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Log for #openttd on 13th January 2020:
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00:13:10  <NorwegianBliss> Hello?
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06:18:54  <crazystacy> hm. just noticed that timidity(?) is eating up all my cpu when i enabled music
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07:23:53  <Pikka> o/
07:24:18  <andythenorth> yo
07:24:29  <andythenorth> so my big cdist network is....realistic
07:27:48  <andythenorth> 8 big cities connected by a fast spine
07:28:17  <andythenorth> 7 peripheral small towns
07:28:34  <andythenorth> trams, metro, buses, local trains or ships as feeders
07:29:33  <andythenorth> town growth is nerfed (towns can't build roads, growth setting is 'slow')
07:30:28  <andythenorth> it all works great, except lots of my vehicles lose money
07:30:38  <andythenorth> due to negative transfer income :D
07:31:02  <andythenorth> in some cases, the more I faff with orders to make them travel loaded, the more money they lose :D
07:31:23  <andythenorth> and if I scrap them, there are fewer pax on the network, so my other trains earn less
07:31:36  <andythenorth> Pikka: very realism, transport network effects :x ^
07:32:00  <Pikka> tres :)
07:32:15  <andythenorth> it's like every case study ever about crtitical mass in a metro system
07:32:35  <Pikka> it's still more fun to leave cdist off imo ;)
07:32:45  <andythenorth> I was testing how broken it is
07:32:55  <andythenorth> it's quite broken
07:33:03  <andythenorth> incidentally have you played.... https://dinopoloclub.com/games/mini-metro/
07:33:45  <andythenorth> it's basically cdist, with weirdly unsettling procedural music
07:33:53  <Pikka> not for a very long time
07:35:03  <andythenorth> also lots of Horse trains are losing money
07:35:20  <Pikka> horse seems quite expensive to run
07:36:17  <andythenorth> it is a bit
07:37:50  <andythenorth> I did a big test of costs last year https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/9271/cargo_age_period_test_map.png
07:38:00  <andythenorth> https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/9273/prop_2B_athena_malus_64_cap_normalised.png
07:38:17  <andythenorth> everything is scaled using railcar costs as base
07:38:28  <andythenorth> but only for point-point, fully loaded :x
07:38:46  <andythenorth> I didn't account for transfer negative income or frequent part-load
07:39:53  <andythenorth> so....complicated variable running costs then? :D
07:40:23  <andythenorth> https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=there+was+an+old+lady+who+swallowed+a+fly
07:42:53  <Pikka> simple variable is nice, 1/4 when stationary. makes little industrial shunts viable.
07:45:22  * andythenorth looks at costs
07:48:14  <andythenorth> hmm
07:48:54  <andythenorth> they're betweeen 10% and 50% higher than UKRS 3
07:49:03  <andythenorth> for pretty equivalent stats
07:52:38  <Pikka> hmm
07:53:49  <Pikka> https://i.imgur.com/2Xc0KoS.png if it's any use
07:54:50  <andythenorth> is that manually decided, or a formula?
07:56:12  <Pikka> formula, fiddled til it gave reasonable numbers :)
07:56:23  <Pikka> purchase cost is
07:56:28  <Pikka> 10 + ((Tons * 50) + (HP * 30) / 1500) - ((Intro Year - 1900) / 10) + (Capacity / 10)
07:56:33  <Pikka> running cost is
07:56:36  <Pikka> 10 + ((MPH * 400) + (HP * 25) / 1500) - ((Intro Year - 1900) / 10) + (Capacity / 10)
07:57:01  <andythenorth> https://github.com/andythenorth/iron-horse/blob/master/src/train.py#L569
07:57:09  <andythenorth> looks long, but it's mostly comments
07:57:33  <andythenorth> approach is ~same as yours, magic numbers vary
07:57:41  <Pikka> ya
07:58:22  <andythenorth> so I deliberately scaled railcar costs
07:58:37  <andythenorth> otherwise there is a logical conclusion that all trains should just be railcars
07:58:42  <andythenorth> which is boring
07:58:49  <Pikka> hmm
07:58:53  <andythenorth> but I might have to tweak
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07:59:14  <Pikka> mine uses the same formula for everything. Railcars cost more because of the passenger capacity, but less because they're invariably underpowered
07:59:49  * andythenorth will think on
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08:22:13  <crazystacy> i tried to add japanese town/city names, but it's still the default
08:22:16  <crazystacy> can't change in settings either
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08:41:58  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #7870: Change: improved english tooltips https://git.io/JvJT8
08:42:58  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #7729: Add #7525: Allow autoreplace with same model vehicle https://git.io/JvJTB
09:35:04  <Pikka> crazystacy, activate the grf, then change the town names in "game options"
09:35:27  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] auge8472 commented on pull request #7729: Add #7525: Allow autoreplace with same model vehicle https://git.io/JvJkJ
09:35:36  <Pikka> changing town names is a bit of a faff, but that's legacy TTD UI stuff :)
09:39:08  <andythenorth> 101 in UKRS 99: 80 pax, 600hp, 70mph, £7175 / year
09:39:33  <andythenorth> 101 in Horse: 80 pax, 600hp, 75mph, £8388 / year
09:40:09  <andythenorth> hmm
09:40:10  <Pikka> bingo
09:40:31  * andythenorth can't remember if base cost changes are grf local
09:41:10  <Pikka> I think they are unless the grf contains no vehicles, or some magic like that
09:41:36  <andythenorth> seems I don't mess up your costs with Horse, so that's ok
09:41:48  * andythenorth considers renaming it Horsie-Worsie
09:42:20  <andythenorth> anyway that railcar is my baseline model for costs, so I'll adjust it to match UKRS
09:42:48  <crazystacy> Pikka, i can't change town names
09:42:49  <andythenorth> of the evils, 'printing money' is less bad than 'my sandbox trains make negative profits'
09:42:51  <crazystacy> "japanese" is greyed out
09:42:55  <crazystacy> it's on the top but grey
09:43:02  <crazystacy> oh. i have to change before i start?
