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Log for #openttd on 20th November 2019:
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00:04:10  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 opened pull request #7841: Revert #7837, 7e22f243e: OpenTTD tries to replicate the original game mechanics. https://git.io/JeKjr
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01:08:00  <supermop_work_> well here i am still at work
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01:20:18  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on issue #7839: [Suggestion] Addition of cargo icons in the corporate Industries window and all own windows of industries https://git.io/JeKsc
01:30:48  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] glx22 opened pull request #61: Add: debug_print for GRF parameters https://git.io/Je6vZ
01:33:24  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 approved pull request #7841: Revert #7837, 7e22f243e: OpenTTD tries to replicate the original game mechanics. https://git.io/Je6vl
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07:18:23  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on issue #7839: [Suggestion] Addition of cargo icons in the corporate Industries window and all own windows of industries https://git.io/JeKsc
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08:01:40  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro merged pull request #7841: Revert #7837, 7e22f243e: OpenTTD tries to replicate the original game mechanics. https://git.io/JeKjr
08:02:47  <andythenorth> on that front
08:03:07  * andythenorth wonders about fixing the broken original game mechanics :P
08:03:22  <andythenorth> if only there was some abstraction layer to do that, without changing the C++
08:03:44  <LordAro> which ones? there are so many
08:04:15  <andythenorth> industry closure
08:04:22  <andythenorth> town restrictions
08:04:28  <andythenorth> base vehicles not refitting
08:04:30  <andythenorth> lack of trams
08:04:31  <andythenorth> no AI
08:04:46  <andythenorth> airport limits
08:05:16  <andythenorth> it was inspired by this https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=86324
08:05:41  <andythenorth> which led me to https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=735659#p735659
08:06:19  <andythenorth> 10 years of the same problem, and for whatever reason, the game doesn't guide people to the DLC that fixes this stuff
08:07:28  <LordAro> sounds like you're suggesting that ogfx+ be bundled with the game
08:11:36  <andythenorth> kinda
08:11:38  <andythenorth> or easier to find
08:11:39  <andythenorth> or something
08:11:57  <andythenorth> I also was thinking separately about sandbox mode
08:12:08  <andythenorth> equivalent of creative vs. survival in Minecraft
08:12:28  <andythenorth> wondering if this can all be bundled into some kind of 'choose a config'
08:13:41  <andythenorth> 'Original', 'Competitive updated (New Coke mode)', 'Sandbox'
08:14:04  <andythenorth> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Coke :P
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09:17:02  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eric-01 commented on issue #7839: [Suggestion] Addition of cargo icons in the corporate Industries window and all own windows of industries https://git.io/JeKsc
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09:37:06  <andythenorth> supermop_work: what TZ are you in now anyway? :P
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14:11:21  <supermop_work_> andythenorth: eastern standard
14:20:52  <andythenorth> up early
14:23:30  <peter1138> Did it lunch time yet?
14:23:34  <peter1138> I hope so because I had my... salad...
14:30:05  <andythenorth> I had some toast
14:30:08  <andythenorth> and cookies
14:30:11  <andythenorth> no salad though :(
14:31:05  <peter1138> No macaroni cheese?
14:31:37  <peter1138> I "pigged out" and had a peperami too. And a plum. And a mini cinnamon bite thing. Yeah, normal amount of food really.
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14:53:11  <Arveen2> spinach cannelloni reporting in
15:03:53  <peter1138> Yum.
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16:26:46  <Samu> hi
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16:46:06  <andythenorth> yo
16:46:15  <andythenorth> so what what eh? :)
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17:49:06  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne opened pull request #62: Mechanical cleanups https://git.io/Je6WP
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18:24:21  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] andythenorth commented on pull request #62: Mechanical cleanups https://git.io/Je6l0
18:24:26  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] andythenorth merged pull request #62: Mechanical cleanups https://git.io/Je6WP
18:25:03  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Ta
18:25:06  <andythenorth> so anyone written the November blog post?
