Log for #openttd on 24th April 2020:
Times are UTC Toggle Colours
00:05:40  *** Wormnest_ has quit IRC
00:31:49  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] glx22 updated pull request #102: Fix #100: follow PEP440 when generating version
00:38:27  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] glx22 updated pull request #102: Fix #100: follow PEP440 when generating version
00:40:27  *** tokai|noir has joined #openttd
00:40:27  *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai|noir
00:47:20  *** tokai has quit IRC
00:57:33  *** Wormnest_ has joined #openttd
01:09:06  *** Flygon has joined #openttd
01:56:07  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne commented on pull request #102: Fix #100: follow PEP440 when generating version
02:29:20  *** D-HUND has joined #openttd
02:32:41  *** debdog has quit IRC
03:09:14  *** k-man has quit IRC
03:16:07  *** glx has quit IRC
03:18:35  *** Wormnest_ has quit IRC
03:19:20  *** k-man has joined #openttd
03:56:15  *** k-man has quit IRC
04:12:18  *** k-man has joined #openttd
04:25:04  *** Wormnest_ has joined #openttd
05:07:04  *** k-man_ has joined #openttd
05:08:13  *** k-man has quit IRC
05:18:38  *** Wormnest_ has quit IRC
05:40:56  *** snail_UES_ has quit IRC
06:02:41  *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd
06:18:30  *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
06:27:16  *** Wolf01 has joined #openttd
06:34:02  <TrueBrain> and _dp_ , you ended up being able to do some nasty shit?
06:40:06  <andythenorth> moin
06:52:17  <Wolf01> Hi
06:54:08  <andythenorth> what shall I do today?
06:54:09  <andythenorth> or
06:54:37  <andythenorth> shall I do what I'm obliged to do
06:54:49  * andythenorth knows the answer :|
06:57:12  <Xaroth> I wouldn't know... also, probably not good to ask TrueBrain as he'll likely mutter something about taking over the world.
06:57:51  <TrueBrain> its pinky, its pinky, its pinky and the brain brain brain brain brain brain brain brain
06:57:57  <Xaroth> :D
06:58:15  * andythenorth counters with log
06:58:35  <andythenorth>
07:04:53  * andythenorth will mostly be doing grown up meetings today
07:04:57  <andythenorth> and SEO
07:09:54  <TrueBrain> my idea was the work all day on AWS, but it seems work requires a bit attention too
07:09:56  *** cHawk- has quit IRC
07:10:00  <TrueBrain> (took the day off, but .. what can you do)
07:10:36  <andythenorth> I want to take the day off, I have been productive this week
07:10:52  <andythenorth> but we have monthly information security meeting booked, not optional :|
07:11:14  <TrueBrain> I feel your pain
07:11:17  <andythenorth> the risk register won't review itself!
07:12:13  <andythenorth> I noticed that overnight, we have made nml much better
07:12:18  <andythenorth> GOOD
07:13:08  *** Samu has joined #openttd
07:13:11  <Samu> hi
07:18:12  <Samu> ahem, _dp_, do you have enough patience to improve this?
07:32:18  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] andythenorth commented on pull request #103: Blacken & Flake8 nml
07:47:05  <_dp_> TrueBrain, not rly, unless it broke something that I didn't notice xD
07:47:17  <TrueBrain> :)
07:47:21  <TrueBrain> well, that is good I guess :P
07:48:49  <_dp_> csp seems to save it, non-csp browsers probably got xssed xD
07:49:30  *** supermop_Home has quit IRC
07:51:24  <_dp_> Samu, god no
08:07:07  *** Smedles has quit IRC
08:08:33  *** Smedles has joined #openttd
08:20:41  <TrueBrain> _dp_: that won't be good either; I assume there was some escaping going on tbh :)
08:21:12  <TrueBrain> owh, there is for most part
08:21:12  <TrueBrain> sweet
08:21:41  <_dp_> There is escaping but some xss doesn't rely on escaped stuff
08:21:56  <_dp_> eg it accepts javascript: and data: just fine
08:21:57  <TrueBrain> I like the data: urls :)
08:22:25  *** cHawk has joined #openttd
08:22:43  <TrueBrain> well, always feel free to (ab)use staging, and if you find a way to poke a hole, let us know :)
08:33:12  <_dp_> TrueBrain, considering I'm using same stuff for my websites it would be strange if I knew how to break it xD
08:33:57  <Eddi|zuHause> strange maybe, but not unheard of :p
08:41:44  <_dp_> modern frameworks are kinda boring
08:42:11  <_dp_> I remember in php days there were like 10 escaping methods with 9 of them being faulty xD
08:42:52  <TrueBrain> you have no idea how often this still happens ...