09:43:15  <crazystacy> ooh :P
09:43:23  <Pikka> yes, you can't change the town names in a running game :)
09:43:50  <crazystacy> yeah that's what confused me. i didn't know where the not in game game options was
09:44:08  <crazystacy> i never even noticed the AI/Game script button, or Highscore, or anything, until now
09:44:40  <crazystacy> hmm. another question. i am trying to get a really mountainous map with water. so basically just water and mountains. no flat ground. but even with alpinist + high water it's mostly flat fields :/
09:44:44  <crazystacy> and max height is 50
09:45:24  <Pikka> try fiddling with "variety distribution" and "smoothness"
09:46:04  <Pikka> lower variety distribution will give you a more consistenly hilly map
09:46:31  <crazystacy> ok
09:46:43  <crazystacy> i was on this german "hard server" which was basically just hills
09:46:46  <crazystacy> maybe i can get a heightmap
09:47:02  <crazystacy> ah. variety was it. i had it to high
09:47:06  <crazystacy> thanks
09:47:15  <andythenorth> Pikka: buy menu run cost is £7175, when travelling (unloaded) it's £7000, probably fine, but expected?
09:47:38  <Pikka> probably a nfo bug
09:47:51  <Pikka> the 101?
09:48:26  <andythenorth> yup
09:50:13  <Pikka> odd :)
09:50:18  <andythenorth> oof, now my pax coaches are too expensive
09:51:04  <andythenorth> railcar costs same as coach to run
09:51:39  <andythenorth> Pikka: you are very generous with wagon costs :D
09:52:34  <Pikka> hah, HST super cheap to run... there's a bug there somewhere. :)
09:52:42  <Pikka> am I?
09:56:15  <Pikka> oh, no, the HST isn't bugged. I was looking at the wrong number.
09:58:50  <andythenorth> @calc 222/83
09:58:50  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 2.67469879518
09:59:03  <Pikka> just the 101, no idea why. :)
09:59:03  <andythenorth> my wagons are ~3x more to run
09:59:04  <andythenorth> oof
10:02:52  <Pikka> hmm
10:03:41  <Pikka> the 101, 1959 EMU and BREL EMU cost slightly less to run
10:03:51  <Pikka> I bet it's a rounding error with double-headed locos and the callback
10:04:05  <Pikka> yeah
10:04:18  <Pikka> those three all have odd-number running costs, so they lose one
10:04:30  <Pikka> the IC125 and sprinter are even numbers so they're fine
10:08:05  <andythenorth> probably fine
10:08:29  <Pikka> I could bump them up by 1. Or just assume no-one but you will look that closely :)
10:09:17  <Pikka> I wonder if it's not even the callback, if that's a bug that affects double-headed trains in general? :)
10:13:12  <andythenorth> I only noticed because I'm comparing across 2 grfs :P
10:41:16  <crazystacy> hmm, YETI sure is interesting :P
10:53:42  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] sheepo99 commented on pull request #7870: Change: improved english tooltips https://git.io/JvJL4
10:53:45  <Pikka> "interesting" :)
10:55:16  <crazystacy> i think it said you made it?
10:55:25  <andythenorth> V453000 made it
10:55:31  <crazystacy> oh. pikka made something else
10:55:45  <crazystacy> as i said that i bit into a tomato and got juice all over my wall and laptop screen
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10:56:09  <hythlodaeus> howdy
10:56:50  * andythenorth makes Horses cheaper
10:57:59  <crazystacy> which is the grf with actual horses?
10:58:06  <crazystacy> i tried a server like that, it was quite gruelling
11:01:37  <andythenorth> egrvts
11:03:40  <hythlodaeus> I appreciate the people who try to make openTTD an historical game, but why would you attempt to operate a transportation company using only horse carriages is beyond me :D
11:03:46  <crazystacy> :P
11:04:05  <crazystacy> well i really really liked it until i realised how slow they were. if i was going to play a 2000 hour endless game i would want them
11:04:09  <crazystacy> it really adds flavour
11:04:23  <crazystacy> problem was on that server i couldn't even afford a locomotive so i had to start with horses and trams :|
11:04:39  <hythlodaeus> ahah oh wow
11:05:06  <hythlodaeus> so much for the self-starting little man heh?