18:25:26  <andythenorth> FLHerne: nah thanks to you, nml was suffering from lack of attention
18:25:37  <andythenorth> it's good to see housekeeping commits
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18:45:47  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master https://git.io/Je6lj
18:45:47  <DorpsGek_III>   - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
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19:39:51  <andythenorth> hmm
19:39:59  <andythenorth> what to do next? :D
19:40:15  <Wolf01> Tanks
19:42:23  <andythenorth> done that
19:42:33  <andythenorth> 44% WR today, despite getting unicum stats
19:42:37  <andythenorth> bored of tanks
19:42:49  <andythenorth> another vote for vehicle livery options btw :P https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=68616&p=1226922#p1226920
19:43:39  <frosch123> make the color depend on the purchase date
19:43:49  <frosch123> then wagons bought at the same time have the same color
19:43:58  <frosch123> while different trains still have different colour
19:44:06  <frosch123> or, use the random bits of the engine
19:44:34  <frosch123> but then the color changes when rearranging trains
19:44:44  <Eddi|zuHause> iirc DBSet had a parameter for "use the same random bits for all wagons" or "randomize each wagon individually"
19:45:22  <Wolf01> I still think you should 1) bind a stat to a colour -or- 2) bind the colour to the reliability, so more dirty = less realiability
19:45:29  <andythenorth> oh I could do a parameter trivially
19:45:33  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: still about 8 months until 19-19-19
19:45:38  <andythenorth> I'm just not interested in parameters
19:45:50  <andythenorth> they're bad for QA and they cement the code
19:46:01  <Wolf01> frosch123: wtf?
19:46:31  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: that's a running gag
19:46:46  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: because the last dbset release was on 05-05-05
19:47:02  <Wolf01> Ha
19:47:03  <Eddi|zuHause> iirc we started with a projected release date for 0.9 on 10-10-10
19:47:05  <frosch123> andythenorth: yesterday you welcomed parameters :p https://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=136830
19:47:12  <Eddi|zuHause> and incremented that every time the date passed :p
19:48:09  <frosch123> so, next year is 10th aniversary of 10-10-10 ?
19:48:21  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: of course, andy sometimes flips on decisions like that twice in a day :p
19:48:22  <andythenorth> I welcome parameters in other people's code :P
19:48:47  <andythenorth> I am -1 for code I have to test
19:49:40  <andythenorth> also many things which are very slightly connected
19:49:42  <andythenorth> sandbox mode
19:50:02  <andythenorth> augmenting the out-of-the-box game with some default grfs
19:50:09  <andythenorth> 'fixing' industry closure :P
19:50:28  <andythenorth> and a specific question
19:50:42  <frosch123> i still don't get why closure is such a big deal...
19:50:43  <andythenorth> is there any reason we couldn't replace the industries with a base newgrf?
19:51:14  <andythenorth> I think closure just ruined a game for me in 1994 and I never forgot since :P
19:51:17  <frosch123> i think it happened like twice to me, in i-dont-know-how-many-games
19:51:57  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i found evidence for a 11-11-11
19:52:32  <frosch123> oh, at some point i made it a challenge to reanimate industries that were down to like 32/month
19:53:06  <frosch123> pushing service to >90% for best odds
19:53:26  <andythenorth> I had forgotten the non-supplies mechanic :)
19:53:52  <andythenorth> far down my to-do list: parameter option to combine supplies with default transported mechanice :P
19:55:02  <andythenorth> unrelated: if the solution to daylength is removing dates, does that apply automatically in sandbox mode?
19:55:09  <andythenorth> or is it a separate setting?
19:55:50  <frosch123> anyway, what about: 1) hard code ogfx+ download into ottd, 2) make a simple gui to select between "original gameplay", "modern gameplay (ogfx+)" and "custom" (today's newgrf gui). 3) append newgrf settings to the general settings tree
19:56:38  <frosch123> essentially reversing the "configure newgrf and safe/load as preset" into "select preset or create new one"
19:56:48  <andythenorth> yes
19:56:49  <andythenorth> that
19:56:59  <Eddi|zuHause> how much of this came true? http://www.tt-ms.de/forum/showthread.php?tid=1284&pid=77442#pid77442
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19:57:18  <andythenorth> my German is awesome, but not that awesome
19:57:32  <andythenorth> if you want to find the Rathaus, and it's down the first street on the left, I can help
19:57:37  <andythenorth> but otherwise not
19:57:56  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it's a list of projects that need to be finished, and a snark at not using bananas
19:58:52  <Eddi|zuHause> (and the next half dozen replies are about that last bit)
19:59:19  <andythenorth> oof I think you could apply all this to me :P http://www.tt-ms.de/forum/showthread.php?tid=1284&pid=77442#pid77442
19:59:29  <andythenorth> do you know the reason that DB Set is not finished?
