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Log for #openttd on 9th January 2020:
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02:33:01  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison updated pull request #7914: Town, station and industry directory window sorting performance improvements https://git.io/Jej92
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07:35:24  <andythenorth> yo
07:42:56  <Pikka> yoyo
07:45:56  <andythenorth> Horse freight speeds go like this
07:46:00  <andythenorth> tumty tumty tumty
07:46:21  <andythenorth> (1860) 45mph, 45mph, 60mph, 75mph, 87mph, 96mph (2020)
07:47:01  <andythenorth> 96 seems a bit fast, and from 1930 onwards, it's a forced upgrade of all freight every 30 years, or some trains block others
07:47:08  <andythenorth> so
07:47:27  <andythenorth> (1860) 45mph, 45mph, 60mph, 75mph, 75mph, 90mph (2020)
07:47:51  <andythenorth> and do a big capacity bump in 1990
07:48:17  <andythenorth> I already tried keeping 60mph for 2 generations, and that was boring :)
07:49:26  <andythenorth> it's all getting a bit realism though :|
07:49:39  <Pikka> ya
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07:50:58  <andythenorth> the proposed way there can be 60 years of class 20 :P
07:51:12  <Pikka> yikes
07:51:22  <andythenorth> and I can cheat the 66 so it stays around as end-game loco :x
07:51:39  <Pikka> I ended up not doing the 66 at all :/
07:51:47  <Pikka> I was going to but then I accidentally did a 60 instead
07:52:02  <Pikka> and the 60 is strictly better in OTTD terms
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07:52:03  <andythenorth> if we do livery groups, you can do same stats, different sprite :P
07:56:45  <andythenorth> oh it's computer crash time
07:56:46  <andythenorth> lolz
07:57:05  <andythenorth> BIAB
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08:12:35  <crazystacy> hi, i was here a few days ago but had to leave: hello. trying to set up a dedicated server. trying to install NewGRF things with this link: https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?t=69139 but every time i exit OpenTTD the CFG is wiped. if i add newgrfs manually they are always wiped. i am running it from the terminal. don't have gui acces
08:58:51  <peter1138> OpenTTD saves the config on exit, so if you are changing the config while OpenTTD is running, it'll overwrite it.
09:00:30  <peter1138> I can't remember what happens if the game can't find the NewGRF listed, though. So maybe check you have the addons in the correct directory.
09:15:03  <crazystacy> i change it before running
09:15:14  <crazystacy> i set it, start, close, and it's wiped (newgfx prat)
09:15:31  <crazystacy> someone said to start a game in GUI, with all the trimmings (settings, newgfx), immediately save it, and then load it on dedicated
09:15:40  <crazystacy> aah. so i probably don't have the newgrfs installed
09:16:12  <crazystacy> i mean i can tell there are many dedicated servers out there, wish i could get in touch with one of the hosters. i have a server lying around so i figured i could host something. vanilla works flawlessly but i wanted some newgrfs
09:16:30  <crazystacy> tho maybe there're already too many servers & too few players
09:22:49  <Pikka> you really need a community and/or friends for server hosting to be worthwhile
09:23:02  <Pikka> I don't think anyone's going onto OpenTTD looking for a random game to join
09:24:40  <crazystacy> i do...
09:24:58  <crazystacy> well like i said i have it sitting there. actually i just wanted to host it for myself but it wasn't as str84ward
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09:59:19  <peter1138> crazystacy, where did you put the newgrfs? Did you download them from the OpenTTD console content manager?
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10:12:40  <andythenorth> hmm
10:14:33  <crazystacy> hm, yes
10:14:46  <crazystacy> according to some forum instructions
10:18:50  <peter1138> Yes to the second question, I guess?
10:19:03  <crazystacy> yes
10:19:22  <peter1138> With that, they should be installed. Not sure what the path magic should be, though.
10:19:58  <crazystacy> what on earth. openttd has a terminal video driver?
10:20:19  <crazystacy> or did something else happen. i ran openttd over ssh and it's showing me ascii graphics
10:20:28  <crazystacy> i guess i am a noob
10:20:33  <crazystacy> this is amazing
10:24:33  <peter1138> That will be SDL or Allegro, probably.
