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Log for #openttd on 1st October 2019:
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02:59:04  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frenchiveruti opened issue #7757: Compiling from source gives an instant crash without information in the log-file https://git.io/JengC
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08:14:33  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #7757: Compiling from source gives an instant crash without information in the log-file https://git.io/JengC
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10:40:11  <peter1138> Hmm, okay, what's the most useful version of git for Windows?
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10:51:44  <Eddi|zuHause> tortoisehg :p
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10:52:05  <Eddi|zuHause> ... i could never make sense of wtf tortoisegit is meant to do
10:52:53  <Eddi|zuHause> ... afair it only added a menu entry that when you tried to select it said "this is a command line interface"
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11:31:11  <peter1138> Is it breakfast time yet?
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12:01:51  <peter1138> Yup, breakfast salad, here I come :D
12:23:00  <peter1138> Lunch was had.
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12:25:55  <andythenorth> yo
12:26:10  * andythenorth curious about lunch 
12:27:57  <peter1138> I had it.
12:28:04  <peter1138> Sorry, I didn't wait for you.
12:28:22  <andythenorth> I had cheese on toast
12:28:25  <andythenorth> and 2 cookies
12:28:30  <andythenorth> it's not salad is it?
12:33:49  <peter1138> Mine was.
12:34:34  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frenchiveruti commented on issue #7757: Compiling from source gives an instant crash without information in the log-file https://git.io/JengC
12:35:16  <andythenorth> romaine hearts and weird shaped tomatos
12:35:19  <andythenorth> that's salad now
12:35:48  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frenchiveruti commented on issue #7757: Compiling from source gives an instant crash without information in the log-file https://git.io/JengC
12:36:40  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frenchiveruti commented on issue #7757: Compiling from source gives an instant crash without information in the log-file https://git.io/JengC
12:37:19  <peter1138> Well...
12:37:36  <peter1138> Half a little gem, and a load of other stuff. Hmm.
12:46:33  <andythenorth> is cold roast pork a salad?
12:46:38  * andythenorth is exploring the fridge
12:47:35  <Eddi|zuHause> is anything not a salad?
12:51:34  <andythenorth> chips?
12:51:39  <andythenorth> coffee?
12:51:49  <andythenorth> antacids tablets?
12:51:59  <Eddi|zuHause> chips is almost like potato salad?
12:53:00  <andythenorth> I accept your correction
12:53:08  <andythenorth> coffee is a bean
12:53:15  <andythenorth> also
12:59:52  <peter1138> My cake-dessert was not salad.
13:00:33  <peter1138> Both pieces, cos I'm a fucking pig.
13:01:42  <andythenorth> is a pig salad?
13:01:50  <andythenorth> probably covered by earlier pork discussion
13:01:57  <Eddi|zuHause> probably better than fucking A pig?
13:02:07  <andythenorth> oh good the validator is passing again
13:02:15  * andythenorth back to work jenkins
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13:22:59  <peter1138> https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1179021970945560576
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13:58:08  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Good morning / afternoon everyone
13:58:46  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> I have a simple question, I want to default the audio driver on compilation time (known as SDL) to the "ALSA" and NOT "pulseaudio"
13:58:47  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> https://wiki.libsdl.org/FAQUsingSDL
13:59:02  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> how should I run the "./configure" in order to do that?
13:59:28  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> feel free to answer here if you want your answer to be seen in the future: https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/issues/7757
13:59:31  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Thanks!
14:00:26  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frenchiveruti commented on issue #7757: Compiling from source gives an instant crash without information in the log-file https://git.io/JengC
14:02:05  <nnyby> frenchiveruti_EasyOS: according to that FAQ, you would do: export SDL_AUDIODRIVER=pulseaudio; ./configure; make
14:02:15  <nnyby> but i haven't tried that myself
14:02:30  <LordAro> those options seem specific to the compilation of SDL itself? or am i misreading it?
14:03:00  <LordAro> nnyby: also, the reverse of that :p
14:03:09  <LordAro> SDL_AUDIODRIVER=alsa, probably
14:03:28  <nnyby> ohh, whoops i misread the question. yeah
14:03:38  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> LordAro, you are probably right, I will try to use what nnyby said and see how it goes.
