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Log for #openttd on 27th November 2019:
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11:14:20  <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: afaict, it's just NML internals
11:14:38  <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: NFO would be fine with multiple tables
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12:57:27  <peter1138> Is it lunch time?
13:01:23  <Eddi|zuHause> who knows anymore...
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13:48:08  <Arveen> somewhere it's always lunch time
13:53:39  <peter1138> Yeah. I had half my salad today. It was big even for me.
13:53:54  <peter1138> And then I ate some crisps which I don't normally do. Pretty dumb.
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15:44:41  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on pull request #7747: Feature: Configurable ending year https://git.io/JeX0o
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16:07:58  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on pull request #7791: GS method to control engine availability for a specific company https://git.io/JeXE0
16:10:01  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh dismissed a review for pull request #7747: Feature: Configurable ending year https://git.io/Jeiuj
16:10:01  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh updated pull request #7747: Feature: Configurable ending year https://git.io/Je3UD
16:11:05  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7747: Feature: Configurable ending year https://git.io/JeXEK
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16:41:39  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SkippyCoo9 opened issue #7846: Missing Industries https://git.io/JeXze
16:45:16  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SkippyCoo9 commented on issue #7846: Missing Industries https://git.io/JeXze
17:02:27  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #7846: Missing Industries https://git.io/JeXze
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17:18:23  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] glx22 updated pull request #66: Add: allow use of switches and random switches as procedures https://git.io/JePq0
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18:27:01  <andythenorth> yo
18:27:04  <frosch123> hoi
18:27:06  <Wolf01> Oy
18:27:15  <frosch123> didn't you have a list of what needs documenting for nml?
18:27:29  <frosch123> i wanted to write a test grf, but noone documented the 64cargo industry vars
18:27:48  <glx> is it supported by nml ?
18:27:54  <andythenorth> https://github.com/openTTD/nml/issues
18:28:00  <frosch123> apparently, it does not compile the old ones
18:28:23  <andythenorth> 16cargo props and prod. cb are documented
18:28:28  <andythenorth> I don't know about vars
18:28:43  <andythenorth> or 64cargo vars
18:28:56  <andythenorth> FIRS appears to work FWIW
18:29:11  <andythenorth> happy to help, or extend the examples
18:29:15  <frosch123> essentially all vars ending in _1 or _2 (i guess)
18:29:34  <andythenorth> imho nml really needs comprehensive examples as a hygiene factor
18:29:37  <andythenorth> redneck form of TDD
18:29:52  <andythenorth> write the example nml first, then have it compile
18:30:00  <andythenorth> shame the docs are so painful to work on :P
18:30:41  <andythenorth> so production_rate_1 production_rate_2 ?
18:30:52  <andythenorth> oh there's no point listing them :P
18:30:55  <andythenorth> there are loads
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18:32:20  <frosch123> well, i can't get them to work
18:32:25  <frosch123> i guess i have to read the source
18:32:31  <frosch123> or maybe firs?
18:32:37  <frosch123> is firs now the offical docs?
18:33:42  <andythenorth> I hope not
18:33:49  <andythenorth> I know where the bodies are buried :P
18:33:52  <frosch123> oh, the nml inplementation is also all crap
18:34:05  <frosch123> some vars are deleted, but not all, and none of the new ones were added
18:34:07  <andythenorth> did these vars just get overlooked?
18:35:13  <andythenorth> ouch maybe FIRS is the reference, that's unwise https://github.com/OpenTTD/nml/pull/15#issuecomment-471717407
18:35:20  <andythenorth> who writes these things?
18:35:31  <frosch123> well, i'll ignore it then
18:36:01  <andythenorth> did nfo change?
18:36:03  * andythenorth looks
18:36:47  <andythenorth> vars 69-71?
