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Log for #openttd on 4th April 2020:
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00:05:00  *** Wolf01 has quit IRC
00:09:58  <milek7> TrueBrain: it's on frontpage of HN
00:10:16  <milek7> that might explain higher website traffic ;p
00:10:27  <TrueBrain> no, that is normal at release
00:10:31  <TrueBrain> this .. could be more of a problem :P
00:12:06  <TrueBrain> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22772536
00:12:11  <TrueBrain> the first reply
00:12:16  <TrueBrain> prometheus plugin for OpenTTD :D
00:12:20  <TrueBrain> that is nice :)
00:14:13  <TrueBrain> https://pasteboard.co/J2aycyK.png
00:14:17  <TrueBrain> the new slashdot effect
00:18:40  <TrueBrain> in peak it is 600 request per second on the main page
00:18:45  <TrueBrain> the CPU went up to 1%
00:18:52  <TrueBrain> (not a typo)
00:25:27  <TrueBrain> " 69812978:34 python -u musad.py"
00:25:29  <TrueBrain> should I worry?
00:25:31  <TrueBrain> that is CPU time
00:29:08  <TrueBrain> seems it was hogging the CPU since 15th of March
00:29:10  <TrueBrain> oops :D
00:39:33  <glx> typical musad IIRC
01:00:33  <luaduck> does anyone know if there have been any major networking changes in OpenTTD 1.10?
01:00:43  <luaduck> SOAP has completely stopped processing chat messages
01:13:53  <glx> nothing major I think, but definitely some changes
01:18:22  <glx> luaduck: https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/commit/5880f1479f21157158dbe862e4cb1118e0cfbfae#diff-62e6b853aa98e14d472a3105a55b69b3 may be the reason :)
01:19:08  <luaduck> glx: I'm aware of that one, but that's just a change to the kick packet?
01:19:24  <luaduck> I don't see how that would break chat messaging
01:20:03  <glx> it's a new message type
01:21:05  <glx> inserted between LEAVE and SERVER_MESSAGE, so all types are now +1
01:26:52  <luaduck> ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh
01:27:00  <luaduck> mystery solved
01:27:17  <luaduck> that should hopefully be a relatively straightforward patch
01:27:21  <glx> what your tool was reading as chat message was server messages ;)
01:30:53  <glx> I think nobody noticed the potential issue of inserting the new type instead of appending it
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02:59:36  <tCl0ud9> I'm looking for a rubidium
03:00:26  <tCl0ud9> anyone know if this person has changed their name?
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04:45:29  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] chungy commented on issue #8057: Recognize NT 5.2 Service Pack 2 as supported in the installer https://git.io/JvbYw
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06:08:18  <ket> Hey guys, presumably setting autoclean_protected to 0 in the config file disables the function? (Asking for clarification because the wiki doesn't specify this as an option as it does for autoclean_novehicles and autoclean_unprotected and a question on the page discussion from 2010 is unanswered.)
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07:18:44  <andythenorth> o/
08:07:57  <LordAro> ket: correct
08:08:21  <LordAro> if you can update the wiki to reflect this, please do :)
08:34:40  <peter1138> Bah, my Xbox controller battery pack won't hold a charge. I paid £15-odd quid for that :(
08:36:51  <TrueBrain> when? 3 years ago? or recently?
08:38:46  <peter1138> Maybe a year ago. I've been using it wired on the PC cos I didn't have BT adapter.
08:39:06  <peter1138> And BT for the retropi
08:39:35  <ket> LordAro: Thank you, will do :)
08:43:53  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #8057: Recognize NT 5.2 Service Pack 2 as supported in the installer https://git.io/JvbYw
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09:36:33  <TrueBrain>     Update: changes made via content-api
09:36:34  <TrueBrain>      - newgrf/4e4d4c01 (by regression)
09:36:34  <TrueBrain> \o/
09:36:35  <TrueBrain> :D
09:36:50  <LordAro> \o/
09:38:56  <TrueBrain> Author: OpenTTD Content API <content-api@openttd.org>
09:39:01  <TrueBrain> good enough for me
09:39:08  <TrueBrain> (that email is a black-hole email address, as a FYI
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09:47:56  <planetmaker> <glx> [01:30:53] I think nobody noticed the potential issue of inserting the new type instead of appending it <-- omg, THAT was what I spend hours on and why it didn't work for me...!
09:48:08  <planetmaker> gonna need to test that :|
09:49:52  <TrueBrain> it is a bit evil, to do this :P
09:50:06  <TrueBrain> at least it forces a round of tool-updates, a "who-is-still-alive" check ;)
09:50:22  <TrueBrain> (nah; it is just a big boo-boo to do it like this)
09:51:53  <LordAro> 01:12:16 < TrueBrain> prometheus plugin for OpenTTD :D
09:51:58  <LordAro> oh hey, kragniz
09:55:26  <LordAro> "Super off topic, but why does this site look like its from the 90s?" from the hackernews post :D
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10:17:09  <andythenorth> this one? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22772536
10:18:27  <andythenorth> I think we should keep the retro website
10:18:58  <TrueBrain> okay, more regressions added ... "dependencies" and "compatibility" is now also in scope. w00p .. what a shitty boring job to do, adding regressions ..