14:04:16  <nnyby> also, yeah i'm not sure. the faq is called "Using SDL", it's unclear if these are SDL compile options or not.. but i suppose that would make sense.
14:05:24  <peter1138> .gitattributes "* text=auto" hmm
14:05:43  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> compiling :)
14:05:49  <peter1138> nnyby, no, they are run-time options.
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14:06:39  <nnyby> in my experience pulseaudio sometimes takes over sound anyways, whether or not it's been compiled in to an application. alsa outputs sound to pulseaudio, if pulseaudio is enabled..
14:06:43  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #7757: Compiling from source gives an instant crash without information in the log-file https://git.io/JengC
14:06:43  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro closed issue #7757: Compiling from source gives an instant crash without information in the log-file https://git.io/JengC
14:08:54  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Yeah, I am not a fan of pulseaudio...
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14:10:36  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> If I come up with a working solution I'll post the answer in the closed thread
14:15:12  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> It fucking works, you did it nnyby and LordAro
14:15:15  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> :D
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14:18:06  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frenchiveruti commented on issue #7757: Compiling from source gives an instant crash without information in the log-file https://git.io/JengC
14:20:04  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Can any of the maintainers tag the issue as "Linux"?
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14:22:57  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Okay I have a new question, if you can help me is appreciated, how can I now make everything run in the same folder, as if it was a portable version of the game
14:23:26  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Instead of it looking and downloading things in ~/.openttd I would like it to do everything where the game is located.
14:23:46  <nielsm> place openttd.cfg in the same directory as the binary
14:23:55  <nielsm> then it should use that as the base for everything
14:24:01  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Would that also make it look for run-time libraries there?
14:24:13  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Or that shouldn't be something I have to worry about.
14:24:13  <nielsm> no that's still dependent on the OS
14:24:28  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Ok, is there a way to provide the libraries with the game?
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14:25:01  <nielsm> either a 100% static build (difficult), or some tricks with LD environment variables which I don't know
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14:26:22  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Alright so this portable installation has a "restrictions may apply"?
14:26:23  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD#43-portable-installations-portable-media
14:27:52  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> I am going to try and see if the game runs on a fresh installation of the OS, luckily that's very easy to achieve.
14:40:54  <planetmaker> he... WARNING: static is only known to work on Windows, DOS, and MacOSX
14:49:36  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Ah okay
14:50:01  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> I'm sure there's some trickery that can be done to make it work, at least on EasyOS.
14:50:03  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Thanks all!
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15:47:42  <doggie> i have maked a save on openttd 1.9.3 in the himalya heightmap. i have build multiply railways and after build trains on it a few wagons are now any more available in the list
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16:05:45  <nielsm> what newgrfs and what year?
16:05:49  <nielsm> and have you used any cheats?
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16:06:31  <doggie>  nielsm: i have i this save cheats not anabled
16:07:56  <doggie> nielsm: i don't understand now what you are maning with newgrfs
16:08:44  <doggie> nielsm: in the year 1952 or 1958 that i found it out
16:10:19  <nielsm> newgrfs are mods such as different trains than the original game
16:11:14  <nielsm> https://0x0.st/zvDp.png
16:11:32  <nielsm> check there if any newgrf are active
16:11:49  <doggie> nielsm: it is empty by me
16:11:58  <doggie> nielsm: the black box
16:12:03  <nielsm> okay
16:12:20  <doggie> i will send a screen off it
16:12:22  <nielsm> that's really strange then if you can't build any trains at all
16:12:54  <doggie> https://1drv.ms/u/s!AqNz1s1u3YLsh3B01jVl3OxiACEw
16:13:32  <nielsm> that looks normal
16:15:55  <doggie> nielsm: yes at the first look it is normal execpt that i can't make the train long after i have build it an drive with it. now can i not found the same wagon. so that it can cargo more load per train. or can build a same train on another track
16:16:11  <nielsm> oh... you can't make long trains
16:16:43  <doggie> nielsm: i can make longer trains
16:17:08  <doggie> nielsm: the wagon from the train in the wagon is not in the list
16:17:39  <doggie> that is my problem. and it was not in 1.9.1
16:19:04  <nielsm> okay I have an idea, try clicking the "show hidden" (verborgen weergeven) button at the top
16:19:13  <nielsm> maybe you accidentally clicked the Hide button for the wagon
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16:36:21  <doggie> nielsm: thanks that is the sulotuin for the problem. i will unhid them
16:36:24  <Samu> continuing yesterdays tests
16:36:32  <Samu> NoNoCAB has fallen to 4th place
16:36:50  <Samu> RailwAI is now the new 3rd place
16:37:27  <Samu> WormAI oscillates between 1st and 3rd, but most of the time it's 2nd place
16:37:55  <Samu> and LuDiAI Afterfix oscillates between 1st and 2nd, against WormAI
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16:48:38  <Samu> i had an idea
16:48:54  <Samu> renaming stations, vehicles, etc... should cost money
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17:01:06  <andythenorth> nielsm: how was the metro?