18:37:09  <andythenorth> seems like
18:37:14  <frosch123> find the commit, make a pr to revert it, and tell people to finish their stuff
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18:39:24  <andythenorth> that happened when I accidentally became the maintainer :P
18:39:28  <nielsm> I still think the nml docs should be in the nml repository, so docs follow version, and PRs can be rejected until they contain the appropriate doc updates
18:39:31  <andythenorth> I did not like that situation
18:39:46  <andythenorth> I am +1 to that nielsm
18:39:57  <andythenorth> I have done a crapload of wading through docs recently
18:40:06  <andythenorth> I am quite happy to move wiki docs to $something
18:40:30  <andythenorth> but maybe not alone, and maybe it could be somewhat automated
18:43:30  <frosch123> https://paste.openttdcoop.org/p3kamjev2?/p3kamjev2 <- glx: how do it call procedures? that doesn't compile
18:45:35  <glx> add () (but I think I didn't try calling in this part)
18:45:57  <frosch123> ah, that works
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18:47:47  <glx> oh was miss reading your paste :)
18:48:09  <glx> anyway procedure calls need ()
18:48:29  <frosch123> how weird, nml reverses the multiplcation, so it dodges my attempts to destroy registers
18:48:32  <glx> because I think it's clearer that way
18:49:07  <glx> (and that allows some simplifications in the code too)
18:51:31  <glx> oh it's easy to destroy registers, just use any stuff storing data in a ternary op
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18:53:09  <glx> it's implemented as !test*false_block+test*true_block
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18:55:19  <frosch123> glx: i'll add the test case to your branch
18:55:20  <glx> the reference counting system takes care of registers IIRC
18:55:36  <frosch123> it uses the same registers in the caller as in the calle
18:55:48  <frosch123> so the callee destroys the temporary terms in the caller
18:56:03  <glx> oh, that's something to handle then
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18:56:17  <frosch123> oh, wait, it doesnt
18:56:28  <frosch123> it just does it differently than expected
18:56:44  <glx> yeah nml often does that
18:57:04  <glx> like the weird construct for a simple param[XX]
18:57:09  <frosch123> it first assigns the registers in the caller, then assigned unused ones in the callee
18:57:18  <frosch123> but that makes little sense if the callee is used multiple times
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18:58:21  <andythenorth> https://pandoc.org/
19:01:12  <nielsm> lol the diagram at the bottom
19:03:25  <andythenorth> graphviz innit :)
19:08:04  <andythenorth> I tried a graphviz tech tree https://firs-test-1.s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/iron-horse/docs/html/tech_tree.dot.svg
19:08:06  <andythenorth> doesn't really work
19:08:57  <frosch123> hmm, i know how to fetch a pr, but how do it push to one?
19:10:29  <nielsm> I can never find the documentation on how to make those fetch paths/whatever for PRs so I always just add the other user's repository as a regular remote and pull the branch from there
19:10:37  <nielsm> that also allows me to push directly
19:11:27  <frosch123> ah, i thought i need to push to the pr, but instead i push to the pr author
19:19:26  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] frosch123 updated pull request #66: Add: allow use of switches and random switches as procedures https://git.io/JePq0
19:19:39  <frosch123> glx: i added the test case
19:19:56  <frosch123> the usage of + is odd, i expected r
19:20:31  <frosch123> and the register assignment appears wasteful...
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19:32:30  <nielsm> hm interesting, transport fever 2 has "daylength mod" built in, and even allows to stop the passage of time without stopping the movement of vehicles, cargo and money
19:33:05  <frosch123> i read they added a "stop technology year"
19:33:08  <andythenorth> is it good?
19:33:17  <nielsm> just watching a video right now
19:33:25  <nielsm> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_bOW8L-NbU
19:33:45  <frosch123> andythenorth: eddi plays it all the time
19:34:01  <frosch123> compared to ottd it is less flexible, but more detailed
19:34:15  <frosch123> like it forces you to play along cargodest
19:34:19  <nielsm> tf2 is not out yet :) a bunch of "influencers" have received review copies
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19:34:31  <frosch123> is eddi among them?