10:25:10  <andythenorth> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61-PpWzl_0w
10:29:52  <planetmaker> crazystacy, for servers a thing like console commands to download online content (newgrfs etc) is very worthwhile
10:32:12  <peter1138> That's built in... but adding it to the config isn't.
10:32:22  <peter1138> Maybe it should be :-)
10:32:36  <peter1138> Probably considered TMWFTLB
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11:02:43  <andythenorth> Pikka: I have decided not to (a) delete 15% of Horse (b) rework 30% of it
11:02:44  <andythenorth> :P
11:03:01  <Pikka> fair enough :)
11:03:16  <andythenorth> seemed like overkill as a solution to 'class 66 still available after 2020'
11:11:51  <Pikka> yes
11:11:54  <Pikka> well
11:12:12  <Pikka> I have the class 14 and 37 as end-game locos, so... ;)
11:12:50  <Pikka> 66s are fine
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11:23:32  <crazystacy> planetmaker, yes exactly that happened
11:23:37  <crazystacy> it was pretty nice
11:23:45  <crazystacy> now to create an actual ascii video driver
11:23:57  <andythenorth> class 37 in 2120
11:24:08  <peter1138> Why not?
11:24:12  <peter1138> Is it lunch yet?
11:24:20  <andythenorth> if it's not, it should be
11:24:28  <andythenorth> someone should fix that
11:24:33  <crazystacy> what is Horse?
11:24:38  <crazystacy> i saw a guy named Horse on a hard server just before
11:25:01  <crazystacy> maybe i'm confused
11:26:31  <andythenorth> https://firs-test-1.s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/iron-horse/docs/html/tech_tree_table.html
11:26:36  <crazystacy> is there an openttd-dev?
11:26:54  <peter1138> My washing machine lied. I told it, at 8am, to finish at 12:30. It just altered me that finished 5 minutes ago!
11:26:57  <crazystacy> it's your own train newgrf?
11:27:12  <andythenorth> somewhat
11:27:43  <crazystacy> i like Peasweep
11:27:51  <peter1138> This is where we talk dev, but actual change-related discussion tends to happen on github.
11:27:56  <crazystacy> why remove them, it's nice to have a lot to pick from
11:28:01  <Pikka> peas weep
11:28:06  <crazystacy> ok. i am poking at the code now
11:28:08  <peter1138> Maintenance.
11:28:13  <peter1138> I miss running sounds still, though ;)
11:28:22  <crazystacy> i went on some huge server with 50 newgrfs, and it had 8 boats. pah
11:28:26  <peter1138> Heh
11:28:31  <peter1138> Boats are a bit... forgotten.
11:28:52  <crazystacy> i know you get 999 million suggestions and no one will work for me, but damn, boats are really crap in this game. i mean. i play on the Reddit server, and it's almost impossible to use them at all without getting griefed :/
11:29:02  <crazystacy> but yes i saw that you want to be true to real TTD so i won't complain
11:29:11  <crazystacy> boats are so nice. i wish i could play boats only and actually make a profit
11:29:30  <crazystacy> well i could add that hovercraft newgrf
11:30:01  <crazystacy> the other day i built canals in the ocean to prevent land raising. great right? someone built a lock over my canal!
11:30:08  <peter1138> You can but... yeah :/
11:30:16  <crazystacy> if that is a "bug" i could almost fix that myself just to be able to beat that asshole
11:30:22  <andythenorth> boats are .... possible
11:30:29  <crazystacy> so i ended up canaling, and then raising land around it, and then building roads around the edges
11:30:33  <peter1138> Boats also suffer from the game's built in penalties for using older vehicles.
11:30:49  <crazystacy> then i realised it's cheaper to just build depots or buoys along the entire length of my route, but then i get 10000 buoy signs. and the admin removed it and then i was griefe :D
11:30:52  <peter1138> I mean, obviously that should be different per vehicle class, but it's probably not.
11:30:56  <crazystacy> i love boats.
11:31:05  <crazystacy> also the "too far from previous destination" is a pathfinding problem presumably?
11:31:30  <andythenorth> http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/unsinkable-sam/push/LATEST/docs/html/ships.html
11:31:38  <crazystacy> omg
11:31:39  <andythenorth> ^ that one is not finished
11:31:41  <andythenorth> at all
11:31:45  <peter1138> I should get my server running again, so I can not play it again.