10:19:13  * andythenorth gives TrueBrain a cookie
10:19:49  <TrueBrain> ty
10:20:10  <TrueBrain> 1 TODO in the code left, implement OpenTTD login
10:20:14  <TrueBrain> so that is a good thing, I guess
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11:26:48  <Wolf01> Let's see what steam is offeri... NO bad wolf, you have 20 (TWENTY) games to redeem from HB Choices
11:32:40  <andythenorth> hmm we have to do something about daylength :P
11:33:15  <andythenorth> :D
11:35:18  <Wolf01> Yes
11:35:43  <Wolf01> Decouple the date from the game speed
11:36:12  <Wolf01> So you can keep the date at his own pace while you fast forward
11:37:09  <Wolf01> Economy should be tick based and not date based
11:37:36  <Wolf01> Grf introduction dates will still be based on the date
11:37:48  <Wolf01> This is my idea
11:38:32  <andythenorth> I considered 20 year-long tech eras
11:39:03  <andythenorth> OpenTTD could automatically figure which era a vehicle belongs to by default,, based on dates
11:39:09  <planetmaker> I think the main question which needs answering is where we can do without the accuracy as-now: do we care about yearly costs (or per tick)? Does monthly production matter (or per tick)?
11:39:11  <andythenorth> then player could adjust era length
11:39:27  <planetmaker> my idea is that costs are currently balanced as per-tick.
11:39:43  <planetmaker> (and production etc as we don't have vehicles move slower
11:39:51  <andythenorth> the era would prevent the spacing out of related vehicle introductions, the intro date would be same relative to era start
11:40:08  <andythenorth> but the era might be 20 years or 100 years
11:40:10  <andythenorth> 'new wave'
11:43:21  <andythenorth> meh, my idea fails
11:43:32  <andythenorth> we have to support from year 0 to max game year
11:43:59  <andythenorth> so if player changes era length to 40 not 20
11:44:28  <andythenorth> a train with intro date of 1950 would arrive in 3900, not 1970
11:44:31  <andythenorth> fails
11:45:12  <FLHerne> andythenorth: By far the most clamouring for "daylength" is the realism brigade
11:45:31  <Wolf01> You might want a concept of era like mashinky one
11:45:31  <FLHerne> Anything that makes the intro dates not the 'right' ones is a non-solution
11:45:39  <FLHerne> (I think I've said that before)
11:45:44  <TrueBrain> what always puzzled me .. what is daylength trying to solve? I see many answers to that question, which makes any solution reallllyyyy difficult :)
11:46:41  <andythenorth> TrueBrain I have asked this question so many times :)
11:46:43  <andythenorth> I should get the logs :P
11:46:47  <Wolf01> TB: mainly the "I want to play with steam trains longer without the game filling my vehicle list with new ones"
11:46:57  <FLHerne> ^that
11:47:01  <planetmaker> my take on reasoning: time passes too fast at the normal building speed and you cannot use many vehicles as they are already obsolete when you can care about them
11:47:11  <planetmaker> Thus years pass by too quickly to use vehicles
11:47:40  <TrueBrain> well, at least 3 similar opinions; that is a first :D
11:47:40  <Wolf01> Also playing an eternal 1940, 1970, or 2100 is an option
11:47:40  <FLHerne> There was a side-effect that one version reduced cargo production, which was useful to a similar set of players
11:47:47  <planetmaker> so if we had 1950a ... 1950j we'd have a 10x daylength factor and ... probably most people be content
11:48:00  <FLHerne> (because realistic networks tend not to be capacity-optimal)
11:48:31  <FLHerne> But JGRPP has separate settings for that, so it's orthogonal now
11:48:57  <planetmaker> orthogonal years and production probably is sensible. More content people
11:49:06  <planetmaker> as you can have it the way you want
11:49:12  <planetmaker> then it's just a matter of defaults
11:49:29  <FLHerne> Also, the new linear town cargo really helps with that
11:49:51  <FLHerne> 1950a->j would look a bit silly, but I'd be ok with it
11:50:07  <Wolf01> I say, I'm happy with the way transport fever implemented it: the economy is always the same no matter the daylength is, if you want to speed up the economy just fast forward
11:50:14  <planetmaker> of course it looks silly. Was just an illustration. The GUI should make it look somewhat different :)
11:50:45  <planetmaker> Wolf01, what about vehicle speed, thus delivery of goods there?
11:50:52  <planetmaker> is it affected by daylength?
11:51:01  <Wolf01> You want to be able to build an entire network in 1880? Pause the date, build some routes, fast forward for some hours, build the network, unpause the date
11:51:32  <planetmaker> But... that does work with openttd nowadays, too
11:51:42  <planetmaker> but then you'd hardly unpause the game :P
11:51:49  <Wolf01> Except that you can't pause the date in OTTD
11:52:04  <planetmaker> vehicles move while paused there?
11:52:04  <Wolf01> And vehicle don't move while paused
11:52:10  <TrueBrain> really only pause the date, and let everything else going?
11:52:11  <planetmaker> ah
11:52:13  <TrueBrain> funny :)
11:52:20  <planetmaker> it's an interesting solution tbh
11:52:28  <planetmaker> but... do you still earn money the normal way, Wolf01 ?
11:52:46  <andythenorth> my case is really simple
11:53:00  <andythenorth> I made a newgrf with 6 generations of trains 1860-2020
11:53:00  <Wolf01> Yes, you earn B in 1 hour no matter if the daylength is 1 or 40x
11:53:10  <planetmaker> ah, ok
11:53:18  <andythenorth> the generations are ~30 years apart
11:53:33  <andythenorth> I only just finish upgrading 1 generation, then the next 1 appears
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11:53:42  <planetmaker> So the monthly production statistics are affected by daylength. It could be infinity (if you pause) and it could be some minimum, if you have time progress
11:53:51  <andythenorth> I could just my case this in newgrf, but eddi said I should do it properly
11:53:56  <andythenorth> just fix *
11:54:06  <Wolf01> So you can play eternally with the first electric engine in ~1910 while upgrading your network a piece at time
11:54:16  <michi_cc> TF2 does daylength the most simple way: Instead of years X, X+1, X+2 etc, on 2x you have years X H1, X H2, X+1 H1 etc, 4x X Q1, X Q2, X Q3, X Q4, X+1 Q1 etc. And it is really nothing more than just a label, as even the "yearly" income sheet simply gets its columns renamed.
