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Log for #openttd on 17th November 2019:
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00:31:39  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Yourself opened pull request #7837: fix typo in town growth rates https://git.io/Jeo6F
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00:46:55  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on pull request #7837: fix typo in town growth rates https://git.io/Jeoiq
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03:11:40  <Pikka> zounds
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04:47:29  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Yourself updated pull request #7837: fix typo in town growth rates https://git.io/Jeo6F
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05:30:58  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] telk5093 updated pull request #7817: Feature: minimap command https://git.io/JegRL
05:37:40  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] telk5093 commented on pull request #7817: Feature: Topview screenshot (a.k.a minimap) https://git.io/Jeo1m
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07:21:07  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] telk5093 updated pull request #7817: Feature: Topview screenshot (a.k.a minimap) https://git.io/JegRL
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07:27:04  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] telk5093 updated pull request #7817: Feature: Topview screenshot (a.k.a minimap) https://git.io/JegRL
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08:03:00  <andythenorth> o/
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08:06:05  <andythenorth> JGR-only grfs https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=83704
08:06:08  <andythenorth> still unlikely?
08:06:13  <andythenorth> it's happening
08:17:01  <andythenorth> interesting eh? :)
08:18:26  <Pikka> ew
08:18:40  <andythenorth> hello bob
08:18:51  <Pikka> hello
08:19:00  <andythenorth> pls discurse on snowploughs?
08:19:02  <andythenorth> or snowplows
08:19:09  <andythenorth> I am considering
08:19:12  <Pikka> snoughplows
08:19:21  <andythenorth> snough?
08:19:26  <Pikka> yes
08:19:26  <andythenorth> is that like slough?
08:19:35  <andythenorth> sloughplow
08:19:39  <Pikka> only snoughier
08:19:57  <andythenorth> are snoughploughs pointy?
08:21:07  <Pikka> fairly pointless I'd say
08:21:43  <andythenorth> do you have a sprite for them somewhere?
08:22:22  <andythenorth> I probably have it decompled already, but which set :P
08:23:02  <Pikka> I think there was one in NARS1
08:23:17  <Pikka> I'll see if I can find it
08:23:57  <Pikka> meanwhile, I solved daylength: https://i.imgur.com/c7Wvnbz.png
08:24:13  <andythenorth> oo
08:24:20  <Pikka> if people don't feel there's enough time to play with their favourite era of vehicles, just lock the grf to that era :P
08:24:35  <andythenorth> that's interesting
08:24:59  <andythenorth> I was going to do 2 params, 'generation length' and 'gen 1 start date'
08:25:05  <andythenorth> but Eddi|zuHause said I was wrong :P
08:28:39  <Pikka> https://i.imgur.com/ireAAOz.png dan's NARS snoughplough
08:28:54  <LordAro> andythenorth: wallyweb, the guy that still uses XP and only very begrudgingly uses OTTD over TTDP? i have to say, i am surprised
08:30:15  <andythenorth> Pikka: thx :D
08:30:39  <andythenorth> LordAro: I suspect there will be JGR-specific FIRS soon
08:31:22  <andythenorth> there isn't an attached question, it's just interesting watching transitions between software
08:35:24  <LordAro> andythenorth: what features are you looking to use?
08:35:31  <andythenorth> it won't be me
08:35:36  * LordAro disappears for 4 hours
08:35:39  <andythenorth> I think it will get forked for daylength
08:36:35  <andythenorth> I don't use JGR, I find it overwhelming and confusing
08:40:48  <andythenorth> how fast are snoughploughs then pikka?
08:41:13  <andythenorth> 125mph?
08:42:04  <Pikka> erm
08:42:17  <Pikka> I don't know. Is anyone going to use it on a real train?
08:42:21  <andythenorth> unlikely
08:42:27  <andythenorth> unlimited :P
08:42:34  <andythenorth> 20 bags of mail?
