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Log for #openttd on 9th February 2020:
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02:11:45  <Afdal> Okay so... say I did write a new routine that simply says if(vehicleReliability > somePlayerDefined%) {prevent all vehicle breakdowns}
02:12:09  <Afdal> Would it be necessary to change the reliability display?
02:12:18  <Afdal> because it wouldn't make sense anymore?
02:12:44  <Afdal> change it to something other than "% Reliability"?
02:13:34  <Afdal> Not that it ever made sense in the first place though, since 100% reliability vehicles can still break down.
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07:46:43  <LordAro> Afdal: in theory, probably not
07:47:20  <Afdal> Not necessary to combine it with any changes to reliability rating?
07:48:18  <LordAro> depebds whether you want it to apply to the initial or current rating
07:48:50  <Afdal> current
07:49:10  <Afdal> so that servicing still functions as a mechanic
07:50:52  <Afdal> You know this seems like such a simple and obvious solution to improve the vehicle breakdown system.  I'm really curious if it has ever been proposed and why developers decided against it if so.
07:51:21  <LordAro> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
07:51:32  <Afdal> The way it works now most hardcore players simply turn breakdowns off completely, so it's not like this has to do with preserving the original gameplay of TTD.
07:58:01  <nielsm> there's also the "improved breakdowns" patch:  https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=39518
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08:10:04  <Afdal> hmmmm, that's pretty complicated
08:11:18  <Afdal> "However, because breakdowns are no longer by definition a complete stop, their effects upon a (train) network are significantly reduced."
08:11:40  <Afdal> ehhh, any sorts of slowdowns are about equally bad in really dense hardcore train networks
08:12:21  <LordAro> we've already established thst you're very unusual in that you have "dense hardcore train networks" but also want breakdowns
08:12:33  <LordAro> for most prople, they're mutually exclusive
08:12:35  <Afdal> Your point being :3
08:12:52  <LordAro> *assume i can type correctly
08:12:56  <Afdal> That's exactly the problem I'm seeking to address.
08:13:07  <LordAro> but why?
08:13:12  <Afdal> I think an option to halt all breakdowns above a certain reliability can recover breakdowns as a mechanic for hardcore players.
08:13:19  <Afdal> it's a better solution
08:13:51  <LordAro> most people that build these sort of networks don't want anything interfering
08:14:00  <LordAro> breakdowns or otherwise
08:14:13  <Afdal> indeed
08:14:27  <Afdal> And if they place depots at the right spots, they'll never have them.
08:15:17  <Afdal> The other thing about this solution, is I think it should be quite a tiny addition of code, easily maintained
08:15:30  <Afdal> That breakdown patch is very complicated
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08:16:57  <LordAro> size of change is irrelevant, whether the change is "good" is more important
08:17:15  <LordAro> currently, we (devs) are unconvinced by your arguments
08:17:39  <Afdal> Are you everyone :/
08:18:50  <LordAro> you're right, i shouldn't presume, but no one else has said anything to the contrary
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08:39:27  <andythenorth> Horse 97%
08:39:33  <andythenorth> completion amount reduces :P
08:43:37  * andythenorth wonders about a new breakdown mechanic :P
08:43:48  <andythenorth> train goes and sits in depot for increasingly long periods
08:43:51  <andythenorth> but doesn't block lines
08:43:55  <andythenorth> will never work though
08:44:04  <andythenorth> trains can't find depots anyway
08:44:37  <andythenorth> gameplay idea fails at first obstacle :D
08:46:03  <Afdal> Trains can find depots at about 8 tiles from a path signal
08:46:31  <nielsm> realistic breakdowns, you'll have to wait until a rescue crew arrives at site and this depends on being able to run a second train up to another track next by or a road next by
08:46:33  <Afdal> When I setup servicing complexes for long trains, I build a bypass behind servicing trains
08:46:48  <nielsm> and then have to send another loco out to pull the dead one
08:46:52  <Afdal> so that trains can pass it at full speed while the servicing train is -slowly- making its way into a depot
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08:50:52  <nielsm> (I have once been in a swedish X2 high speed train that broke down on the middle of the line, and we had to wait for a rescue train to pull up on the opposite direction line next by, and then everyone was evacuated into the rescue train
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08:51:47  <dwfreed> in the US, most locos have front couplers, so they could just pull up from behind
08:52:13  <dwfreed> if a full replacement train is not possible
08:52:20  <nielsm> I don't remember seeing a train or loco that couldn't couple from both ends
08:53:32  <dwfreed> they're basically non-existant in traditional rail, but more common in high speed and light rail
08:59:41  * andythenorth wonders what the point of breakdowns is
08:59:41  <andythenorth> it's an extra dimension to newgrf design that I just ignore
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09:02:01  <nielsm> the entire point of breakdowns is to introduce some unpredictability in the gameplay
09:02:27  <nielsm> random event that can affect competition for a resource
09:03:48  <andythenorth> hmm Iron Horse is very boring compared to original base set trains
09:03:55  * andythenorth rethinks
09:04:30  <andythenorth> so breakdowns are unpredictable events
09:04:36  <andythenorth> but vehicle reliability is designed to force upgrades afaict
09:04:46  <nielsm> yeah that's one thing
09:04:59  <nielsm> and make models that otherwise have good specs less desirable
09:05:10  <andythenorth> it's interesting in original base set
09:05:21  <andythenorth> there is barely any logical progression in original base trains
09:05:37  <andythenorth> it's just a random assortment of engines
09:05:37  <nielsm> when it works it arrives much faster than the alternative, but it's massively delayed 30% of the time
09:06:23  <andythenorth> original trains make sense on small maps, where money is very constrained
09:06:36  <andythenorth> the win condition is "I can finally afford enough power"
09:06:45  <andythenorth> also the original physics model where hills aren't viable
09:07:01  * andythenorth considering redesigning Horse
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09:07:28  <nielsm> yep hills and any turns are murder in original
09:07:41  <andythenorth> this is all so organised and dull https://firs-test-1.s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/iron-horse/docs/html/tech_tree_table_red.html
09:07:48  <andythenorth> trains are grouped by role, speed, power
09:07:59  <andythenorth> progression every 30 years apart from a few randoms
09:08:56  <andythenorth> or maybe not scrap this, but a new roster
09:09:05  <andythenorth> one which makes no sense
09:09:18  <andythenorth> and is designed to be used with breakdowns on
09:16:25  <Afdal> Designed in what way?
