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Log for #openttd on 27th September 2019:
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08:53:45  <andythenorth> o/
09:01:42  <Samu> multiple rail types in the same tile
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09:04:14  <Eddi|zuHause> \o
09:04:53  <andythenorth> rewrite nml to be fast then? o_O
09:05:11  <Eddi|zuHause> sure, how fast you want it to be done?
09:05:50  <Eddi|zuHause> it's just a compiler. compilers are a solved problem.
09:06:33  <Eddi|zuHause> my compiler construction professor always said this lecture should be called "history of computer science", because all this stuff was basically done in the 70s
09:07:56  <andythenorth> how many nml users are there?
09:08:09  * andythenorth wonders where the utility is in spending time on a rewrite
09:08:14  <andythenorth> is it just me using it?
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09:08:50  <Eddi|zuHause> total users, active users, future users, concurrent users?
09:09:05  <andythenorth> yes
09:09:47  <Eddi|zuHause> plenty, fewer, dunno, meh?
09:11:18  <andythenorth> I could design around it
09:11:37  <andythenorth> splitting grfs up seems quite plausible
09:11:58  <Eddi|zuHause> for whatever design you can come up with, you'll probably be the only user, ever
09:12:12  <andythenorth> well that simplifies design :)
09:12:25  <andythenorth> Iron Horse Pont Engines
09:12:27  <andythenorth> Pony *
09:12:31  <andythenorth> Iron Horse Pony Wagons
09:12:35  <andythenorth> Iron Horse Pony Coaches
09:12:37  <andythenorth> etc
09:12:43  <andythenorth> all individual grfs
09:12:50  <Eddi|zuHause> that makes literally no sense
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09:15:42  <andythenorth> will be substantially faster
09:16:04  <andythenorth> and the work to do it will balance very well against the time saved
09:16:08  <andythenorth> so it's logical conclusion?
09:17:39  * andythenorth wonders about the user experience
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09:49:39  <Eddi|zuHause> user experience will be horrible and your maintenance costs will skyrocket
09:54:48  <andythenorth> why does my code get shorter as I handle more cases, more generically? :P
09:55:14  <andythenorth> long if-else blocks -> loops
09:55:20  <andythenorth> long blocks of declarations -> loops
09:56:06  * andythenorth knows why this is :P
09:56:19  <andythenorth> just procrastinating from a fiddly problem
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11:00:37  <Samu> hi
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11:54:40  <Nat> hey
11:59:20  <Eddi|zuHause> so, how's that procrastinating working out for you?
12:05:48  <Samu> damn bugs
12:06:26  <Samu> I actually posted a fix for this one but nobody cares
12:08:27  <Samu> it's stale
12:09:34  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: fixed all the intermodal container rendering
12:09:43  <andythenorth> and all the rules for which cargo shows which container
12:09:45  <andythenorth> with randomisation
12:09:46  <Samu> https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/7486 - still present in 1.9.3
12:09:50  <andythenorth> and class based fallback
12:09:57  <andythenorth> just need to draw the containers now :P
12:10:25  <Samu> I loaded a save, and now my vehicles are using full load orders, because it rerandomized some parameters on load
12:10:39  <Samu> shouldn't be using full load setting
12:10:52  <andythenorth> the final loop for was only 30 LOC,  of which 10 LOC are whitespace or comments :P
12:11:27  <andythenorth> discovering what the rules needed to be was like 1 day of thinking, and progressively deleting special cases
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12:14:37  <Samu> it's still ultimately, a 'start_date' issue PR
12:14:44  <Samu> so, uhm...
12:14:58  <Samu> is that why nobody did anything about it?
12:16:09  <Samu> i really wish I had my computer
12:16:37  <LordAro> people are busy, and ultimately the problem is not that interedting
12:17:00  <LordAro> interesting*
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13:00:44  <Eddi|zuHause> so, i got this passenger train, which is barely reaching top speed on flat routes, and struggles uphill... options are a) double head it, b) electrify it, or c) ignore it, because it'll run against a red signal from a freight train anyway, and there's no scheduling
13:03:13  <andythenorth> but if (c), does it accelerate slowly?
