Log for #openttd on 25th February 2020:
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00:10:42  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #8021: Fix #8020: Add missing docking tiles around industry neutral stations
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00:35:59  <skrzyp> Anyone wants to look into that?
00:36:36  <skrzyp> I know the build system is going to be rewritten, but that comment still doesn't clearly answer these issues I've posted there :)
00:37:58  <skrzyp> I've posted workarounds for this particular case which had been proven woring in our network games already, but I'm not sure if it should be like that in release builds if the solution is even getting accepted
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00:46:17  <glx> we probably won't write it ourself, but a PR is welcome
00:51:11  <glx> and at some point will be merged
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02:40:13  <skrzyp> so I must wait for this PR first, as basing on the feature branch wouldn't give anything good
02:40:43  <skrzyp> but I'm also interested in WildMIDI as a MIDI player backend which doesn't require runtime dependencies too
02:41:08  <skrzyp> so it might make such AppImage (or even just a zip bundle) runnable like on Windows
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07:43:30  <andythenorth> yo
07:47:31  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenGFX] andythenorth updated pull request #34: Change: add missing nrt gui sprites
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10:34:26  <Samu> hi
10:35:10  <Samu> I got fixes to do :)
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10:40:54  <debdog> shipfix!
10:49:31  <milek7> skrzyp: there is also libtimidity music backend rotting somewhere on my branch
10:52:10  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #8021: Fix #8020: Add missing docking tiles around industry neutral stations
10:52:20  <Samu> no more savegame bump
10:54:38  <milek7> but personally i think AppImage is a fail
10:54:39  <Samu> oops, small typo
10:54:41  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #8021: Fix #8020: Add missing docking tiles around industry neutral stations
10:56:41  <milek7> it's basically unsolvable problem, either you include too much (and it ties to specific system config and daemons)
10:57:06  <milek7> or too little (and you're back to square one in having to install various dependecies)
10:58:01  <milek7> and appimages weight a ton..
10:59:16  <milek7> if you want libtimidity commits from f4c1f to a2f23
11:02:37  <Samu> i made a bad revert yesterday lol
11:04:46  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #8009: Change #8001: Don't add docking tile cost when ships are still too far from their destination
11:06:16  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #8009: Change #8001: Don't add docking tile cost when ships are still too far from their destination
11:06:57  <Samu> fixed
11:16:49  <peter1138> I don't think pathfinder costs should be variable like that.
11:17:04  <peter1138> Tweak the cost (or remove it) by all means.
11:24:29  <Samu> a full remove is going to look bad
11:24:39  <Samu> ships won't spread
11:25:00  <Samu> they would just head to the closest dock and ignore the multidock
11:25:13  <peter1138> What's the issue, are ships going back & forth instead of docking?
11:25:46  <peter1138> Hmm, path is lost. Why would a docking penalty cause that?
11:26:21  <peter1138> Ah, max distance. Hmm.
11:26:37  <peter1138> What's the normal tile cost, then...
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12:22:04  <Samu> 0
12:22:16  <Samu> or 100
12:23:19  <Samu> th issue is about the number of search nodes required
12:25:12  <Samu> i posted some tests results
12:25:57  <Samu> docking tile alone, for savegame 1 was requiring  24938 rounds, but without it it was only 3483
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12:28:54  <dwfreed> So I'm obviously not familiar with how the pathfinder works, but it sounds like the docks don't actually care how many ships are at them for functional purposes, it's just a cosmetic thing?
12:34:13  <dwfreed> if it is cosmetic only, then simply increase a particular dock's cost to some fixed integer multiple of a normal tile's cost multiplied by the number of ships currently docked (the fixed integer should be slightly more than the reasonable distance between the farthest docks in a single "port")
12:35:59  <dwfreed> and if it is a functional thing, you take the same approach, you just have to count the ship docked and the ships waiting to dock
12:36:07  <FLHerne> peter1138: "I don't think pathfinder costs should be variable like that."
12:36:27  <FLHerne> The cost is already variable depending on whether the other ship is docked?
12:37:22  <dwfreed> I think peter might be referring to a tile's cost varying based on how far a ship is from it, based on the title of the PR
12:37:33  <dwfreed> that's not a sane variation
12:38:48  <FLHerne> It doesn't make much sense to count docked ships as an obstruction when they're so far away that they'll most likely have left
12:39:01  <FLHerne> by the time the pathfinding ship actually gets there
12:39:15  <FLHerne> I don't see what makes it a less-sane variation, really
12:40:14  <FLHerne> The cost already changes as ships move about
12:41:17  <dwfreed> sure, but the path is the same cost whether the ship is 1000 tiles away or 5 tiles away (minus the tiles covered, of course)
12:41:24  <FLHerne> So why is the cost changing when the pathfinding ship moves "not sane" compared to when another ship does?