09:16:34  <Afdal> Trains have really high power or something?
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09:22:37  <andythenorth> wide reliability spread
09:22:51  <andythenorth> highly variable between model types
09:23:00  <andythenorth> and multiple overlapping model types
09:23:08  <andythenorth> to force using the reliable version
09:23:30  <andythenorth> oof 'forcing' anything in newgrf is such a terrible design decision
09:24:56  <Afdal> andy you've been a developer for a while
09:25:08  <andythenorth> somewhat
09:25:25  <Afdal> Hasn't anyone proposed a simple semi-deterministic approach to breakdown mechanics before?
09:25:45  <Afdal> Where if reliability % is above some level vehicles simply don't break down
09:25:51  <andythenorth> the breakdown patches I'm aware of focus on things like 'keep driving but reduced power'
09:25:56  <andythenorth> or multi-engine breakdowns
09:26:17  <andythenorth> I'm not aware of a threshold
09:26:37  <andythenorth> seems difficult to communicate though, what would be the chance of breakdown if not the % reliability?
09:26:58  <andythenorth> hmm, maybe it shouldn't be random, but determistic
09:27:03  <Afdal> well it's never been 1-to-1 there
09:27:06  <Afdal> or has it?
09:27:10  <andythenorth> a vehicle with 85% reliability should be stopped 15% of the time
09:27:12  <Afdal> 100% = still breaks down
09:27:15  <andythenorth> or lose 15% of power
09:27:29  <andythenorth> replace the random with deterministic
09:27:41  <andythenorth> train just stops for 15% of days in month
09:27:48  <Afdal> lol
09:28:05  <andythenorth> or just apply 0.85 * power and 0.85 * vmax
09:28:22  <Afdal> :3
09:29:05  <andythenorth> that would be like station rating and industry cargo
09:29:23  <andythenorth> I *always* forget that I only get 63% of the production cargo amount :P
09:29:34  <Afdal> huhwhah?
09:29:54  <Afdal> You get 93% at max rating with 2+ year old vehicles
09:30:13  <andythenorth> 63% was an example ;)
09:30:17  <andythenorth> based on how I usually play
09:30:35  <Afdal> that's a mechanic people simply have to look up to understand
09:31:07  <andythenorth> I rarely get more than 70% FWIW
09:31:07  <Afdal> how station ratings work and how they affect output growth probability, in particular
09:31:17  <andythenorth> building statues and all that crap, who cares :D
09:31:41  <Afdal> Sometimes what I like to do is
09:31:53  <nielsm> individual train cars should have reliability, the train can't depart because one of the coaches couldn't close doors
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09:32:27  <Afdal> make little transfer setups for industries I'm planning to connect in the far future.  The transfer setups burn money to keep the ratings up to increase industry output while I"m not using them.
09:33:03  <andythenorth> wow statue really does make a difference
09:33:08  <andythenorth> quite quickly too
09:33:09  <andythenorth> what lolz
09:33:09  <Afdal> yeah 7% boyo
09:33:13  <Afdal> or is it 10%
09:33:15  <andythenorth> wiki says 10%
09:33:28  <andythenorth> that's nice in tiny original ttd maps
09:33:36  <andythenorth> but also so stupid
09:33:46  <andythenorth> in OpenTTD land
09:33:54  <Afdal> I don't mind it
09:34:01  <Afdal> because I'm the only one who knows about it usually ;y
09:34:50  <nielsm> in the original game you could build any number of statues in a town
09:34:52  <andythenorth> oh I could just do advertising campaigns
09:35:06  <andythenorth> can I have an AI that just auto-builds all this crap?
