Log for #openttd on 18th February 2020:
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00:33:47  <Eddi|zuHause> weird, i could load the cities skylines save yesterday, but that exact same savegame now throws simulation errors on load
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07:21:04  <andythenorth> should I join reddit? :P
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08:15:30  <Eddi|zuHause> 5 years ago? maybe
08:16:21  <andythenorth> currently recommending disabling 90º turns to make pathfinding more reliable
08:16:27  <andythenorth> empirically, the opposite is true
08:16:50  <andythenorth>
08:17:29  <Eddi|zuHause> for ships it should probably be disabled
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08:17:38  <andythenorth> no they get stuck
08:17:42  <andythenorth> unless we fixed that
08:17:45  <andythenorth> maybe we fixed that
08:18:30  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, not awake yet, i meant the opposite
08:19:04  <andythenorth> with 90º disabled, occasionally a lost train will run into a terminus station that is too short for it
08:19:07  <andythenorth> then it can never leave
08:19:22  <andythenorth> with 90º enabled, it will turn on the crossing in front of the station
08:20:41  <Eddi|zuHause> but if 90° is enabled, it might prefer going over that crossing, instead of turning around on the platform
08:20:52  <Eddi|zuHause> which causes unnecessary traffic
08:20:59  <Eddi|zuHause> and potential deadlocks
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08:21:31  <Eddi|zuHause> which is, i believe, what the person meant
08:21:45  <andythenorth> swings, roundabouts
08:22:04  <Eddi|zuHause> roundabouts are terrible
08:22:15  <andythenorth> so are swings
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08:22:37  <Eddi|zuHause> no idea what you mean by that
08:23:22  <andythenorth>
08:23:28  <andythenorth> english colloquialism
08:24:50  <Eddi|zuHause> then i don't agree with you.
08:25:23  <andythenorth> you're favouring 90º disabled?
08:25:31  <Eddi|zuHause> for trains? yes
08:25:52  <Eddi|zuHause> typically, the game behaves better when there's less options
08:26:44  <andythenorth> so the conclusion is, I shouldn't join reddit
08:28:29  <Eddi|zuHause> the more options a train has to choose, the more likely it'll pick a disruptive choice, because something wasn't properly modeled as a pathfinder penalty
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08:29:22  <Eddi|zuHause> like, if you have parallel tracks, don't put in X-crossings so "trains can bypass breakdowns"
08:30:28  <Eddi|zuHause> because a) the pathfinder cannot distinguish normal trains from broken down trains, and b) the pathfinder has no concept of blocking other incoming trains
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08:51:20  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] nielsmh commented on issue #80: openttd_version: OpenTTD var 21/1A result has changed since OpenTTD moved to git
08:56:41  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] andythenorth commented on issue #80: openttd_version: OpenTTD var 21/1A result has changed since OpenTTD moved to git
09:00:02  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] andythenorth commented on issue #80: openttd_version: OpenTTD var 21/1A result has changed since OpenTTD moved to git
09:00:03  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] andythenorth closed issue #80: openttd_version: OpenTTD var 21/1A result has changed since OpenTTD moved to git
09:00:54  <andythenorth> newgrf for 1.9.0 almost complete :D
09:15:00  <andythenorth> hmm
09:15:16  <andythenorth> a [n% full load] order would ease ship design :P
09:15:42  <andythenorth> trying to provide a range of ideal capacities from 40t to 800t is an arse
09:15:52  <andythenorth> but % load has been rejected multiple times
09:16:05  <andythenorth> oof
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09:50:06  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think %-load has been rejected per se, it's just embedded into the whole "order UI is horribly overloaded already" problem
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11:00:35  <mczapkie> Hello, I would like to notify, that doesn't respond...