11:54:33  <Wolf01> ^
11:55:16  <andythenorth> I am considering remapping the eras in Iron Horse
11:55:22  <Wolf01> Also, you see more columns or less colums depending on daylength, but that's just a scale, since you can change it as you want
11:55:26  <andythenorth> parameter: mostly realistic, mostly gameplay
11:55:27  <michi_cc> Nothing else is adjusted in any way and no speed/production etc is scaled. Of course, this approach does not allow fine-grained, odd factors.
11:56:14  <Wolf01> Also if you pause the date you see the charts in minutes IIRC
11:56:59  <planetmaker> So just have the game progress normally. And have the date counter (and related monthly, yearly) interval change according to date. Don't care about monthly / yearly values, just treat them as "every X ticks (how many that is now with daylength 1)
11:57:45  <Wolf01> Yes
11:58:30  <michi_cc> It would potentially break the text in some (industry) NewGRFs, if they mention months or years.
11:58:43  <michi_cc> But that is really only a cosmetic problem.
11:59:07  <planetmaker> yes
11:59:30  <planetmaker> it might also mention other newgrf texts in vehicles which mention yearly costs (like maintenance / running...)
11:59:37  <planetmaker> but that's the same cosmetic category
11:59:39  <Wolf01> We could provide a callback for conversion of ticks*length for grfs
11:59:50  <planetmaker> it should be done automatic
11:59:54  <michi_cc> Like e.g. something coded to last 25 production cycles, which is normally three months.
12:00:16  <michi_cc> So a text that says "every three months" would be wrong then.
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12:02:14  <michi_cc> A solution for new NewGRFs would be a global var with the current scaling factor and/or a string formatting code for "ticks in humane unit".
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12:04:19  <andythenorth> :)
12:04:35  <Wolf01> andythenorth is happy, let's do it
12:05:08  <andythenorth> or I just fix it in newgrf :P
12:05:12  <andythenorth> it would take about 10 minutes :)
12:05:17  <andythenorth> this is why I love content APIs
12:05:48  <andythenorth> intro_date = _intro_date + offset :P
12:10:18  <andythenorth> hmm the fake month names idea was appealing
12:10:27  <andythenorth> so we could have 6 month years, or 28 month years
12:11:46  <FLHerne> michi_cc's idea was better :P
12:12:32  <andythenorth> last game I just set the date back every 5 years or so
12:16:40  <andythenorth> do we need realism dates?
12:16:46  <andythenorth> how about just 'year 1' etc?
12:16:55  <andythenorth> too orwellian?
12:22:24  <LordAro> would be a bit difficult to resolve introduction years
12:22:49  <LordAro> michi_cc: how would OTTD deal with day & months with the X H1, X Q1 form? just repeat them?
12:24:25  <Wolf01> Do we have leap years in current OTTD?
12:32:17  <LordAro> yes
12:47:46  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on issue #8057: Recognize NT 5.2 Service Pack 2 as supported in the installer https://git.io/JvbYw
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12:49:15  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] aha999 opened issue #8059: Escape button should open a game menu https://git.io/JvboC
12:51:01  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #8059: Escape button should open a game menu https://git.io/JvboC
12:52:09  <andythenorth> hmm if we measured game periods in productions cycles
12:52:18  <andythenorth> that would aid a minor FIRS headache :P
12:53:06  <andythenorth> FIRS gives players feedback about '3 month' delivery windows
12:53:31  <andythenorth> but they won't always be 3 months, due to when callbacks run
12:53:47  <andythenorth> it's hardly noticeable, but eh
12:56:10  <Wolf01> Aahaha, nice reply LordAro
12:56:33  <LordAro> Wolf01: it's not like i disagree... but there's no obvious candidate
12:56:45  <LordAro> savegame, perhaps?
12:57:17  <Wolf01> Yeah, we don't even have a classic "save, load, options, go to title, exit to desktop" menu
12:57:17  <LordAro> it could "click" on the settings toolbar icon :p
12:57:28  <glx> or "main" menu (the one with exit)
12:57:44  <LordAro> maybe we should have one
12:57:50  <LordAro> but that's a rather larger issue
12:58:17  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] aha999 commented on issue #8059: Escape button should open a game menu https://git.io/JvboC
12:58:31  <LordAro> like that
12:58:34  <Wolf01> :D
12:58:47  <glx> of course we don't have that :)
12:58:59  <LordAro> ok, can i close it as "too vague, and we don't like vague suggestions in our issue tracker"
12:59:05  <LordAro> "feel free to open a PR"
12:59:18  <Wolf01> Feature request
12:59:42  <LordAro> there's a few other issues that should probably be closed in that case
12:59:55  * LordAro sets andythenorth on them
13:00:13  <glx> we could just add the label
13:00:26  <FLHerne> So, I changed apparently nothing, but now I seem to be getting the mysterious macOS perf symptoms with 1.9.3 on Linux :-/
13:00:46  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #8018: Visual Studio/OpenTTD Baseset installation folder vs Regression build https://git.io/Jv017
13:00:46  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro closed issue #8018: Visual Studio/OpenTTD Baseset installation folder vs Regression build https://git.io/Jv017
13:01:00  <FLHerne> Graphics FPS drops to <2  (!) if one of those news popups is visible
13:01:09  <LordAro> FLHerne: you should upgrade to 1.10.0 :p
13:01:20  <FLHerne> And roughly halves if anything animated it
13:01:24  <FLHerne> *is
13:01:52  <FLHerne> LordAro: Reddit S1 hasn't yet, and I use jgrpp for single-player
13:02:07  <FLHerne> Oh, since current jgrpp is
13:02:20  <FLHerne> ~1.10 in that respect, I should see if that's affected
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13:02:45  <glx> yeah the news FPS drop issue should be fixed in 1.10
13:02:48  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #7970: Crash in crash handler - Assertion failed at line 2981 of window.cpp https://git.io/JvsUh
13:02:49  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro closed issue #7970: Crash in crash handler - Assertion failed at line 2981 of window.cpp https://git.io/JvsUh
13:03:24  <FLHerne> Seems fine
13:03:45  <FLHerne> The odd thing is that I've had 1.9.3 since it was released
13:03:52  <Wolf01> Hmm, I just noticed 2x gui sprites need the new icons in the right size
13:03:53  <LordAro> FLHerne: curious that it would just start happening though
13:04:04  <LordAro> any recent system/graphics driver updates?
