:26:58  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on issue #7611: Accident/disaster news not always showing https://git.io/fj9H8
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18:59:02  <andythenorth> is cat?
19:00:10  <Arveen> is MROW
19:02:50  <LordAro> is caterpillar
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19:19:04  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #7677: Fix #7672: more than 32 resolutions may be available https://git.io/fj9QZ
19:19:10  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro merged pull request #7677: Fix #7672: more than 32 resolutions may be available https://git.io/fj9Bj
19:19:21  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro closed issue #7672: Crash when opening Game Options https://git.io/fjyKl
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19:21:54  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nikolas updated pull request #7086: Change #6173: Update SDL driver to use SDL 2.0 https://git.io/fhamZ
19:23:38  <Samu> jesus this cpu is really bad, compared to mine... https://www.cpubenchmark.net/compare/Intel-Celeron-E1400-vs-AMD-FX-8150-Eight-Core/674vs263
19:24:28  <Samu> didn't expect single-thread performance to be worse than mine
19:25:33  <milek7> why? it's old celeron
19:25:55  <glx> of course a celeron is bad
19:26:10  <glx> it was already bad when it appeared IIRC :)
19:31:34  <Samu> https://www.cpubenchmark.net/compare/Intel-Celeron-E1400-vs-AMD-Athlon-XP-2700+/674vs229
19:31:38  <Samu> wow, it's really bad
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19:36:13  <LordAro> it's over 10 years old
19:36:36  <LordAro> and yes, it was the bargin basement of intel CPUs when it was released
19:37:02  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro requested changes for pull request #7658: Add: 'getsysdate' console command https://git.io/fj9QK
19:39:12  <andythenorth> is it as bad as mine?
19:39:23  <andythenorth> I can get OpenTTD to use 98% of CPU whilst paused
19:39:52  <andythenorth> it ran my battery flat in about 40 minutes this morning :P
19:40:35  <glx> 98% of CPU just to refresh the screen ?
19:40:44  <glx> something is weird
19:41:39  <andythenorth> actually I exaggerate
19:41:46  <andythenorth> it's only 49% of CPU whilst paused
19:41:55  <andythenorth> time to buy a new laptop?
19:42:30  <andythenorth> it's 98% if I unpause, and put the map in the corner
19:43:15  <andythenorth> do we need to drop support for older hardware?
19:44:52  <milek7> btw. is that rate counter out of range or something? ;P
19:44:58  <milek7> https://i.imgur.com/Kwk3Jnp.png
19:45:41  <andythenorth> it can be topped out
19:46:29  <glx> and these high values in fast forward are not really relevant ;)
19:46:56  <glx> it's more important to have the "right" values at normal speed
19:47:21  <glx> ~33fps
19:47:32  <andythenorth> I'd just like my battery back :P
19:47:37  <andythenorth> and yes 33fps would be nice
19:47:40  <andythenorth> 16fps is a bit laggy
19:48:07  <andythenorth> but my laptop is is getting old
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20:00:29  <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain commented on issue #96: www.openttd.org always shows "Login" instead of "Logout (account name)" https://git.io/fj9Q9
20:04:41  <Samu> openttd needs a benchmark :p
20:09:36  <Samu> oh such a tiny window
20:10:06  <Samu> milek7:
20:12:04  <milek7> yeah, it isn't that fast on fullscreen ;)
20:12:19  <Samu> https://imgur.com/undefined
20:12:23  <Samu> https://imgur.com/lACkN5g
20:12:25  <Samu> lel
20:14:41  <milek7> speaking of benchmarks, i have 15fps on wentbourne.sav ;P
20:14:44  <Samu> AI manages stable 10000 on trashy celeron
20:14:48  <Samu> 15 instances
20:16:13  <glx> wentbourne doesn't count I think
20:17:38  <Samu> let me open wentbourne.save
20:18:49  <andythenorth> are we testing recent master here, or 1.9.x?
20:18:58  <andythenorth> and debug builds, or prod?