08:43:11  <andythenorth> hmm, it has to be an engine, can't set 'no speed limit' :P
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08:49:23  <nielsm> about 60 km/h for snowploughs I think
08:50:58  <nielsm> this one is 70 km/h https://www.jernbanen.dk/dsb_specsolo.php?aar=1982&VognID=3046
08:52:10  <andythenorth> UK rules say 45mph
08:52:31  <andythenorth> ha ha shunter converted to snowplough (de-powered) https://www.rcts.org.uk/features/diesel-dilemmas/snowplough-class-08s/adb966507
08:52:44  <andythenorth> co-incidence, I just finished drawing the shunter sprite :P
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09:34:56  <andythenorth> this sprite is lolz bad, but I might keep it :)
09:34:59  <andythenorth> snoughplough https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/9531/snowplough_1.png
09:35:05  <andythenorth> pikka pikka pikka
09:35:48  <Pikka> noice
09:35:59  <andythenorth> so realisms
09:36:08  <andythenorth> fine details
09:38:06  <Pikka> very
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10:13:44  <andythenorth> moar realisms :P https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/9532/snowplough_2.png
10:13:47  <andythenorth> not sure it's better
10:13:48  <andythenorth> BIAB
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10:59:55  * andythenorth_ tries to remember why daylength will never work
11:00:22  <andythenorth_> we figured it out here once, but I forgot :p
11:01:04  <andythenorth_> something like ‘daylength doesn’t work like people think it does’
11:01:10  <frosch123> it's about trying to slow tech progression without changing econonmy
11:01:47  <andythenorth_> apparently it will be fine if I just make a JGR FIRS?
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11:12:46  <andythenorth_> found some discussion https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=76875&hilit=Daylength#p1190808
11:13:11  <andythenorth_> problem was conflicting player goals for daylength
11:13:32  <andythenorth_> hence can never work
11:14:11  <andythenorth_> but if it’s done in JGR is it time to just merge it?
11:16:01  <andythenorth_> also has anyone tried it?
11:16:34  * andythenorth_ wonders what it looks like with trains moving much slower
11:16:49  <andythenorth_> seems like it would be very very dull
11:18:42  <andythenorth_> if they want to play the game at 15fps they could just buy a Mac :D
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11:29:37  <Pikka> I do like the stripey snoughplow though
11:30:34  <andythenorth_> so stripe
11:30:49  <andythenorth_> thougplough
11:31:08  <andythenorth_> or thoughplough
11:35:09  <andythenorth_> I need to plug 3 hdmi devices into a TV with 2 hdmi ports
11:35:27  <andythenorth_> is there a solution? o_O?
11:39:07  * andythenorth_ googles
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12:23:50  <TrueBrain> no; nobody solved that. ever. :P
12:23:58  <TrueBrain> silly goose
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14:21:09  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] matthijskooijman opened issue #58: Why is Pillow >= 5.2 required? https://git.io/Jeo71
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14:42:21  <andythenorth> yo
14:42:39  <andythenorth> TrueBrain: you have solved my problem!
14:51:36  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] matthijskooijman opened pull request #59: Simplify pillow imports and version detection https://git.io/Jeo5R
14:51:51  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] matthijskooijman commented on pull request #54: Fix #39: Add compatibility with >=pillow-7.0.0 https://git.io/Jeo50
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15:11:11  <supermop_Home> what's in 1.10.0?
15:11:24  <supermop_Home> somehow it feels early
15:13:13  <nielsm> earlier plan was to have 1.10 final out by october or there about, obviously didn't happen
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15:43:42  <andythenorth> plans
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16:26:37  <andythenorth> could a GS eliminate local authority rating? https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=86314#p1226813
16:27:06  <nielsm> it should be possible to add a GS function to modify LA rating
16:27:24  <nielsm> maybe let GS set a flag to freeze GS rating for a company in a town
16:28:52  <nielsm> freeze LA rating for a company*
16:29:39  <andythenorth> https://nogo.openttd.org/api/1.9.0/classGSTown.html#afd4a428aec98e443a50d8865fd05e4bb
16:29:58  <andythenorth> is that get only?
16:30:00  <andythenorth> can't see a set
16:30:40  <nielsm> yeah get only
16:30:58  <nielsm> and even GS can only get the rating category, not the exact numeric rating
16:31:05  <andythenorth> alternatively we could redefine 'permissive' for the existing openttd setting
16:31:31  <andythenorth> I'm strugging to see a downside to just nerfing the town hostility via the setting
16:31:37  <andythenorth> it's not adding a *new* setting
16:32:38  <nielsm> yeah it'd make sense to allow people who don't play for a game challenge to just not be troubled by towns
16:33:04  <andythenorth> seems to be RATING_ROAD_NEEDED_PERMISSIVE and similar
16:33:07  * andythenorth looking
16:33:59  <andythenorth> new setting 'anything goes' ?
16:34:03  <andythenorth> all values set to -1000?
16:34:15  <nielsm> "unrestricted" yeah
16:34:24  <andythenorth> I have used 'permissive' for years, and I find it very restrictive
16:34:37  <andythenorth> that, and not being able to remove connected road pieces
16:36:44  <frosch123> "lobbying"
16:37:10  <andythenorth> shall I try and patch this?