13:04:09  <FLHerne> And I've not noticed it becoming unplayable with every news popup before :P
13:04:13  <FLHerne> No
13:04:28  <FLHerne> Well, not since 2 days ago when I last played
13:04:57  <michi_cc> LordAro: For OTTD, you would probably create a second DAY_TICKS factor for use with all explicitly date based things, while most things like CBs stay tick-based.
13:05:17  <LordAro> yeah
13:05:20  <LordAro> the tricky bit is "most"
13:06:16  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #8029: Black screen on SDL2-enabled OpenTTD, Sway and SDL_VIDEODRIVER=wayland https://git.io/Jv23P
13:11:10  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #8049: Suggestion: Allow Game Scripts to set company loan beyond max loan and independent of cash on hand https://git.io/Jv7Jj
13:11:32  <Wolf01> Oh shit andy.... I confused wood with timber :(
13:12:56  <Wolf01> I need a cable lifter road type, it would really suit the current map
13:16:09  <FLHerne> andythenorth: I just discovered that jgrpp has an 'equal distribution' mode for cargodist, and per-cargo mode settings
13:16:22  <FLHerne> This makes the supply mechanics actually work :D
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14:25:21  <andythenorth> FLHerne does it fix the issue that only 2 cdist destinations can be served from 1 pickup station?
14:26:14  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Is that a thing? Can't say I've noticed it
14:26:22  <andythenorth> it's a thing
14:27:10  <andythenorth> cdist doesn't discover the new link, then vehicles don't get a load, so cdist still doesn't discover the link
14:27:17  <andythenorth> then the station blocks
14:27:33  <andythenorth> then station rating falls, so the vehicle doesn't get a load; repeat
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14:29:55  <Wolf01> andythenorth: is possible to have a grf with a roadtype and a vehicle?
14:30:02  <andythenorth> yes
14:30:05  <andythenorth> Hog does it
14:30:29  <Wolf01> Hog has cable lifter for wood/coal?
14:30:33  <andythenorth> enforced separation of roadtypes / railtypes from there vehicles is so weird
14:30:40  <andythenorth> hog does not have that :P
14:30:41  <andythenorth> ropeway?
14:30:46  <Wolf01> Ropeway yes
14:34:47  <Wolf01> https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?t=61471 ahah I want this too, for roads, not rails
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15:33:38  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] samcat116 commented on issue #7826: Mac OS binaries are unsigned https://git.io/Je2bo
15:38:14  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 15458434 commented on issue #7826: Mac OS binaries are unsigned https://git.io/Je2bo
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15:43:02  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on issue #7826: Mac OS binaries are unsigned https://git.io/Je2bo
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16:05:55  <TrueBrain> Good reply andythenorth
16:06:50  <TrueBrain> Easy to assume we can do everything ... difficult to put into action :)
16:07:17  <nielsm> I don't think a random person can create a legal entity for openttd and get a code signing certificate
16:07:25  <nielsm> it would be a problem if they could, really
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16:08:40  <TrueBrain> No, but we mostly need help how to get it done
16:09:26  <TrueBrain> Without making a single person liable, ofc
16:09:50  <nielsm> well apple has two ways to register developer accounts, as an individual or as an organisation, question is if any one person wants to have their name plastered on all macos releases as the sole person responsible?
16:10:28  <TrueBrain> I think I just answered that :p :D
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16:12:59  <TrueBrain> I understand why all the major vendors (including Steam, Apple, etc) want legal entities .. but for Open Source projects it is difficult ...
16:13:19  <milek7> you can have individual account for Steam too
16:16:20  <TrueBrain> And we are back to: without making a single person liable :)
16:18:21  <milek7> eh, personally I wouldn't care ;p
16:18:47  <TrueBrain> depending on the country you live in, you kinda should ;)
16:19:16  <TrueBrain> but I guess more the point is: having a bus-factor of 1 is .. not so nice
16:19:41  <nielsm> let's upgrade that to a rona-factor of 1
16:19:43  <nielsm> :P
16:19:52  <TrueBrain> owh no he didn't :D
16:20:53  <TrueBrain> you slowly see these umbrella corps being created that allow you to use their corp for these things, for Open Source world
16:20:56  <TrueBrain> but it is a slow process
16:21:00  <TrueBrain> with a lot of legal blablablabla
16:22:25  <TrueBrain> I noticed that the EV cert needed for MS signing has similar issue btw .. it needs a legal entity (which makes sense .. that is what EV certs should proof)
16:22:44  <milek7> EV is stupidly expensive
16:22:52  <TrueBrain> you can get it for under 100 dollars
16:22:55  <TrueBrain> so it is kinda okay
16:23:01  <milek7> EV? where?