11:31:46  <crazystacy> i guess i should play on coop. i guess no griefing there
11:31:46  <andythenorth> very much broken sprites
11:32:01  <peter1138> I like a very high amount of water to play with boats.
11:32:07  <crazystacy> i like the reddit one because it at has 10+ ppl but a lot of griefing. but that's almost fun too, since you feel like you're interacting
11:32:19  <peter1138> I dislike the reddit server rules.
11:32:28  <crazystacy> hm
11:32:31  <crazystacy> "you have to be nice" is all i remember
11:32:39  <crazystacy> i got a few ppl banned by being whiny
11:32:44  <peter1138> Secondary industry cargo "ownership"
11:32:54  <crazystacy> oh. yeah. well it does suck, but at the same time it's not competitive
11:33:08  <crazystacy> i mean, it sucks to have it stolen on e.g. a goal server, but if it's not, who cares.
11:33:38  <peter1138> Right but cargo is never owned by transport companies :)
11:33:41  <crazystacy> andythenorth, you made those boats? i like them. i like the sailing boat newgrf too. but it has too few. but i do like all the nice names of them
11:34:01  <andythenorth> there's Squid and FISH also
11:34:03  <crazystacy> i really like this one newgrf, dunno the name, maybe SQUID. it has a steam paddler and a hoverthing
11:34:08  <andythenorth> yeah
11:34:10  <andythenorth> that was me
11:34:12  <crazystacy> but i would still like 200 boats
11:34:16  <andythenorth> there's also NewShips
11:34:22  <andythenorth> and there's a Russian boat grf
11:34:53  <crazystacy> i would like to do a Mars Colonisation mod/newgrf/combo. i saw the Toyland->Mars thing. and i downloaded one Mars NewGRF (not amazing). so apparently i can change terrain simply thru newgrfs? at first i thought it was some patch, but apparently it's a copyright problem
11:35:05  <peter1138> Meh, stop eating :/
11:35:08  <crazystacy> wish i had gotten into the modding stuff 10 yrs ago, presumably there were more people then
11:35:12  <crazystacy> who?
11:35:14  <peter1138> (Just had 2 pepero sticks!)
11:35:16  <peter1138> Me!
11:35:33  <peter1138> I want to get back into not snacking all the time again, heh
11:35:42  <andythenorth> as far as I can tell newgrf modding is pretty constant
11:36:15  <crazystacy> i am gonna have to look more deeply into it after my exams (except due to the power of procrastination, i will stop coding and playing openttd 16 hrs a day and go back to doing nothing after exams)
11:36:42  <crazystacy> snacking is nice
11:36:51  <crazystacy> i ate half a kilo of cheese in 2 days
11:37:25  <crazystacy> i really like unsinkable sam. unified look
11:37:54  <crazystacy> there's also a nice leveling-up or tier system with those freighters
11:37:56  <peter1138> Yes it's nice, and self-fulfilling, but also grows my belly :p
11:38:13  <crazystacy> well
11:38:22  <peter1138> Me o'clock!
11:38:28  <crazystacy> do you stop eating if you play openttd?
11:38:37  <peter1138> I don't have time, heh.
11:38:43  <Pikka> https://www.podomatic.com/podcasts/the_goon_show/episodes/2006-12-02T10_25_59-08_00
11:38:44  <crazystacy> omg a mail ship
11:38:54  <Pikka> this means the end of the horse-drawn zellepin
11:39:01  <Pikka> what should I rename av9.8 to?
11:39:11  <crazystacy> i noticed zeppelins for the first time. are they like UFOs in the early game?
11:39:45  <Pikka> there's a disaster zeppelin that can crash on small airports, yes
11:39:48  <peter1138> Without NewGRFs, yes.
11:39:55  <crazystacy> oh
11:40:01  <peter1138> With NewGRFs, you could have one transporting passenegers, or something.
11:40:08  <crazystacy> nice
11:40:22  <peter1138> I recommend the aircraft NewGRFs by a some guy called Pikkabird.
11:40:47  <peter1138> He mayn't :D
11:40:55  <crazystacy> one thing i figured with boats was, somehow cargo rates could be higher, to allow for slower transport, or just faster boats, which is ugly. since "realistically" boats would take forever and are used to transport everything. but i am not here to suggest anything really
11:41:28  <crazystacy> what's the top 5 newgrfs if i just want some extra stuff which fit well with vanilla gameplay?