20:19:37  <milek7> prod
20:19:59  <andythenorth> ok, so with master, I can get 20fps
20:20:04  <andythenorth> and 20fps on ffwd
20:20:15  <andythenorth> map size is 64x64
20:20:36  <andythenorth> no vehicles, no AI
20:20:57  <Samu> that is some bad system
20:21:00  <andythenorth> yes
20:21:05  <andythenorth> it's from like 2018
20:21:08  <andythenorth> so it's really old
20:21:18  <Samu> 2018, 1 year old?
20:21:20  <andythenorth> yes
20:21:22  <glx> for a mac yes
20:21:36  <glx> it's old when new ;)
20:21:39  <andythenorth> yes
20:22:08  <andythenorth> it's a crap chip
20:22:09  <glx> but always expensive
20:22:24  <glx> because there's an apple on it
20:22:49  <andythenorth> https://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=Intel+Core+i7-8559U+%40+2.70GHz&id=3302
20:23:17  <andythenorth> value for money 0
20:23:43  <andythenorth> and not good enough to run OpenTTD
20:24:23  <andythenorth> if I turn off full animation, the same map gets about 33fps
20:24:56  <andythenorth> and about 300-400fps on ffwd
20:25:24  <glx> https://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=AMD+FX-6100+Six-Core&id=257
20:25:48  <glx> that's mine
20:25:54  <Samu> wentbourne.sav gets 4.9 - 5 fps
20:26:12  <Samu> (0.15x)
20:26:14  <milek7> mine is https://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=AMD+Ryzen+5+3600&id=3481
20:26:19  <andythenorth> with 1.9.1 the same map gets about 16fps
20:26:30  <Samu> oh, but im on my custom build
20:26:49  <andythenorth> ffwd gets on 1.9.1 gets about 100-200fps
20:27:07  <andythenorth> if I turn off full animation, the same map gets about 33fps
20:27:13  <glx> IIRC the cpu is not the main issue on OSX :)
20:27:19  <andythenorth> ffwd gets around 2k fps
20:27:29  <glx> there's something weird with the screen drawing
20:27:44  <andythenorth> so 1.9.1 is slower to draw full animation, at normal speed
20:27:47  <andythenorth> than master
20:27:52  <andythenorth> but runs ffwd much much faster
20:28:04  <andythenorth> and generally holds up frame rates in normal game play with animation off
20:28:13  <andythenorth> whereas master drops to 15-16fps in gameplay
20:28:32  <andythenorth> it's all lolz :)
20:31:17  <milek7> maybe try to bisect it?
20:31:34  <andythenorth> I will once I've finished Iron Horse 2 beta
20:31:46  <andythenorth> 2 trains left to draw :P
20:32:02  <glx> until you add more trains ;)
20:33:26  <andythenorth> that's 2.1
20:33:26  <andythenorth> :P
20:33:28  <andythenorth> there are rules
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20:38:00  <Samu> test my build, https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=85608
20:38:04  <Samu> someone
20:38:21  <Samu> only 5 downloads, 1 was me :(
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20:40:35  <milek7> Samu: i managed to find even slower cpu ;)
20:40:37  <milek7> https://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=Intel+Atom+N450+%40+1.66GHz&id=618
20:41:05  <milek7> 60fps on ffwd on fresh map
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20:54:35  <Samu> animation disabled?
20:55:18  <Samu> test my build on that with some AI(s)
20:55:49  <Samu> look at those max ops if you can
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20:57:52  <Samu> oh, dont tell me that's a 32-bit cpu
21:00:39  <milek7> yes, it's on 32 bit OS
21:00:52  <Samu> crap :(
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21:01:15  <Samu> build it yourself https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/compare/master...SamuXarick:SamuPatchPackRebase?expand=1#commits_bucket
21:02:29  <Samu> I don't know why Alberth commit got there
21:02:38  <Samu> but whatever
21:07:31  <milek7> it would take ages ;)
21:07:35  <milek7> i can test something on my ryzen later
21:08:52  <Samu> cool, thx
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22:30:31  <Eddi|zuHause> hm, i'm 3/4 building a cloverleaf, and debating whether i should do the 4th leaf or do a half-direct turn instead
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22:40:34  <Eddi|zuHause> not that building a cloverleaf in C:S is difficult enough as it is
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