11:05:26  <crazystacy> but surely industries basically relied on horses 100 years ago
11:05:53  <crazystacy> doesn't make sense to have buses and trucks if you start around 1900
11:06:06  * crazystacy installs egrvts
11:06:25  <crazystacy> i find it hard to decide which newgrfs to use, i'm worried i'll realise later i wnat another and have to start over my epic game
11:06:37  <hythlodaeus> yeah, but there were no mass transportation companies like today
11:06:43  <hythlodaeus> except for ship companies
11:06:48  <hythlodaeus> and trains
11:07:24  <hythlodaeus> so a lot of transportation was handled by business owners themselves
11:07:41  <crazystacy> well sure, perfect for your beer brewing company
11:07:48  <crazystacy> hmm. is there a beer industry?
11:08:08  <hythlodaeus> in openttd? not as far as i am aware of
11:08:52  <hythlodaeus> I can imagine a late 19th century game of trains, horse carriages and ships would be a viable one, but it would resemble reality too much, in the sense that growth would be quite slow
11:13:21  <hythlodaeus> in reality, also, horse carriages would serve a lot of functions simultaneously. A passenger coach would for instance be used for transporting people, mail, and some valuables simultaneously
11:13:48  <hythlodaeus> i don't assume you can have that on openttd
11:14:49  <crazystacy> oh. this japanese theme needs those guys running with carts
11:14:52  <crazystacy> 2 passengers.
11:15:05  <crazystacy> the acceleration is not great on the horses hm
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11:42:30  <Pikka> doh
11:42:32  <Pikka> https://i.imgur.com/4I7igEP.png
11:42:42  <Pikka> more HST farm trains :P
11:47:02  <andythenorth> valid
11:47:29  <andythenorth> but seriously
11:48:12  <andythenorth> much as I'm a slave to absolute realism
11:48:18  <andythenorth> I think we should put in more ways to mess stuff up
11:49:40  <andythenorth> https://youtu.be/emP0en2gtHI?t=61
11:49:55  <Pikka> ah, it's because of the hill, and it overvalues HP rather than TE for hillclimbing ;)
11:50:26  <Pikka> I like at 1:10 where the white train derails before they hit
11:50:27  <andythenorth> the AI knows best
11:50:52  <andythenorth> TE does nothing anyway
11:51:22  <Pikka> if you have freighttrains turned up it improves hill climbing a lot, I think?
11:51:59  <andythenorth> in my test, it's only effective when your train has insufficient HP to maintain speed on the hill
11:52:15  <andythenorth> it then adjusts what the minimum speed your train will make up the hill
11:52:25  <Pikka> which all trains do, if you turn the cargo weight up ;)
11:53:32  <andythenorth> we should add gearing :P
11:53:41  <Pikka> let's not!
11:59:53  * andythenorth running HST and Brush 4 up a 20 tile slope with 520t trains (brake vans)
12:01:21  <andythenorth> now a type 5 :)
12:03:14  <andythenorth> now 2 rats + 2 choppers vs. HST
12:11:52  <andythenorth> hmm HST is much slower out of the depot
12:15:14  <andythenorth> Why Am I Doing This :D ®
12:17:52  <andythenorth> also daylength
12:18:02  <andythenorth> so diesalisation in 1995 game year? o_O
12:19:19  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/website] andythenorth commented on pull request #143: Update: bump all Python dependencies to latest version https://git.io/JvJq6
12:22:25  <hythlodaeus> that lego train crash video is filmed in a way like if it is someone's fetish
12:23:19  <andythenorth> most YT videos are
12:23:33  <andythenorth> or at least the ones that get algorithmically recommended *
12:23:51  <zvxb> i watch your guys youtube vids and i stop wanting to play
12:23:59  <zvxb> your train networks are leet and mine are shit
12:24:04  <zvxb> D:
12:24:41  <andythenorth> my 9 year old looks on my screen and is like "why can you build like that?"
12:24:53  <andythenorth> and I am like "dunno, why *can't* you, what's wrong with you?"
12:25:00  * andythenorth parenting skills
12:25:12  <hythlodaeus> smart
12:25:36  <andythenorth> possibly not
12:25:47  <hythlodaeus> I can't even afford such insane amount of lego tracks
12:26:05  <hythlodaeus> they're quite expensive
12:26:16  <andythenorth> they really are
12:26:20  <andythenorth> unless you want curves
12:26:27  <andythenorth> curves, people give away :P
12:27:08  <hythlodaeus> you can buy fake chinese lego tracks, but they will be differently coloured, and you need to order in bulk to make shipping viable
12:28:32  <andythenorth> I did a lego survey last year, they had specific questions about 3rd party tracks
12:28:57  <andythenorth> it looked like they might be considering how they can allow 3rd parties to solve the track problem
12:29:36  <andythenorth> since they bought bricklink, one of the 3rd party  track sellers has been told by Lego they will be allowed to continue selling
12:29:54  <andythenorth> this is for alternative track parts, not copies of Lego official parts
12:30:54  <andythenorth> https://www.4dbrix.com/products/train/train.php
12:30:58  <andythenorth> still not cheap
12:31:14  <peter1138> Is it lunch time?
12:31:28  <andythenorth> thought you'd never ask
12:31:33  <andythenorth> I've been surviving on cookies
12:31:45  <peter1138> Doable.
12:31:56  <peter1138> Today's lunch is also breakfast.