11:41:28  <Pikka> cargo payment decay rates can be changed for slower vehicles
11:41:34  <crazystacy> really?
11:41:36  <Pikka> and I think they are in andy's grfs
11:41:37  <Pikka> yes
11:42:00  <peter1138> Station penalties still happen though, don't they? Or is that already compensated for?
11:42:16  <andythenorth> Pikka: it's barely worth doing though
11:42:29  <crazystacy> one other thing, in my dark ages i would unload instead of transfer. what happens then? the distance is the same but i don't get that little bit of extra transfer money?
11:42:57  <Pikka> you only want to transfer if you're explicitly taking the cargo further to a final destination
11:42:58  <crazystacy> i would feel good if my boats could keep up with that 40-truck coal train
11:43:04  <crazystacy> 39*
11:43:13  <Pikka> otherwise just unloading is fine
11:43:18  <andythenorth> boats have infinite infrastructure
11:43:28  <andythenorth> so they are the most OP form of transport, if speed doesn't matter
11:43:31  <crazystacy> ah ok, i wondered/secretly hoped that if i unloaded, the timer would be reset
11:43:40  <crazystacy> so i could transport people all over the map on a boat, unload, and then they're "fresh"
11:44:03  <crazystacy> yes that is their one advantage. canals are really nice i realised. i played a bit of "canaling" as a challenge
11:44:15  <crazystacy> i mean, the rivers
11:44:23  <andythenorth> Pikka: av8.9?
11:44:29  <andythenorth> av10.01?
11:44:40  <andythenorth> Zellepin Horse
11:44:43  <Pikka> needs a completely new name IMO
11:44:51  <andythenorth> Wings
11:44:52  <Pikka> zellepin horse maybe
11:45:00  <andythenorth> Big Bird
11:45:14  <andythenorth> Zen
11:45:23  <crazystacy> do you guys play on a specific server regularly ?
11:45:26  <andythenorth> no
11:45:27  <crazystacy> people*
11:45:34  <andythenorth> MP rarely works
11:45:41  <crazystacy> it does for me
11:46:03  <andythenorth> it's rare to find a group of people who can all play at the same time
11:46:14  <andythenorth> playing MP solo, or with strangers is meh
11:46:19  <crazystacy> meh
11:46:24  <andythenorth> and server games take so long to set up
11:46:41  <crazystacy> i guess your playing is next-level
11:46:47  <crazystacy> i just join a server and make a coal line
11:46:47  <andythenorth> all the action is (used to be?) on openttd coop servers
11:47:02  <andythenorth> my favourite game was on peter1138's server
11:47:05  <andythenorth> I made a castle
11:47:17  <crazystacy> was that also coop?
11:47:22  <andythenorth> nah, just peter
11:47:32  <andythenorth> and pikka and pikka's friend
11:47:36  <crazystacy> some guy on reddit server wanted lots of people to coop so we could cover the map in coal lines i guess
11:47:41  <peter1138> It was... limited. Trusted players, I believe.
11:47:46  <andythenorth> 'trusted' :)
11:47:53  <peter1138> I did a co-op with Sacro once. Great fun.
11:48:05  <peter1138> Similar play styles, innit.
11:48:07  <andythenorth> we should play MP with your patchpack
11:48:17  <peter1138> My patchpack is mostly master.
11:48:18  <planetmaker> crazystacy, build canals at sea to ensure your boat routes remain valid and cannot be terraformed away ;)
11:48:25  <peter1138> planetmaker, too expensive.
11:48:30  <andythenorth> just lower land
11:48:31  <Pikka> we had a good GS game or two back in the day, I remember. Sillycon valley.
11:48:33  <andythenorth> canals don't work
11:48:36  <peter1138> Mmm
11:48:38  <andythenorth> Silicon Valley remains rad
11:48:38  <crazystacy> planetmaker, i did that. and yes expensive. but someone built a lock *over* my canal
11:48:44  <peter1138> I still miss cargodest :/
11:48:47  <andythenorth> +lots
11:48:49  <SpComb> my infrastructure sharing game with my friend was a little meh, different playstyles
11:48:54  <andythenorth> I've figured out how to use cargodist though
11:48:56  <crazystacy> how to: build canal adjacent to your "enemy's", raise land, build lock. it will block their canal
11:48:57  <planetmaker> hm, I can build locks on other people's canals?