11:00:58  <mczapkie> TWIC
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11:03:15  <LordAro> planetmaker: ^
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13:55:36  <Samu> i found some issue
13:55:59  <Samu> it adds a penalty when a ship is in the docking tile
13:56:55  <Samu> means that it's going to increase the number of node searchs needlessly
13:58:35  <Samu> the ship isn't even close to the destination when the pathfinder makes the search
13:59:07  <Samu> the penalty could be obsolete when the ship arrives closer
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14:00:35  <LordAro> Samu: i noticed that too - it definitely seemed to be doing the pathfinding more often than necessary
14:01:52  <Samu> i think the 90 degrees as penalties are also affecting it
14:01:57  <Samu> let me tests
14:03:30  <spnda> So uh, what is a spritelayout from NML in NFO? I can't find much if any reference to it... Also I saw that  Airports use tilelayout. Do Objects, Industries, Houses or anything else  use that?
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14:13:04  <Samu> 10222 (14119 with curve penalties) rounds from A to B, 14479 (22078 with curve penalties) rounds from B to A
14:13:14  <Samu> regardless, this ship would be lost
14:13:19  <Samu> with a limit of 10000 rounds
14:13:28  <Samu> on that savegame
14:14:25  <spnda> andythenorth: yesterday you said "needs to follow industries and objects imho". Could you share a example of a multi tile/single tile object/industry in NML? I just want to look at something to get some ideas.
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14:19:35  <Samu> it's funny
14:19:57  <Samu> when the ship pathfinds from B to the ship depot, it only needs 7856 rounds
14:20:37  <Samu> but when it pathfinds from B to A, skipping the ship depot, it needs more than 10000
14:21:32  <Samu> 22075
14:22:56  <Samu> distance from depot to A is mere 5 tiles
14:23:22  <Samu> but the number of rounds searches goes up from 7856 to 22075, that's weird
14:24:28  <andythenorth> spnda: full FIRS?
14:24:46  <andythenorth> for single tile, general store, hardware store
14:24:57  <andythenorth> multi-tile: builders yard, recycling yard
14:24:59  <spnda> Oh I had no idea you were on github now
14:25:05  <andythenorth> yes
14:25:11  <andythenorth>
14:25:23  <andythenorth> you might just want the generated nml though
14:26:06  <andythenorth> the bigger FIRS industries sometimes have horrible complexity in the spritelayouts
14:26:20  <andythenorth> you might want to ignore those, lots of ternary checks for snow, land slope etc
14:26:28  <andythenorth> forest is a prime example of madness :P
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14:27:42  <planetmaker> ty @ LordAro
14:27:49  <spnda> You've got the generated NML anywhere?
14:28:02  <spnda> Oh I am blind. Found it
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14:36:03  <Samu> there is a bug somewhere related to docking tiles
14:36:14  <Samu> the penalties are weird
14:36:40  <Samu> if it is a dock it needs 22075 search nodes
14:36:57  <Samu> but if in place of a dock it is a ship depot, it only needs 8230 rounds
14:37:04  <Samu> same tile
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14:39:00  <Samu> gonna try with a buy instead of ship depot
14:39:03  <Samu> buoy
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14:39:56  <Samu> 8231 with buoy
14:41:41  <Samu> i place a dock in front of the buoy and bam... now it requires 22075 nodes
14:41:48  <Samu> rounds*
14:42:08  <Samu> and the ship is still going to the buoy
14:42:16  <Samu> must check code brb
14:42:38  <FLHerne> Samu: Are you putting the dock and buoy so they have exactly the same destination tile?
14:42:45  <Samu> yes
14:42:49  <spnda> andythenorth: Hmm, industries use industry tiles, objects don't... I kinda want to go the way objects are done, though. How do objects do it?
14:42:53  <FLHerne> (bearing in mind that docks now have more than one possibly)
14:44:09  <FLHerne> spnda: ?
14:44:13  <Samu> i know but, going from 8230 rounds to 22075 is a huge difference imo
14:44:26  <Samu> considering it's exactly the same destination
14:44:50  <spnda> FLHerne: Oh that looks quite helpful.
14:45:01  <spnda> Didn't know objects do it with a switch... interesting
14:45:36  <spnda> Oh not a switch...