16:37:18  <andythenorth> one more for the huge stack of PRs? :)
16:37:19  <nielsm> hmm actually, that setting, does it not affect the rate at which LA rating changes, but rather just the rating thresholds for being allowed certain actions?
16:37:23  <andythenorth> yes
16:37:30  <andythenorth> it would still be 'appalling'
16:37:36  <andythenorth> but it wouldn't matter
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18:35:46  <andythenorth> this shape is _so_ simple to draw in OpenTTD pixels :)
18:35:46  <andythenorth> https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.tauntontrains.co.uk%2Foldsite%2Fimages%2F2017-MAR%2F66302-66431-21-03-17-7Z09-FAIRWATER-FAIRWATER-NORTON-TC.jpg&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.tauntontrains.co.uk%2Foldsite%2FNEWS-2017-MAR.htm&tbnid=URWZdxgiX5-O3M&vet=10CCUQMyh2ahcKEwiIhdLA6_DlAhUAAAAAHQAAAAAQAg..i&docid=fggDUn96igqJKM&w=850&h=607&q=GWR%20snowplough&hl=en&ved=0CCUQMyh2ahcKEwiIhdLA6_DlAhUAAAAAHQA
18:35:47  <andythenorth> AAAQAg
18:35:48  <andythenorth> or not
18:40:31  <LordAro> be better at copying links
18:43:58  <frosch123> https://i.ytimg.com/vi/nvEYDUYwvek/maxresdefault.jpg <- when you do the complete snow set
18:44:49  <LordAro> :D
18:45:50  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master https://git.io/JeoAN
18:45:50  <DorpsGek_III>   - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
18:46:52  <andythenorth> I considered SnowPlough grf :P
18:46:56  <andythenorth> all transport types
18:47:03  <andythenorth> can we give them some purpose? :P
18:49:52  <frosch123> confuse future generations when they find the grf in the ice?
18:50:31  <frosch123> late payoff :p
18:50:52  <andythenorth> might be too late for me :P
18:50:59  <andythenorth> long game though
18:54:44  <andythenorth> what's worse?
18:54:53  <andythenorth> OpenTTD is still being played in 100 years?
18:55:05  <andythenorth> Or it isn't because civilisational collapse?
18:56:11  <nielsm> need a way for newgrf vehicles (and industries and houses and newobjects) to produce decorative particles
18:57:11  <nielsm> for snowploughs and to generalise exhaust from steam/diesel engines and exhaust from industries and houses
18:57:33  <nielsm> (e.g. power station chimney, toyland bubble generator)
18:58:48  <andythenorth> imagine the fps then :)
18:58:55  <andythenorth> I would have maybe 5fps, instead of 15
18:58:57  <nielsm> what if I don't want to?
18:59:27  <andythenorth> can't force you
19:04:44  <frosch123> firs still getting forked in 100 years?
19:07:03  <andythenorth> oof
19:07:57  <frosch123> snowplough may be a bit of a gamble
19:08:06  <frosch123> either noone understands the concept
19:08:14  <frosch123> or everything is covered with snow
19:09:23  <frosch123> add a grf parameter "gulf stream"?
19:09:26  <frosch123> yes/no
19:09:52  <nielsm> need to add a new landscape array to indicate snow level on a tile
19:12:11  * andythenorth considers variable speed limit railtypes :P
19:12:24  <andythenorth> with a count of the train types recently using them :P
19:13:16  <frosch123> ask eddi to design a fsm for the rail/snowplough interaction
19:18:40  <andythenorth> did I patch the town rating yet?
19:19:29  <frosch123> did you make a teaser screenshot of the setting for the forums yet?
19:19:47  <frosch123> or did you quit forums?
19:21:34  <andythenorth> not this week
19:21:49  <andythenorth> I did read an old thread that reminded me why I quite sometimes :P
19:22:05  <andythenorth> it's nice that we tolerate such bad behaviour in the official forum :)
19:22:20  <andythenorth> quit / quite /s
19:24:46  <andythenorth> a
19:24:56  <andythenorth> forum so official that most devs won't post or read it :P
19:25:32  <frosch123> the official twitter also says "noone reads this"
19:26:17  <frosch123> for some reason that even seemed to work
19:26:38  <frosch123> there were a lot less replies to tweets after adding that
19:27:59  <andythenorth> so will JGR-only grfs be able to use Bananas?