09:35:13  <nielsm> only the first one provided a bonus, the remaining just replaced buildings ruining passenger production in the town
09:35:22  <andythenorth> if only there was a newgrf that nerfed station ratings :P
09:35:43  <Afdal> ad campaigns only work on stuff near the town center though
09:36:03  <Afdal> only statues can affect far away industries associated with the town
09:36:04  <andythenorth> FIRS used to have an option to just set all station ratings to 100%
09:36:08  <andythenorth> can't remember why I removed it :D
09:37:03  <andythenorth> https://github.com/andythenorth/firs/commit/752a5abed2ce2670b55b56378a4ec77f56dddd45
09:37:28  <Afdal> The only quirk about station ratings that I'm not fond of is the max vehicle speed part of calculation
09:37:39  <nielsm> https://0x0.st/iiFk.jpg
09:37:48  <andythenorth> lol @ nielsm
09:37:52  <andythenorth> what rating? o_O
09:37:56  <andythenorth> 200%?
09:38:23  <Afdal> Means basically every newGRF should have a 256 km/h vehicle available at some point if it ever wants maximum station rating to be possible
09:38:36  <andythenorth> 'super'
09:39:08  <andythenorth> also the age thing
09:39:25  <andythenorth> constant auto-renew :P
09:39:46  <Afdal> I don't mind the age mechanic, it's only 7%
09:39:54  <Afdal> If you want that extra dosh you gotta work for it!
09:40:25  <andythenorth> with cdist, the goal for pax stations is lower rating not higher :P
09:40:42  <andythenorth> as most pax cargo will be transfers
09:40:52  <andythenorth> and station is otherwise overwhelmed
09:53:23  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro updated pull request #7987: Update: Prepare for 1.10.0-RC1 https://git.io/Jvnbm
09:53:53  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #7987: Update: Prepare for 1.10.0-RC1 https://git.io/Jvckm
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10:01:55  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7987: Update: Prepare for 1.10.0-RC1 https://git.io/JvckR
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10:07:53  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7981: Feature #7735: Implement protocol handling https://git.io/Jvcki
10:09:25  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/website] LordAro opened pull request #148: Add: 1.10.0-RC1 release announcement https://git.io/JvckX
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10:48:50  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro updated pull request #7987: Update: Prepare for 1.10.0-RC1 https://git.io/Jvnbm
11:21:39  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison opened issue #7988: Memory leak: Depot::name is not freed in destructor https://git.io/JvcIF
11:29:27  <SpComb> isn't the 1.10 release only due in just under two months? :)
11:35:32  <LordAro> SpComb: something like that
11:36:21  <Wolf01> So, drag&drop in steam library to put games into categories is nice... if only the categories page was scrollable while you are dragging the game...
11:36:44  <LordAro> SpComb: 2 months should be plenty of time
11:36:49  <LordAro> might even get an RC2 in
11:37:31  <Eddi|zuHause> so now is the time to merge stuff for 1.11?
11:38:09  <LordAro> perhaps wait until we've actually done RC1, but in theory yes
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11:43:02  <LordAro> #7988 is trivial fix
11:43:50  <LordAro> does require backporting though :)
11:45:25  <frosch123> i am not up for the challenge, are you?
11:45:29  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro opened pull request #7989: Fix #7988: Memory leak when using custom depot names https://git.io/JvcL8
11:45:40  <LordAro> frosch123: does that answer your question? :)
11:50:13  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 approved pull request #7989: Fix #7988: Memory leak when using custom depot names https://git.io/JvcL0
11:50:36  <frosch123> hmm, i think there are numerous leaks when CleaningPool
11:51:30  <nielsm> more std::strings except that the weird memory allocations the pools do might be invoking UB
11:51:42  <nielsm> when the pooled objects are not POD
11:52:00  <frosch123> hmm, nvm, the cases i thought of were ok
11:52:10  <LordAro> nielsm: mm
11:53:01  <frosch123> i think you can get rid of the pool weird magic, variadic templates make stuff a lot easier
11:53:59  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 approved pull request #7987: Update: Prepare for 1.10.0-RC1 https://git.io/JvcLo
11:55:11  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro updated pull request #7987: Update: Prepare for 1.10.0-RC1 https://git.io/Jvnbm
11:55:11  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro dismissed a review for pull request #7987: Update: Prepare for 1.10.0-RC1 https://git.io/JvcLo
11:55:17  <LordAro> might as well shove it into rc1 :)
11:55:26  <LordAro> yay for needlessly duplicated commits!
11:56:27  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 approved pull request #7987: Update: Prepare for 1.10.0-RC1 https://git.io/JvcL1
11:56:31  <frosch123> you didn't add it to the changelog
11:56:56  <LordAro> i didn't think it necessary
11:58:33  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro merged pull request #7989: Fix #7988: Memory leak when using custom depot names https://git.io/JvcL8
11:58:34  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro closed issue #7988: Memory leak: Depot::name is not freed in destructor https://git.io/JvcIF
11:58:35  <nielsm> like, it's theoretically a DoS'able bug: connect to a server, build, rename, destroy depots repeatedly, disconnect and quit to clean your client, reconnect and continue
11:58:57  <nielsm> if I understand it
11:59:20  <LordAro> urgh
11:59:31  <LordAro> *technically*, i guess
11:59:53  <LordAro> but this isn't OpenSSL, we don't have to provide advisory notices on every single problem
12:00:29  <LordAro> and given the maximum length of a depot name is 32 chars...
