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Log for #openttd on 5th December 2019:
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01:16:00  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/website] James103 opened issue #112: Suggestion: Make author and date added always publicly visible on bananas.openttd.org https://git.io/JeDiD
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01:20:52  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/website] James103 commented on issue #89: Obsolete form for adding Newgrf to bananas.openttd.org https://git.io/fjCeD
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07:49:20  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/website] LordAro commented on issue #112: Suggestion: Make author and date added always publicly visible on bananas.openttd.org https://git.io/JeDiD
07:49:54  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/website] LordAro commented on issue #89: Obsolete form for adding Newgrf to bananas.openttd.org https://git.io/fjCeD
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11:11:26  <andythenorth> o/
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11:50:29  <nielsm> hmm, big challenge with this NoCalendar idea might be linkgraph/timetables
11:53:54  <andythenorth> frigging timetables :)
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12:48:34  <nielsm> and lots of complexities with service interval (and presentation of that) too
12:52:33  <andythenorth> hmm
12:53:32  * andythenorth tries to picture it all
12:53:33  <andythenorth> ouch
12:54:09  <andythenorth> can this ever work, without the pre-requisite of decoupling all cyclical actions from the calendar datetime?
12:59:38  <andythenorth> what else works on days, besides servicing, timetables
13:00:05  <andythenorth> anything in newgrf that works by comparing datetimes
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13:45:40  <Eddi|zuHause> that's exactly the kind of problem that made any previous daylength patch fail
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14:31:59  <Sacro> Don't mock my daylength patch :(
14:33:17  <andythenorth> ouch
14:33:28  <andythenorth> when I see the word 'sacro' now I just associate it with back pain :P
14:33:59  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: so we're back at 'daylength can never work'?
14:47:00  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: no, but it needs a kind of sophisticated and thorough approach that is really unlikely to emerge in a hobby project
14:47:49  <Eddi|zuHause> (not that it would be any more likely in a professional project, with deadlines and such)
14:50:13  <andythenorth> hmmm
14:50:19  <andythenorth> what a funny position to be boxed into
14:50:36  <andythenorth> * players use daylength to address issues they percieve as real and important
14:50:48  <andythenorth> * daylength "just works" in JGR
14:50:56  <andythenorth> * daylength can never work in the real world
14:50:57  <andythenorth> how odd :)
14:51:16  <andythenorth> fallacies are strange and interesting
15:00:02  <planetmaker> @ports
15:00:02  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
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15:03:36  <supermop_work> andythenorth: who says it 'just works'?
15:03:55  <andythenorth> same as before, vocal posters on forums or reddit
15:04:05  <andythenorth> likely a handful of posters
15:04:42  <planetmaker> the difference between "works for my use case" and "works for everyone and in every corner case"
15:05:17  <planetmaker> Also... can be done without accomodating everyone's needs... after all it's *adding* something, defaults remain
15:05:20  <andythenorth> I used to play with multiple newgrf sets enabled :P
15:05:26  <andythenorth> 'just works'
15:05:29  <andythenorth> until it doesn't
15:05:42  <planetmaker> in which case it's the newgrfs faults. not openttds :) :P
15:05:51  <andythenorth> I think it was my fault tbh
15:06:04  <planetmaker> also: it's not exactly a requirement that existing newgrfs behave nicely with all daylength settings.
15:06:24  <planetmaker> It's absolutely ok to expose some variables for newgrfs to take into account daylength
15:06:53  <planetmaker> it's just a question of default settings. And adopting NewGRFs / OpenTTD settings, if they don't suit you. Like always
15:07:06  <planetmaker> there's no no-config solution which is good for everyone. There cannot be
15:08:03  <andythenorth> I might just solve this myself
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15:43:43  <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> * daylength "just works" in JGR
15:43:44  <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> * daylength can never work in the real world
15:43:46  <Eddi|zuHause> there's a difference between "works for me", "works for a general audience" and "is sustainable/maintainable"
15:44:38  <Eddi|zuHause> that difference is usually something like "takes 3 hours to implement" and "takes 3 months to implement"
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15:52:57  <FLHerne> andythenorth: The people for whom it doesn't "just work" stop using and suggesting it :P
15:55:05  <andythenorth> so we see a form of confirmation bias
15:55:14  <FLHerne> Yes
15:55:59  <andythenorth> I can't leave problems like this alone, it's like picking a scab :P
15:56:23  <andythenorth> anyway, how shall I implement the parameter solution in newgrfs?
15:56:31  <andythenorth> 'length of each generation'?
15:56:34  <andythenorth> 'scaling factor'?
15:57:03  <FLHerne> andythenorth: "Length of generation" is pointless and won't make anyone happy
15:57:21  <andythenorth> pikka has solved this, where's the link :P
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15:57:39  <FLHerne> The people who care about 'realism' want specific in-game dates, regardless of whether that makes any practical difference ;-)
15:57:54  <FLHerne> Production scaling factor is probably the useful one
15:58:45  <FLHerne> Either in vanilla as an alternative to that misuse of 'daylength', or to correct for it when people use daylength for intro dates and don't want an effective reduction in cargo
15:59:50  <andythenorth> https://irclogs.thegrebs.com/openttd/2019/11/17#03:23
16:01:40  <FLHerne> I remember seeing that, it's still wrong :P
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16:04:42  <milek7_> i have git branch with my changes on top of earlier PR. PR was merged but squashed, and now i want to rebase only my commits onto tip of master
16:04:51  <milek7_> is it possible to rebase it automatically, or i have to cherry-pick manually?