19:28:03  <frosch123> https://www.reddit.com/r/openttd/comments/dxpjif/openttd_or_simutrans/ <- sometimes i wonder whether my english is as german as that one
19:28:39  <frosch123> bananas2 was meant to support ottd forks
19:28:52  <andythenorth> your English many days would pass for English English
19:29:07  <andythenorth> often better than mine :P
19:29:34  <Eddi|zuHause> in my experience, native english speakers tend to have the worst english across all people in a location
19:29:38  <frosch123> i quit english in school as early as possible
19:30:12  <frosch123> at some point english lessons turned into literature
19:30:16  <Eddi|zuHause> i was always "good" in english at school, but i haven't actually learned anything until i started actually using it after i was out of school
19:31:01  <frosch123> i kind of fell asleep during tests about stuff like "west side story" and used 3 different spellings for "america"
19:31:08  <frosch123> in a short text
19:31:24  <andythenorth> either (1) English is incredibly flexible and native speakers can interpret the gaps
19:31:44  <andythenorth> or (2) native English speakers miscommunicate constantly, which might explain the incredible levels of suppressed rage in England
19:33:04  <frosch123> i only understood the reddit post above, when i noticed the german sentence layout and then translated it back literally
19:34:23  <frosch123> sadly there are no simutrans pros on the ottd reddit
19:37:40  <andythenorth> no
19:37:53  <andythenorth> but it looks like Reddit have switched to JGR
19:38:12  <andythenorth> at what point can we just close all the OpenTTD PRs? :)
19:40:00  <frosch123> there is also "archive project", it's just one click
19:41:34  <LordAro> arbitrary reminder to andythenorth that reddit, or indeed anything on social media, is not a representarive sample of OTTD usage
19:41:49  <andythenorth> nah really?
19:42:02  <LordAro> yah really
19:42:24  <frosch123> what about irc?
19:42:39  <LordAro> especially not irc
19:42:59  <andythenorth> but at some point
19:43:00  <nielsm> I guess there isn't really any usage stats collection of ottd, the closest might be any client stats the master server might collect and I'm not sure it collects anything?
19:43:06  <andythenorth> everybody will have switched anyway :)
19:43:14  <LordAro> nielsm: download stats, probably
19:43:24  <andythenorth> social media also doesn't tell you that everybody *has* switched
19:43:44  <andythenorth> anyway, it will happen
19:43:57  <andythenorth> TTDP -> OpenTTD - > JGR-PP
19:44:20  <LordAro> you have a weird view of things
19:44:26  <Eddi|zuHause> there's no data to back up that claim
19:44:53  <frosch123> andythenorth: i don't consider that bad
19:45:38  <frosch123> jgr is quite skilled when it comes to compatibility
19:46:01  <frosch123> jgrpp savegame compatibility handling is way more advanced than ottd
19:46:44  <LordAro> someone should work out how to backport that at some point
19:47:21  <andythenorth> I think it's fine
19:47:35  <nielsm> yeah it could also make porting savegames between experimental feature branches and later versions with that feature merged possible
19:47:41  <andythenorth> it's really common that people who are being over-run by a new thing don't realise it
19:47:49  <andythenorth> until they look around and realise their thing is dead
19:48:12  <frosch123> yep, recently i had a job interview like that :p
19:48:24  <andythenorth> mercurial -> git
19:48:40  <andythenorth> Perl -> PHP -> Python
19:48:59  <andythenorth> macOS -> inertia :P
19:49:16  <andythenorth> frosch123 people have jobs? :o
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19:51:26  <frosch123> 33% of people have jobs
19:51:48  <frosch123> weirdly low actually
19:51:53  <andythenorth> based on social media stats?
19:51:59  <frosch123> yes
19:52:10  <frosch123> err, no
19:52:14  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i've seen projections that'll drop to about 20% in the medium future
19:52:33  <frosch123> based on social insurance stats
19:52:54  <andythenorth> how many are snowplough drivers?
19:53:29  <frosch123> truck or train based?
19:54:19  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: ai panic?
19:55:12  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i wouldn't call it "panic" just yet
19:55:57  <andythenorth> someone has to feed the AI
19:56:05  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: but we'll see advances like that in the transportation sector (like, truck drivers, taxi drivers, etc.) in the next 10-20 years
19:56:38  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: yeah, but 4% of people work on feeding humans nowadays, whereas it was more like 75% 200 years ago
19:58:30  <andythenorth> I sometimes wonder what the most AI-proof job is
19:59:05  <frosch123> jobs that ducks cannot handle
19:59:41  <frosch123> i like to compare current AIs with 100000 year old ducks :)
20:00:29  <frosch123> they are good at repetitive stuff, but fail when something is slightly off the track
20:00:43  <frosch123> the recent starcraft games were an hillarious example of that
20:01:05  <Eddi|zuHause> <frosch123> they are good at repetitive stuff, but fail when something is slightly off the track <-- i've worked with people like that
20:01:48  <Eddi|zuHause> thing is, in my line of work, there's always something slightly off the track...