16:23:07  <TrueBrain> the EV needed for MS certs
16:23:23  <TrueBrain> it was in the link in the issue tracker
16:23:35  <nielsm> I'd gladly chip in for a proper signing cert
16:23:44  <TrueBrain> money really isn't the issue
16:23:45  <milek7> i think EV is for kernel mode drivers
16:24:11  <nielsm> yeah I think most of us are at the age where money isn't a major issue
16:24:14  <TrueBrain> hell, we once flew a dev over from Canada to enjoy the r10000 celebration in Germany :P
16:24:20  <nielsm> :D
16:24:26  <milek7> and instant smartscreen reputation, but standard cert also changes message to less scary and warning goes away with some time
16:24:57  <TrueBrain> the problem really comes down to: if you use a single person to get these certs, you need to answer two questions: 1) what if that person disapears, 2) what if that person is being sued
16:25:57  <TrueBrain> I tihnk there are 4 devs from 2007 still active in OpenTTD, so you could say they are never going to leave now .. but that is still a real thing to consider
16:26:02  <TrueBrain> and 2) is just .. a pain ..
16:26:17  <milek7> 1) cert usually have 1-year validity, so you just get another one
16:26:44  <TrueBrain> the other thing we explored many times: what if we get some kind of LLC in some country
16:26:53  <TrueBrain> but .. nobody understands enough legal bla to figure that out, really
16:27:01  <TrueBrain> so it always ends with: we should look into this
16:29:44  <milek7> https://i.imgur.com/8HLMOQw.png
16:29:52  <milek7> this one was ~30$, but expired now
16:36:22  <TrueBrain> I still think having OpenTTD in Steam would be fun :D I tried emailing Steam about how to get it on their store as Open Source project, but they never replied to any mail, except the: this is the wrong place to ask this, you should ask <other location here>
16:36:25  <TrueBrain> which was just annoying
16:36:35  <TrueBrain> I understand they don't care .. it still is annoying :P
16:39:32  <milek7> steam is bit silly
16:39:33  <Artea> hello
16:39:35  <milek7>  I had to fill all their tax paperwork, bank account number, etc even if my product is free ;D
16:40:48  <milek7> (not mine actually, open source simulator)
16:41:00  <Artea> ./home/artea/openttd-1.10.0/src/gfx_layout.cpp: In member function ‘virtual std::unique_ptr<const ParagraphLayouter::Line> FallbackParagraphLayout::NextLine(int ’:
16:41:00  <Artea> ./home/artea/openttd-1.10.0/src/gfx_layout.cpp:513:10: error: cannot bind ‘std::unique_ptr<FallbackParagraphLayout::FallbackLine>’ lvalue to ‘std::unique_ptr<FallbackParagraphLayout::FallbackLine>&&’
16:41:00  <Artea>    return l;
16:41:06  <Artea> is this normal ?
16:41:18  <nielsm> no
16:41:26  <nielsm> which compiler version?
16:41:59  <Artea> not sure
16:42:10  <Artea> I didnt checked much of CentOS 7
16:42:29  <Artea> (re)new VPS
16:42:34  <nielsm> check the log from the configure script which compiler it detects and uses, then run it with the --version flag
16:43:22  <nielsm> but it looks like it has to do with text layout, if you intend to run a server (since you mention a VPS) you should just disable all graphics stuff like the SDL1/SDL2 drivers and ICU support
16:43:59  <nielsm> unless that happens when you build without ICU or without a graphical video driver or something in which case it would be a bug
16:44:24  <Artea> I dont think I had to do much in 1.9.x
16:45:52  <Artea> https://pastebin.com/3mf3axUk
16:47:22  <nielsm> /usr/include/c++/4.8.2/bits/unique_ptr.h
16:47:25  <nielsm> that 4.8.2... is that GCC version?
16:47:33  <nielsm> try running this command:
16:47:34  <Artea> I enable dedicated
16:47:37  <nielsm> g++ --version
16:48:05  <Artea> g++ (GCC) 4.8.5 20150623 (Red Hat 4.8.5-39)
16:48:14  <nielsm> yeah that's probably too old
16:48:34  <nielsm> you should be using GCC 8.x or 9.x
16:48:34  <Artea> I went update that for some unknown reason
16:48:49  <Artea> dont know why is installed this version
16:50:19  <nielsm> if you don't know how to upgrade it my best suggestions is to backup all important data and wipe and reinstall your VPS to a newer OS version
16:51:46  <Artea> but it is
16:51:51  <Artea> is the recent VPS by OVH
16:52:08  <milek7> centos 8.1 is current
16:53:23  <TrueBrain> OVH only has CentOS 7.2 still, I believe
16:53:28  <TrueBrain> which comes with GCC 4.8.5
16:53:39  <TrueBrain> (CentOS freezes its gcc version within major versions)
16:54:51  <TrueBrain> I believe OVH only has modern Debian in their templates
17:02:22  <andythenorth> I also suspect someone could just register the entity
17:02:24  <andythenorth> anyone
17:02:32  <andythenorth> and then get a signing cert
17:02:48  <andythenorth> are certs locked to domain names in any way?