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16:08:32  <andythenorth> we just need an "it's always 1965" button
16:08:55  <milek7_> 'calendar pause'
16:09:21  <milek7_> groundhog day mode
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16:18:57  <milek7_> ok, `git rebase --onto master last_commit_on_squashed_pr my_branch` did it
16:24:40  <nielsm> andythenorth: yeah that's basically what I'm trying to do, but maybe I'm doing it the wrong way around
16:25:23  * andythenorth wonders how many places the month-year is shown :P
16:25:26  <andythenorth> and if we can hide them all
16:25:40  <andythenorth> I could invent 12 fake month names
16:25:54  <andythenorth> and we could just cycle them, whilst not incremementing the year
16:31:14  <planetmaker> January, Jabuary, February, Mebruary, March, Aprirch, April, Maypril, May, ...
16:36:26  <andythenorth> nice :)
16:39:45  <Sacro> Smarch?
16:39:50  <Sacro> Lousy smarch weather
16:41:37  <planetmaker> Currently it's quite typical Nocember weather
16:42:29  <planetmaker> quite a bit colder than in Octember
16:42:35  <planetmaker> or even Septober
16:44:04  <andythenorth> fake months, and it's always 1965
16:44:21  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: use the month names from the french revolution?
16:44:29  <andythenorth> wfm
16:45:12  <andythenorth> we should have done levels
16:45:43  <andythenorth> games like Township are just levels, no dates https://heavyeditorial.files.wordpress.com/2019/06/township-buildings.jpg?quality=65&strip=all&w=780&h=439
16:46:23  <planetmaker> hm... Hartung, Hornung, Lenzing, Ostermond, Maien, Brachet, Heuet, Ernting, Herbstmond, Gilbhard, Nebelung und Julmond?
16:46:44  <Sacro> Nebelung sounds painful
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16:47:01  <andythenorth> level 7: you get the Chaney Jubilee
16:47:01  <planetmaker> translates to foggy-month
16:47:14  <planetmaker> or misty-month. whatever
16:52:27  <supermop_work> 13 month calendar?
16:52:37  <andythenorth> 28 month calendar
16:52:47  <andythenorth> maybe that's the serious solution :P
16:53:12  <supermop_work> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Fixed_Calendar
16:53:37  <supermop_work> i always find it hard to believe that people at kodak were actually using this
16:55:32  <andythenorth> how many months per year: '256'
16:56:00  <andythenorth> solves everything no?
16:56:15  <andythenorth> all 'per month' 'every x days' keep working
16:56:28  <andythenorth> vehicle intro *year* is unaffected
16:56:31  <planetmaker> hm... 2*12=28? :P
16:56:47  <andythenorth> arbitrary numbers :P
16:56:53  <andythenorth> newgrf keeps working
16:56:59  <andythenorth> except for seasonal snowline :(
16:57:00  <andythenorth> oh
16:57:04  <planetmaker> except yearly expenses etc :P
16:57:15  <andythenorth> my idea is dead, it will break seasonal snowline
16:57:19  <planetmaker> except introduction dates
16:57:19  <andythenorth> oof
16:57:35  <andythenorth> intro dates would be fine
16:58:42  <planetmaker> well, solution really is *day* length :)
16:58:57  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i've no clue what problem you're trying to solve, but it's almost certainly not one anyone who uses daylength would be looking for
16:58:58  <planetmaker> which can be ticks/day
16:59:31  <andythenorth> yes, but we've established that daylength is impossible Eddi|zuHause
16:59:35  <andythenorth> so what might satisfice?
16:59:53  <andythenorth> we've also established that daylength in JGR satisfices, even though it's known not to work
17:00:01  <planetmaker> and includes to adopt monthly, yearly, and "tick"ly callbacks by whatever scaling deemed appropriate for whatever function
17:00:37  <planetmaker> making the scaling configurable basically solves it... everyone can set the things to bug where they want :P
17:00:44  <andythenorth> the perceived problem is solved - comprehensively - by a non-working solution
17:00:57  <andythenorth> so what can we do equivalently, given that nobody is prepared to just merge the non-working solution
17:00:59  <andythenorth> ?
17:01:14  <andythenorth> JGR has won because of daylength, the forums and reddit are quite clear
17:01:38  <andythenorth> they don't complain about daylength not working, they are adamant it works
17:02:00  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: any gameplay that is currently tied to a recurring cycle, must be reviewed and explicitly tied to a "tick" or a "day" cycle
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17:02:43  <supermop_work> Eddi|zuHause: andy is just being willfully difficult again?
17:02:46  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: only after that is done, you can reliably add a setting for daylength
17:02:47  <planetmaker> andythenorth, the people who play JGR - often for daylength reasons - are satisfied with it. Doesn't mean others who want a daylength want that daylength. Sample bias at its best
17:03:17  <andythenorth> they're not reporting that though?