17:01:08  <andythenorth> o_O
17:03:44  <nielsm> very metroic
17:04:01  <nielsm> the new metro, almost just like the old
17:04:33  <nielsm> even the brand new trains look not much different from the 17 year old ones
17:07:01  <Samu> I wonder which year will all the AIs stagnate
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17:11:22  <Samu> fastforwarding is so terribly, horribly slow, makes me wanna...
17:11:30  <Samu> nvm
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17:19:16  <Samu> i just noticed ShipAI ships don't service
17:19:28  <Samu> 255 breakdowns, lol
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17:20:44  * andythenorth wonders what a regions interface might look like
17:20:56  <andythenorth> is it via tile, or town? o_O
17:21:20  <frosch123> polygons of tiles
17:21:48  <nielsm> my idea was per tile
17:22:04  <frosch123> is there a use case for regions?
17:22:07  <nielsm> though I suppose polygonal would be much less storage
17:22:24  <nielsm> dreams of game scripts
17:22:35  <frosch123> https://wiki.openttd.org/Frosch/GS_Area_Control <- i never found an interesting gs idea for that one
17:22:59  <frosch123> it was inspired by simutrans actually
17:23:19  <frosch123> but back then there weren't any interesting scenarios for simutrans either
17:23:22  <frosch123> maybe they have now
17:24:01  <nielsm> https://wiki.openttd.org/User:Nielsmh/Zones
17:24:07  <nielsm> not as much text :P
17:25:22  <nielsm> but I think it's worth separating natural regions versus political regions
17:25:25  <frosch123> i think zuu had some gs which took input from signs placed in scenario editor
17:25:31  <nielsm> unless you allow overlap
17:25:34  <frosch123> but everyone uses random maps, not se :p
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17:26:32  <frosch123> i mainly wanted to add a gs-hook to commands
17:26:44  <frosch123> and leave the "meaning" to the gs
17:27:21  <andythenorth> my use case is co-locating industries
17:27:34  <andythenorth> I can _somewhat_ do it with location checks already
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17:27:52  <andythenorth> but it's very sensitive to map settings
17:28:10  <andythenorth> and if I add too many checks, it's prone to deadlocks (or more accurately, missing industries)
17:28:17  <andythenorth> and slow game start
17:28:53  <glx> like ECS toursist centers ?