19:59:31  <frosch123> hmm, we never partied 10 years of bananas
20:00:32  <frosch123> andythenorth: the reviews for duke nukem forever were terrible
20:00:36  <Eddi|zuHause> this one is great :p http://www.tt-ms.de/forum/showthread.php?tid=1284&pid=78142#pid78142
20:00:45  <andythenorth> the reason it's not finished is....I AM MB!
20:00:51  <andythenorth> it's like Fight Club
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20:04:05  <Eddi|zuHause> so, i haven't found any clues to a 10-10-10
20:05:47  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: your first link goes to page 62 of 110 :p
20:06:00  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
20:06:18  <frosch123> did any development happen after that? or are there 50 pages about the release date?
20:06:32  <Eddi|zuHause> there definitely was
20:10:08  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: around 2014 we had some private conversations about technical details of longer wagons (like avoiding most glitches)
20:10:23  <Eddi|zuHause> and there were some vehicle additions
20:11:40  <Eddi|zuHause> and think the standard-railtype-scheme stuff might have spilt over into that topic as well
20:12:48  <frosch123> what? does that mean all the DBxx labels are not used? https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/RailtypeLabels
20:19:19  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, i don't think so
20:20:09  <andythenorth> oh dear Eddi|zuHause is a daylength user :( http://www.tt-ms.de/forum/showthread.php?tid=1284&pid=80133#pid80133
20:20:29  <andythenorth> that might be the most shocking Eddi|zuHause revelation so far
20:20:47  <frosch123> uhm, Eddi|zuHause, wouldn't it be better if andy played tanks again, instead of reading tt-ms?
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20:21:05  <andythenorth> I should be drawing a fish farm
20:21:14  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: how is that news?
20:21:21  <andythenorth> it's shocking to me
20:21:28  <andythenorth> I didn't know you even played OpenTTD :O
20:21:37  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm also using "daylength" in transport fever
20:21:49  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: have you looked on those dates?
20:21:58  <andythenorth> 11.11.11?
20:22:23  <Eddi|zuHause> "17. Mai 2011" <-- that was probably one of the last times i actually played the game
20:22:42  <andythenorth> hjmm
20:22:57  <andythenorth> I wonder how distorted my view of OpenTTD is compared to most players
20:23:16  <andythenorth> probably pretty far along the curve
20:23:50  <frosch123> just imagine how distorted it would be if you used daylength?
20:25:43  <andythenorth> I rely on empathy to design things (UI, products) for lots of people who are not really like me
20:25:56  <andythenorth> but I can't see any way to empathise with desire for daylength :P
20:27:10  <andythenorth> case 1: "I want vehicle models to be around for longer"
20:27:20  <andythenorth> - simply adjust all the dates in your newgrfs and recompile
20:27:30  <andythenorth> case 2: "I want a lot less cargo to transport"
20:27:31  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i heard transport fever 2 gets a "stoped date" mode, where all the usual simulation stuff (like maintenance costs) runs further, but the technological date stays the same
20:27:41  <andythenorth> - simply recompile your industry grf with new values
20:27:53  <andythenorth> case 3: "I want vehicles to take much longer to travel x distance"
20:27:56  <andythenorth> - wtf? why?
20:28:26  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: groundhog day mode?  "It's always 1963" ?
20:28:34  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, something like that
20:29:15  <andythenorth> hmm
20:29:26  <andythenorth> I guess most people don't have the 'take things apart and look inside' mentality I have :P
20:29:55  <andythenorth> and the content APIs are pitched at exactly the level of programming I have done for all my life
20:29:57  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the problem is, that you don't always have access to good methods to edit all those things yourself
20:30:21  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: especially if your aim is at some large conglomerate from various authors that must all fit together
20:30:35  <andythenorth> yeah
20:30:43  <andythenorth> that various authors thing :P
20:30:46  <andythenorth> I abandoned that
20:34:47  <andythenorth> what if newgrfs could be modified in place?
20:34:54  <andythenorth> and that could be saved in a config?
20:35:08  <andythenorth> monkey patch
20:35:14  <frosch123> nah, that requires testing
20:36:21  <andythenorth> hmm
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20:37:22  <frosch123> i am confused, who is trolling who?