11:49:00  <crazystacy> yes.
11:49:04  <peter1138> Ooof, yes, I remember fun IS games too.
11:49:05  <crazystacy> not on, but next to, and blocking
11:49:06  <andythenorth> with cdist, just build point-point networks
11:49:12  <andythenorth> don't connect multiple routes
11:49:16  <crazystacy> yeah cdist f*cked me over
11:49:22  <peter1138> I'd really like IS in the main game but I'm too lazy to investigate all the issues :p
11:49:26  <planetmaker> sounds... buggy tbh. I cannot build stations on other people rails either
11:49:29  <crazystacy> what's IS?
11:49:35  <crazystacy> planetmaker, it's possible in 1.9.3 vanilla
11:49:35  <peter1138> infrastructure sharing
11:49:46  <peter1138> actually the version I played was called subsidiaries.
11:49:57  <SpComb> I carefully and meticulously built a neat train network in one corner, and meanwhile they just expanded over the map like crazy with an ugly train network... so I had well under half of the map built out, and kinda ran out of stuff to build without expanding onto "their" side of the map
11:50:07  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: that was like 13 years ago :p
11:50:14  <peter1138> Yup!
11:50:16  <crazystacy> # <- canal   ###  <- add a bit <- #X# place your lock
11:50:16  <andythenorth> recent history
11:50:22  <peter1138> About when I last enjoyed just playing the game ;)
11:50:55  <crazystacy> ah. so multiple companies share the same stuff? is that a patch or you just share a comp?
11:51:26  <Eddi|zuHause> crazystacy: you can do it by sharing a company, but there was a patch that allowed more interactions between companies
11:51:31  <crazystacy> if you want to test edge cases it's on the reddit server you must go
11:52:15  <crazystacy> but it was not added to the main game?
11:52:37  <Eddi|zuHause> no, it had side effects and unsolved corner cases
11:52:52  <crazystacy> but if it was possible to make it good it would be added?
11:52:59  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe
11:53:04  <planetmaker> hehe, you can play with IS on vanilla actually: transfer via oil rig
11:53:16  <peter1138> Yers...
11:53:16  <crazystacy> that's amazing
11:53:35  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: which solves exactly 0 of the issues
11:53:37  <crazystacy> ah but only on the edges
11:53:38  <planetmaker> it even works with cargodist... you bring home the PAX from another company... (or is that fixed?)
11:53:53  <planetmaker> of course it doesn#t solve any issues. It rather illustrates them
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11:55:04  <crazystacy> config.lib is not a generated file?
11:55:26  <planetmaker> iirc it's a collection of functions to test config
11:55:50  <peter1138> How's the cmake stuff going?
11:56:20  <crazystacy> can't figure out where WITH_SDL2 is defined, or...
11:56:38  <planetmaker> grep -R WITH_SDL2 *
11:56:57  <crazystacy> yep
11:57:06  <planetmaker> also !!!WITH_SDL!!!
11:57:22  <crazystacy> never seen that before
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12:16:43  <andythenorth> WHIT
12:17:45  <crazystacy> :|
12:49:00  <andythenorth> eh maybe I could scrap that class 70
12:49:02  <andythenorth> realism https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/119384-freightliner-class-70s/
12:49:08  <andythenorth> I don't like the sprite
12:49:23  <andythenorth> https://firs-test-1.s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/iron-horse/docs/html/trains.html#chimera
12:50:44  <crazystacy> hm, i probably don't know anything, but why declare variables as static in sdl2_v.cpp instead of in sdl2_v.h?
12:51:22  <crazystacy> andythenorth, is that the same as before?
12:51:28  <crazystacy> that's a huge set
12:51:40  <crazystacy> i like the over-sized trucks
12:51:51  <crazystacy> being able to use mini trucks is nice too
12:53:19  <crazystacy> andythenorth, you do model railway? i would love to get my grandfather into OpenTTD. he used to be really into model railways when i was a kid. unfortunately he got into MMORPGs, and now he mostly does that :/ a great shame
12:53:30  <crazystacy> he filled his entire basement with terrain and trains
12:53:40  <andythenorth> I model railwayed when I was younger
12:53:56  <crazystacy> analogue or digital?