13:03:28  <andythenorth> recovery time from checks is important w.r.t flow
13:04:06  <Eddi|zuHause> i'll try a) first, i think
13:04:30  <Eddi|zuHause> there should be a shunting option where i add a second engine uphill
13:04:32  <andythenorth> are you contended for train length?
13:04:42  <andythenorth> (a) is best if not contended, lower capital cost
13:04:45  <Eddi|zuHause> i have some room spare for length
13:04:49  * andythenorth has no idea how TF works
13:05:15  <Eddi|zuHause> well, you can make trains as long as you want, and it gives you options for platform length
13:05:24  <Eddi|zuHause> ... which you can increase with mods
13:07:30  <Eddi|zuHause> in my current game i'm using 400m as my baseline platform length, and this train is about 300m long
13:09:09  <Eddi|zuHause> tbh, electrifying is ridiculously cheap in this game, and would be probably the best choice from raw gameplay perspective
13:09:48  <Eddi|zuHause> but lack of shunting also would mean electrifying most of the network at once
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15:10:07  <Samu> road vehicles should slow down to breakdown, like trains do
15:13:16  <Samu> ships could perhaps have a breakdown-mix between that of a road vehicle and that of an aircraft
15:13:42  <Samu> moves at reduced speed during breakdown, and lasts only a few seconds
15:14:07  <Samu> while emiting smoke or so
15:15:51  <nielsm> https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=39518
15:17:12  <Eddi|zuHause> a ship of any decent size doesn't really slow down if it "breaks"
15:17:38  <nielsm> at least it takes a long while for it to
15:18:33  * peter1138 mumbles about flight dynamics of Elite Dangerous...
15:19:30  <Eddi|zuHause> there's preservation of momentum, and ships have excessive amounts of momentum
15:20:32  <Eddi|zuHause> so if anything, a broken down ship would become uncontrollable and ram something in its path
15:21:40  <peter1138> Make a PR ;)
15:22:20  <Eddi|zuHause> add to the other bunch of PRs that, realistically, i'm never going to finish? :p
15:22:46  <andythenorth> :P
15:22:56  <andythenorth> do I need lunch?
15:23:25  <Eddi|zuHause> i've built this sloped route, and have no clue where to put the station into the mountain
15:25:05  * andythenorth awaits Eddi|zuHause twitch stream
15:25:23  <Eddi|zuHause> ... if anyone wants to watch me play games at 3-7fps?
15:25:46  <nielsm> :D
15:25:49  <Eddi|zuHause> (not accounting for additional load of compressing videos)
15:26:04  <Eddi|zuHause> also, gtg
15:26:09  <Eddi|zuHause> away for the weekend
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17:00:16  <Samu> wishlist for openttd 2
17:00:41  <Samu> a new vehicle type
17:01:15  <Samu> some kind of vehicle that walks underground
17:01:28  <andythenorth> worms!
17:01:34  <andythenorth> moles!