12:32:35  <hythlodaeus> it's rly tragic, because lego trains are quite affordable considering the prices of actual quality model trains
12:33:05  <hythlodaeus> you pay 100 euros (80/90 if discounted) for a quality train and all necessary power bits
12:33:54  <hythlodaeus> and you got yourself something that can be used and reassembled easily, is highly durable and customizeable
12:34:28  <hythlodaeus> that is great for kids and adults alike
12:34:49  <hythlodaeus> but the track prices rly do kill it
12:34:59  <peter1138> Toys vs models though innit.
12:37:31  <hythlodaeus> models are only affordable by people with way too much time and money
12:38:19  <hythlodaeus> I used to live next to a Marklin store, it's insane the prices they charge
12:38:31  <hythlodaeus> I know all their suff is handpainted but
12:39:16  <hythlodaeus> who is willing to pay 200 euro for a single locomotive?
12:39:42  <andythenorth> people like me
12:40:14  <hythlodaeus> I envy your disposable budget then ahah
12:43:50  <hythlodaeus> but it's why I think projects like openttd are so cool. they allow anyone to have a highly detailed virtual experience of transportation entirely free of charge and that you can modify to your own tastes. and it runs on any crappy computer
12:44:51  <hythlodaeus> with that said, have y'all seen  this https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-50403561
12:46:41  * andythenorth might be accidentally a boomer
12:46:47  <andythenorth> not sure
12:47:10  <andythenorth> although I'm the last year of gen x
12:47:20  <andythenorth> between boomers and whatever the other buzzword is today
12:47:32  <andythenorth> so we're here in the middle, trying to sort all the fricking mess out
12:48:07  <hythlodaeus> last year of gen x is 80/81
12:48:17  <Pikka> doesn't "boomer" just mean "anyone with a more nuanced view of the world than me" these days?
12:48:41  <hythlodaeus> I think he means "that 30 year old boomer" meme
12:49:31  <hythlodaeus> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DiZAKw2XUAQmhQ4.jpg
12:49:52  <andythenorth> Pikka: not sure, I can't keep up :)
12:50:07  <Pikka> that's probably a symptom :)
12:50:25  <andythenorth> hythlodaeus I am 1978 or so
12:50:40  <hythlodaeus> you're gen X then
12:50:45  <andythenorth> I discount 1979 because of younger siblings, who are clearly not gen x
12:51:01  <hythlodaeus> millennials is 81 onwards
12:51:20  <andythenorth> how did that word ever stick?
12:51:35  <hythlodaeus> better than gen Y i guess
12:51:37  <andythenorth> and what happened to gen y?
12:51:42  <andythenorth> gen y is just lost?
12:52:02  <hythlodaeus> no, it's the alternative name for millennials
12:52:10  <Pikka> it's a bit derivative
12:52:14  <hythlodaeus> cuz you got gen z after that
12:52:28  <hythlodaeus> which we just call zoomers these days
12:52:48  <Pikka> people sure do love to categorise themselves :)
12:53:25  <hythlodaeus> it's just a way of better illustrating generational conflict
12:53:33  <hythlodaeus> *a better way of
12:53:40  * andythenorth is confused by all of it
12:54:04  <andythenorth> I first encountered millenial around 2010, as 'people who are entering the workforce now'
12:54:08  <andythenorth> which puts them about 1990 birth
12:54:22  <andythenorth> I fear that 50% gen y are now just lost
12:54:36  <andythenorth> maybe that's the *real* issue
12:54:37  <hythlodaeus> no no, 1990 onwards are zoomers
12:54:41  <andythenorth> oof, so confuse
12:54:44  <hythlodaeus> millennials is 81 to 1990
12:54:54  <andythenorth> millenial was just invented marketing bolllocks in 2010
12:55:01  <andythenorth> I used to work in advertising :P
12:55:13  <hythlodaeus> it's the name that stuck tho
12:55:18  <hythlodaeus> so you gotta roll with it
12:55:48  <zvxb> that whole generation is lost within that time frame
12:55:52  <milek7_> why there is any need for weird categorisation?
12:55:58  <andythenorth> taxonomies are weird
12:55:59  <zvxb> year 2000's was such a huge culture clash
12:56:03  <andythenorth> it's usually just invented to sell ads
12:56:13  <andythenorth> not even to sell product, literally to sell ads
12:57:18  <zvxb> i graduated from high school and hated that shit..  kids sucked..  got made fun of for anything and everything
12:57:22  <zvxb> but even music back then
12:57:24  <hythlodaeus> milek7_:  because social and technological transformations from the 20th century onwards means different generation experience wholly different realities every 10 years or so
12:57:42  <andythenorth> I can write a deck, saying 'generation foo works like this' then pitch for your m strategy account
12:57:52  <zvxb> limp bisket, britney spears, backstreet boys, eminem....  if i choose the wrong genre of music to listen to i'm gay
12:57:55  <andythenorth> then the media planner says 'these are properties where we can buy ads for generation foo'
12:58:01  <zvxb> it's why you have so many emotional fucks from that era
12:58:10  <zvxb> who can't get their shit together into their 30's
12:59:12  <andythenorth> it was all much easier when petrol had lead in it
12:59:45  <andythenorth> everyone was brain damaged and there was no emotion
12:59:49  <zvxb> my grandfather says the same thing about women before rights
13:00:03  <andythenorth> back in my day
13:00:05  <zvxb> rofl
13:00:05  <andythenorth> kids today
13:00:54  <hythlodaeus> beat 'em with a stick i says
13:01:04  <hythlodaeus> put 'em ina burlap sack
13:01:08  <hythlodaeus> that'll fix 'em
13:01:18  <zvxb> i was trying to buy lunch at a chipolte and this mom had 3 kids screaming the entire time...  each one of them had a tablet with games on it
13:01:22  <zvxb> just stfu already
13:01:47  <hythlodaeus> what does that have to do with tablets tho
13:01:58  <zvxb> spoiled kids is all i'm saying
13:02:08  <zvxb> imagine who they'll be when they're older
13:02:16  <hythlodaeus> it sounds more like you just dislike children in general
13:02:51  <zvxb> my mom constantly spat out kids and being the oldest i always had to take care of them
13:03:04  <andythenorth> oof irc-as-therapy :P
13:03:07  <andythenorth> are we licensed?