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17:29:08  <glx> silly map requirements
17:30:46  <andythenorth> I like having very inter-connected industry chains in FIRS`
17:31:03  <andythenorth> so maybe 4 or 8 industry types might be related
17:31:15  <andythenorth> and I dislike building long long routes :P
17:33:40  <andythenorth> so my idea is something like defining polygons with radius maybe 48px
17:33:52  <andythenorth> number of polygons depends on map size
17:34:03  <andythenorth> newgrf could request OpenTTD to create n polygons with a label
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17:34:15  <andythenorth> or an ID
17:34:34  <andythenorth> and then industries would check that label / UID / whatever when constructing
17:35:48  <andythenorth> the newgrf could decide whether to include / exclude etc
17:35:54  <andythenorth> local to the CB chain
17:36:41  <andythenorth> this is not the only use case I can think of :)
17:37:34  <andythenorth> but the ideas I have for GS fail because GS is not event driven :)
17:37:46  <andythenorth> and GS is blind to the newgrf
17:37:56  <andythenorth> and also...just GS :P
17:38:01  <frosch123> gs is also after map/industrry gen
17:38:16  <Samu> WormnestAndroid: https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=65&t=75531&p=1225780#p1225780
17:38:25  <Samu> with savegame
17:38:36  <Samu> if you want to check your AI
17:38:38  <andythenorth> to be fair to GS, I think it's already achieved what it's good for
17:38:47  <andythenorth> which is city growth and/or transport goals
17:38:55  <andythenorth> but it's a blunt instrument
17:39:38  <andythenorth> maybe it needs filed under 'all good' and stop even trying to think how to make it work with newgrf
17:41:18  <_dp_> I just was a bit curious to see some stats on what settings serves use...
17:41:26  <_dp_> and, boy, that escalated quickly
17:41:32  <_dp_> now I have a knock-off settings.ini parser, udp client, tcp client and savegame parser all in python xD
17:41:39  <_dp_> and this... https://citymania.org/tools/serverstat
17:42:45  <andythenorth> I love stats :)
17:47:58  <Samu> 92% disasters?
17:48:11  <Samu> weird
17:48:42  * andythenorth wonders about electricity / energy via regions
17:48:57  <andythenorth> there's a proof newgrf somewhere for doing it in town registers
17:49:34  <andythenorth> dunno if electricity is fun though
17:49:41  <andythenorth> is it too much simcity?
17:50:02  <frosch123> so 99% of server people put no thought into settings?
17:51:27  <_dp_> oopsie, I think I got booleans wrong xD
17:51:53  <frosch123> oh, ok, i was particulary confused by those
17:53:24  <glx> yeah build_on_slope and auto_slope clearly feels wrong
17:54:21  <_dp_> booleans fixed
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17:59:24  <_dp_> can clearly see settings with wrong defaults :p
17:59:39  <_dp_> exclusive rights, breakdowns, 90 turns
18:00:37  <Samu> ai_in_multiplayer = true (65.0%), false (35.0%)
18:00:53  <Samu> i never see any AI servers
18:01:51  <Samu> max_no_competitors = 0 (95.6%), 1 (2.7%), 4 (0.5%), 3 (0.5%), 2 (0.5%)
18:01:52  <milek7> 90 turns look 50/50
18:01:55  <Samu> meh that explains it
18:02:41  <_dp_> Samu, don't think it matters if ai list is empty
18:02:52  <Samu> so they turn AIs on, but then set up 0 competitors...
18:02:55  <_dp_> competitors, I think are sent separately, I don't catch those
18:03:19  <_dp_> Samu, it's just on by default
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18:03:36  <Samu> i see
18:03:44  <Samu> they just don't bother with settings then
18:05:09  <_dp_> I've no idea why that setting even exists
18:06:37  <Samu> I have a nasty idea
18:06:43  <Wolf01> Garratt
18:07:07  <Samu> since nobody bothers with settings, change default max_no_competitors from 0 to 1 :p
18:07:30  <Samu> see if that peaks any interest in AIs or just complaints in the forum
18:09:05  <_dp_> Samu, I bet it won't do anything without [ai_players] configured
18:09:40  <Samu> it starts Dummy AI, advising players to download an AI
18:10:48  <Samu> or if they actually have an AI... :p
18:11:22  <andythenorth> Wolf01: Garratt :)
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18:13:15  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/DorpsGek] pyup-bot opened pull request #8: Scheduled monthly dependency update for October https://git.io/JenSh
18:14:06  <Wolf01> I wonder what YT will suggest tomorrow
18:37:43  <andythenorth> kittens
18:43:09  <nielsm> https://0x0.st/zvk5.png  THANK YOU!