20:02:21  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: well, it doesn't count if the "slightly off the track" is caused by other humans :p
20:04:14  <andythenorth> how about plumbing?
20:04:19  <andythenorth> can boston dynamics do that yet?
20:04:22  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: when is anything ever not caused by other humans?
20:04:29  <frosch123> some people have said that some of the ai car accidents, where the humans were at fault, happened because humans expected the driver to behave like a human
20:06:09  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, when AIs too strictly follow the rules
20:06:30  <frosch123> andythenorth: maybe work as food critic?
20:06:38  <andythenorth> nah that's just chemistry?
20:06:46  <andythenorth> or image analysis
20:06:52  <andythenorth> chef?
20:07:36  <frosch123> at least there won't be time machines
20:07:42  <Eddi|zuHause> i have a friend who says he can spot undercover police cars, on account of them driving like no normal human would drive
20:07:55  <andythenorth> how accurate is he?
20:08:36  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: machines are terrible at chemistry, on account of how poor our sensors are compared to the human (or animal) nose
20:10:26  <frosch123> yeah, the most popular browser extenstion of the futrue will be the "nosmell" extension at blocks the odor-media-channel
20:12:07  <frosch123> it will be invented shortly after scam adds heavily focused on using that feature
20:23:06  <andythenorth> 20 bags of mail in a snowplough then?
20:23:34  <frosch123> refittable to beer?
20:24:01  <andythenorth> yes
20:24:03  <andythenorth> 10t of beer
20:24:06  <andythenorth> express cargos
20:24:21  <andythenorth> stupid things are fun to draw
20:24:27  <frosch123> silly grfs would probably make it a single vehicle with 4 pax, and not accept attaching wagons
20:24:31  <Eddi|zuHause> well, you could technically use alcohol to unfreeze the snow
20:24:55  <frosch123> refittable to salt and sand?
20:25:23  <frosch123> unfortunately it's empty on arrival
20:27:25  <andythenorth> we never did implement cargo wastage
20:27:30  <andythenorth> or robbery
20:27:44  <frosch123> train robbery accident?
20:27:48  <andythenorth> yes
20:27:56  <frosch123> we never added more disasters :p
20:27:56  <andythenorth> Railroad Tycoon reference :P
20:29:20  <andythenorth> haha
20:29:23  <andythenorth> I had a pony
20:29:35  <andythenorth> variable cargo payment rate, cb on the vehicle
20:29:44  <andythenorth> but maybe it should be 'wastage' instead :P
20:29:51  <andythenorth> so passengers actually die in third class
20:29:56  <andythenorth> this is very poor taste
20:30:22  <andythenorth> but it would give a reason to have luxury / anti-luxury vehicles :P
20:30:42  <frosch123> reduce cargo by 1% when crossing low bridges?
20:31:13  <frosch123> *under
20:34:20  <andythenorth> so many possibilities
20:34:27  <andythenorth> we have to stay ahead of JGR somehow no?
20:35:04  <frosch123> add a pay wall for the osx binary?
20:35:31  <andythenorth> I don't think we can justifiably charge for it :P
20:35:38  <andythenorth> paywall for playable FPS? :)
20:49:40  <frosch123> i think factorio is also on their 3rd or 4th osx dev
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20:50:59  <frosch123> also, should we visit V's talk at some gamedev conference and ask troll questions about yetis?
20:51:34  <andythenorth> it has an appeal
20:54:14  <frosch123> hmm, 1000 visitors... it's kind of bigger than i though
20:55:27  <andythenorth> to bananas? o_O
20:55:54  <frosch123> http://www.gdsession.com/
21:01:20  <andythenorth> hmm nobody ever looks like I expect :
21:01:21  <andythenorth> :P
21:01:50  <frosch123> not sluggish enough?
21:02:58  <frosch123> the factorio party 2 years ago was kind of funny
21:03:14  <andythenorth> I do in fact look like this https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/675934870/twitter_pic_400x400.jpg
21:03:24  <frosch123> most factorio employees are progammers and introverts
21:03:39  <frosch123> V was the only extrovert, and kind of ran the show :p
21:04:08  <frosch123> andythenorth: i know, you had some encounters with copy machines
21:07:52  <frosch123> i also remember some guillotine swinging from the ceiling
21:09:13  <frosch123> hmm, kind of similar to asdf movies. standard brittish?
21:14:28  <andythenorth> not sure where asdf is from
21:15:05  <frosch123> he is brittish, i saw a live talk last year (not live)
21:15:29  <frosch123> he doodled some sketches at some brittish convention
21:16:26  <frosch123> can you locate people by accent?