13:03:16  <hythlodaeus> that's tough bro
13:03:24  <hythlodaeus> I'm sorry for your situation
13:03:26  <zvxb> i'm just a fan of wiping your own ass is all
13:03:27  <zvxb> :D
13:03:29  <andythenorth> peter1138: I shall now describe lunch
13:03:33  <andythenorth> lunch was
13:03:52  <andythenorth> toasted sourdough wheat-free bread (don't ask)
13:03:58  <andythenorth> cathedral city cheddar
13:04:06  <andythenorth> and some kind of germanic thin ham
13:04:22  <andythenorth> stacked in that order, then toasted more
13:04:44  <andythenorth> I don't know if it's a toastie, cheese on toast, or an open toasted sandwich
13:04:45  <zvxb> make me one?  :D
13:04:53  <andythenorth> it might even be croque monsieur
13:04:59  <hythlodaeus> sounds like a fancy grilled cheese
13:05:34  <hythlodaeus> was it real cheddar tho? i can never find that on supermarkets around here
13:05:39  <hythlodaeus> and i love it on nachos
13:05:53  <andythenorth> real cheddar
13:05:58  <andythenorth> from cheddar gorge
13:06:04  <hythlodaeus> sounds pretty good then
13:06:06  <andythenorth> or at least within a few hundred miles :P
13:06:40  <hythlodaeus> i had home made blueberry pancakes for breakfast with real maple syrup
13:06:55  <hythlodaeus> for lunch is leftover bean curry + basmati rice
13:07:36  <FLHerne> Hm, I used to get Cathedral City often, but then I found that Waitrose own-brand is both cheaper and nicer
13:07:41  <FLHerne> (it's much less squishy)
13:07:59  <FLHerne> But right now I have co-op cheddar because Waitrose was closed yesterday :P
13:08:09  <andythenorth> I am not an especial fan of CC, it's just what we seem to get
13:30:01  <peter1138> andythenorth, delightful.
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13:31:07  <Samu> oops there is a bug in savegame conversion in lifetime profit
13:31:13  <Samu> gonna fix
13:31:52  <peter1138> My lunch/breakfast consisted of... two small slices of corn bread (frozen for several months) containing a small slaver of almond butter but not enough to have any flavour over the corn bread... 1 stick of celery, some yellow pepper, 3 sugarsnap peas, 3 cherry tomatoes, 1 spring onion, 1 pack of seranno ham "crisps" (WAY TOO SALTY) and a mug of blackcurrent lemsip-like.
13:33:26  <peter1138> hythlodaeus, cheddar is the standard cheese around these parts, usually in different strenghs.
13:34:08  <andythenorth> peter1138: quite balanced
13:34:25  <hythlodaeus> ah yes, i forgot I was talking with brits.
13:35:21  <hythlodaeus> real cheddar is hard to find here for some reason.
13:35:25  <peter1138> Where is here for you?
13:35:32  <hythlodaeus> the netherlands
13:35:39  <hythlodaeus> i'm not dutch though
13:35:42  <peter1138> I like a strong cheddar. Mild stuff can stay on the shelf.
13:35:42  <hythlodaeus> i just live here
13:36:09  <peter1138> You probably have all manner of lovely Dutch cheese available though.
13:36:20  <hythlodaeus> i don't like dutch cheese
13:36:26  <peter1138> Whereas we just get offered Edam and, if we're lucky, Gouda.
13:36:39  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #7919: Lifetime profit https://git.io/JveOR
13:36:56  <Samu> do i do a fixup?
13:37:17  <Samu> i guess I better do that
13:37:20  <peter1138> If it's a fix within your PR, yes.
13:38:37  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #7919: Lifetime profit https://git.io/JveOR
13:38:44  <Samu> done
13:39:38  <peter1138> andythenorth, also 3 milkybar mini eggs.
13:39:49  <andythenorth> maintains an even strain
13:40:31  <peter1138> Well, somehow I seem to eat more than everyone else here, at least for lunch. :/
13:40:50  <peter1138> Hmm, probably shouldn't've had the sweets. That'll want me eating more.