12:53:58  <crazystacy> i love that smell
12:54:10  <andythenorth> analogue
12:54:20  <crazystacy> sort of burnt smell from running them too har
12:54:20  <crazystacy> d
12:54:24  <andythenorth> motor smell
12:54:26  <crazystacy> :D
12:54:53  <crazystacy> chimera looks nice
13:13:17  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Oh, that's a 70?
13:13:29  <FLHerne> tbh, I thought it was a 58 :P
13:13:42  <FLHerne> The weird nose lumps don't really show up
13:14:53  <andythenorth> it's whatever you see it as :)
13:14:57  <andythenorth> but it was drawn as a 70
13:15:01  <andythenorth> the radiators flare
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13:43:24  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick opened pull request #7921: Codechange: Use const instead of magic number for vehicle profit threshold https://git.io/Jvvqs
13:49:27  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #7921: Codechange: Use const instead of magic number for vehicle profit threshold https://git.io/Jvvqz
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13:49:45  <LordAro> Samu: noticed that in your commit link from yesterday, thanks for putting that together :)
13:52:02  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro merged pull request #7921: Codechange: Use const instead of magic number for vehicle profit threshold https://git.io/Jvvqs
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14:31:29  <Samu> group statistics now stores 2 last_age_profits
14:31:38  <Samu> but i doubt this will work as intended
14:31:42  <Samu> testing
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14:56:54  <Samu> nop...
14:57:10  <Samu> a vehicle was autoreplaced
14:57:25  <Samu> last year profits became 0 for some reason
14:57:33  <crazystacy> which debug level should i use?
15:23:26  <Samu> seems that it's adding the profit last year of the vehicle-that-replace vehicle, instead of the vehicle-that-is-replaced vehicle
15:23:27  <milek7_> crazystacy: static in C means that variables aren't exported from that translation unit
15:23:33  <milek7_> so why it should be in .h?
15:25:00  <Samu> and the profit last year of the new vehicle is 0, group profit is updated wrong
15:25:15  <Samu> it should inherit profit last year of the old vehicle
15:27:21  <Samu> profit last_year is only carried over to the new vehicle later in the autoreplace command
15:27:33  <Samu> too late
15:28:02  <Samu> what do I do now?
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15:32:23  <crazystacy> milek7_, alright
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15:34:04  <Samu> halp!! LordAro
15:35:07  <Samu> actually glx
15:35:14  <Samu> since he had the idea
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16:24:56  <Samu> i have no idea how to do this, time to give up
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16:29:40  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on pull request #7918: Fix 3c047b1: AIGroup.GetProfitLastYear could get values different than those displayed in gui https://git.io/Jvvsy
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17:42:17  <andythenorth> is the OpenTTD tick rate related to VGA refresh? o_O
17:42:24  * andythenorth reading the Doom book
17:43:13  <nielsm> I don't think OTTD's is, but DOS TTD might be
17:43:44  <nielsm> I don't actually know which mode it runs in, but I think it's 60 hz
17:44:26  <andythenorth> "DOOM’s unit of time is the tic. The value of 35 was not random; it is half the frequency of the VGA mode-Y"
17:45:34  <nielsm> yeah the common mode 13h is 70 hz I think
17:47:13  <andythenorth> Doom book is good
17:47:15  <andythenorth> http://fabiensanglard.net/gebbdoom_v1.1.pdf
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17:48:37  <nielsm> but TT runs in a 640x480 VESA SVGA mode, not VGA mode 13h
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17:55:36  <andythenorth> ho ho
17:55:50  * andythenorth wonders about dusk mode for ottd
17:55:58  <andythenorth> sprites towards rear of viewport are darkened
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18:06:38  <LordAro> andythenorth: something like NightGFX probably easier :p
18:07:06  <andythenorth> we should do more lolz things
18:07:19  <andythenorth> frosch123 once made land hovercraft
18:07:47  <nielsm> can we delete the 8bpp blitters?
18:09:04  <frosch123> i think we disabled them on osx and windows, but they work fine on linux
18:09:26  <frosch123> though my "latest" measurements were with sdl 1.2
18:09:35  <nielsm> win32_v still contains lots of code to manage GDI palettes
18:10:02  <frosch123> hmm, i think win32_v used 8bpp when fullscreen
18:10:17  <frosch123> you know that old CRT fullscreen with change of resolution/video mode
18:10:24  <frosch123> does that still exist in win10?