20:37:32  <andythenorth> I no longer know
20:38:31  <frosch123> grf parameters require qa and cement the code or something
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20:40:29  <andythenorth> I was thinking we could actually monkey patch
20:40:46  <andythenorth> just turn 'newgrf debug' into an editor
20:40:53  <andythenorth> then save the values in the savegame
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20:51:35  <andythenorth> there could be a UI before the game starts
20:51:41  <andythenorth> showing all defined newgrf items
20:51:47  <andythenorth> and their props
20:52:13  <andythenorth> eh callbacks might be harder :(
21:15:07  <Eddi|zuHause> i thought newgrfs are already monkey patching?
21:24:45  <andythenorth> monkey patch the monkeys
21:28:06  <frosch123> just so i got this right: you can use the monkey upload service ape to upload monkey patches to bananas?
21:28:49  <andythenorth> maybe
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21:59:50  <frosch123> [brexit trigger] https://twitter.com/MarcherLord1/status/1193259681256558592 <- Eddi|zuHause: is that tweet as funny to you as it is to me? :p
22:00:32  <Eddi|zuHause> "They did just fine" <- which history class has he skipped?
22:01:59  <frosch123> yep, while many replies point to wrong statements, none get to that point :p
22:02:09  <Eddi|zuHause> if "The economy completely collapsed and still hasn't recovered after 30 years" is their vision of a successful brexit...
22:05:24  <andythenorth> I am not looking
22:05:35  <andythenorth> I don't really get brexit triggered :P
22:05:36  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: that conan gif is summing up my initial reaction about right
22:05:40  <andythenorth> but twitter :P
22:06:30  <glx> it's a safe tweet
22:07:09  <frosch123> andythenorth: usually i only encounter the tweets of german fascists , brexit tweets are similar but refreshing
22:08:44  <Eddi|zuHause> ... i don't know where you get your tweets from. but the way bubbles work is usually "look at how ridiculous the people on the other side are", and then the most extreme version of the opposing viewpoint possible
22:10:51  <andythenorth> is it bedtime?
22:13:01  <Eddi|zuHause> it should probably be, if i were normal...
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22:15:09  <andythenorth> fish farm? https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/9535/fish_farm_1.png
22:19:06  <frosch123> interesting, so in addition to "ports should not be in lakes, only at sea", you get "fish farms should not be at sea, only in lakes"
22:19:40  <andythenorth> perhaps
22:19:49  <andythenorth> I use 'newgame' a lot until I get what I want :P
22:19:58  <andythenorth> norway has little houses for fish farms https://www.123rf.com/photo_65604452_norwegian-fish-farm-for-salmon-growing-in-natural-environment-sea-fjord-in-trondheim-region-norway.html
22:20:07  <Eddi|zuHause> why is that corner broken like this?
22:20:17  <andythenorth> I was going to put a building on the coast :P
22:20:23  <andythenorth> but I might put it on a sea tile instead
22:20:57  <andythenorth> hmm ports not in lakes
22:20:58  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: between the water and the grass you can see uninitialised memory
22:21:03  <andythenorth> how long can I tile search for?
22:21:08  <frosch123> maybe you can find a password there
22:21:14  <Eddi|zuHause> just make a check "shore in X distance", doesn't have to be lake
22:21:30  <andythenorth> for fish farms yes
22:21:40  <andythenorth> ports are a different challenge :P
22:21:58  <andythenorth> what's max varaction 2 chain length? :P
22:22:29  <Eddi|zuHause> unlimited, if you reuse the same ID :p
22:22:41  <Eddi|zuHause> (so no branches)
22:23:39  <Eddi|zuHause> but you don't actually have to check all the tiles, to be reasonably sure you're in a large body of water
22:24:07  <andythenorth> maybe we could let newgrf run a pathfinder :P
22:24:51  <Eddi|zuHause> pathfind to (0,0), allowing only water and void tiles?
22:25:47  <andythenorth> o_O
22:25:55  <andythenorth> yes
22:26:09  <andythenorth> all it needs is a bool result
22:26:31  <andythenorth> I imagine on larger maps this is completely untenable for performance :P
22:27:23  <Eddi|zuHause> only if there are no suitible locations
22:27:49  <andythenorth> isn't pathfinding arbitrary tiles incredibly slow?