12:41:41  <dwfreed> because the latter is an actual change in the path cost
12:42:09  <dwfreed> not just "we're ignoring that tile because its cost might change by the time we get there"
12:42:15  <FLHerne> But the "ship in the way" component of the path cost is essentially a heuristic
12:42:37  <FLHerne> You're assuming sme probability of it still being there when it's reached
12:42:42  <dwfreed> so you periodically repath
12:42:50  <FLHerne> And it makes sense for that probability to decrease the further away it is
12:43:33  <FLHerne> (maybe it would be nicer to have a smooth factor instead of a binary cutoff, but that might be unnecessary)
12:51:13  <FLHerne> i.e. the ship-avoidance cost per tile in the PF, ideally, should be <cost of colliding with a ship> * <probability of the tile being occupied when reached>
12:52:53  <FLHerne> Trying to predict paths for other ships would be silly, but assuming they're all fixed in place is far from an ideal heuristic
12:54:51  <dwfreed> and yet factorio does it for trains
12:57:00  * FLHerne has been avoiding Factorio, not needing any more addictions :P
13:04:47  <Eddi|zuHause> it makes some  sense for trains, because thy might be waiting at a signal, but ships tend to be at max speed
13:05:20  <dwfreed> Eddi|zuHause: until you're waiting for a dock (station)
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13:13:34  <Samu> dwfreed, they don't wait for a dock, they can still go on top of each other on the same dock
13:13:46  <Samu> the penalty is being used to avoid that, but it won't forbid it
13:30:27  <Samu> savegame 1, docking tile was an extra 600 because of it being a docking tile and a ship being there, 300+300
13:31:17  <Samu> typically, 600 cost is 6 times 100, the normal cost of walking a tile
13:32:20  <Samu> multiply that by the number of possible tracks that still cost less than that added 600, and you get the "exponential" increase in the number of search nodes
13:32:37  <Samu> considering it's the ocean, it's a whole lot of tiles
13:33:48  <Samu> before it "accepts the tile that costs 600", it will prefer to look for the other tiles costing less
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14:07:13  <TrueBrain> where is andy if you need him
14:11:20  <LordAro> TrueBrain: have you tried the summoning ritual?
14:11:37  <TrueBrain> I am walking around in my room naked, but nothing
14:12:27  * LordAro gets bleach to wash out his eyes
14:12:46  <Samu> is #8021 fine now?
14:12:49  <LordAro> let me try:
14:13:14  <LordAro> I think FIRS needs more industries
14:13:36  <TrueBrain> see ... it is broken
14:13:40  <TrueBrain> sadddd
14:13:43  <LordAro> hmm
14:18:45  <TrueBrain> I forgot that we use a pretty complex way to get the md5 of packages ... it is not as straight forward as I would like :)
14:19:21  <TrueBrain> I wonder if I should keep that, or if I should just do an md5 over the whole file ..
14:19:45  <TrueBrain> (the reason it isn't done, is because that would include the date stored in the tar-files .. so reproducing the same md5 is very difficult)
14:20:08  <FLHerne> `tar` has a don't-store-the-date flag now?
14:20:16  <FLHerne> Distros use it for reproducible builds
14:22:19  <FLHerne> Edit: it can set a fixed date for all files (`tar --mtime='2000-01-01 00:00Z' ...`)
14:23:45  <TrueBrain> I guess that would work too; not sure if there are other reasons why this is done this complicated tbh
14:24:06  <TrueBrain> I know for NewGRFs not everything is in the md5 too
14:24:09  <FLHerne> Apparently you need  --sort=name also (otherwise the files might be stored in a different order)
14:24:12  <TrueBrain> some parts are skipped .. can't remember which
14:24:50  <TrueBrain> I believe it had something to do with 8bpp and 32bpp
14:24:59  <TrueBrain> somehow I zoned out if people told me an md5 is not really an digest :P
14:26:39  <TrueBrain> pretty sure there was a good reason to do it like that, I just can't remember :(
14:29:24  <TrueBrain> "Reduce the length to contain only the data, but not the sprites."
14:29:26  <TrueBrain> well, that is not helpful
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14:29:52  <milek7> is it even possible to change that without breaking old savegames?