12:00:29  <nielsm> and servers with admins monitoring it would also catch that weird behaviour
12:00:36  <nielsm> slow burn
12:00:55  <LordAro> i think you'd get memory usage up an awful lot faster by just playing the game :p
12:01:08  <LordAro> sure it wouldn't then be leaked, but...
12:01:33  <LordAro> so, title game competition?
12:01:38  <LordAro> who wants to run that?
12:01:44  <LordAro> or shall we ask Kamnet again?
12:02:35  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro merged pull request #7987: Update: Prepare for 1.10.0-RC1 https://git.io/Jvnbm
12:02:52  <LordAro> tag?
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12:27:31  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro created new tag: 1.10.0-RC1 https://git.io/Jvctr
12:27:33  <LordAro> tag.
12:29:27  <LordAro> https://dev.azure.com/openttd/OpenTTD/_build/results?buildId=5425&view=results CI here
12:31:02  <frosch123> kamnet wasn't particular involved last year, was he?
12:33:47  <LordAro> thought he ran the competition last year?
12:34:44  <LordAro> https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=84827 yup
12:35:07  <frosch123> scroll down
12:35:16  <frosch123> he made the post, the rest did pm
12:35:23  <LordAro> ah
12:35:50  <frosch123> i have no idea what the original plan was
12:36:03  <frosch123> but i don't think it went as planned
12:43:30  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe there should be a theme or something?
12:43:45  <LordAro> "not crashin"
12:43:48  <LordAro> +g
12:43:55  <LordAro> can't really use NRT
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12:44:20  <nielsm> yeah it's a shame one of the major new features can't be showcased
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12:45:22  <nielsm> again thinking of a moving camera title screen
12:45:31  <Eddi|zuHause> we need to quickly implement newgrf utopia, so title screen can use newgrfs :p
12:46:52  <LordAro> nielsm: too late, feature freeze now :p
12:46:59  <nielsm> yep
12:47:25  <LordAro> i had a hacky patch somewhere that moved the viewport around based on signs
12:47:35  <nielsm> that's what I'm thinking too
12:47:52  <nielsm> just signs 1, 2, 3, etc
12:47:55  <LordAro> https://github.com/LordAro/OpenTTD/commit/fe202045c7dd193abeabb0887fdc3dac590c250b
12:47:59  <Samu> hi
12:48:22  <nielsm> maybe with additional data like duration to stay on that point, or whether to pan the camera
12:48:26  <nielsm> or changing zoom
12:48:51  <LordAro> i think there are some existing functions for panning the viewport
12:49:47  <Eddi|zuHause> the "scrollto" command would come to mind
12:57:13  <LordAro> someone want to approve & merge the website post?
12:58:53  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/website] nielsmh approved pull request #148: Add: 1.10.0-RC1 release announcement https://git.io/Jvcq2
12:59:26  <nielsm> oh I apparently can't really approve things on website
12:59:41  <LordAro> ha
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13:08:24  <frosch123> hmm,yeah, i guess core should also get website access then
13:09:43  <frosch123> nice, it doesn't even need re-approval
13:10:55  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/website] nielsmh merged pull request #148: Add: 1.10.0-RC1 release announcement https://git.io/JvckX
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13:34:17  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/website] LordAro created new tag: 1.3.1 https://git.io/Jvcmw
13:40:39  <nielsm> the website is updated now
13:40:45  <nielsm> time to post on forum and such?
13:40:51  <LordAro> probably
13:41:16  <nielsm> 1.10 is a huge release
13:46:11  <frosch123> @topic set 1 1.10.0-RC1, 1.9.3
13:46:12  *** DorpsGek changes topic to "1.10.0-RC1, 1.9.3 | Website: *.openttd.org (source: github, translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version, 'Most recent' neither | English only"
13:46:52  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/website] LordAro commented on issue #117: There's a couple of layouting/responsiveness issues in the OpenTTD website. https://git.io/Jed55
13:46:52  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/website] LordAro closed issue #117: There's a couple of layouting/responsiveness issues in the OpenTTD website. https://git.io/Jed55
13:46:56  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/website] LordAro reopened issue #117: There's a couple of layouting/responsiveness issues in the OpenTTD website. https://git.io/Jed55
14:01:21  <peter1138> Wolf01, interesting, when you redeem a Humble Choice game, if it has extra DLC you need to go back into the Humble Bundle Keys area to grab them separately.
14:01:28  <peter1138> Just found a bit of DLC to add :p
14:02:59  <Wolf01> Yeah, frostpunk
14:04:24  <peter1138> And I found an expired unused key :(
14:05:21  <nielsm> posted https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=86663
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14:31:08  <andythenorth> yo
14:32:15  <andythenorth> so much stuff in 1.10
14:45:58  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] stormcone updated pull request #7886: Group management enhancements https://git.io/JeAdk
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16:26:04  <peter1138> Is there?