13:42:24  <andythenorth> ha ha, I now understand openttd waypoints :P
13:42:30  <andythenorth> and path oddness
13:42:45  <andythenorth> if a train has an order to a waypoint
13:42:52  <andythenorth> and there is a depot beyond the waypoint
13:42:57  <andythenorth> and the train goes for service
13:43:21  <andythenorth> it (correctly) doesn't clear the waypoint order
13:43:30  <peter1138> But is it correct?
13:43:34  <andythenorth> but then it sits waiting for a path in depot
13:43:47  <andythenorth> well if it was a station order, it would be correct
13:43:57  <andythenorth> and I'm assuming waypoint orders are just a hack on stations
13:44:28  <Samu> on second though, this conversion is still a bit wrong, it's only a best guess
13:44:29  <andythenorth> but strictly, it did pass through the waypoint
13:45:47  <Samu> when a vehicle is renewed, it gets lifetimeprofits reset to £0, but last year profits are still kept
13:46:16  <Samu> so, on savegame conversion, i can't just equal it to last years profits, just like that, i need to make sure the vehicle is already 1 year old
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13:48:02  <Samu> what is the right thing to do
13:48:03  <Samu> ?
13:48:47  <Samu> lifetime = 0 for savegame conversion to every vehicle?
13:48:53  <Samu> as burty had
13:49:02  <Samu> or do this partial conversion
13:49:09  <Samu> only 1 year old vehicles get converted
13:49:20  <Samu> the others don't
13:49:23  <Samu> or
13:49:38  <Samu> convert all vehicles
13:49:43  <Samu> no matter the age?
13:58:06  <Samu> as burty had, only 1+ year old, or all?
13:58:09  <Samu> vote!
14:02:19  <Samu> imagine a new feature for savegame conversion, players had a choice how to convert some stuff
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14:16:32  <FLHerne> andythenorth: It's not really correct for stations either
14:17:03  <FLHerne> (it doesn't call at the station the first time, but it ought to)
14:22:43  <peter1138> It should, perhaps, delay the service. I dunno.
14:23:09  <peter1138> WHO KNOWS
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14:32:14  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on pull request #7919: Lifetime profit https://git.io/JvJ3W
14:33:49  <Samu> help!
14:33:52  <Samu> help me
14:44:52  <Samu> i need to think
14:45:32  <Samu> i renew a vehicle in august 1985, it inherits last year profit of £100,000
14:46:16  <Samu> at the start of 1986, its last year profit is £120,000
14:46:48  <Samu> vehicle turns 1 year old in august 1986, its last year profit is £120,000
14:46:57  <Samu> this is still wrong
14:47:00  <Samu> damn me
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15:18:18  <planetmaker> not sure we can help you think ;)
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15:48:00  <crazystacy> is there some grf which shrinks all vehicles and so on?
15:49:50  <Samu> https://pastebin.com/h8VDvZyX converting lifetime profit
15:49:58  <Samu> the "right way"
15:50:13  <Samu> is more complicated than I though
15:51:09  <Samu> i should just compare the dates
15:52:16  <Samu> https://pastebin.com/1Y5R2aKk less complex
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16:10:17  <Samu> https://pastebin.com/ztgxjM5K are these comments clear?
16:10:26  <Samu> help me out
16:11:16  <Samu> predecessor maybe
16:12:14  <Samu> 			/* Renewing vehicles resets lifetime profits to zero and
16:12:14  <Samu> 			 * inherits last year profits from their predecessors.
16:12:14  <Samu> 			 * Using their last year profits to best guess lifetime
16:12:14  <Samu> 			 * profits falls into the wrong side, unless the vehicles
16:12:14  <Samu> 			 * have already gone through one entire calendar year. */
16:12:23  <Samu> good english?
16:14:10  <nielsm> the meaning is perfectly clear at least
16:15:49  <Samu> cool
16:15:52  <Samu> but the code?
16:18:32  <Samu> the dilema still stands though
16:18:50  <Samu> if you read the message in the PR
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16:37:02  <andythenorth> oops
16:37:16  <andythenorth> I use a lot of palette colours for magic replace stuff in python PIL
16:37:26  <andythenorth> but sometimes I want to draw with them :)
16:37:37  <andythenorth> let's just say, we won't be having any orange trains :P
16:40:06  <andythenorth> I could probably define my own palette to solve that :P
16:40:32  <andythenorth> all those wasted magic pinks :D
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18:29:02  <Wolf01> https://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/a0R1WeX_460s.jpg lol
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18:44:45  <andythenorth> so when are we solving game progression speed?
18:44:49  <andythenorth> let's not call it day length eh?
18:44:54  <andythenorth> tech tree advancement
18:45:50  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master https://git.io/JvJlu
18:45:50  <DorpsGek_III_>   - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
18:45:54  <andythenorth> I have 30 years between train generations, and I have a fun micro-management cdist pax network, which means blanket 'replace all' isn't the weapon of choice
18:46:08  <andythenorth> it's taken me 35 years to carefully upgrade my 1930 trains :P
18:46:18  <andythenorth> and now the new ones are here, and I still have some 1900 trains :P
18:46:27  <_dp_> merge https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/7791 and call it solved :p
18:47:28  <andythenorth> seriously considering a parameter to just scale intro dates, using 1860 as a base
18:48:03  <andythenorth> or I could just wind the clock back 10 years
18:48:31  <_dp_> can gs cheat date back?