19:34:54  <nielsm> probably not? his tf1 streams haven't been massively popular afaik
19:34:56  <nielsm> :)
19:37:28  <andythenorth> I liked peter1138 live coding
19:37:33  <andythenorth> best twitch I've seen
19:37:40  <andythenorth> live openttd was a close second
19:38:01  <andythenorth> also hasn't pikka solved daylength now?
19:38:17  <Wolf01> <nielsm> hm interesting, transport fever 2 has "daylength mod" built in <- there is for the previous one too, you can get 2x, 4x and 8x in the workshop
19:38:39  <nielsm> yes but that's a mod not built in, and it doesn't have slowdown and stop
19:39:08  <Wolf01> BTW, already pre-purchased :>
19:40:02  <frosch123> never pre-order games
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19:41:30  <Wolf01> I know what I should expect for this one, so purchasing it now or 2 days after release (losing even a 10% discount) it doesn't change a lot
19:41:57  <andythenorth> so why isn't daylength just 'vehicles never expire'?
19:42:53  <nielsm> because it's also "new things aren't introduced"
19:43:06  <nielsm> and other kinds of "the world doesn't change"
19:43:46  <andythenorth> and this thing about reducing cargo amounts
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19:43:57  <andythenorth> and making it take longer for vehicles to travel a->b
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19:44:32  <nielsm> the daylength in tf2 seems to be solely about the introduction and deprecation of technology
19:44:42  <andythenorth> hmm, if longer travel time a->b is the goal, why not just move a and b further apart?
19:45:07  <andythenorth> maybe OpenTTD scale is the problem, not daylength
19:46:37  * andythenorth checks
19:47:40  <Wolf01> Mmmh, no, I want to play longer with a generation, make trains faster instead
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19:49:56  <andythenorth> yeah daylength is used to fix scale
19:50:05  <andythenorth> people measure tile size by train travel time
19:50:08  <andythenorth> so that's a thing
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19:51:40  <andythenorth> daylength 'gives time to play "the whole map' rather than just bits of it'
19:51:42  <andythenorth> but how?
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19:53:02  <Wolf01> More money in same time... or you have more time to build a route without having to replace the train when it gets to the other end because 15 years passed
19:53:05  * andythenorth back to tanks
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19:53:12  <andythenorth> and bricklink lolz
19:56:57  <glx> [20:19:57] <frosch123> the usage of + is odd, i expected r <-- for the 1C part ?
19:57:14  <frosch123> yes
19:57:32  <glx> I followed the newgrf doc
19:58:36  <glx> "Because callback results are limited to 15 bits, to access the full 32 bit result you can read variable 1C instead (e.g. by and-ing the 7E result with 0 and then adding var. 1C)."
19:58:42  <frosch123> i see, r requires ttdp 2.6, while + works in 2.5 :)
19:59:18  <glx> anyway nml puts r everywhere :)
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20:20:31  <milek7> maybe 'daylength' should just at end of the year rewind calendar to beginning of the year, X times ;)
20:21:02  <nielsm> that approach has also been attempted
20:23:24  <nielsm> how about a completely different approach, define the simulation of movement and economy in real time (player's wall clock minutes and seconds) using the current nominal tick rate of 30 ms/tick
20:23:33  <LordAro> if in doubt, it's probably been attempted :p
20:23:58  <nielsm> and then have a separate calendar that only controls technological progress, and the mapping of calendar days to simulation ticks can be adjusted
20:24:11  <nielsm> I think that's more or less what transport fever 2 does
20:24:41  <nielsm> (I saw something in that video where a vehicle model's lifetime was measured in hours and minutes)
20:27:16  <andythenorth> so tech tree date?