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16:42:23  <nielsm> https://jfs.users.tt-forums.net/  <-- updated!
16:42:28  <nielsm> after about 15 years
16:42:58  <nielsm> originally uploaded the files in august 2005, as far as I can tell
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16:58:13  <nielsm> nope 2004
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17:30:12  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh requested changes for pull request #7822: Fix #7670: Cache the origin tile to prevent recurring calls to the road pathfinder when a vehicle is blocked by another https://git.io/JvcZs
17:32:03  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #7670: Road vehicle pathing cache does not always pick up changes in road network https://git.io/fjyVR
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17:39:04  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #7958: Roadtype catenary not shown over bridges https://git.io/Jvqnp
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18:15:42  <andythenorth> Horse 97%
18:15:44  <andythenorth> the lolz
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18:43:00  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #7958: Roadtype catenary not shown over bridges https://git.io/Jvqnp
18:43:23  <LordAro> nielsm: i was literally about to post the same segment of code :)
18:43:36  <nielsm> :D
18:44:17  <LordAro> though i was suspecting a c&p error with the duplication of SPR_TRAMWAY_BASE for both road & tram
18:44:26  <LordAro> looks like you got a bit further than me
18:45:50  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master https://git.io/Jvcnp
18:45:50  <DorpsGek_III>   - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
18:46:01  <nielsm> good, late translations
18:46:26  <nielsm> I hope someone has the translations backport script functional and ready
18:47:11  <LordAro> i think i ran it last time
18:47:23  <LordAro> was expecting to have to do it before the actual release anyway
18:47:28  <LordAro> probably not worth doing it before
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18:53:22  <Samu> nielsm, #7822 - i don't think it needs to be saved, though I'm not totally sure
18:55:14  <Samu> the difference should be now that it doesn't have to repeat the pathfinder search to get the same result
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18:57:18  <Samu> hmm be back later
18:59:46  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro opened pull request #7990: Codechange: Don't fail configure if SDL2 is not detected https://git.io/JvccG
19:01:16  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #7946: Fix #7944: Demolishing locks built on rivers didn't always restore the river https://git.io/JvccC
19:01:44  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #7946: Fix #7944: Demolishing locks built on rivers didn't always restore the river https://git.io/JvccW
19:08:39  <nielsm> ok looks like my first refactoring was successful https://0x0.st/i--K.png
19:08:45  <nielsm> (everything looks the same)
19:09:27  <andythenorth> :)
19:21:34  <nielsm> well.,.. https://0x0.st/i--S.png
19:21:42  <nielsm> I'm not sure why exactly but it looks fixex
19:22:43  <nielsm> ah, right
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19:25:01  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #7970: Crash in crash handler - Assertion failed at line 2981 of window.cpp https://git.io/JvsUh
19:26:20  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh opened pull request #7991: Fix #7958: Custom catenary missing on road bridges https://git.io/JvcCU
19:27:25  <nielsm> oh oops
19:27:31  <nielsm> got too many changes into that
19:28:10  <LordAro> ha, nice
19:29:26  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh updated pull request #7991: Fix #7958: Custom catenary missing on road bridges https://git.io/JvcCU
19:33:06  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #7991: Fix #7958: Custom catenary missing on road bridges https://git.io/JvcCG
19:34:39  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh updated pull request #7991: Fix #7958: Custom catenary missing on road bridges https://git.io/JvcCU
19:35:05  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick dismissed a review for pull request #7946: Fix #7944: Demolishing locks built on rivers didn't always restore the river https://git.io/JvccC
19:35:05  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #7946: Fix #7944: Demolishing locks built on rivers didn't always restore the river https://git.io/JvTHm
19:35:51  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #7946: Fix #7944: Demolishing locks built on rivers didn't always restore the river https://git.io/JvcC8
19:39:38  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #7972: Impossible orders silently fail to be copied and have their sharing settings fully protected. https://git.io/JvGub
19:40:08  <frosch123> nielsm: is changing || to && the only change?
19:40:32  <nielsm> yes
19:40:58  <nielsm> I just included the refactor since that was that initial step that made me notice where it was going wrong
19:41:22  <frosch123> but doesn't it draw garbage sprites now?
19:41:44  <frosch123> the issue is that the grf only provides half of the sprites, right?
19:42:13  <nielsm> if the grf only provides front or back, then nothing is used for the missing
19:42:38  <nielsm> exactly like for non-bridge roads
19:43:05  <frosch123> doesn't it draw sprite 23? which should trigger a warning about trying to draw a character glyph for a sprite?
19:43:14  <nielsm> oh...
19:43:29  <nielsm> hm yeah I missed that part
19:45:48  <frosch123> anyway, it's new to me that a grf is allowed to provide only front or back... but well all of nrt is undocumented
19:46:15  <nielsm> https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/blob/master/src/road_cmd.cpp#L1410-L1412
19:47:11  <peter1138> I imagine it should always provide both?