21:16:52  <andythenorth> somewhat
21:16:59  <andythenorth> if it's an obvious accent
21:17:23  <andythenorth> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TomSka
21:17:38  <frosch123> oh, so easy :p
21:19:04  <andythenorth> did I do nuclear fuel in FIRS? :P https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ulf_Stahmer/publication/281648832/figure/fig3/AS:650467109515279@1532094852995/Trains-carrying-used-nuclear-fuel-en-route-to-Sellafield-Source-Direct-Rail-Services.png
21:21:36  <frosch123> new disaster: protesters blocking the track
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21:25:35  <andythenorth> maybe if electricity did something...
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21:33:06  <andythenorth> how many snowplough generations? :P
21:33:13  <andythenorth> seems like 1 might be adequate :P
21:33:18  <andythenorth> possibly even too many
21:34:25  <FLHerne> andythenorth: FWIW, as an intermittent reddit/openttd person, you're wrong
21:34:31  <FLHerne> (:P)
21:34:34  <andythenorth> ?
21:35:27  <FLHerne> r/openttd runs three servers - S1/S3 are stable upstream with/without grfs, S2 is patchpack
21:35:45  <FLHerne> It used to be a custom, Reddit-specific patchpack
21:36:39  <FLHerne> But no-one was maintaining it, so now it's JGRPP
21:36:47  <frosch123> no reddit client anymore?
21:37:02  <FLHerne> By far the busiest server is still S1, the upstream 1.9.3 one
21:38:00  <FLHerne> Oh, hang on, it still is the custom client
21:38:09  <FLHerne> So now I just have no idea what you meant...
21:39:11  <andythenorth> I read the subreddit
21:39:12  <FLHerne> Posts by individual users?
21:39:15  <andythenorth> I don't use the servers
21:39:16  <andythenorth> yes posts
21:39:30  <andythenorth> JGR is at tipping point
21:39:35  <andythenorth> forums are already switched
21:39:39  <andythenorth> reddit is switching
21:39:40  <FLHerne> I don't think JGRPP has dramatically increased the actual share of patchpack usage, just unified it
21:40:10  <FLHerne> There used to be ChillCore's, SpringPP and a whole bunch of smaller ones
21:40:56  <FLHerne> But JGR's is the first one to be unambiguously superior to any other available :P
21:41:06  <FLHerne> SpringPP savegame compat helps to
21:41:35  <FLHerne> Remember, the people who bother posting on forums are the hardcore obsessive lot
21:42:35  <FLHerne> By that logic, car manufacturers might as well give up making econoboxes, because everyone on r/cars is driving hot hatches and 2-seaters
21:43:09  <FLHerne> *too
21:43:38  <andythenorth> it's about discovery and recommendation
21:43:45  <andythenorth> the prevailing recommendation is now JGRPP
21:44:00  <andythenorth> and all posts in the public channels reinforce that
21:44:05  <andythenorth> it's fine
21:44:14  <andythenorth> players get what they want
21:44:20  <andythenorth> I'm +1 to JGR
21:44:28  <FLHerne> That's still not new
21:44:45  <FLHerne> When trunk didn't have cargodist, that was the ubiquitous recommendation
21:46:02  <FLHerne> There's no /point/ recommending upstream, because everyone knows it's there
21:46:35  <FLHerne> I'm a fan of JGRPP too, I have some big savegames using it
21:48:00  <andythenorth> I don't recall a period where most of forum activity was a PP thread
21:48:04  <andythenorth> whereas JGR is most of forum now
21:48:17  <andythenorth> I've been around since....what 2008?
21:48:27  <andythenorth> 2007
21:50:40  <FLHerne> I think my first OTTD version was 0.6.3, whenever that was
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21:51:15  <frosch123> autumn 2008
21:51:22  <FLHerne> 2008, but this was on Debian, so probably a year later :P
21:53:17  <FLHerne> Hm, forum account is 2011, but I think I must have been reading it anonymously before that
21:53:54  <andythenorth> anyway, JGR is a useful safety valve for ever more detailed and broken timetable patches
21:53:58  <FLHerne> > I'm planning to run OTTD on my PowerBook 1400, it's compiling at the moment. The problem is that with only 64MB of RAM and a 133MHz CPU, performance is likely to be an issue.
21:54:06  <FLHerne> Haha, I'd forgotten that
21:54:11  <FLHerne> It actually worked, too!
21:54:12  <Eddi|zuHause> "<frosch123> can you locate people by accent?" <-- i think that was the plot of My Fair Lady :p
21:54:13  <andythenorth> wow
21:54:26  <andythenorth> also has anyone tried daylength in JGR?