18:10:47  <nielsm> still possible yes
18:11:05  <Eddi|zuHause> i think that still exists, but gets phased out for "windowed fullscreen" in many modern games
18:11:10  <nielsm> games still use fullscreen modes that may be different from desktop resolution
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18:19:18  <nielsm> okay DOS TTD appears to use 75 hz refresh
18:21:44  <nielsm> I'm very tempted to try writing my own music driver for DOS TTD just to do weird things
18:22:13  <nielsm> like not actually play music but just log timestamps for when it triggers the "play some more notes" interrupt
18:32:38  <Samu> this gives a different perspective about profits https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/7919#pullrequestreview-340119230
18:32:51  <Samu> currently I added vehicle aging devalue
18:34:20  <Samu> adding purchasing costs, hmmm
18:34:46  <Samu> not sure yet how to do it
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18:45:06  <nielsm> I think you'd have to store the purchase price as a new variable on each vehicle, and _not_ subtract it from the stored lifetime profit, but instead have an accessor function for lifetime profit that takes the earnings value and subtracts the sum of the purchase price of all vehicles in the chain (train)
18:45:41  <nielsm> also, are refit costs added anywhere?
18:45:53  <nielsm> it might also be something that should go into the "purchase cost" if not
18:49:08  <Samu> refit costs modify profit_this_year. displaying lifetime is profit_lifetime + profit_this_year
18:49:21  <Samu> so it's already included
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18:50:54  <nielsm> ok
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19:28:59  <Samu> this doesn't feel right
19:29:24  <Samu> we buy a vehicle and lifetime profit is already negative - the cost of purchase
19:29:50  <Samu> then i still subtract devalue due to age
19:31:06  <nielsm> well... that's pretty much adding in the purchase cost via depreciation
19:31:24  <nielsm> which is honestly closer to how real bookkeeping is usually done
19:33:35  <Samu> depreciation
19:34:23  <nielsm> (not to be confused with deprecation, which is mostly a software/technology term)
19:35:44  <Samu> i buy a plane, bang -£50,000 to lifetime profit
19:36:09  <Samu> without even starting the plane and waiting let's say 1 year, it's already at -£60,000
19:36:21  <Samu> this math doesn't seem to add up
19:36:37  <Samu> if I sell the plane now, i gain £40,000
19:37:05  <Samu> net: -£20,000, should be -£10,000 imo
19:37:46  <nielsm> yes if you already subtract the depreciation from the lifetime profit then don't subtract the purchase price
19:38:03  <nielsm> because then you're subtracting the vehicle cost twice
19:39:20  <Samu> I'm confused, I don't know what is right
19:39:47  <nielsm> your method is more correct
19:40:13  <nielsm> it much more closely models depreciation than just subtracting the purchase cost as a lump sum
19:42:22  <nielsm> when a business purchases e.g. a car for its employees to get around in for €100,000, they will usually plan for it to have a lifetime of a certain number of years, say 10 years. the car is then taken as having an investment cost on the books of €10,000 every year for the next 10 years, i.e. it's calculated into the budget for its entire planned lifetime
19:43:49  <nielsm> so it only "costs" €10,000 on the budget for the year it's purchased, and then the car has a "book value" of €90,000, the next year the car will "cost" another €10,000 and now have a book value of €80,000, and so on
19:44:20  <nielsm> and at the end the car has zero book value and zero yearly cost (apart from maintenance, which comes out of a different account)
19:45:14  <nielsm> and this depreciation calculation also has some effect on how the business pays taxes, as far as I know
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19:59:25  <andythenorth> depreciation reduces net profit
19:59:41  <andythenorth> depends on tax regime probably tho
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20:53:43  <spnda> From https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Vehicles#Train_properties, under "visual_effect_and_powered", what is ENABLE_WAGON_POWER or DISABLE_WAGON_POWER?
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20:57:22  <frosch123> it's horrible stuff
20:57:22  <andythenorth> it's a legacy thing spnda
20:57:36  <andythenorth> https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action0/Vehicles/Trains#Visual_effects_and_wagon_power_.2822.29
20:58:06  <andythenorth> it's properties doing multiple things, to save bits
20:58:24  <frosch123> it's an old method to code emu and dmu
21:07:22  <spnda> Ah, so I don't need to care about it I assume.