19:47:15  <peter1138> Document it as such.
19:47:19  <frosch123> nielsm: now also look at tunnels
19:49:52  <nielsm> tunnel only uses the front catenary for roads
19:49:58  <nielsm> apparently
19:50:06  <nielsm> doesn't even bother to check the back catenary
19:50:27  <frosch123> and bridge heads?
19:50:40  <nielsm> handled by the same code I fixed
19:50:51  <frosch123> ah right
19:52:26  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh updated pull request #7991: Fix #7958: Custom catenary missing on road bridges https://git.io/JvcCU
19:52:57  <peter1138> 4 players on my server o_O
19:53:05  <peter1138> And not me :p
19:53:11  <nielsm> should I switch the two cases in the if around to match the ground road code?
19:55:53  <andythenorth> frosch123: this much is documented :P https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action0/Roadtypes
19:56:13  <andythenorth> and https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Roadtypes
19:56:17  <frosch123> andythenorth: yes, in know, pm send a noobie to paste random stuff into the specs
19:56:25  <frosch123> that was definitely a big help </sarcasm>
19:56:32  <andythenorth> I might have encouraged that also :P
19:56:33  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh merged pull request #7946: Fix #7944: Demolishing locks built on rivers didn't always restore the river https://git.io/JvTHm
19:56:34  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh closed issue #7944: Demolishing a lock built on a river with rocky land does not restore the river https://git.io/JvT9g
19:56:35  <andythenorth> sorry
19:56:52  <frosch123> anyway, i won't do any nrt stuff anymore
19:56:59  <frosch123> if noone cares, i cannot be solved
19:58:01  <peter1138> Hi
19:58:06  <peter1138> What needs doing
19:59:26  <nielsm> merge cmake?
20:02:18  <LordAro> fix pathfinders?
20:02:28  <LordAro> document nrt, apparently
20:02:51  <nielsm> also https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/7248
20:03:52  <LordAro> how about #7000? :p
20:04:09  <nielsm> I don't have the wisdom for #7000
20:04:19  <LordAro> i'm not sure anyone does
20:05:22  <frosch123> just close it
20:05:30  <frosch123> i did not see a newgrf that wants to use it
20:05:37  <frosch123> apis without users are pointless
20:08:32  <andythenorth> for 7000 I have a use for the singular change to railtypes
20:08:33  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 commented on pull request #7000: Some NewGRF variables concerning railtypes https://git.io/JvcWJ
20:08:33  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 closed pull request #7000: Some NewGRF variables concerning railtypes https://git.io/fhI7h
20:08:39  <andythenorth> but the rest is grown too large to comment
20:09:02  <andythenorth> var 6A would fix a bunch of Horse bug reports
20:09:10  <andythenorth> but the rest I just don't know
20:09:33  <nielsm> make a new PR extracting just that one var then?
20:10:33  <andythenorth> the bug is https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1228866#p1228866
20:10:38  <andythenorth> reported multiple times in different ways
20:10:59  <andythenorth> Horse can only reasonably check ELRL without this var 0x63 (was 6A in the original PR)
20:11:21  <andythenorth> I've been ignoring the bug reports, so I'm potato / potato
20:19:25  <nielsm> peter1138: I found something for you to do! sticky and unsticky some threads on tt-forums
20:19:34  <nielsm> the rc1 release thread
20:24:14  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 commented on pull request #7991: Fix #7958: Custom catenary missing on road bridges https://git.io/JvcWn
20:24:20  <frosch123> ^^ that's the issue with nrt
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20:25:09  <frosch123> multiple people changed whatever they talked about for 15 minutes in irc, changed it only in some places, made it all inconsistent, and did not even state their intentions
20:25:29  <frosch123> honestly if all of jgrpp got squashed, you would have less issues
20:26:15  <Samu> there is no savegame title now?
20:26:56  <LordAro> Samu: ...are you going to elaborate?
20:27:45  <Samu> testing a debug build, i see a water backgroun in main menu
20:28:01  <LordAro> that's... not expected
20:28:07  <LordAro> nor is it what i'm seeing
20:28:31  <Samu> oh, it works now
20:28:33  <Samu> weird
20:28:45  <nielsm> how messy does it look if both road and tram has catenary? and two different kinds of catenary?
20:29:44  <frosch123> ask Wolf01, andythenorth and peter1138
20:30:00  <frosch123> or whoever merged that pr
20:32:08  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #7822: Fix #7670: Cache the origin tile to prevent recurring calls to the road pathfinder when a vehicle is blocked by another https://git.io/JegbJ
20:32:41  <Samu> visual studio just being messed up
20:33:06  <Samu> tell me if I got the savegame stuff correctly
20:33:08  <andythenorth> so the bug is that bridges don't draw both catenaries?
20:33:16  <andythenorth> or bridges can't, and the bug is in the spec?