21:54:36  <andythenorth> I'm curious what it looks like with the trains moving really slowly?
21:55:04  <FLHerne> (on Debian Etch with an extremely unstable custom kernel, with a 'bootloader' that worked by booting MacOS and then overwriting the OS's memory...)
21:55:14  <frosch123> i am quite sure the trains do not change their speed
21:55:24  <FLHerne> andythenorth: It doesn't work that way
21:56:18  <FLHerne> Motion per tick is unchanged, ticks per day change
21:56:51  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: no daylength patch ever slowed down trains
21:57:15  <FLHerne> I /think/ JGR has the version where town-cargo production is kept constant per-tick rather than being scaled with daylength
21:59:48  <FLHerne> (yes, and it has a separate setting for that)
21:59:50  <andythenorth> I think I misunderstood something in a thread
22:05:00  <andythenorth> so why don't we merge it?
22:05:46  <frosch123> for the same reasons why ottd cannot  fix the conversion between mph and km/h
22:06:13  <frosch123> daylenth changes the conversion between stuff/tick and stuff/day
22:06:15  <andythenorth> raisins?
22:06:22  <frosch123> and you never know what newgrf intended
22:07:04  <frosch123> FLHerne said there is a setting in jgrpp, to change how the built-in stuff scales
22:07:13  <andythenorth> it's reported to just work https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=44177&start=1560#p1226802
22:07:18  <frosch123> maybe newgrf can read that
22:07:51  <FLHerne> frosch123: There's a separate multiplier for town-cargo generation
22:08:04  <frosch123> what about industry generation?
22:08:08  <FLHerne> I'm not sure how it deals with newgrf industry production
22:08:18  <FLHerne> Hm
22:08:28  <andythenorth> it seems that we need to accomodate it in grf
22:08:39  <FLHerne> I think the rate per tick is the same, and the "<n> per month" thing is just wrong
22:08:43  <andythenorth> can we not just scale the production?
22:08:48  <frosch123> andythenorth: let's say, i am quite sure ecs hard conflicts with daylength :)
22:09:12  <andythenorth> fair enough :)
22:09:18  <frosch123> though for firs: i would expect the supply cargo mechanics should be off
22:09:32  <andythenorth> oh yeah, supplies will be broken fairly certain
22:09:39  <andythenorth> but just add another parameter for that?
22:09:42  <andythenorth> let player configure all?
22:09:52  <andythenorth> maybe we just turn newgrf developer tools on by default?
22:10:09  <andythenorth> how about a game setting for how many times production cb runs per month?
22:10:15  <frosch123> andythenorth: that post says it all
22:10:30  <andythenorth> it just works, as long as the newgrf is rewritten
22:10:34  <frosch123> there are several known issues, but they do not matter to those who use daylength
22:10:43  <andythenorth> and the major benefit of daylength is that it reduces cargo production
22:10:49  <andythenorth> except when it isn't
22:10:57  <andythenorth> I read a thread about it :P
22:11:09  <andythenorth> "what's daylength for" cannot resolve to a single answer
22:11:27  <andythenorth> scaling production is the exact opposite of what some players want
22:11:35  <andythenorth> they're using daylength to cut down transport amounts
22:11:56  <andythenorth> all of this bothers me somehow
22:12:05  <andythenorth> I don't see the lolz in it :D
22:12:24  <frosch123> why do you care? do you get firs-reports with jgrpp savegames?
22:12:58  <andythenorth> not yet
22:14:18  <frosch123> do you get bug reports with savegames at all?
22:14:20  <andythenorth> no
22:14:53  <frosch123> anyway, you can't solve firs with adding some multipliers
22:15:25  <frosch123> a month is still longer with daylength
22:15:28  <andythenorth> the main problem I have is that there's nothing to design against
22:15:44  <frosch123> techncially supplies work in ticks, but the wording is so hard in that case
22:15:49  <andythenorth> with daylength should supplies be needed more often, or less?
22:15:57  <andythenorth> it's completely puzzling what the point of the game is
22:16:33  <frosch123> with daylength you would require supplies more often, no whole months but every odd number of days
22:16:58  <andythenorth> but if the goal is to transport less frequently?
22:17:07  <frosch123> essentially you need to replace std::system_clock with std::steady_clock :p
22:17:38  <frosch123> andythenorth: then make the wagons bigger/trains longer?