17:01:41  <Samu> submerges water and land
17:02:09  <Samu> elevators
17:02:17  <Samu> lel
17:02:57  <Samu> makes the xyz coordinates relevant
17:03:36  <Samu> instead of a X or Y tunnel, it can also walk in Z tunnels
17:05:07  <Samu> maybe call it submarine if it walks on water
17:05:13  <Samu> elevators and submarines :p
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17:06:20  <Samu> negative levels for water
17:07:02  <Samu> negative heights, they can move ultra fast, kinda like aircraft speed
17:07:19  <Samu> they submerge at the speed an aircraft lift offs
17:08:33  <Samu> they "land" at subports
17:08:42  <Samu> or aquaports
17:08:44  <Samu> or so
17:09:01  <Samu> waterport :p
17:10:30  <Samu> there may be a hybrid engine that can be a submarine and elevator at the same time, walks on both terrains
17:12:01  <Samu> subport seems like the correct name
17:12:15  <Samu> fits both vehicle types
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17:17:09  <Samu> generally, hybrid vehicles move faster under water, aircraft speed kind of speed, and move slower under ground, truck speed levels
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17:36:12  <Samu> how to make a z-tunnel
17:37:07  <Samu> hmm
17:38:05  <Samu> x and y tunnels would be pretty much water tunnels, i've heard ppl tried water tunnels for ships somewhere
17:39:10  <Samu> the difference would be that the entrance would be in a negative-height coordinate
17:39:31  <Samu> inside the water
17:41:07  <Samu> at least graphic-wise, then they move up to height 0, already hidden from view
17:42:20  <Samu> and the tunnel then goes to either direction from there: x, y or z, maybe zx and zy too for climbing terrain underground
17:43:02  <Samu> hum, no enthusiasm around here
17:45:19  <nielsm> would require the big landscape rewrite to be RCT-like instead of a flat map
17:46:08  <nielsm> I think
17:48:18  <Samu> just having fun thinking
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17:50:27  <Samu> walking above the ground you say?
17:50:43  <Samu> i wasn't thinking of that
17:50:56  <Samu> it's all under the ground or under water
17:51:27  <Samu> the ground is the limit
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18:05:56  <Wolf01> Tamping
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19:21:00  <nielsm> the servers listing webpage, what's the criterium for which version gets listed first? just which one has the most servers?
19:22:27  <frosch123> i would expect it to use http://finger.openttd.org/versions.txt
19:22:51  <frosch123> so yeah, looks like that has not been mirgrated to git :)
19:22:59  <nielsm> it's listing 1.9.2 servers first atm, and then everything else after a break
19:23:32  <frosch123> ok, let's look at the source :p
19:23:51  <glx> it's still using old architecture too
19:26:29  <frosch123> oh, it's hand coded into the website ..
19:26:32  <glx> easy to spot for me, it's using the openttd logo with ipv6 mark
19:26:37  <frosch123> i did not know this needs manual mainteneance
19:26:58  <frosch123> i wonder who updated it the past years then
19:27:30  <frosch123> ah, no, it was automated in the past
19:27:50  <frosch123> someone (likely tb) inserted the hard coded number when disabling part of the old infrastructure
19:27:51  <frosch123> ls
19:28:36  <frosch123> ok, updated it
19:28:44  <frosch123> let's see whether django autoreload works
19:28:48  <frosch123> or whether i need to kick something
19:34:14  <nielsm> hm guess I'll try to reproduce this... https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/issues/7438#issuecomment-508498478
19:34:29  <nielsm> start 1.9.3 with dmusic driver on softsynth and leave it playing all night (speakers off)
19:34:34  <nielsm> see how well it works in the morning
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19:46:06  <supermop_pdx> yo
19:46:58  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7639: Fix: Total reset of DMusic driver once every hour https://git.io/JeZCP
19:47:42  <frosch123> nielsm: 1.9.3 is now at the top
19:47:54  <frosch123> i had to kick something
19:48:02  <nielsm> nice
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19:48:49  <nielsm> anyway, I'm out, gn
19:48:53  <nielsm> hope to close that PR tomorrow
19:49:29  <supermop_pdx> yo andythenorth
19:49:38  <andythenorth> yo
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20:43:43  <andythenorth> oops
20:43:51  <andythenorth> Unable to allocate ID for [random]switch, sprite set/layout/group or produce-block. Try reducing the number of such blocks.
20:48:52  <andythenorth> what did I do? :P
20:49:49  <andythenorth> https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pqb6egrmw/m3vk7v/raw
20:50:31  <Samu> you reached some limit?
20:51:14  <peter1138> Disturbs you very much?
20:52:07  <andythenorth> greatly
20:52:15  <andythenorth> goes it throw out?