17:03:27  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: they're never reporting that.
17:03:44  <andythenorth> squeaky wheel gets the oil
17:03:44  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: look at any mention of "well tested" in the logs/forum
17:04:00  <andythenorth> supermop_work nah I just want it solved
17:04:26  <planetmaker> why should I report anything about something I haven't really tried? Or what I know is designed to work for some way but not generally? It's measured by different standards
17:04:34  <andythenorth> and nothing gets solved by attempting to use a solution that has already been defined as unworkable
17:04:39  <andythenorth> it needs an oblique approach
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17:05:25  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: dunno, the "do nothing" approach seems to be working fine for the last 14-ish years
17:05:35  <jgr_> My patchpack is not about daylength, it really isn't that big an issue in the big scheme of things
17:05:38  <planetmaker> it is an excellent test field. But it is not expected to solve every problem
17:06:27  <planetmaker> I'm not claiming it is, jgr_ :) But it *is* a playground for people who love daylength - at least in the form implemented
17:06:48  <planetmaker> doesn't say all use it :)
17:07:58  <planetmaker> and ofc those who don't use it... don't report any opinion on it either
17:08:59  * andythenorth wonders about a timeless mode
17:09:09  <planetmaker> same thing, same problems
17:09:18  <nielsm> you still need to keep _some_ form of time
17:09:20  <andythenorth> FIRS mostly ignores any dates, because industry transitions just do not work
17:09:30  <andythenorth> years / dates /s
17:09:36  <planetmaker> they work for default oil
17:09:44  <andythenorth> FIRS has some stupid legacy stuff like date-sensitive graphics
17:09:48  <FLHerne> supermop_work: Yeah, definitely
17:10:06  <FLHerne> planetmaker: Everyone hates them for default oil ;-)
17:10:09  <planetmaker> I don't consider date-sensitive graphics "stupid legacy"
17:10:23  <FLHerne> (Everyone™)
17:10:25  <nielsm> at the timescale (speed) TT plays at, more than one or two industry transitions don't really make sense
17:10:48  <planetmaker> FLHerne, agreed, it's not the feature I'm looking for in default industries... it's annoying :P
17:10:49  <FLHerne> That's something where daylength might actually allow for different mechanics
17:10:50  <nielsm> and the oil wells => oil platforms transition made somewhat more sense in TTO when its 1930 start than the TTD 1950 start
17:11:13  * andythenorth wonders about deleting 5 of the 6 generations in Iron Horse
17:11:30  <andythenorth> it would be much smaller grf, saves bandwidth + compile time
17:11:32  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Personally, the most tempting things in JGRPP have nothing to do with daylength
17:11:33  <andythenorth> let's see
17:11:58  <nielsm> andythenorth: define a railtype for each generation then you can just build a depot for just the generation you want to play with
17:12:03  <planetmaker> nielsm, yes. And it highly depends on how one wants to play. Actually the transition is probably more fun, when you have slower time. It comes too quickly
17:12:37  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Signal routing restrictions, bridges over stations and template-based train replacement are all much nicer to me
17:12:37  <planetmaker> hehe... the day when OpenTTD is bandwidth limited will still need to come.
17:13:16  <FLHerne> andythenorth: I *still* think you're getting hung up on daylength out of all proportion to its actual impact ;-)
17:13:38  <FLHerne> Not that it's not worth discussing
17:14:01  <jgr_> Trying to simultaneously solve all time scaling issues for all users is a non-starter
17:14:16  <FLHerne> But this "JGR has won because..." and "everyone has switched to because..." is counterfactual hyperbole
17:14:43  <andythenorth> I'm talking about a handful of very vocal users
17:14:49  <andythenorth> for which daylength is the primary benefit
17:15:02  <jgr_> The existing economy, time and scaling is entirely arbitary and it is OK for modifications to also be arbitrary
17:16:54  <Eddi|zuHause> wtf does Lutris exist for? i've never clicked on a lutris install script, and had the resulting game actually run properly
17:17:45  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the problem with including daylength into the main game is the part of the audience which is NOT this vocal core group
17:18:42  <andythenorth> I don't know about serving the apparent needs of people who aren't asking for anything
17:18:48  <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: Well, if it's optional...
17:18:48  <andythenorth> not sure how we'd discover those
17:18:50  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: so, step 1 of including a daylength patch is "make sure, nothing changes for people who don't want daylength", and step 2 is "make sure it works for people who have no clue they want daylength, but randomly enable it anyway"
17:18:55  <andythenorth> we can anticipate needs ourselves of course
17:19:05  <andythenorth> that's a valid design approach
17:19:41  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the needs of the vocal minority is satisfied with JGR-PP existing
17:20:11  <FLHerne> Just checking before I try doing it: in NML, is there any particular reason why the various operators aren't just subclasses of BinOp?