17:02:52  * andythenorth assumes not
17:05:11  <nielsm> at least in Denmark the only type of entity that seems to make sense is an association (forening) and those require at least two members, two members of board, and formal bylaws
17:05:19  <nielsm> so not possible to register as a single person
17:05:35  <TrueBrain> most countries also have a type for non-profit stuff
17:05:41  <TrueBrain> "stichting" in Dutch
17:05:53  <TrueBrain> main drawback in Dutch .. the name of the company needs to have the word "Stichting" in it
17:06:00  <Artea> Thanks
17:06:06  <Artea> I will work out this another time
17:07:24  <TrueBrain> I do wonder how free you are to pick the name on a Code Signing Cert, tbh
17:07:42  <TrueBrain> can it differ from the name of the legal entity, and who sets the name :D
17:07:57  <andythenorth> I could register a UK limited company with an agent, and start signing malware
17:08:05  <andythenorth> eventually I'd be traced
17:08:08  <andythenorth> but eh
17:08:16  <TrueBrain> you call OpenTTD malware now? :p
17:08:24  <nielsm> an actual foundation in danish law requires a capital of one million DKK, as far as I can tell, a regular business with limited liability requires a capital of 40,000 DKK, and a limited liability association is just required to be conducting actual business
17:08:28  <andythenorth> do we not have a coin-miner in it?
17:08:45  <nielsm> (I don't think openttd can be considered to be conducting business, nobody here is selling any products or services)
17:08:54  <TrueBrain> nielsm: I always find it funny, how countries do this differently :D
17:09:09  <andythenorth> as it pegs my CPU to 90% I assumed OpenTTD was coin-mining :P
17:09:32  <andythenorth> 90% of 1 thread unit *
17:09:33  <TrueBrain> if you have a company for "ideals", you can create a "stichting" here .. can be run by a single person, you don't need any starting capital ..
17:09:44  <andythenorth> eh that leaves 15 thread units for coin mining
17:10:22  <nielsm> TrueBrain but can a single person form a limited liability stichting?
17:10:49  <nielsm> in fact can an "ideal stichting" even have limited liability?
17:10:55  <TrueBrain> from what I understand, but IANAL, there are two forms: one where you are, as person, still responsible, and one form where you are not
17:11:12  <andythenorth> it's not something to do lightly anywhere, if we have one person then bus factor
17:11:41  <TrueBrain> no, forget what I just said, that is for "verenigingen", similar to the first one you mention (at least 2 people, members, meetings, bla)
17:12:10  <TrueBrain> within a stichting, you are only liable if you, as director, delibratly made mistakes (that is true for any corperation in the netherlands)
17:12:26  <andythenorth> similar to UK company law
17:13:09  <Eddi|zuHause> if we're going to organize in any way, it should probably be some pan-european thing instead of a single country
17:13:23  <TrueBrain> yes, lets complicate this even more :D
17:13:31  <Eddi|zuHause> and there should be multiple people in charge
17:13:40  <TrueBrain> nielsm: every time I try to read up on this in Dutch law, I just realise I am not a lawyer, and fail to understand the implications :)
17:15:31  <andythenorth> it looked more helpful to try and get Apache Foundation or similar to adopt us
17:16:01  <andythenorth> we don't have enough people to do an nml release, running a legal org is blah blah trouble :)
17:18:25  <TrueBrain> funny, a "stichting" is now allowed to use the profit for anything else except to pay other stichting-like-goals :)
17:20:11  <TrueBrain> 300 euro to start one,including all legal documents
17:20:12  <TrueBrain> lol
17:20:32  <milek7> >can it differ from the name of the legal entity
17:20:34  <milek7> I guess not, that's the point of cert
17:21:05  <TrueBrain> that is the part that always hold me back to fix this in the Netherlands .. as that would mean if you start openttd.txt, you see "Stichting OpenTTD"
17:21:08  <TrueBrain> which would look REAL silly
17:21:17  <TrueBrain> openttd.txt? openttd.exe
17:21:18  <TrueBrain> :P
17:21:48  <nielsm> how about OpenTTD F.M.B.A.
17:22:00  <milek7> mine had 'Miłosz Rachwał, Open Source Developer'
17:22:03  <milek7> but people really don't care as long it makes security warnings less scary ;P
17:22:17  <TrueBrain> nielsm: prtty sure that would too result in questions on the forum :)
17:22:33  <TrueBrain> in the end, I don't think it really matters; we just need a clear story about it
17:23:21  <nielsm> "strange combination of letters required for a limited liability entity in <random EU state>"
17:24:23  <TrueBrain> yeah, well, that is the good thing I guess. A "stichting" is a full legal entity. I guess the same is for your form of corp, ofc. The only thing you really need overhere, is a set of rules of people get in the board and are pushed out of the board
17:24:27  <TrueBrain> that is the only thing you have to put in writing
17:24:42  <TrueBrain> other than that, it is not really tight to a real person, from what I understand
17:24:56  <Eddi|zuHause> <TrueBrain> funny, a "stichting" is now allowed to use the profit for anything else except to pay other stichting-like-goals :) <-- you likely have to draw up some kind of "constitution" that lists all things that it may spend money on
17:25:12  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: not from what I can find
17:25:22  <TrueBrain> seems it is more on a .. "you shouldn't do this"
17:25:49  <nielsm> Eddi|zuHause: I don't think there is a way to have a non-business-conducting entity in the EU/EEA that does not belong to a particular nation state
17:26:13  <TrueBrain> I somehow hope that doesn't exist tbh :) But .. IANAL .. so who knows :D
17:27:57  <TrueBrain> fun thing about a "stichting", the nationality of people in the board is irrelevant, it seems
17:28:28  <michi_cc> Well, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Foundation_Project is shelved for now
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17:30:00  <LordAro> Mr Open Ttd, CEO of OpenTTD Inc
17:30:10  <TrueBrain> seeing mailman going in the street these days is funny
17:30:14  <TrueBrain> he puts down the package at the door
17:30:15  <TrueBrain> rings the bell
17:30:20  <TrueBrain> walks away 2 meters
17:30:23  <TrueBrain> waits for the door to open
17:30:26  <TrueBrain> says hi
17:30:28  <TrueBrain> walks away
17:30:47  <TrueBrain> social distancing in its finest
17:30:54  <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc: https://www.faz.net/einspruch/kommentar-es-ist-zeit-fuer-ein-europaeisches-vereinsrecht-16357796.html?premium=0x9e32e01b9d32046970dd21f9de02d48b <-- doesn't sound overly promising
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17:31:23  <TrueBrain> LordAro: fun thing is, OpenTTD Inc would be a fine name for anyone. But the Europe-translations of that .. somehow that feels off :P
17:31:41  <TrueBrain> I wonder what documents an EV Cert requires for these kind of corps
17:31:46  <TrueBrain> as you don't have an ID of sorts
17:32:37  <nielsm> well there's also the question, would we be willing to pay a lawyer to advise on this?