18:48:34  <_dp_> probably not...
18:48:36  <andythenorth> don't think so
18:48:50  * andythenorth considering what makes a good sandbox game
18:49:01  <andythenorth> #1 most useful thing: magic bulldozer
18:49:21  <andythenorth> #1 missing thing: some of the SE terrain tools, e.g. fix broken rivers, build houses
18:50:02  <andythenorth> things I'd kinda like: 'prospect' for all industry types
18:50:14  <andythenorth> the option to grow towns by delivering cargos
18:50:41  <andythenorth> and the progression speed thing :P
18:51:00  <andythenorth> oh I have to keep turning magic bulldozer off, because otherwise towns bulldoze industries
18:51:05  <andythenorth> or was that fixed?
18:52:00  <FLHerne> I think we should just have 'build river' as a non-cheat
18:52:02  <FLHerne> Why not?
18:52:33  <andythenorth> can someone just do an object grf for it?
18:53:42  <FLHerne> I guess so?
18:54:01  <FLHerne> But then you'd have to build canals, and build fake-rivers over them, to make it navigable?
18:54:11  <andythenorth> hmm
18:54:15  <FLHerne> I don't think objects can confer water-ness
18:54:27  <FLHerne> Really, everything should be objects :P
18:56:36  <FLHerne> Objects should be able to specify other map bits,
18:56:51  <FLHerne> So station tiles and waypoints would just be objects with track
18:57:48  <FLHerne> And you could have stations with junctions in the middle if the object allowed that
18:58:48  * FLHerne -> away before propounding any sillier ideas
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19:14:20  <andythenorth> everything is state machines!
19:19:22  * andythenorth wonders how local authority penalties are accrued
19:19:30  <andythenorth> maybe there's a table somewhere, let's see
19:20:57  <andythenorth> ChangeTownRating
19:22:51  <_dp_> andythenorth, https://wiki.openttd.org/Game_mechanics#Local_authority_rating
19:24:10  <andythenorth> yeah I'm looking where I can delete all that :)
19:24:15  <andythenorth> so bored of angry towns
19:27:08  <andythenorth> full sandbox mode, or riot
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19:32:32  <andythenorth> so newgrf tech progression parameter
19:32:44  <andythenorth> pre-defined values on a dropdown?  Or enter an integer?
19:33:07  <nielsm> you could do it procedurally, go to the Town class and delete the company ratings field and try to compile, that'll cause a bunch of errors. delete the code causing those errors, and try again. repeat until you feel done :)
19:33:24  <andythenorth> nielsm: no cyber bullying pls :D
19:33:41  <andythenorth> also that is how I code :P
19:36:24  <andythenorth> basically, if we could extend "Town council's attitude to restructuring" to include "doesn't give a hoot"
19:36:45  <andythenorth> the current option for "permissive" is a very relative description
19:37:03  <andythenorth> "permissive as long as you build all stations before you build any tracks"
19:37:05  <andythenorth> :P
19:37:09  <crazystacy> i am sure you can add some rating modifier cheat fairly easily
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19:37:35  <milek7_> *there is a patch for that
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19:37:55  <nielsm> I think it refers to the acceptable rating level for various types of construction, and not how much the rating changes
19:38:00  <crazystacy> how about some flag you can set which makes it never decrease. ok milek said it
19:38:03  <nielsm> which is way too little effect
19:38:34  <crazystacy> i grew a city from 2000 to 30000 pop, and then they complain when i want to give them another bus station
19:38:43  <crazystacy> oh no no no we want to be a shitty city with zero public transport
19:38:46  <andythenorth> just set acceptable to 0
19:38:52  <andythenorth> :P
19:38:55  <andythenorth> move the floor down
19:39:09  <andythenorth> if I could be bothered to open src in my editor, I could PR it probably
19:39:14  <nielsm> the rating is actually from -1000 to +1000, zero is neutral
19:39:21  <crazystacy> what openttd really needs is god-powers to destroy them when they're whining. there could be a "fear" rating
19:39:33  <crazystacy> the higher the fear, the less the rating matters
19:39:52  <crazystacy> "we don't want that bus station" /me releases plague rats "ok we want it"
19:39:54  <nielsm> does the magic bulldozer let you ignore town ratings?
19:39:59  <nielsm> if not it should
19:39:59  <andythenorth> yes
19:40:07  <andythenorth> but not for construction obvs :)
19:40:10  <nielsm> ah yes
19:41:28  <milek7_> https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6416/getfile/10441/ignore_local_authorities.patch
19:43:36  <andythenorth> hurrah
19:43:39  <andythenorth> is there a PR? :P
19:44:07  <andythenorth> can we have it for 1.10?
19:44:16  <andythenorth> I can't play self-compiled OpenTTD any more
19:44:23  <andythenorth> the FPS is too low
19:44:31  <andythenorth> I have to use official binaries
19:44:46  <milek7_> there was a discussion whether it should be separate setting or integrated into existing tolerance setting
19:44:53  <andythenorth> integrated?