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15:20:37  <Eddi|zuHause> for NewGRFs it was the idea that you can provide "low-res" and "hi-res" versions of the same file, and they would be multiplayer compatible
15:20:57  <Eddi|zuHause> but afair BaNaNaS was never updated to support that, and i don't think anyone does it
15:21:48  <LordAro> that was a 32bpp-extrazoom thing
15:21:52  <LordAro> iirc
15:22:02  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
15:22:17  <LordAro> for some reason it ended up being supported by OTTD, but only in the tar files and nowhere else
15:26:10  <TrueBrain> lol
15:26:16  <TrueBrain> there was an attempt, concept :D
15:29:51  <Eddi|zuHause> well, to my knowledge it works fully in OTTD, but there is no infrastructure to make it useful for the average user (the 1% that use NewGRFs, anyway)
15:30:36  <TrueBrain> I guess for this BaNaNaS 1.5 there also won't be support for it :P
15:30:40  <TrueBrain> tmetlb
15:32:35  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] glx22 updated pull request #91: Fix #90, e9429c89: Procedure calls checks were too strict
15:35:34  <Samu> I just triggered an old bug by accident
15:36:27  <Samu> I'm not sure it's worth reporting, I had already fixed it
15:36:34  <Samu> but it was rejected
15:38:52  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] LordAro commented on pull request #91: Fix #90, e9429c89: Generated procedure calls where not properly marked
15:39:08  <Samu> ships want to go service at a depot, but the path to it increases the manhattan distance required to trigger the servicing, and thus it cancels. Ship returns to its normal path, getting closer again and then re-triggers the servicing
15:39:12  <Samu> becomes stuck in a loop
15:40:00  <Samu> my poor english
15:46:50  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick opened issue #8022: Ship automatic service causes them to be stuck in a loop
15:49:31  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] glx22 commented on pull request #91: Fix #90, e9429c89: Generated procedure calls where not properly marked
15:52:09  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on issue #8022: Ship automatic service causes them to be stuck in a loop
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16:13:47  <Samu> closed by andythenorth :(
16:14:07  <Samu> opf was still a thing back then
16:14:28  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] glx22 updated pull request #91: Fix #90, e9429c89: Generated procedure calls where not properly marked
16:15:28  <peter1138> FLHerne, "12:36 < FLHerne> The cost is already variable depending on whether the other ship is docked?
16:15:39  <peter1138> FLHerne, that is not variable within one pathfinder run.
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16:20:23  <FLHerne> peter1138: Is it here? Not very familiar with the pf code, but it looks like it's comparing to the pathfinding ship's position
16:21:33  <FLHerne> Which should surely not change while the pathfinder is running
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16:36:43  <peter1138> FLHerne, mmm, gets awkward with caches and the like. Maybe it's finee.
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17:41:52  <Etua> from is dead. Should I find a replacement URL or is the project dead?
17:47:53  <Eddi|zuHause> never heard of that thing, but my default assumption would be that it's dead
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17:57:36  <FLHerne> Etua: It still exists at
17:57:46  <FLHerne> (but it's also pretty thoroughly dead)
17:58:04  <FLHerne> Last commit 'over 9 years ago'
17:58:08  <TrueBrain> "Tested with OpenTTD 1.0.4' :D
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18:19:13  <Etua> Does it make any sense to link it back?
18:19:56  <Samu> i wonder how the docking tiles work for firs industries
18:20:01  <Samu> gonna check
18:22:52  <Samu> nice, it works pretty well :)
18:28:37  <Samu> the splitting is not too perfect, perhaps the cost of occupancy should be higher
18:29:11  <Samu> hmm
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18:30:45  <Samu> let's try it 1500
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18:33:23  <Eddi|zuHause> well, you could certainly change the wiki
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18:35:42  <Samu> with a cost of 1500 ->, 12 docking tiles, 12 ships went to their respective tile
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18:42:50  <Samu> with the default cost of 300 ->, 12 docking tiles, 12 ships, they occupied only 6 of 12
18:43:12  <Samu> looks like 300 is too little!
18:43:25  <Samu> but it's also too much at the same time!
18:43:43  <Samu> due to the increase number of search nodes :p
18:48:39  <Samu> testing 800, only 9 of 12
18:49:55  <Samu> 1000, also 9 of 12
18:50:00  <Samu> afk dinner
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18:55:48  <Beerbelott> Hello
18:55:48  <Beerbelott> I'm looking for planetmaker. Is he 'round?
18:56:12  <LordAro> timed out about 3 minutes ago
18:56:21  <LordAro> bet that's related :p
18:59:09  <Eddi|zuHause> he was here a few days ago
18:59:09  <Beerbelott> OK thx
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19:15:37  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: I made your pressence obsolete :P Sorry :)
19:15:50  <TrueBrain> I am going to abuse your Iron Horse 2, I am sure you don't mind :P
19:16:00  <andythenorth> probs fine right?
19:16:02  <TrueBrain> (I was looking for a GRF to test new BaNaNaS with :D)
19:16:07  <andythenorth> be time for version 3 soon anyway :P
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19:20:46  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: do you mind if older MD5s of your GRF are easily accessable? Are you one of those people? :P
19:24:44  <andythenorth> I don't give any...what's the word?