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14:45:46  <FLHerne> spnda: The switch is for the different orientations
14:45:53  <spnda> Yeah just noticed that
14:46:44  <FLHerne> I don't know how you've implemented it with roadstops
14:47:17  <spnda> I haven't, that's the thing
14:47:35  <spnda> And I've only ever made trains and roadvehicles with NML, so I have no idea how others work
14:49:19  <FLHerne> I guess you want similar behaviour to rail stations, which don't actually exist in NML yet :/
14:49:27  <FLHerne> There's a draft spec
14:51:25  <FLHerne> Hm, looks like that uses tilelayouts, which seems a bit pointless for road stops
14:51:42  <spnda> why though?
14:51:46  <spnda> I thought of tilelayouts too
14:52:39  <FLHerne> They've only ever got one tile, unless you plan to change that?
14:53:03  <spnda> Well, it'd be an idea to maybe make multi tile stops
14:56:11  <spnda> But I am still not sure if that's actually a good idea or if it's necessary-
14:58:54  <planetmaker> right, ssh access to repos should work again
15:01:43  <FLHerne> spnda: I'm not convinced they're worth having, but could be wrong
15:02:06  <spnda> Not really, but it's been an idea that came up
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15:14:38  <Eddi|zuHause> so i spend half an hour fiddling with CSUR, and immediately get to the limitations of it... i don't think this is the right thing for me...
15:19:08  <spnda> Actually, I think I'll just make this single tile, eventhough I am sure there'll be some developers who would make awesome multi tile stations.
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15:29:04  <Samu> 8235 with a count of 0
15:31:04  <Samu>
15:31:49  <Samu> just being a docking tile it adds a 300 cost to the path
15:32:10  <Samu> enough to increase 8235 to 22075
15:32:13  <Samu> rounds
15:32:50  <Samu> what to do?
15:32:57  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm definitely of the opinion that there should be multi-tile road stations, but they only make sense if there are also ... *cough* ... state machines
15:35:28  <spnda> Eddi|zuHause: what do you really mean with that?
15:36:23  <Eddi|zuHause> state machines are what guides airplanes on the airport (where can you land, where are the loading spots, how can you taxi, is the taxiway empty)
15:36:39  <spnda> so... waypoints
15:36:40  <Eddi|zuHause> they could also be used to guide road vehicles on the road stop
15:36:43  <Eddi|zuHause> no
15:36:52  <spnda> oh like entry paths
15:36:55  <spnda> "special roads"
15:37:02  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
15:39:10  <planetmaker> is that really needed or can it not simply be like "this tile allows unloading in this direction and entry from that"
15:39:47  <planetmaker> which basically current ones do by orientation
15:40:07  <planetmaker> couldn't they be just strung together to bigger ones?
15:40:15  <spnda> Which was basically my idea. Leave their functionality as is, and just have custom sprites/sprite layouts/animations etc.
15:40:19  <spnda> Exactly what I thought
15:40:25  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i can't see that being useful for anything
15:40:45  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: then you can just make individual tiles that you can place next to each other
15:40:48  <planetmaker> eh, not? Works also for stations
15:41:10  <planetmaker> you need no state machines and create nice multi-tile stuff
15:41:26  <planetmaker> special movement is not a requirement for that
15:42:01  <spnda> well, stations use waypoints
15:42:10  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i'm thinking about drive-through stations with two or more parallel loading stops (instead of two in opposite direction)
15:42:21  <spnda> that would be good, yeah
15:42:22  <planetmaker> there are waypoints, but rail stations are not rail waypoints
15:42:26  <Eddi|zuHause> and more sensible tram turning loops
15:42:45  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not talking about waypoints at all.
15:42:47  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, yes, I see and know what you mean. That definitely would open new possibilities (and requires state machines).
15:43:07  <planetmaker> But I see that as no way a requirement for multi-tile road stations. They simply could function like multi-tile train stations
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15:44:15  <spnda> Put two next to each other and the dev would need to check if there's neighbours and adapt.
15:44:42  <planetmaker> (and I do believe both approaches can co-exist)
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15:56:49  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i didn't say it's a requirement. just a very strong "would be nice to have"
16:18:31  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] kiwitreekor opened pull request #8008: Feature: Double-click to rename vehicle
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16:26:26  <Samu> I have an idea to improve 8001
16:27:38  <spnda> So for single tile stop, should I just do "default: set_rs_default;" and do "spriteset (set_rs_default, "img.png") { 16_view_template(0, 0) }"?