17:20:35  <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: no clue, i wasn't involved with the design of that
17:21:18  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: they're not, they need the industry grfs patched
17:21:33  <FLHerne> There's all sorts of behaviour `if isinstance(op, nmlop.ADD): ... elif isinstance(op, nmlop.SUB): ...` that would be much nicer if they just implemented it themselves
17:21:49  <FLHerne> ('just' :P)
17:22:15  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: so you're saying the existing implementation doesn't actually implement the requirements? then what would be solved by merging the existing implementation?
17:22:22  <andythenorth> nothing
17:22:27  <andythenorth> nobody is going to merge that
17:22:39  <andythenorth> the oblique solution is needed
17:22:39  <FLHerne> andythenorth: If they want industry grfs patched to counteract the current effect, then that's because they don't want that kind of meh Eddi just said it
17:22:42  <Eddi|zuHause> then what's the fuzz about?
17:23:11  <andythenorth> finding a solution o/c
17:23:17  <andythenorth> it's a game
17:23:35  <jgr_> I don't see why industry GRFs should need to be patched
17:23:50  <andythenorth> production is too low
17:23:50  <jgr_> Making that a requirement would make the feature dead before it ever got off the ground
17:24:58  <andythenorth> https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=44177&start=1560#p1226802
17:25:01  <jgr_> Is that a problem?
17:25:50  <andythenorth> anyway, I think I'll end up doing what I was going to do all along :P
17:26:00  <andythenorth> which is add configurable intro dates to all my vehicle grfs
17:26:25  <andythenorth> nobody has been able to identify a better alternative
17:27:06  <jgr_> For me at least, vehicle into dates are a non-issue as I usually start the game when all that finished anyhow
17:27:09  <jgr_> is*
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17:29:26  <FLHerne> andythenorth: configurable production + existing daylength is much closer to players' demands than configurable intro dates + vanilla
17:30:09  <planetmaker> yeah, probably
17:30:11  <FLHerne> The "daylength for low production!" people are mostly happy with existing daylength
17:30:32  <planetmaker> well. configurable production + configurable daylength (which exists, right?)
17:30:38  <andythenorth> the intro dates aren't to solve daylength
17:30:46  <FLHerne> The "daylength for realism!" people, when not intersecting the above, wouldn't be satisfied with different intro dates because they aren't realistic :P
17:30:46  <jgr_> Configurable production doesn't exist, as far as I am aware
17:30:48  <andythenorth> and if they don't solve daylength, I won't explain them as such
17:30:53  <andythenorth> this was helpful
17:31:19  <andythenorth> I think I'll just copy Pikka's 'generation lock' feature
17:31:25  <planetmaker> xxx for realism is a thing which does not fly with any feature in OpenTTD :P
17:31:41  <FLHerne> jgr_: I mean, if andy patches his grfs, patching FIRS to add configurable production (as per that thread) would make people happier than patching the vehicle dates
17:31:55  <FLHerne> planetmaker: You'd be surprised?
17:32:05  <planetmaker> by what?
17:32:13  <FLHerne> There's, like, UKRS2+ and WAS and BROS or whatever its successor is
17:32:19  <FLHerne> And the entire screenshot subforum
17:32:25  <FLHerne> And all of my savegames
17:32:25  <andythenorth> RUKTS
17:32:32  <planetmaker> yes... but realistically speaking, it's not realistic :)
17:32:48  <jgr_> Realism is relative
17:32:51  <planetmaker> it's just graphics which somewhat resemble to look like real vehicles
17:33:06  <planetmaker> but their acceleration is strange as time and distance is strange
17:33:14  <FLHerne> planetmaker: It's weird how suspension of disbelief can stretch to cover everything being isometric pixels, but not intricate details of vehicle types :P
17:33:42  <jgr_> Comparing stuff from openttdcoop to much of the screenshot, it is easy to see which is intended to approximate realism
17:33:43  <planetmaker> they even change length when they drive -- or // or \ or ||
17:33:45  <planetmaker> depends :)
17:33:47  <jgr_> thread*
17:34:23  <FLHerne> AAUI, the majority of the "slower intro dates" demand is specifically to play with all of the odd variants in the "comprehensive [country] trainset" grfs
17:34:30  <planetmaker> well, coop certainly does not go for realism on its servers. Usually.
17:34:38  <FLHerne> Which is why andy's proposed solution doesn't solve anything
17:34:41  <planetmaker> and yes @FLHerne . And I can very well understand that
17:35:10  <andythenorth> what I haven't figured out is how to do progression with a generation lock
17:35:15  <FLHerne> The people wanting it are people like, say, me, and I don't play IH much anyway for the reasons we discussed a few weeks ago
17:35:19  <planetmaker> (some) people want a slow game and go through the 1920s, 1930s such that they can actually enjoy the vehicles without them being obsolete after 30 minutes of real time gameplay
17:35:29  <planetmaker> (or whatever years it is)
17:35:42  <FLHerne> [afk, sorry]
17:36:00  <andythenorth> planetmaker: that's why I was thinking of a configurable generation length
17:36:03  <andythenorth> or generation lock
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17:36:32  <andythenorth> I supposed 'vehicles never expire' doesn't solve it?