22:17:47  <andythenorth> no the players want smaller ones
22:17:49  <andythenorth> I wonder if pikka's solution will be enough to fix the issue
22:17:58  <frosch123> the goal of daylength is time progression not cargo scaling
22:18:21  <frosch123> well, i would file those players under abusing daylength
22:18:42  <frosch123> they use every observable behaviour of daylength, not the indended one
22:18:46  <andythenorth> this is what puzzles me
22:18:53  <andythenorth> why don't they just make newgrfs?
22:19:00  <andythenorth> maybe I am being dense :P
22:19:31  <andythenorth> can GS reset the year? :P
22:20:04  <frosch123> let them figure it out themself :) yet another firs fork, forking from the generated nml
22:20:10  * andythenorth ponders a GS that just resets the date every other cycle
22:20:40  <andythenorth> well putting aside my confusion, I do actually want to put intro date scaling into my vehicle grfs
22:20:56  <andythenorth> but the desires of players are so murky that I can't figure out the design
22:21:08  <andythenorth> and Eddi|zuHause said I shouldn't, and we should implement daylength properly :P
22:21:15  <frosch123> one parameter per generation?
22:21:22  <andythenorth> base date?
22:21:38  <andythenorth> hmm, but I have rosters, with different base generations
22:21:44  <frosch123> i think i made something similar with V
22:21:58  <andythenorth> I could fork the grf for each roster
22:22:01  <FLHerne> andythenorth: I think daylength is almost universally for 'realism'
22:22:18  <frosch123> andythenorth: the idea was to set date for "steam age", "diesel age", "electric age"
22:22:20  <FLHerne> So in-grf intro scaling doesn't help
22:22:27  <frosch123> and lineary scale all intro dates inbetween
22:22:39  <FLHerne> The cargo-production side-effect was mostly a happy accident, I think
22:22:55  <frosch123> so the realtive introduction of the rosters would still be the same
22:22:55  <andythenorth> I did ask what daylength is for https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=76875&p=1190807&hilit=daylength+suggestions#p1190807
22:23:02  <andythenorth> the answers are non-conclusive
22:23:07  <FLHerne> And at the current version mostly avoids doing it in favour of creating different bugs :P
22:23:08  <frosch123> just some engines are top-notch for 50 years instead of 20
22:24:22  <andythenorth> hmm
22:24:31  <andythenorth> maybe Horse should be split up
22:27:04  <andythenorth> then it could scale the intro dates
22:27:20  <andythenorth> or I could just do a single multiplier property, that might work
22:27:28  <andythenorth> I could call it daylength? o_O
22:31:31  <frosch123> good idea, just add a setting "daylength" to all your grfs
22:31:40  <frosch123> and add some random behaviour to it
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22:32:41  <andythenorth> oo
22:32:51  <andythenorth> randomised model expiry? o_O
22:33:06  <andythenorth> maybe bits of the tech tree are missing?
22:33:23  <andythenorth> randomised reliability decay?
22:33:35  <andythenorth> does reliability even work with daylength?
22:34:17  <frosch123> depends what people expect :)
22:36:55  * andythenorth wonders what would happen if we just did sandbox mode
22:37:01  <andythenorth> and hid the clock
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22:38:32  <andythenorth> actually I think that's what bothers me
22:39:24  <andythenorth> sometimes non-existent sandbox mode tries to poke out
22:39:44  <andythenorth> and then it runs up against the creaky gameplay 'balance'
22:39:55  <andythenorth> maybe there should just be timeless sandbox
22:40:36  <andythenorth> town restrictions off, vehicles all on never expire, game date set to max and hidden
22:41:05  <nielsm> no money?
22:41:18  <andythenorth> not sure
22:41:21  <andythenorth> it's an idea though
22:41:51  <andythenorth> I remember what frosch123 said about random useless newgrf ideas, that sometimes become a pattern, that can become an actual spec
22:42:13  <andythenorth> hmm Muppets play NIN 'Closer', not safe for work https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7c28KhPEpo
22:42:32  <nielsm> well, late and stuff, gnight
22:42:52  <andythenorth> bye
22:43:37  <frosch123> hmm, belugas heard nin as well... i never heard about them outside this channel
22:45:13  <andythenorth> I probably lived in a bubble where everyone liked NIN :)
22:45:20  <andythenorth> and the Aphex Twin
22:45:34  <andythenorth> Sandbox mode for OpenTTD 2.0 then :P
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22:52:33  <frosch123> so a 10 year old video suddently becomes viral?
22:53:18  <frosch123> on a channel that has not been active for 9 years
22:54:29  <frosch123> probably russian hackers
22:55:28  <andythenorth> or algorithms
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23:15:20  <andythenorth> so bedtime :P
23:15:21  *** andythenorth has left #openttd
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23:38:11  <Samu> who can look at this https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/7822
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