19:45:00  * andythenorth didn't consider it in depth
19:45:04  <andythenorth> just seems obvious
19:45:26  <milek7_> ie. if there should be 'don't care' setting in difficulty.town_council_tolerance
19:45:43  <andythenorth> it's just an extension of the current scale, so should be in the existing setting
19:45:49  <andythenorth> two settings fragments behaviour
19:46:55  <andythenorth> :)
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19:48:47  <milek7_> so then bribing option should be disabled?
19:50:49  <_dp_> bribing is still somewhat useful in case GS messes with rating
19:51:40  <andythenorth> doesn't need disabled, it just won't get used
19:51:55  <andythenorth> someone might report it as a bug, but it's a tidy mind problem
19:52:09  <andythenorth> leaving it enabled is zero-harm, and reduces QA problems
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19:55:55  <nielsm> wow the town council tolerance setting does very little
19:56:05  <nielsm> it only affects removal of roads and bridges
19:56:09  <nielsm> not houses
19:56:13  <nielsm> and not building stations
19:56:19  <nielsm> okay it also affects airport noise
19:57:02  <_dp_> lol, now I remember why it was never implemented xD
19:57:30  <nielsm> and the ratings for road destruction are stupidly close so the setting has very little practical effect
19:57:59  <nielsm> 16/64/112, are the permissive/neutral/hostile min ratings for removing roads
19:58:05  <nielsm> remember the range is -1000 to +1000
19:58:20  <milek7_> andythenorth (2017): This is IMHO a boring thing to add to the core game.
19:58:24  <milek7_> :)
19:58:30  <andythenorth> ha ha
19:58:37  <andythenorth> former me was an idiot
19:59:16  <_dp_> redoing tolerance setting completely would probably be the best
19:59:30  <andythenorth> wow had I been drinking?
19:59:33  <_dp_> add one setting for noise and one for rating that actually works
19:59:36  <andythenorth> https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6416#comment14743
19:59:51  <andythenorth> hmm 06.11GMT, bit early for drinking
20:00:01  <andythenorth> I could have stayed up all night, but I never do so eh
20:00:17  <nielsm> the local authority aggressiveness setting should not be rating thresholds, but affect the rate of change, and for _all_ actions
20:00:50  <andythenorth> oh I think my comment is probably a campaign for newgrf control of towns
20:01:21  <andythenorth> that usually ends up in someone rage quitting, so let's not discuss it :P
20:01:37  <andythenorth> last time it was TB, and we should never make the sysadmin rage quit :P
20:09:21  <milek7_> nielsm: it affects houses too
20:09:34  <milek7_> hm, no
20:09:50  <milek7_> you're right
20:09:58  <nielsm> it's a mostly pointless setting
20:10:28  <nielsm> the least that could be done would be making it more useful
20:11:37  <milek7_> required rating for house removal is specified by NewGRF, it should be multipied by tolerance setting?
20:12:18  <nielsm> as far as I can tell, removing houses checks that your rating will not fall below zero for the removal?
20:13:15  <crazystacy2> i saw in my japanese town set that the stations are animated (more or fewer passengers), i think that's according to how much cargo is waiting?
20:13:25  <crazystacy2> i guess i should quit asking and just look into how newgrfs work
20:14:50  <milek7_> yes, but it specifies by how much it will be actually decreased
20:14:51  <nielsm> also, I think a more interesting approach than outright refusing building any stations within the town could be that at more permissive levels you get some grace allowing you to build small stations (number of station tiles) even at bad ratings
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20:17:36  <andythenorth> I'm 99% certain from my comment that I wanted to make it a newgrf cb
20:17:39  <andythenorth> :P
20:17:53  <nielsm> e.g. at permissive you could always build bus and truck stops regardless of rating, and when your rating goes above appalling you can also build smaller train stations and docks, but both under some restriction of total number of station tiles nearby
20:17:57  <andythenorth> now is the time for someone to interject 'but GS'
20:18:05  <andythenorth> and then we can do the 'but GS is lame' dance :)
20:18:20  <nielsm> where should the cb be on?
20:18:25  <_dp_> but WASM :p
20:18:25  <nielsm> some abstract object?
20:19:17  * andythenorth is assuming there is already a method call on rating when constructing
20:20:07  <andythenorth> there was the rudiment of a town object in newgrf
20:20:14  <andythenorth> I'm not sure how far it got
20:20:58  <crazystacy2> what is GS?
20:21:17  <andythenorth> gamescript
20:22:46  <crazystacy2> i need to learn Dafny by tomorrow at 8 AM sharp
20:23:09  <crazystacy2> but i spent the day coding on openttd instead
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20:50:33  <crazystacy> milek7_, do you know the status of the 3d viewport renderer? :P
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21:01:10  <milek7_> crazystacy: it works i think?..
21:02:45  <crazystacy> is he doing any more work on it?
21:04:47  <andythenorth> nielsm: did you ever PR the industry sub-layouts? :)
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22:57:57  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] bjarnithor99 commented on pull request #7859: Feature #7756: Allow server to supply a reason to kicked/banned clients https://git.io/JvJuM
22:59:53  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] bjarnithor99 commented on pull request #7859: Feature #7756: Allow server to supply a reason to kicked/banned clients https://git.io/JvJu5
23:05:11  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] bjarnithor99 updated pull request #7859: Feature #7756: Allow server to supply a reason to kicked/banned clients https://git.io/JeH2l
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