22:28:14  <Eddi|zuHause> a few dozen pathfinder runs are not important, but if it fails the first few, industry generation is cranked up to a few thousand attempts
22:28:56  <andythenorth> what do K-D trees do again? :P
22:29:02  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: no, what's slow (e.g. for ships) is that it's called repeatedly, very often
22:29:04  <frosch123> andythenorth: ships have to consider their orientation (12 per tile), you don't need that, so you are 12 times faster than a single ship
22:30:07  * andythenorth wonders about 'just' caching the result 
22:30:16  <andythenorth> and allowing the cache might occasionally be outdated
22:30:34  <andythenorth> water tiles don't change very frequently in a game
22:30:44  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that's very pointless
22:30:49  <andythenorth> ok
22:30:49  <Eddi|zuHause> probably
22:32:01  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the only time where a cache would even do anything is during map generation... otherwise it's just a single run on user interaction
22:32:21  <Eddi|zuHause> that's not going to be performance relevant
22:32:56  <andythenorth> I was proposing the cache is at game start, and is just a list of valid tiles
22:33:20  <andythenorth> it's not a good idea
22:33:28  <andythenorth> this is a marginal feature already :P
22:34:12  <andythenorth> getting a nice map with no trapped ports usually only takes 20-30 attempts
22:34:55  <frosch123> when your opponent services a port, can you wall it in with landscaping, and it will close down?
22:35:31  <andythenorth> I suspect....not
22:35:41  <andythenorth> unless you would like to fork FIRS
22:36:00  <frosch123> can i make it a setting?
22:36:25  <andythenorth> in your fork yes
22:36:40  <andythenorth> when do FIRS forks get into double digits?
22:36:48  <andythenorth> I am aware of at least 5
22:37:12  <frosch123> they all fork the generated nml
22:38:12  <andythenorth> does that count?
22:38:17  <frosch123> did they ask stallman what to do when something is "generated" for some and "preferred form for editign" for others?
22:38:57  <frosch123> maybe "bed" wasn't such a bad idea
22:39:39  <andythenorth> I started playing OpenTTD :P
22:40:08  <andythenorth> did Eddi|zuHause finish his town layout improvements yet?
22:40:16  <andythenorth> it's taking nearly as long as DB Set XL
22:40:19  <Eddi|zuHause> no?
22:40:27  <Eddi|zuHause> i never finish anything, ever.
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22:45:13  <frosch123> you missed an opportunity to not finish that senten
22:46:16  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Case 1 isn't solved by changing grf dates if you want 'realism'
22:46:40  <andythenorth> it is for me
22:46:51  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Which is why most people want to have slower vehicle progression in the first place, so they can actually get around to using all the random vehicles
22:47:07  <andythenorth> actually no, I've spent far too long making Horse dates 'nearly realistic' :P
22:47:15  <andythenorth> even though the trains are 'mostly fake'
22:48:00  <FLHerne> andythenorth: For me, the whole point of daylength is that I can use UKRS2+'s weird 1st-gen diesels for more than an hour or two before scrapping them all :P
22:48:11  <andythenorth> I played a daylength patch once
22:48:18  <andythenorth> it simply reset the date 50% of the time
22:48:36  <FLHerne> I agree, case 2 is orthogonal to daylength and tying together is silly
22:48:43  <andythenorth> it was a couple of lines, I'm sure Eddi|zuHause gave me the patch :P
22:48:54  <FLHerne> Yeah, that's basically what I want
22:49:14  <andythenorth> hmm, new game
22:49:20  <andythenorth> will I ever use this silly snowplough?
22:49:25  <FLHerne> And I don't think case 3 has ever been requested or implemented by anyone?
22:49:34  <FLHerne> Well, there's always one
22:49:47  <FLHerne> But it's not a thing
22:49:58  <andythenorth> there was one in the forums
22:50:11  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: no, that was not by me
22:51:12  <FLHerne> Really? Why?!
22:51:25  <FLHerne> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nTSubYzQOM is rather impressive
22:51:48  <FLHerne>  [Wednesday, 20 November 2019] [12:54:26 GMT]<FLHerne> Are we betting on whether Mk1 blows up before it even flies?
22:51:54  <FLHerne> ^ called it, too :D
22:52:44  <andythenorth> sandbox mode needs to allow me to demolish town bridges :P
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23:19:36  <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: "nice tin can you have there. would be a shame if something happened to it"
23:20:36  <FLHerne> I mean, the big hammer used in the assembly process made me a bit skeptical https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EJws0uDWkAID8k4.jpg:orig
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