17:36:48  <andythenorth> also Iron Horse is completely incompatible with 'vehicles never expire' :P
17:36:53  <planetmaker> yes... that somewhat would solve it. But not idealy. Dates are all wrong etc. Realism means then to have approx. the correct date displayed
17:37:21  <planetmaker> if you don't care about date, I do as jgr said: start after all vehicles are present, and buy whatever suits me
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17:37:36  <planetmaker> be that slow and early or fast and late
17:38:30  <andythenorth> I don't care about the date
17:38:43  <planetmaker> then daylength is a non-issue for you
17:38:49  <andythenorth> this discussion shows I can just discount daylength
17:38:53  <planetmaker> just play with vehicles never expire and all is fine
17:38:53  <andythenorth> it's of no relevance
17:39:06  <andythenorth> Iron Horse is incompatible with 'never expire' :)
17:39:16  <planetmaker> contact the author and complain :P
17:39:24  <andythenorth> I could just patch the grf locally :P
17:39:25  <planetmaker> I'm sure you got the contact ;)
17:39:34  <andythenorth> version 2.5: only vehicles for 1960 are included
17:39:42  <andythenorth> version 2.6: I got bored, now I'm playing 1870
17:39:58  <planetmaker> hm... t(pi)... variable time with loops
17:40:16  <andythenorth> maybe I should split Iron Horse into multiple grfs
17:40:21  <andythenorth> 1 per generation
17:42:17  <Eddi|zuHause> (i think we had that discussion already)
17:42:50  <andythenorth> I considered 1 grf per roster alternately
17:42:55  <andythenorth> not sure which way to cut it up
17:43:23  <andythenorth> I wish we could package multiple grfs into a single installable wrapper
17:44:47  <nielsm> 3 settings per generation, "enabled", "year introduced", "year expires"
17:45:01  <andythenorth> that works for a single-roster grf
17:45:23  <andythenorth> it collapses when there's a choice between 'British-ish trains', 'American-ish trains'
17:45:31  <andythenorth> which have different tech trees
17:45:44  <andythenorth> this points to splitting Iron Horse by roster
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17:59:01  <andythenorth> BIAB
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18:00:04  <Eddi|zuHause> (no, this points to the approach chosen not being the correct solution either)
18:00:39  <jgr_> Unfortunately there is no singular "correct" solution
18:03:15  <Eddi|zuHause> i always wanted a series of "game scale" options, of which daylength would be a part
18:03:19  <Wolf01> I can't understand how IH would be incompatible with never expires
18:03:44  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: that's a case of "andy uses words differently than normal people"
18:03:54  <Wolf01> Oh ok
18:04:11  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: what he (probably) means is "the purchase list gets too long for my taste"
18:04:19  <Wolf01> :D
18:04:50  <Eddi|zuHause> we already have a game scale option: plane speed
18:04:51  <Wolf01> Hide vehicles then, you can do it,,,
18:05:41  <Wolf01> Yes, I thought to port it to other vehicles too when I made the last daylength attempt
18:06:11  <Eddi|zuHause> other options could be: production rates, decay speed (ratings, reliability), ...
18:08:27  <Wolf01> If we make everything parametric and then pass a multiplier/divider, wouldn't it set the entire game pace as one could want?
18:08:46  <jgr_> It would be easy to end up adding a lot of knobs which users then don't know what to do with
18:08:55  <Eddi|zuHause> yes.
18:09:04  <Wolf01> No, just one, you speed up or slow down, everything
18:09:35  <Eddi|zuHause> the problem with too few knobs is you get endless arguing what the knob should do or shouldn't do
18:09:52  <Wolf01> If you really want you can bury the settings on the config file like PBS ones, but on the options you only have one master value
18:09:56  <Eddi|zuHause> which has happened to almost every daylength patch so far
18:10:18  <planetmaker> Wolf01, yes
18:10:45  <planetmaker> definitely not as part of the basic settings :P
18:10:47  <Eddi|zuHause> i see no problem with having several settings, as long as each has a clear domain and a clear description
18:11:21  <Wolf01> The main problem is that if you configure the game in a way the economy doesn't scale up with speed it's your fault
18:11:33  <Eddi|zuHause> oh, we also have another game scale setting already: cargo weight multiplier
18:11:45  <planetmaker> also yes
18:12:03  <planetmaker> summary settings might be exposed in UI. But the detailed scaling might be cfg-only
18:12:36  <Eddi|zuHause> i see no point in hiding the settings in cfg. you do that for things which would be dangerous to change for uninformed people
18:12:37  <jgr_> The problem with cfg-only detail settings is that non-default values are rarely if ever tested
18:13:12  <planetmaker> then make it UI :)
18:13:22  <jgr_> It is easy to crash OpenTTD by careless changing of some the signal pathfinder penalty settings, for example
18:13:59  <planetmaker> hm :)
18:14:04  <Wolf01> If you want to fine-tune something you should know wath you are doing
18:14:37  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: maybe, but that doesn't really apply here
18:14:54  <Wolf01> And not samu-setting end scale values to see what happens
18:15:55  <Eddi|zuHause> a propos end-scale: some daylength patches were known for overflowing tick counters and stuff
18:16:14  <Wolf01> Yes, I know
18:19:19  <Eddi|zuHause> which is another of those elaborate under-the-hood stuffs, that's escalating the problem from "3 hours" to "3 months"
18:20:16  <jgr_> At least for my implementation, the most cumbersome part was timetables, followed by making various fields wider
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18:22:31  <jgr_> Including the NewGRF layer in this would probably push timescaled well beyond 3 months though
18:24:13  <jgr_> For the existing daylength patches, not involving the NewGRF layer is probably a bigger design influence than what people thought the knob should do
18:34:10  <peter1138> Oh! A wild jgr!