19:24:48  <andythenorth> a rude word
19:25:01  <TrueBrain> good, tnx :)
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19:50:58  <Samu> from 17
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20:05:48  <Samu> this could be exploited
20:06:09  <Samu> if there are 1000 ships in a single docking tile, the cost would be 1000 * 300
20:07:00  <Samu> 300000, i wonder what would the pf do with such ridiculous cost
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20:12:44  <Samu> interesting, it reports the ship is lost, but it still heads to the dock
20:15:53  <Samu> the pathfinder already had a path, why report it lost?
20:16:04  <Samu> now I'm confused
20:28:15  <Samu> 1 + true = 2
20:34:59  <Etua> I installed openttd in my LXC container, forwarded the appropriate port but it still is unreachable. When I tried to enable advertising the server it told me that the master server cannot connect to it as well. nmap both from my PC and from the Debian that hosts the containers show that this port is open. How else can I debug where the hiccup is?
20:35:31  <TrueBrain> portforwarding from your router?
20:45:27  <glx> external IP not accessible from internal ?
20:46:03  <glx> hmm but master server means missing forwarding
20:46:17  <glx> UDP for advertise
20:46:27  <glx> @ports
20:46:27  <DorpsGek> glx: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
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21:01:17  <Etua> DorpsGek: Oh, I did not open 3978. I'll try to do it.
21:02:18  <Etua> TrueBrain: I'll check once again, but the port is open from outside so if it wasn't opened on the router I suppose it wouldn't be visible as open from outside.
21:02:32  <TrueBrain> remember both TCP and UDP
21:02:52  <Etua> I set both but only for 3979
21:07:26  <glx> theorically 3978 is enough, as openttd doesn't listen on 3979
21:08:02  <TrueBrain> glx: are you sure about that? Doesn't the game use 3979 to connect clients and servers?
21:08:02  <glx> well the other way :)
21:08:16  <TrueBrain> and is listens on 3978 too .. UDP, for game info :)
21:10:22  <glx> I never redirected 3978
21:10:32  <TrueBrain> so you never advertised? :D
21:10:41  <TrueBrain> and if a client adds your server, it wont show the basic information
21:10:47  <TrueBrain> but you can connect, that is true
21:10:56  <TrueBrain> but "doesn't listen" is false information ;) :D
21:11:12  <frosch123> i also thought it was like glx said
21:11:22  <frosch123> only master server is listening on 3979
21:11:33  <TrueBrain> 3978, not? :)
21:11:37  <frosch123> that's why dorpsgek says "outbound"
21:11:38  <TrueBrain> THESE NUMBERS ARE CONFUSING :(
21:11:58  <TrueBrain> hmm .. NAT punshing
21:11:59  <frosch123> yeah, i swapped them :)
21:12:00  <TrueBrain> fair enough
21:12:10  <TrueBrain> for most users you won't notice it .. as NAT punching ftw
21:12:18  <TrueBrain> that is true :)
21:12:40  <TrueBrain> outbound is a bit misleading, tbh
21:13:18  <frosch123> 3978 on master server, dynamic allocated on game server
21:13:26  <TrueBrain> but no: sorry glx, you are right.
21:13:45  <TrueBrain> master server is a bit weird tbh ..
21:13:50  <TrueBrain> you connect via UDP to master server
21:13:55  <TrueBrain> you need to NAT punch at that time
21:14:03  <TrueBrain> but the master server connects back (over UDP) to 3979
21:14:07  <TrueBrain> from another IP
21:14:13  <TrueBrain> to confuse the fuck out of you some more :D
21:14:50  <frosch123> but it is good that way :)
21:15:03  <TrueBrain> if you get advertised, others can play on your server, yes :)
21:15:10  <frosch123> and according to quicc, udp is the future
21:15:50  <frosch123> oh, only one c
21:17:33  <frosch123> good abbreviations have 4 letters
21:18:47  <TrueBrain> it is QUIC I guess? :)
21:19:14  <LordAro> TrueBrain: no, the other c
21:19:15  <LordAro> QUIC
21:19:25  <TrueBrain> dammit, I never get the C right :(
21:19:30  <glx> <-- indeed it works fine with just 3797 ;)
21:20:24  <glx> but usually I don't advertise because I only start server for local testing :)
21:20:29  <frosch123> noone made a pr for ottd over https though
21:20:49  <TrueBrain> I am heavily disapointed about that
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21:33:13  <Etua> I'm afraid I won't solve this today as I experience some problems with my SSH tunnel. Anyway, thanks for your help!
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21:42:41  <Samu> docking tile cost for npf is weird, sometimes it's 3 * 70, sometimes 3 * 100
21:42:52  <Samu> depending on trackdir
21:45:16  <Samu> out of 55 open pull requests, 15 are mine :(
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22:22:49  <super_sp1oky> Oh don't stop now Samu I bet you could get to 55 our of 55
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22:33:30  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD-git-hooks] LordAro approved pull request #5: Improve diagnostics from commit checker
22:38:45  <TrueBrain> w00p
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