16:27:44  <spnda> Or should I have some layouts or something
16:28:06  <Samu> seems to need the same treatment as road vehicles approaching their destination
16:28:17  <Samu> not sure how that one was exactly solved, but...
16:28:42  <Samu> it's kind of related
16:30:55  <Samu> testing this atm
16:31:06  <Samu> replacing this
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16:32:04  <Samu> i used a distance of less than 8 when ships are approaching
16:32:08  <Samu> docks
16:32:23  <Samu> to start counting the penalties
16:33:07  <Samu> now i'm getting 8300 rounds instead of 22000...
16:33:12  <Samu> whereabouts
16:36:56  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl commented on pull request #8008: Feature: Double-click to rename vehicle
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16:53:42  <Samu> unsure of my approach, to be honest
17:06:22  <Samu> what's the command to force push?
17:06:32  <Samu> system forgot it post format
17:06:39  <Samu> git push --force ?
17:07:03  <Eddi|zuHause> spnda: you should still have spritelayouts, so you can compose graphics from multiple sprites (stop sign, shed, whatever)
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17:11:53  <nielsm> instead of state machines for custom road stops, how about lane layouts, I think you can describe that with 8 bits for a tile
17:13:39  <nielsm> 2 bit for direction the lanes go in (N-S, E-W, NE-SW, NW-SE), 1 bit for each lane which direction it has, and 2 bits for each lane to decide whether it accepts cars, trams, both, or none
17:13:50  <nielsm> and then you can invoke pathfinding on that
17:14:08  <nielsm> actually maybe that's not the right thing to do now I think about it
17:14:11  <nielsm> scrap that!
17:15:03  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick opened pull request #8009: Change #8001: Don't add docking tile cost when ships are still too far from their destination
17:15:42  <nielsm> (it doesn't allow for internal junctions)
17:16:30  <planetmaker> Road stops are somewhat more complicated than train stations:
17:16:52  <planetmaker> * drive-through (which has 2 lanes with common orientation).
17:17:12  <planetmaker> * terminal which has an entry and place(s) where to stop with an orientation
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17:18:27  <nielsm> yeah I suppose someone would want to make freight terminals where trucks back into an unloading bay
17:18:47  <Samu> who's gonna test 8009 LordAro ?
17:19:01  <Samu> FLHerne,
17:19:24  <Samu> im worried about one thing, about deadlock ships
17:19:36  <Samu> station spreaded docks
17:19:49  <Samu> and that penalty making the ship turn around
17:20:09  <Samu> back and forth, but im unsure if that's going to happen, but it's what's worrying me
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17:32:57  <spnda> Eddi|zuHause: Though I still haven't really understood how spritelayouts are handled by the game (or loaded). Any references?
17:33:14  <Eddi|zuHause> spnda: sorry, not the right person to ask that
17:33:29  <spnda> ok,  I'll search further
17:34:44  <Eddi|zuHause> nielsm: yeah, proper backing up instead of this weird spinny thing
17:34:55  <peter1138> Industry Tiles or House Tiles...
17:38:13  <FLHerne> spnda: I think spritelayouts correspond fairly directly to a varaction2
17:38:27  <FLHerne> and
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17:42:21  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] kiwitreekor commented on pull request #8008: Feature: Double-click to rename vehicle
17:48:22  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] andythenorth commented on pull request #85: Change: industry tiles and houses now support 16 accepted cargos
17:48:31  <andythenorth> not a review :P
17:48:39  <andythenorth> that needs a review though :)
17:48:42  <andythenorth> BIAB
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17:49:44  <peter1138> FLHerne, yeah. But the good thing is all the "hard work" there is already done.
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18:23:57  <glx> #7998 is weird, I fail to see how it's possible
18:27:57  <LordAro> getting companyhq of nonexistent company?
18:28:36  <_dp_> but it checks for invalid id first
18:28:38  <glx> maybe, but ResolveCompanyID() should take care of that
18:28:43  <LordAro> yeah..