20:53:47  <Samu> the ppl here say I listen to terrifying music :(
20:54:20  <andythenorth> it's not that many random switches :P https://paste.openttdcoop.org/prycxpydp/f2rk7s/raw
20:55:39  <milek7> it happens with C too ;P
20:55:46  <milek7> fatal error C1061: compiler limit: blocks nested too deeply
20:56:19  <frosch123> andythenorth: reorder your switching
20:56:52  <frosch123> put switching referencing each other closer together
20:57:22  <andythenorth> am I out of varaction 2 ids? :P
20:57:40  <frosch123> order them depth-first, not breadth-first
20:58:16  <Samu> 11 views since 2014... I really must have weird taste in music
20:59:00  <frosch123> nmlc info: Concurrent spritegroups: 241/256 ("generated/iron-horse.nml", line 59783) <- at  line 59783 you have 241 switches which were defined before line 59783 and which are referenced after lint 59783
20:59:37  <frosch123> move them closer together, so you do not need to reference a switch from ages ago
20:59:48  <andythenorth> thx
20:59:55  * andythenorth frowns at template loops
21:00:14  <frosch123> looking at the generated source
21:00:25  <frosch123> you probably define all spritegroups first, and then all switches
21:00:29  <andythenorth> yes
21:00:31  <frosch123> make them instead alternate
21:00:38  <frosch123> interlave spritesets and spritegroups
21:00:44  <andythenorth> the spritegroups are shared globally, not per vehicle
21:00:48  <andythenorth> due to compile time
21:01:00  <andythenorth> but the switches are per vehicle
21:01:47  <glx> ignore compile time if you can't compile at all ;)
21:02:02  <frosch123> so, all vehicles have the same graphics?
21:02:18  <andythenorth> it's a layer showing containers
21:02:23  <andythenorth> containers all same for all vehicles
21:02:30  <andythenorth> (except length)
21:02:49  <frosch123> why do you have those switches for each vehicle then? shouldn't they also be global
21:03:02  <andythenorth> possibly yes
21:03:13  <andythenorth> I might have been confused about random triggers
21:03:15  <frosch123> and shouldn't there only be one global switch "containers" in the end?
21:03:41  <andythenorth> I need the random trigger on new load
21:03:49  <andythenorth> does that work with a global switch?
21:04:03  <frosch123> why wouldn't it?
21:04:08  <Samu> WormnestAndroid: what kind of map size do you run your AI tests?
21:04:54  <Samu> I can't reproduce WormAI outperforming other AIs... ever
21:05:00  <andythenorth> ok thanks, I'll refactor
21:06:55  <Samu> "ever" is a strong statement, but I'm retrying your AIs on that screenshots
21:07:06  <Samu> WormAI oscillates 4th and 5th in profits
21:08:09  <andythenorth> hmm
21:10:33  <andythenorth> am I just checking too many cargos? :) https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pghvobgew/7ibp3e/raw
21:11:04  <andythenorth> a lot of these random switches only have one entry :P
21:11:30  <frosch123> yes, and you need to put the switch that is referenced by that entry directly before it
21:12:31  <frosch123> switch/spritegroup/spriteset, whatever is referenced there
21:13:06  <frosch123> or you could teach nml to reorder them when they are not separated by "if" or similar
21:13:23  <frosch123> but that's probably complicated :p
21:14:54  <andythenorth> oof :)
21:16:18  <Samu> well, i didn't start in 1980, maybe that's why
21:16:45  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] abmyii opened pull request #7752: Prevent sounds being produced by inactive industries https://git.io/JeZlF
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21:46:15  <Samu> preferred max distance 2921, is that manhattan? that's absurdly too high
21:46:35  <Samu> there's breakdowns enabled
21:47:09  <Samu> WormnestAndroid:
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21:48:06  <andythenorth> hmm that might have worked
21:49:46  <andythenorth> Concurrent spritegroups: 155/256
21:54:39  <andythenorth> thanks
21:56:07  <frosch123> magic :p
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