17:32:44  <nielsm> alternate question*
17:33:01  <milek7> you keep talking about EV, but I think you mean something else? EV is _really_ stupidly expensive
17:33:02  <TrueBrain> 500 euro for an EV Code Signing Cert .. holy crap
17:33:17  <TrueBrain> milek7: no, I mean EV. Like really. EV.
17:33:30  <TrueBrain> nielsm: good question .. we need someone with a bit more legal knowledge :D
17:33:49  <TrueBrain> what I can do, is call a company her ein the Netherlands on monday that might have some experience with Open Source corps, and see what is "normal" there
17:33:54  <TrueBrain> but .. these questions are a bit rare
17:33:55  <milek7> OV certs are around 100$
17:34:35  <milek7> and I don't think you need EV to do kernel drivers
17:34:43  <Eddi|zuHause> can we get advice from FSF without signing all our licenses over to them (which we can't really do anyway?)
17:34:50  <TrueBrain> it never stops to amase me how rich CAs got from this cert-stuff :)
17:37:07  <nielsm> one starting point would be outlining requirements and nice-to-haves for the form of organisation we want...
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17:37:24  <milek7> you officialy also need smartcard to store private key
17:38:17  <milek7> (though it's possible to get around that with VMs and emulated tpm)
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17:39:29  <nielsm> requirements: ownership of code? ownership of domain names and server accounts? capital? receive donations (and taxation or not)? membership/board membership? liability in case of legal action?
17:39:59  <planetmaker> hm, is an OpenTTD org again on the table?
17:40:13  <nielsm> yes, because users are asking about code signing
17:40:16  <nielsm> for both windows and mac
17:40:23  <planetmaker> uh, I see
17:40:28  <TrueBrain> nielsm: all good questions :) Just remember we don't need them answered to get the code signing done, but I agree with your questions :)
17:40:29  <planetmaker> what a PITA
17:45:51  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master https://git.io/JvbSm
17:45:51  <DorpsGek_III>   - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
17:47:48  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on issue #8056: OpenTTD's installer should be signed https://git.io/Jvbkk
17:49:38  <milek7> TrueBrain: >"with what-ever legal entity requested"
17:49:49  <milek7> their open source offer is limited to individual persons
17:50:01  <nielsm> TrueBrain: I have a smartcard reader (NFC type only) :)
17:50:28  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on issue #7826: Mac OS binaries are unsigned https://git.io/Je2bo
17:50:51  <TrueBrain> nielsm: we all have NFC-based smartcard readers, don't we? I call it a phone :P
17:50:52  <TrueBrain> :D
17:52:15  <TrueBrain> milek7: source?
17:54:19  <milek7> https://www.certum.pl/pl/cert_oferta_open_source_signing/
17:54:23  <milek7> "Certyfikaty Open Source Code Signing wydajemy wyłącznie na osoby fizyczne."
17:54:49  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] stormcone commented on pull request #8058: Fix #8055: Fix crash when the road toolbar is open, but the availabil… https://git.io/JvbSg
17:55:29  <TrueBrain> milek7: funny, as the english version of their pages are constantly explicitly naming users and organization
17:55:45  <TrueBrain> anyway, please don't mention these things here, but mention them in the issue-tracker
17:55:55  <TrueBrain> it is what they are for :) Collect information in a central place :)
17:56:21  <TrueBrain> just please mention sources, makes it easier to validate claims :)
17:56:46  <TrueBrain> funny, Certum doesn't mention Apple in their code signing certs
17:56:48  <TrueBrain> digicert does
17:56:54  <TrueBrain> this world is just messed up, tbfh
17:59:55  <milek7> I wonder if I'm allowed to sign code for other projects than specified in application
18:00:07  <milek7> I guess probably not
18:01:36  <andythenorth> seriously, I think we could solve 1/3 of daylength requests just by making it 'not a cheat' to set year back
18:02:40  <andythenorth> I have gone back 1945->1938 3 times in this game
18:04:11  <Wolf01> To enjoy more of WWII?
18:04:52  <TrueBrain> I still like the "freeze the date" :)
18:05:00  <TrueBrain> it is simple, elegant, anyone can understand it
18:06:43  <milek7> X-axis on graph, money window history though? change to "2 years ago, 3 years ago, etc."?
18:07:26  <TrueBrain> how is that a question if time stands still?
18:08:34  <Wolf01> Ha! I found a german transport fever player with a OTTD avatar
18:09:10  <TrueBrain> okay, Content API can reload its database from disk .. with a webhook .. what else was there to do ..
18:09:42  <TrueBrain> GitHub module, so it pushes and pulls from GitHub ..