18:28:53  <frosch123> i think the problem is the CompanyID enum
18:28:55  <glx> and it does the exact same test as the assert
18:28:56  <frosch123> it is defined twice
18:29:03  <frosch123> probably one is signed, the other unsigned
18:29:08  <frosch123> so the -1 is broken inbetween
18:29:32  <LordAro> frosch123: that is the case for all the script stuff :p
18:29:41  <LordAro> wish there was a better way than redefining everything..
18:29:46  <_dp_> also can fail if _current_company somehow got corrupted
18:30:09  <frosch123> TileIndex loc = ::Company::Get((CompanyID)company)->location_of_HQ; <- that line is nonsense
18:30:19  <frosch123> "company" is already a CompanyId, just in a different namespace
18:30:36  <frosch123> and ::CompanyId is defined as byte (probably new since 1.10)
18:30:45  <glx> yeah in this file sometimes it's ::CompanyID, sometimes CompanyID
18:31:11  <LordAro> yeah, that seems like a good bet to me
18:31:17  <frosch123> glx: can you check the disassembly in msvc?
18:31:24  <frosch123> whether there is a byte cast
18:31:40  <glx> I can try
18:32:15  <frosch123> also ScriptCompany::ResolveCompanyID does two different casts
18:32:16  <glx> anyway there are really some inconsistencies in casts in this file
18:32:25  <frosch123> the one to IsValidID is different to the one in return
18:32:39  <LordAro> sounds like a bit of a mess
18:33:50  <frosch123> most casts cast to ::Company, only the cast in GetCompanyHQ lacks the ::
18:34:35  <frosch123> GetPresidentGender as well
18:34:48  <glx> CompanyID is ScriptCompany::CompanyID for intellisense
18:35:51  <frosch123> well, half of the calls to ::Company::Get cast to ::CompanyID, the other half to CompanyID
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18:36:49  <frosch123> it is also full with casts to the same type :p
18:38:04  <glx> <-- should be ScriptCompany::CompanyID in the signature
18:38:23  <frosch123> glx: LordAro: I am pretty sure you can reproduce it with AICompany::GetCompanyHQ(256)
18:38:48  <glx> that's easy to test indeed
18:38:54  <frosch123> ResolveCompanyID will cast the 256 to 0, think it is a valid company, and still return 256
18:39:35  <LordAro> now i'm looking at the squirrel generation
18:39:43  <LordAro> 500 line awk script is horrifying
18:39:56  <frosch123> just look at ResolveCompanyID, it's easy
18:40:03  <frosch123> it fails for 256
18:40:09  <LordAro> that said, the fact that someone translated it to vbs is worse
18:40:09  <_dp_> ResolveCompanyID should probably return ::CompanyID
18:40:20  <_dp_> also -1 in enums doesn't seem to be a good idea :p
18:40:25  <frosch123> yes, and it should reject 256
18:40:33  <glx> LordAro: API generation ?
18:40:34  <LordAro> _dp_: definitely not ones defined to be bytes :p
18:40:36  <LordAro> glx: yeah
18:40:42  <glx> I redone it for cmake
18:41:10  <LordAro> i was wondering if some doc comments (or similar) could be used instead of just redefining all the functions and types
18:41:20  <_dp_> LordAro, well, technically here it's 0xFF in the one that defined as byte...
18:41:27  <glx> and in cmake I made it happen on build
18:41:32  <LordAro> _dp_: well indeed
18:41:37  <_dp_> LordAro, and that's exactly the problem xD
18:44:24  <frosch123> i am preparing a pr
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18:49:52  <andythenorth> what's this Github inbox thing?
18:50:02  * andythenorth standard reaction to anything new: what's this crap? :P
18:50:10  <glx> replacement of notifications
18:50:24  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm starting to get the hang of this CSUR thing, but there still are some problematic limitations/glitches
18:50:24  <glx> requires more micromanagement
18:50:46  <andythenorth> oof fake email crap
18:50:48  <andythenorth> I hate that
18:51:02  * andythenorth opts out of the beta
18:52:27  <andythenorth> double-click rename eh?