18:47:13  <frosch123> :)
18:49:10  <glx> finally
18:50:23  <LordAro> \o/
18:50:42  <glx> oh nice the PR triggered github actions
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19:33:33  <TrueBrain> nielsm: wow, that is a good improvement :o
19:40:05  <andythenorth> so...could we stop this happening? :) https://www.reddit.com/r/openttd/comments/da4ikp/excuse_me/
19:40:16  <andythenorth> I mean the industry placement, not the existence of reddit :P
19:40:50  <andythenorth> ideas I had
19:41:03  <nielsm> huge water check zone in front of industry
19:41:12  <andythenorth> - huge water check zone in front of industry
19:41:28  <andythenorth> - tile search in specific directions, checking for water
19:42:00  <andythenorth> - cache number of connected water tiles, and make it available in a var
19:42:09  <nielsm> aren't there a bunch of bits free in the water tiles? can we add "connects to edge of map" bit somewhere?
19:42:18  <andythenorth> that would be ideal
19:43:05  <andythenorth> there is a possible edge case with all 4 map edges as land, and a big circular sea in middle :P
19:44:28  <frosch123> industry layouts already have that water test
19:44:32  <frosch123> or is that not enough?
19:44:55  <andythenorth> I like to avoid 'locked in' ports
19:44:59  <andythenorth> I know that's a silly concern
19:45:10  <andythenorth> but I end up generating endless newgames to avoid it :)
19:45:43  <frosch123> add the refinery rule
19:45:48  <frosch123> only build near map border
19:46:15  <andythenorth> what's the switch limit?
19:46:18  <andythenorth> 255?
19:46:43  <andythenorth> not enough to tile search to the edge of the map ;P
19:47:31  <andythenorth> alternative proposal
19:47:36  <andythenorth> map gen prevents locked in sea :P
19:47:55  <glx> it's called a lake
19:48:11  <andythenorth> lake!
19:50:23  * nielsm is again trying to find the source of wentbourne transport
19:50:48  <nielsm> the gamelog says it was migrated from saveload version 92 which corresponds to 0.6.x
19:51:01  <nielsm> and then migrated to 1.7.0 and 1.7.1 in turn
19:51:17  <nielsm> so it was probably uploaded during 2017 or early 2018
19:51:22  <nielsm> but it's a very old game
19:53:25  <Samu> intel core i9-10980X 18 cores 36 threads at "only" 9
19:53:47  <glx> only useful in a server
19:54:06  <Samu> right before AMD announces their 64 core threadrippers
19:54:11  <Samu> poor intel
19:54:23  <milek7> i don't think they are poor at all
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19:55:23  <Samu> at least I think they're capable of offering 64-core in that socket
19:55:34  <Samu> direct competing socket
19:55:42  <Samu> platform
19:59:41  <Samu> There was a recession, let's see who comes stronger after
20:00:17  <Samu> WormAI was the least impacted during recession, surprisingly
20:01:19  *** nielsm has quit IRC
20:01:19  <Samu> post recession the other 3 most competitive AIs turned around and WormAI is 4th atm
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20:02:17  <Samu> wondering about RailwAI, it's 2nd atm
20:03:06  <Samu> WormAI vs RailwAI are competing for the 2nd place
20:03:27  <Samu> very volatile profits though
20:04:13  <Samu> as for 5th and 6th, we have SnakeAI vs ShipAI
20:04:46  <Samu> they're further behind as the top 4
20:04:57  <Samu> but competing for the 5th place atm
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20:07:20  <Samu> woah, RailwAI nearly surpassed LuDiAI AfterFix
20:07:37  <Samu> very heat competition for the first 4 AIs
20:07:59  <Samu> well, just 3, I think NoNoCAB has given up
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20:32:47  <Samu> RailwAI reached 1st place for the first time!
20:32:56  <Samu> this is interesting
20:33:36  <Samu> gonna keep this game running, see where it ends
20:33:55  <Samu> hope save / load doesn't affect how they behave
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20:36:48  <Samu> it was short lived :(
20:36:58  <Samu> I mean :)
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21:47:24  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] abmyii commented on pull request #7752: Prevent sounds being produced by inactive industries https://git.io/Jen77
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