21:09:18  <nielsm> well if it does exactly what you want, it might be better performance to use than a callback based thing
21:09:19  <nielsm> ?
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21:46:48  <Samu> this isn't easy to do for trains, there's a whole lot of command and operations with trains and wagons, i dont know where to begin
21:47:06  <Samu> lifetime profit
21:48:23  <andythenorth> hard problem
21:48:46  <Samu> seems like im not adding the purchase costs to lifetime formula
21:49:01  <Samu> nor the depreciation
21:50:06  <Samu> maybe somebody with more raw knowledge of how this train code works
21:51:59  <Samu> seems that I have to store purchase price
21:52:47  <Samu> eh... not in the mood for this
21:58:39  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl opened pull request #7922: Improved logic of sharing industry production between stations https://git.io/JvvB1
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22:11:59  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] floodious commented on issue #7920: Purchase land tool lacks by-area https://git.io/JveBj
22:21:23  <spnda> Someone is asking how someone could replace the terrain icons in the generating menu with a NewGRF
22:23:00  <_dp_> just replace some base sprites, no?
22:24:18  <Samu> haha ldpl
22:24:37  <Samu> i had a patch rejected
22:24:44  <Samu> touching the exact same code
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22:26:09  <Samu> https://github.com/SamuXarick/OpenTTD/tree/distribute-cargo-to-multiple-stations-or-industries
22:39:47  <_dp_> lol, yeah, somehow I completely missed it
22:39:54  <_dp_> that pr got completely derailed tho
22:41:22  <_dp_> from simple fix to gs pit of despair
22:44:16  <Samu> oh, its you
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23:09:28  <Samu> i don't know what kind of math magic is that, but I like it
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23:12:25  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl commented on pull request #7922: Improved logic of sharing industry production between stations https://git.io/JvvuY
23:16:29  <Samu> rounding losses is a new feature
23:17:04  <Samu> can you do it without rounding losses?
23:17:13  <Samu> would it add too much complexity?
23:17:24  <_dp_> I just don't see any point wasting time to catch 1/256 of cargo unit
23:17:42  <_dp_> neither my time nor cpu one :p
23:18:33  <Samu> t.t
23:18:52  <Samu> my method doesn't waste any bit
23:18:54  <_dp_> and yeah, I don't know of any way to do it without having a relatively significant performance loss
23:18:55  <Samu> :(
23:19:25  <Samu> i made it so that best rated station gets the rounding extras
23:19:49  <_dp_> lol, after you did qsort there isn't anything to lose anymoer performance-wise :p
23:20:22  <Samu> qsort? oh you're watching the PR that got closed
23:20:55  <_dp_> moving extras to one company isn't correct either
23:21:17  <Samu> https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/compare/master...SamuXarick:distribute-cargo-to-multiple-stations-or-industries?expand=1
23:21:30  <Samu> my up to date one :o i ignored the squared rating
23:21:33  <Samu> that was suggested
23:22:20  <Samu> now it's std::sort
23:22:23  <Samu> :p
23:22:40  <_dp_> rofl
23:23:09  <_dp_> you know you can find max without sorting? ;)
23:25:11  <Samu> i needed to iterate from worst rated to best rated
23:25:24  <Samu> didn't know there was another way
23:26:09  <Samu> total amount was being deducted each iteration, until the last one, the best rated station, get's all the remainder amount
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23:28:59  <_dp_> Samu, I saw what you did, it's just that moving all to best is even more wrong than ignoring rounding imo
23:29:29  <_dp_> even original ignores rounding before in one place to "save" it in another
23:29:58  <Samu> also, what about OWNER_NONE stations? oil rigs?
23:30:34  <Samu> you created slots for like 16 or 17 companies, and included OWNER_NONE, looks weird
23:30:35  <_dp_> handled as if it's just another company
23:31:47  <Samu> that's a bit strange
23:31:50  <Samu> but
23:32:11  <Samu> oh well, hope it gets approved anyway
23:32:19  <_dp_> strange is to have two OWNER_NONE stations compete for one industry
23:32:19  <Samu> i wanted to do something like that
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23:32:58  <Samu> your approach is better, because of that company abuse thig
23:33:14  <Samu> well take care, gonna sleep
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