20:33:32  <Samu> I still think it doesn't need to save those new members
20:33:53  <nielsm> andythenorth no the bug is that bridges only draw nrt catenary if the newgrf provides _both_ front and back, while ground road draws nrt catenary if it provides either
20:34:16  <andythenorth> there's also a bug in the docs in newgrf wiki vs. frosch wiki
20:34:25  <nielsm> and then frosch123 points out that bridges only draw one of road or tram catenary, while ground road draws both road and tram catenary
20:35:09  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick dismissed a review for pull request #7947: Fix #7945: Add cost of clearing the sloped tile when placing a dock https://git.io/Jvkbr
20:35:09  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #7947: Fix #7945: Add cost of clearing the sloped tile when placing a dock https://git.io/JvTH0
20:36:09  <LordAro> ideally i don't think you'd be able to have road w/ catenary & tram w/ catenary on the same tile
20:36:19  <LordAro> but maybe it's too late for that
20:37:27  <nielsm> yes it sounds like a bad idea
20:37:43  <frosch123> yes that issue was known 3 years ago
20:38:02  <frosch123> same with the other issue you found last week, whether you should be able to build roat without vehiceles
20:38:48  <frosch123> https://wiki.openttd.org/Frosch/NotRoadTypes#ToDo_list https://wiki.openttd.org/Frosch/ButGroundTypes <- you can find other known issues there
20:39:00  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #7919: Lifetime profit https://git.io/JveOR
20:39:14  <frosch123> ultimatively someone has to review whatever was commited, and write a spec what it should actually do
20:40:31  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #7918: Fix 3c047b1: AIGroup.GetProfitLastYear could get values different than those displayed in gui https://git.io/Jvek6
20:40:39  <frosch123> i don't think you get anywhere if you only address issues once you find them
20:41:40  <peter1138> Revert! :P
20:41:54  <andythenorth> afaik, Wolf01 did the first implementation against https://wiki.openttd.org/Frosch/NotRoadTypes
20:42:12  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #7890: Fix #6452: Reset only editable and visible settings from GUI https://git.io/Jexqi
20:43:41  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #7883: Fix: Ensure a minimum gap of water upon generating terrain with original generator https://git.io/JeNQn
20:44:01  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7991: Fix #7958: Custom catenary missing on road bridges https://git.io/JvcWM
20:44:57  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #7880: Fix: Remove some redundant steps during world generation https://git.io/JeNLr
20:45:04  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh opened issue #7992: Bridges with both road and tram catenary only draw one of them https://git.io/JvcW9
20:46:03  <Wolf01> <nielsm> how messy does it look if both road and tram has catenary? and two different kinds of catenary? <- iirc the tram catenary takes priority
20:46:48  <nielsm> that's exactly what frosch123 said it does not
20:46:53  <nielsm> on ground roads _both_ are drawn
20:47:04  <nielsm> on bridges, only one of them is
20:47:17  <frosch123> the original plan was that road takes precedence
20:47:25  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #7661: Codechange: Rework 'start_date' parameter for AIs as a game setting https://git.io/fjMsZ
20:47:27  <frosch123> then wolf and andy disagreed and changed it without documenting
20:47:40  <frosch123> now both can't remember that they changed it
20:48:27  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #7503: Feature: Add aircraft type dropdown in Autoreplace window https://git.io/fjqQz
20:48:31  <Wolf01> I think we were trying to make it so you can provide a combined catenary with a grf prop
20:48:34  <peter1138> Good blame work. Now just decide what's meant to happen and make it so.
20:48:49  <frosch123> well, i quit :)
20:49:01  <andythenorth> 'Both road and tram may have catenary, but the catenaries exist independent of each other. A tile can show catenary, but still have "electrified road" and "not-electrified tram".'
20:49:09  <andythenorth> "Out of Date This article or section is outdated. Some of its content may no longer be accurate due to changes in the latest release. Please update this article.
20:49:09  <peter1138> frosch123, I mean the channel :p
20:49:09  <andythenorth> This spec is from May 2017. The actual implementation in OpenTTD 1.10 differs to an extent unknown."
20:49:19  <frosch123> i first quit nrt when people kept on breaking things, then i quit ottd when it got merged, despite people stating they did not want to maintain it
20:49:26  <peter1138> I mean, who really gives a shit which takes preference? Just draw something...