18:35:35  <Eddi|zuHause> jgr_: i can imagine. however, andy's actionism is more like a boss entering the room shouting "why isn't anything done yet", which doesn't help anyone who might actually be working on it
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18:55:33  <andythenorth> quak
18:55:55  <Wolf01> So, what's your excuse now?
18:56:34  <andythenorth> Blitz?
18:56:41  <andythenorth> what was the question?
18:57:04  <Wolf01> <Wolf01> I can't understand how IH would be incompatible with never expires
18:57:14  <andythenorth> oh way too many vehicles
18:57:26  <andythenorth> like a stupid number
18:57:55  <andythenorth> partly because the game runs too fast
18:58:32  <andythenorth> @calc 84 + 314
18:58:32  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 398
18:58:41  <andythenorth> yeah way too many, I could just delete 50% of them
18:59:06  <andythenorth> https://firs-test-1.s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/iron-horse/docs/html/trains.html
18:59:07  <Wolf01> Make a setting "only the vehicles I play often"
18:59:50  <Wolf01> Is it finished or there are still dummy graphics on some vehicles?
19:00:03  <andythenorth> the released version 100% of sprites are complete
19:00:09  <andythenorth> some cargos are very generic
19:01:19  <Wolf01> Is there a setting to filter out the wagon sizes?
19:01:51  <frosch123> add a setting: roaster size, 25%, 50%, 75%, 100% of vehicles are introduced, rest is skipped, randomised by game seed
19:01:58  <andythenorth> Wolf01: you started all this :P http://webster.openttdcoop.org/?channel=openttd&date=1533340800#1533373422
19:02:00  <andythenorth> 2018
19:02:17  <frosch123> Wolf01: players can already hide individual vehicles from purchase list
19:02:17  <andythenorth> frosch123: I seriously considered random roster :P
19:02:33  <Wolf01> I would always use one size, medium or large, I doubt to use small ones if not on early ages
19:02:57  <andythenorth> I tested a parameter for that
19:03:05  <andythenorth> forums said 'no need' but
19:03:14  <andythenorth> if you play test Horse and want it, I'll add it
19:03:18  <Wolf01> <andythenorth> Wolf01: you started all this <- I know, I'm one of the top activists for daylength
19:03:29  <andythenorth> "wagons: all | smallest | medium | largest"
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19:07:38  <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> 2018 <-- more like 2006? :p
19:10:05  <andythenorth> I didn't look that far back :)
19:12:42  <Eddi|zuHause> [So Jun 25 2006] [19:55:44] <Wolf01>    http://www.tt-forums.net//files/daylength_405.diff
19:13:10  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: see if you can find the patch you wrote that resets the year on a tick-tock :P
19:13:16  <andythenorth> you denied all knowledge last time
19:13:38  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i'm fairly convinced i had no involvement in that
19:13:47  <andythenorth> I can't find it in logs
19:13:55  <andythenorth> there's an equivalent patch in forums
19:16:13  <andythenorth> if game progression was 50% of current rate, I could maybe cut out 50% of Iron Horse :P
19:16:33  <andythenorth> and remove the fairly small tedious stats progression steps
19:17:25  <Eddi|zuHause> not quite following your logic
19:21:52  <andythenorth> there is a decent length of game which is about 80 years, approximately
19:22:19  <andythenorth> in real-world clock time
19:22:23  <andythenorth> and because realism, that requires new trains every 30 years or so
19:22:27  <andythenorth> which imposes a lot of generations
19:22:46  <andythenorth> and the desire to use early or late stage tech extends that either end
19:24:45  <andythenorth> to play for the same number of hours IRL, and have the in-game year advance at half the rate
19:24:58  <andythenorth> means that fewer generations are needed
19:25:05  <andythenorth> which means fewer fine-grained stat increases
19:30:21  <Eddi|zuHause> still not making any sense
19:30:56  <nielsm> fewer generations means longer between generation changes, slower game year advance means same number of game years take longer real time
19:31:14  <nielsm> combining them means four times as long real time between generations
19:31:49  <andythenorth> yes
19:31:54  <andythenorth> exactly
19:32:15  <Eddi|zuHause> but... those things are completely orthogonal?
19:33:05  <Eddi|zuHause> why would a change in one area facilitate/nececitate/enable the other?
19:33:22  <andythenorth> eh what?
19:33:50  <andythenorth> playing for the same amount of RL time
19:33:56  <andythenorth> game year advances 1930-2010
19:34:01  <andythenorth> or 1930-1970
19:34:08  <andythenorth> the first option requires many more trains
19:35:41  <Eddi|zuHause> but, you're now splitting your audience into people who want 1930-1970 or 1970-2010, each demanding a logical game progression
19:36:06  <Eddi|zuHause> of early, mid and late game
19:38:11  <nielsm> well then what even defines a set of currently available vehicles etc. as being early/mid/late game?