18:52:29  <glx> of course I'm testing in 1.10 with a test AI expecting 1.11
18:52:34  * andythenorth increases the number of things to not give a fuck about :P
18:53:18  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 opened pull request #8010: Fix #7998: Crash when scripts tried to access companies with invalid IDs.
18:53:26  <glx> let's restart openttd after modifying the AI
18:56:47  <glx> frosch123: indeed AICompany.GetCompanyHQ(256); crashes
18:57:16  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #8010: Fix #7998: Crash when scripts tried to access companies with invalid IDs.
18:57:25  <glx> I'll test your PR after dinner
18:58:15  <andythenorth> frosch123: I may be imagining, did you have an idea for improving whitespace for ships?
18:58:20  * andythenorth hasn't checked logs
18:58:32  <andythenorth> someone talked about it last year
18:58:55  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 commented on pull request #8010: Fix #7998: Crash when scripts tried to access companies with invalid IDs.
18:59:50  <frosch123> edited comment with some addition, if you already read it
19:03:01  * andythenorth wonders about half-size ships in buy menu
19:03:23  <frosch123> i thought you already did that
19:03:27  <andythenorth>
19:03:29  <frosch123> or was it pikka with planes?
19:03:35  <andythenorth> I think pikka has done it somewhere
19:03:46  <andythenorth> we do it with some airports also
19:04:04  <frosch123> well, with your gui zoom they are normal size now :p
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19:04:25  <frosch123> you should consider adding the original sprites as 2x zoom sprites
19:04:33  <andythenorth> hmm, I could literally make half-size a parameter option :P
19:04:44  <frosch123> double the sprites
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19:04:56  <andythenorth> oof
19:05:21  <andythenorth> this is just procrastination from
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19:05:32  <andythenorth> "Action 7/9 condition 0F..12" what even means? :)
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19:08:37  <andythenorth> checks for labels defined?
19:09:33  <frosch123> glx: btw. it also crashes/not crashes as expected before/after fix on linux
19:09:49  <frosch123> andythenorth: the intention is probably the same as for railtypes
19:10:29  <frosch123> vehicle grf checks whether a road/tramtype is defined, to pick which type to assign to its vehicles
19:10:51  <frosch123> though it's probably redundant by now, there are so many compatible/equivalent propertiers, that noone has to check single labels
19:11:25  <andythenorth> but we need it for consistency?
19:12:07  <frosch123> railtype authors are weirdos, if you need different tracks for 25/50/75 kmh, you also need that test probably :p
19:12:19  * andythenorth trying to find how nml does it for railtypes
19:13:09  <frosch123> <- railtype_available, cargotype_available
19:13:16  <andythenorth> railtype_available
19:13:20  <andythenorth> oh ok yes
19:13:41  <andythenorth> builtin_roadtype_available seems to be there
19:13:59  <andythenorth> checks 0x0fF
19:14:01  <andythenorth> 0x0F
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19:14:11  <andythenorth> builtin_tramtype_available checks 0x11
19:14:39  <frosch123> it only needs one of the pairs, the other one is the inverse, which nml can do itself
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19:15:40  * andythenorth looking for the openttd implementation 
19:15:44  <andythenorth> I have NFI how this stuff works :)
19:16:20  <andythenorth> ok they come in pairs I see
19:16:21  <andythenorth> ish
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19:16:33  <frosch123> i fixed them last month or so, they were broken in ottd :)
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19:20:12  * andythenorth looks for them
19:20:24  <andythenorth> oops, JGR isn't the correct place to look
19:20:34  * andythenorth too many openttd checkouts
19:22:26  <andythenorth> ok found them
19:24:03  * andythenorth wonders whether they are railtypes, rail types, or rail_types or track_types
19:24:11  <andythenorth> probably consistency doesn't matter much
19:24:17  <andythenorth> just confusing having to pick one every time :P
19:25:21  <frosch123> i stated using "track type" when referring to all three rail/road/track types
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19:25:42  <frosch123> i am probably not consistent with space/underscore/nospace
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19:26:27  <frosch123> i see why it's named "synthon", not "synchron"
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19:28:19  <andythenorth> I wonder about refactoring nml to track_type in more places
19:28:44  <andythenorth> I hate that there are two symbols resolving to 0x4A
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