20:49:27  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #7486: Fix: AI/GS settings with the flag SCRIPTCONFIG_RANDOM could be altered after loading from a savegame. https://git.io/fjtsp
20:50:40  <LordAro> :(
20:50:49  <andythenorth> it just needs some archeology
20:50:56  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #7376: More than max_no_competitors could be created in network games https://git.io/fjvY8
20:51:00  <nielsm> I'd say draw both and blame the newgrf author if it looks bad
20:51:05  <andythenorth> probably the fault is mine for never finishing the test grf
20:51:10  <frosch123> that's what i tried with the status list in the wiki
20:51:15  <andythenorth> the spec says draw both
20:51:23  <frosch123> but people spoiled the effort
20:51:35  <andythenorth> I could dig up the logs where all chat concludes it's only viable to draw both
20:51:39  <andythenorth> it was debated to death and further :)
20:51:47  <LordAro> blaming is pointless, try to work together to fix it
20:51:52  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #7193: Fix #6468: Load correct version of AI as specified during the time of its save. https://git.io/fhHI1
20:51:59  <LordAro> s/try to//
20:52:36  <andythenorth>  I am supposed to have done this https://github.com/OpenTTD/nml/issues/47
20:52:43  <andythenorth> which would exercise the spec vs. reality
20:52:52  <andythenorth> but I find it much more appealing to draw tiny trains :P
20:53:05  <LordAro> there are plenty of bits of OTTD that are "unmaintained" - YAPF, cargodist + linkgraphs immediately spring to mind
20:53:11  <LordAro> but that doesn't matter
20:53:17  <LordAro> work together to fix problems
20:53:44  <andythenorth> I am quite happy to be blamed, I campaigned for the whole idea relentlessly :)
20:53:48  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #7937: Build on competitor canal https://git.io/JvUIQ
20:54:23  <peter1138> I'm busy enjoying Treadstone...
20:56:43  <andythenorth> just don't ask me to ever write a blog post again, that was insanely painful :P
20:57:12  <peter1138> Oh, it finished with no conclusion. Hmm.
20:57:46  <Eddi|zuHause> i had a huge gridlock in cities skylines out of nowhere... and i changed barely anything, but it cleared up after a while
20:58:26  <glx> roundabouts
20:58:32  <glx> they solve everything :)
20:58:42  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, but no... :p
20:58:55  <Wolf01> NRT was already above my comprehension level when I started it, the only thing I could help with is to debate on it again
20:58:58  <glx> with lane managing
20:59:15  <andythenorth> debate not needed, just accurate docs :)
20:59:28  <andythenorth> then anything that doesn't comply is either insignificant, or just a bug
20:59:39  <Eddi|zuHause> i do lane management, and a few programmed traffic lights
21:00:02  <andythenorth> I will try and work on this this week https://wiki.openttd.org/NewGRF_Specification_Status
21:00:08  <andythenorth> then this https://github.com/OpenTTD/nml/issues/47
21:00:23  <Eddi|zuHause> my traffic is above 70% currently, but it dropped to like 50% in the gridlock
21:00:34  <Eddi|zuHause> with no despawning of vehicles
21:00:38  <andythenorth> this this, except it's mostly done https://github.com/OpenTTD/nml/issues/46
21:01:04  <andythenorth> then maybe we can release nml, which is weirdly nearly-but-not-done https://github.com/OpenTTD/nml/issues/42
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23:06:20  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison opened issue #7993: Wrong format specifiers in kick/ban console command error paths https://git.io/JvcBw
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23:11:48  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro opened pull request #7994: Fix #7993: Compile warning in kick/ban debug messages https://git.io/JvcBD
23:12:14  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #7993: Wrong format specifiers in kick/ban console command error paths https://git.io/JvcBw
23:13:36  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh approved pull request #7994: Fix #7993: Compile warning in kick/ban debug messages https://git.io/JvcBH
23:14:36  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #7991: Fix #7958: Custom catenary missing on road bridges https://git.io/JvcB7
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23:15:25  <LordAro> nielsm: #7990 as well? :>
23:16:59  <nielsm> I'd only approve it on trust that it's correct, shell code tends to make my eyes glaze over
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23:17:53  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh merged pull request #7991: Fix #7958: Custom catenary missing on road bridges https://git.io/JvcCU
23:17:55  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh closed issue #7958: Roadtype catenary not shown over bridges https://git.io/Jvqnp
23:20:03  <Eddi|zuHause> "log 1 "configure: error: it is impossible to compile a dedicated with SDL"; log 1 "configure: error: please deselect one of them and try again"" <-- that sounds weird
23:20:32  <LordAro> that does sound weird
23:21:08  <Eddi|zuHause> probably a copy pasta from ages ago
23:21:29  <LordAro> regardless, if cmake is happening Soonᵀᴹ, i'm not too concerned
23:21:32  <nielsm> does "enable dedicated" on configure really mean "disable all graphics video drivers"?
23:21:35  <Eddi|zuHause> otherwise, i have no clue what's going on there, so i can't tell you anything about correctness
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23:24:18  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't understand cities skylines... i had an international airport for ages, and it's seen like 5 people per week. now i built a normal airport, which is smaller, but it immediately gets 400 passengers
23:25:57  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro merged pull request #7994: Fix #7993: Compile warning in kick/ban debug messages https://git.io/JvcBD
23:25:58  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro closed issue #7993: Wrong format specifiers in kick/ban console command error paths https://git.io/JvcBw
23:26:13  <nielsm> night
23:27:07  <LordAro> gnight
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23:31:50  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] MingweiSamuel commented on issue #7941: train pathfinder acts as if station exits had built-in signals https://git.io/JvU6p
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23:44:45  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] esigra commented on issue #7941: train pathfinder acts as if station exits had built-in signals https://git.io/JvU6p
23:48:30  <TrueBrain> LordAro: I don't have my yubikey with me, but 7990 looks good. I do notice the configure system got a bit abused, but meh. Cmake.

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