20:27:31  <nielsm> yes
20:29:06  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #7845: Add: a TextColour flag to ignore colour changes from strings https://git.io/JeXVx
20:29:54  <nielsm> also if you then speed up the tick rate to 26.66 ms/tick you get very close to 12 minutes per 365 simulation days
20:30:23  <nielsm> so you can pretend one minute = one month
20:31:47  <nielsm> and in turn, two seconds = one day
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20:38:17  <nielsm> or go with 27.03 ms per tick for actual 2 second days
20:38:30  <andythenorth> and how would that work for realism?
20:38:35  * andythenorth wishes the game didn't have a year
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20:38:48  <andythenorth> my kids play all kinds of dragon games and sim games with just days or months
20:39:01  <andythenorth> or 'x years since start'
20:39:11  <nielsm> you can then change the passage of calendar time without changing the passage of economy time
20:39:51  <nielsm> the point of changing the length of a tick is just to make the economy time easier to describe in real time terms
20:41:21  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro requested changes for pull request #7843: Industry directory cargo filtering https://git.io/JeXwt
20:41:41  <nielsm> so train run costs would become "£5000 per 12 minutes", industry production would become "130 tons per minute"
20:43:24  <nielsm> need to invent a better word for a 12 minute period though, how about "dedumi" as a terrible contraction of deci-duo minute
20:44:44  <andythenorth> :P
20:45:18  <nielsm> or maybe a penter
20:45:24  <nielsm> like a quarter but for five
20:54:47  <andythenorth> so player would change...what setting? :)
20:55:15  <nielsm> that would be a fundamental change, an openttd 2.0 kind of thing :)
21:00:02  <andythenorth> probably fine?
21:00:06  <andythenorth> that
21:00:12  <andythenorth> and new gameplay modes
21:00:22  <andythenorth> and moving all the vehicles and industry to a newgrf abstraction :P
21:00:45  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #7845: Add: a TextColour flag to ignore colour changes from strings https://git.io/JeXwX
21:08:07  <nielsm> the "move all the base game to newgrf" isn't truly possible since most newgrf features are based on the idea of inheritance of some base item
21:08:34  <nielsm> the original base values would still have to be there somewhere
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21:10:07  <nielsm> anyway, sleep time
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21:15:07  <andythenorth> snowplough time
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21:47:42  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] stormcone commented on pull request #7843: Industry directory cargo filtering https://git.io/JeXoC
21:53:03  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #7843: Industry directory cargo filtering https://git.io/JeXoR
21:54:00  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #7843: Industry directory cargo filtering https://git.io/JeXou
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22:22:31  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro requested changes for pull request #7817: Feature: Minimap screenshot https://git.io/JeXKO
22:23:41  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #7788: Doc: Convert known_bugs.txt to markdown format https://git.io/JeXKs
22:30:28  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro requested changes for pull request #7800: Easier access for vehicles' group window. https://git.io/JeXKW
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22:34:24  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #7747: Feature: Configurable ending year https://git.io/JeXKa
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22:44:19  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] stormcone commented on pull request #7843: Industry directory cargo filtering https://git.io/JeXKQ
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22:53:29  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on pull request #7747: Feature: Configurable ending year https://git.io/JeX6J
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23:16:36  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] stormcone commented on pull request #7800: Easier access for vehicles' group window. https://git.io/JeX69
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23:39:09  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #7800: Easier access for vehicles' group window. https://git.io/JeXi9
23:41:04  <peter1138> CHEESE!
23:41:08  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #7843: Industry directory cargo filtering https://git.io/JeXi5
23:41:10  <peter1138> Although, that was not very good cheese.
23:41:13  <LordAro> gromit!
23:41:20  <peter1138> 1 marmite cheddar bite (okay but not great)
23:41:30  <peter1138> 1 light babybel bite (worse, why did I?)
23:41:50  <peter1138> But, eh, I didn't want to open the Gruyere or the goat's cheese just yet.
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23:51:16  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] stormcone commented on pull request #7843: Industry directory cargo filtering https://git.io/JeXPk
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