19:38:38  <andythenorth> my grfs currently cover 1860-2030 and it's too much
19:38:59  <andythenorth> I do 1860 because Dan MacK really wanted 1860 start
19:39:07  <andythenorth> and I go to 2030 because it was requested
19:39:18  <andythenorth> but it would be better to do 1930-2030 and that be all
19:39:27  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: there's no reason why these requests would disappear with daylength available
19:39:29  <andythenorth> maybe I should just do that, Eddi|zuHause is correct
19:39:36  <frosch123> should newgrf phone home to report which vehicles are used? :p
19:41:37  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: in CETS i have parameters for each era (pre-1920, 1920-50, 1950-1990, post-1990), which you can enable and disable at will
19:41:59  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: and the last enabled era will have expanded model life
19:42:34  <Eddi|zuHause> while each era will still have some progression within it
19:43:03  <Eddi|zuHause> problem is, almost nobody will set these parameters
19:43:34  <Eddi|zuHause> and i have too many options for each era (what you would call rosters)
19:43:50  <Eddi|zuHause> too many to pick a default
19:44:18  <andythenorth> does that give Wolf01 infinite steam era?
19:45:19  <Eddi|zuHause> no, as you would have to duplicate that for all other vehicles, buildings, whatever
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19:49:57  <andythenorth> yes but I can....
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19:53:11  <andythenorth> I can do ships, trains, RVs, all with same parameter
19:58:41  <andythenorth> maybe not planes :P
20:01:33  <andythenorth> how long does Train Fever run?
20:04:19  <nielsm> 1850 to 2020 or there about
20:04:52  <nielsm> but I don't recall exactly how fast in-game year passes
20:05:06  <nielsm> (it's also hard to judge with the poor performance that game has in general)
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20:11:29  <andythenorth> ok so nielsm have you concluded the NoCalendar is too hard?
20:11:32  <andythenorth> or just a lot of work?
20:11:37  <nielsm> a lot of work
20:22:37  <Wolf01> I think I'm too much tired to do anything
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20:28:06  <andythenorth> so we concluded....
20:28:15  <andythenorth> * daylength is possible just a lot of work?
20:28:19  <andythenorth> * Iron Horse is too big
20:28:30  <andythenorth> * confirmation bias exists
20:30:16  <frosch123> * there is not one ottd to rule them all
20:30:47  <andythenorth> that's in the game goals :D
20:32:18  <andythenorth> shall I do a company colour version of these wagons, as separate IDs?
20:32:19  <andythenorth> https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/9546/silo_wagons.png
20:32:25  <andythenorth> I've run out of ctrl-click bits for them :P
20:32:33  <andythenorth> it's a short supply :P
20:33:22  <frosch123> you can turn iron horse into a lock picking game
20:33:54  <frosch123> player has to flip 2nd, 5th, 7th vehicle to unlock some special sprite
20:34:25  <andythenorth> I was considering modifier vehicles
20:34:29  <andythenorth> did V do that already?
20:34:34  <frosch123> have you considered implementing regearing by flipping n vehicles? with only 4 wagons you can get 16 regearing modes
20:34:37  <andythenorth> like a vehicle to set the livery, which goes invisible
20:34:59  <andythenorth> not sure I can check flip with offsets?
20:35:02  <andythenorth> in cb36?
20:35:04  <Wolf01> The short ones look like copy-pasted bits of the long ones... oh wait, they are :P
20:35:14  <andythenorth> Wolf01: funny that :P
20:35:21  <andythenorth> I have now pretty much drawn
20:35:22  <frosch123> you can't in cb36, but you do not need cb36 for livery
20:35:30  <andythenorth> do for regearing though?
20:35:52  <andythenorth> I have now pretty much drawn all the OO trains I had as a child
20:35:57  <andythenorth> and all the ones I wanted in the catalogue
20:36:01  <andythenorth> so life goals are complete
20:36:04  <frosch123> yeah, too bad, regearing wont work :)
20:36:30  <andythenorth> sad sad times
20:36:56  <andythenorth> regearing, change main engine, derate engine for reliability, change traction motors, add or remove ballast weight
20:37:02  <andythenorth> change springs for maximum speed
20:37:12  <andythenorth> isolate or enable carriage electric supply
20:37:14  <andythenorth> such realisms
20:38:14  <andythenorth> remind me, why aren't liveries (subtypes) a good idea?
20:38:42  <frosch123> for your purpose cargo subtypes are the ideal solution
20:39:17  <andythenorth> super!
20:39:22  <andythenorth> I must use them!
20:39:54  <andythenorth> I particularly like how they work with consist of mixed vehicles
20:39:54  <nielsm> but they don't work with auto-refit, right?
20:39:56  <frosch123> their downsides apply to the alternatives as well, but they were no concern to you
20:39:58  <Wolf01> Time to wreck IH?