18:09:52  <TrueBrain> S3 support, so it stores the files there
18:09:59  <TrueBrain> I think .... that is it ...
18:10:03  <TrueBrain> this list is getting really small :D
18:11:45  <andythenorth> 'freeze' | 'unfreeze'
18:12:43  <TrueBrain> it is  not a perfect solution, freezing time, but it makes answering all these questions about daylength really easy tbh
18:13:13  <andythenorth> if it was on/off option, would work for me
18:13:20  <TrueBrain> a toggle, yes
18:13:23  <TrueBrain> like pause/unpause
18:13:32  <andythenorth> groundhog day mode
18:13:53  <TrueBrain> there are some parts of the code that needs attention of course .. as some maintaince code is hooked into the fact the date progresses
18:13:59  <TrueBrain> maintenenenenencace code
18:14:01  <TrueBrain> I hate that word
18:14:37  <TrueBrain> well, not all questions are fully trivial
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18:14:44  <TrueBrain> farmland, should it advance in animation? :D
18:15:49  <Wolf01> https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2015954130 wtf... andythenorth get some inspiration
18:16:51  <andythenorth> :D
18:17:07  <Wolf01> The trailing cars are part of the vehicle
18:30:16  <Artea> yay
18:30:20  <Artea> compiling GCC :D
18:31:21  <Eddi|zuHause> @artea how many days does that take nowadays?
18:31:38  <Artea> a little
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18:45:02  <ja> i had a crash with directorai
18:45:27  <ja> is it a known bug? did i do something wrong? i am a newbie, just started the scandinavian scenario with 1.10
18:45:40  <ja> *FUNCTION [BridgeUpgrader()] dictatorai-169/handler/checks.nut line [436]
18:45:56  <ja> screenshot: https://hushfile.it/api/file?fileid=5e88d58dbe33d
18:56:12  <LordAro> ja: you'll need to report it to the creator of directorai, not us
18:56:16  <Eddi|zuHause> ja: try to look for the thread of DictatorAI in the forums
18:56:48  <LordAro> AIs are created by other users, sometimes they are broken
18:56:56  <LordAro> definitely not something you did :)
19:06:24  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #8058: Fix #8055: Fix crash when the road toolbar is open, but the availabil… https://git.io/Jvb9A
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19:21:03  <ja> all right. thanks!
19:21:15  <ja> is there a way to remove money? i used the cheat and now i have too much :P
19:21:48  <glx> I think the cheat works both ways
19:30:12  <ja> aaah, it just doesn't take you negative, that's why i thought it didnt. thanks!
19:34:16  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] samcat116 commented on issue #7826: Mac OS binaries are unsigned https://git.io/Je2bo
19:41:32  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on issue #7826: Mac OS binaries are unsigned https://git.io/Je2bo
19:49:38  <TrueBrain> I am not sure that claim is true. You need a dev-account to publish the game, but it seems you can sign it with a Code Signing Cert ..
19:50:00  <TrueBrain> at least, that is what some sources tell, including the manual how to sign a file on Mac
19:50:08  <TrueBrain> never tested it, so hard to proof one way or the other :)
19:50:47  <TrueBrain> (proof for me)
19:50:48  <milek7> it probably needs dev-account for that 'notarization'
19:50:52  <nielsm> the thing is that apple wants you to not only sign your macos apps but also ahve them notarized
19:50:53  <nielsm> yes
19:51:12  <nielsm> apple wants to verify your software manually unlike microsoft
19:51:28  <TrueBrain> so it needs both
19:51:29  <TrueBrain> even worse :D
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20:56:26  <Zuu> Samu: I think I made the proposed changes here. Does it look alright to you? https://github.com/openttdcoop/ailib-pathfinderroad/commit/b00f7b0dc1669bb88b1ff26e9ebc07b62fc8852d
20:59:47  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] stormcone commented on pull request #8058: Fix #8055: Fix crash when the road toolbar is open, but the availabil… https://git.io/Jvbdo
21:14:54  <Samu> wow github
21:15:00  <Samu> nice, looks great
21:17:48  <Zuu> Yes some of the devzone projects have been moved there but not all yet.
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21:29:53  <Samu> i think fibonacci heap is faster than binary queue
21:30:01  <Samu> but that's just me
21:31:29  <Samu> oh, it's on GraphAyStar
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21:36:01  <Samu> needs some other ppl to test this claim
21:38:52  <Samu> https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/lib-aystar/repository/revisions/832152f6a696/entry/main.nut#L9 this line here
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21:51:15  <andythenorth> BED
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22:25:59  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #8058: Fix #8055: Fix crash when the road toolbar is open, but the availabil… https://git.io/Jvbb7
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22:29:31  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #8059: Escape button should open a game menu https://git.io/JvboC
22:29:31  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro closed issue #8059: Escape button should open a game menu https://git.io/JvboC
22:46:05  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #8058: Fix #8055: Fix crash when the road toolbar is open, but the availabil… https://git.io/JvbNl
22:56:53  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] stormcone commented on pull request #8058: Fix #8055: Fix crash when the road toolbar is open, but the availabil… https://git.io/JvbNy
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23:07:28  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #8050: Scoring year is -1 when loading old savegame https://git.io/Jv7Ei
23:07:53  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on issue #8049: Suggestion: Allow Game Scripts to set company loan beyond max loan and independent of cash on hand https://git.io/Jv7Jj
23:09:06  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #8050: Scoring year is -1 when loading old savegame https://git.io/Jv7Ei
23:31:30  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #8058: Fix #8055: Fix crash when the road toolbar is open, but the availabil… https://git.io/Jvbxv
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