20:40:23  <andythenorth> when a consist has different vehicles with multiple subtypes, the menu is so...usable :)
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20:41:34  <frosch123> nielsm: ottd is quite smart with matching subtypes, a lot of stuff actually works
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20:44:07  <nielsm> I should go sleep, night
20:45:38  <andythenorth> frosch123: how about a magic hotkey to toggle 1CC / 2CC? o_O
20:46:05  <andythenorth> if enough silly things are said, one might stick :P
20:46:18  <frosch123> just use palette animation
20:46:54  <frosch123> even V didn't animate the rainbow on the slugs, so you can beat him to that
20:48:56  <andythenorth> taste the rainbow
20:49:18  <andythenorth> user-selectable palette cycle :P
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20:52:45  <Wolf01> Make engine front change color depending on current speed
20:53:09  * andythenorth wonders what var 47 is for
20:53:29  <andythenorth> oh not 47, F2, I misread wiki
20:53:40  * andythenorth wonders what var F2 is for
20:55:19  <andythenorth> oh callback 36 can write prop 25?
20:55:23  <andythenorth> so trains have perm. storage?
20:59:07  <andythenorth> only readable with var 42, not ideal :)
20:59:51  <Eddi|zuHause> (i feel we had this discussion already)
20:59:57  <frosch123> F2 is the persistent storage that is written when selecting a cargo subtype
21:00:36  <frosch123> i have never seen a convincing usecase for prop 25
21:01:32  <andythenorth> it's a weird prop
21:02:06  <andythenorth> anyway, I wanted to set prop 25 when flipping the vehicle, but nvm :)
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22:30:01  <FLHerne> What exactly does nml STORE_TEMP() do [and what's the address range] ?
22:30:19  <FLHerne> (plan B as always is 'read the source', but might as well ask
22:30:21  <FLHerne> )
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22:33:38  <frosch123> you give it a register and a value
22:33:46  <frosch123> it stores the value in the register
22:33:54  <frosch123> you use that to pass values between switches
22:34:20  <frosch123> and to insert parameters into production callbacks and sprite layouts
22:34:55  <frosch123> address range is 0 to 127 iirc
22:35:23  <frosch123> the other half is used by nml to store temporary values in nested expressiosn
22:36:52  <frosch123> you can compare them to stack variables in other languages
22:37:09  <FLHerne> Oh, the "other half" bit was the thing I missed, I think
22:38:12  <frosch123> when you run nml it outputs some statistics at the end
22:38:29  <frosch123> one of those tells you how many temporary registers were used to generate expressions
22:39:57  <frosch123> https://github.com/glx22/nml/commit/065f92a1e553a042a1f7a4745c64f25929573b51 <- search for "sto 1A 20"
22:40:37  <glx> oh nice a free HL :)
22:40:39  <frosch123> they are used to store the results of (...) while evaluating the next (...)
22:41:01  <frosch123> "free" as in, you have nothing to do for it? :p
22:42:06  <glx> https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Storages#Temporary_storage can help too
22:42:32  <FLHerne> Was just reading that
22:43:19  <FLHerne> Are they separate from the parameters that actionD reads/writes?
22:43:24  <frosch123> registers 100-10F are write-only registers for large callback results
22:43:44  <frosch123> yes, actiond is like "static const"
22:43:55  <frosch123> only done during initialisation and then constant
22:44:05  <glx> static but not always conts
22:44:08  <glx> *const
22:44:15  <frosch123> action2 registers are stack variables. only valid during callbacks, discarded after each callback
22:44:17  <FLHerne> I thought so, but "used by nml to store temporary values in nested expressions" sounds like the actionD chains that nml creates to do that
22:45:05  <glx> some nml action D could be done directly in action 2
22:45:49  <frosch123> yes, nml also needs actiond registers for "temporary" values, but technically they are "static"
22:46:41  <frosch123> ok, let's say actiond is like "consteval"
22:46:59  <glx> most of the time I see action D then action 6 for something that could be implemented in the varact2
22:47:07  <frosch123> so, actiond is preferred over action2 whenever possible, since it is only evaluated once
22:47:21  <frosch123> glx: that's optimisation
22:47:32  <glx> but I guess it's also easier to handle param access in only one way :)
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22:54:01  * andythenorth draws some pixels
22:54:11  <andythenorth> expended far too many silly words today :)
22:55:38  <FLHerne> andythenorth: "one grf per roster" sounds like a very good idea
22:55:57  <andythenorth> there is a logic to it
22:56:00  <FLHerne> andythenorth: If nothing else, because a surprisingly high proportion of players don't know about grf parameters
22:56:02  <andythenorth> causes some naming issues :P
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22:57:08  <andythenorth> wonder if I can compile multiple from one repo
22:57:13  <andythenorth> probably
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23:28:04  <andythenorth> :o I could do cargo sensitive engine liveries
23:28:04  * andythenorth never thought of that
23:28:58  <andythenorth> silly andythenorth
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23:31:11  <FLHerne> But why?
23:31:23  <FLHerne> Railfreight with appropriate sector badges? P
23:31:42  <FLHerne> Of course, you'd have to redraw everything in 4x zoom for anyone to notice
23:32:46  <FLHerne> Also, would the engine repaint itself when doing refit-at-station?
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