08:43:15  <TrueBrain> many companies don't know what OWASP top 10 is .. and they developer very large webapplications
08:43:22  <TrueBrain> s/developer/develop/
08:43:44  <TrueBrain> "we wrote our own ORM, it is faster"
08:43:47  <TrueBrain> etc
08:43:47  <TrueBrain> etc
08:45:40  <andythenorth> I used to write 'eval(user_input)'
08:45:46  <andythenorth> so that we could write code through the web
08:45:47  <andythenorth> oops
08:46:23  <_dp_> lol
08:46:37  <_dp_> and I was going full lex+yacc in private project xD
08:52:28  <TrueBrain> okay, I have a small Python script that writes the traefik configuration for the NLB .. now how do I run this when needed .. hmmm
08:55:05  *** Xetalim has joined #openttd
09:09:35  *** gelignite has joined #openttd
09:19:19  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] planetmaker commented on pull request #103: Blacken & Flake8 nml
09:24:05  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] LordAro commented on pull request #103: Blacken & Flake8 nml
09:48:43  *** cHawk has quit IRC
09:53:57  <Eddi|zuHause> <TrueBrain> "we wrote our own ORM, it is faster" <-- and each department of the company does that, so the final product ships 10 different versions of the same thing
09:54:09  <Samu> english question: "will be build" or "will be built"?
09:54:11  <TrueBrain> and they are all rubbish :P
09:54:32  <Samu> to be build, to be built?
09:54:45  <Eddi|zuHause> god forbid the departments actually talking to each other to coordinate
09:58:13  <doug16k> Samu, built
09:58:42  <Samu> openttd code comments have many of these "be build"
09:58:54  <doug16k> "built" when it tried to be the invalid word builded
09:59:36  <doug16k> past tense of build
10:00:01  <doug16k> ah it is also the future tense
10:00:51  <doug16k> I see why you ask
10:02:36  <Samu> 	/* If the two tiles are 1 tile apart and are sloped, or more than 1 tile apart, the pathfinder wants an aqueduct
10:02:36  <Samu> 	 *  to be built.
10:02:50  <Samu> or is it to be build
10:03:00  <doug16k> yes. definitely built
10:03:08  <Samu> ok, thx
10:04:50  <doug16k> that almost looks like a search and replace mistake, if I had to guess
10:05:05  <doug16k> comment bugs build up
10:05:28  <doug16k> very slowly
10:06:30  *** Smedles_ has joined #openttd
10:08:06  <doug16k> or someone knowing other languages and not perfect. I can't complain until I know two spoken languages really well :D
10:09:20  *** Smedles has quit IRC
10:11:10  <doug16k> I would love a conditional branch that branches "if the train carries mostly" and {passengers,mail,etc...} dropdown then goto
10:12:25  <doug16k> and look at the capacity of each type and see if the max one matches the criteria
10:16:11  *** andythenorth has left #openttd
10:16:17  *** syr has quit IRC
10:16:39  *** syr has joined #openttd
10:16:52  <LordAro> Samu: OTTD comments are about 70% written by Dutch or German people :p
10:25:41  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] planetmaker requested changes for pull request #103: Blacken & Flake8 nml
10:29:19  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] LordAro commented on pull request #103: Blacken & Flake8 nml
10:32:12  *** Xetalim has quit IRC
10:39:25  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] LordAro commented on pull request #103: Blacken & Flake8 nml
10:47:28  <Eddi|zuHause> doug16k: so if the train carries 40% passengers, 30% ore and 30% coal, can it justify going down the "passenger" branch even though it's 60% non-passengers?
10:49:18  <doug16k> put the priority order the same as the order it presents them when you buy. first one in that order with most wins?
10:49:46  <doug16k> ah
10:49:51  <Eddi|zuHause> that does not answer the question
10:50:19  <doug16k> it does carry mostly passengers
10:50:29  <Eddi|zuHause> but, does it really?
10:51:22  <Eddi|zuHause> can the party who got 40% of the vote claim they "won" the election, even though the two 30% parties can form a coalition against them?
10:51:55  <LordAro> Eddi|zuHause: as it turns out, yes
10:52:00  *** Tirili has joined #openttd
10:52:03  <LordAro> repeatedly.
10:52:56  <doug16k> count the cars, group by type, order descending by count,order_in_buy_screen, select top one
10:53:23  <doug16k> -order_in_buy_screen
10:53:54  <doug16k> will that not select passenger on your train?
10:54:10  <Eddi|zuHause> that's not the question
10:54:25  <Eddi|zuHause> the question is whether that decision is justified
10:54:47  <Eddi|zuHause> philosophy, not technique.
10:55:00  <Samu> @calc 303/333
10:55:00  <DorpsGek> Samu: 0.90990990991
10:55:07  <Xaroth> I think you're putting too much thought in it :P
10:55:08  <Samu> amazing :)
10:56:09  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm asking this because of two reasons: a) different players will have opposing opinions on this matter, and b) how to explain which of the methods is chosen, with very restricted space?
10:56:11  <doug16k> I want to send excessive passenger trains on an loop to a rule that says go to the sell-me maintenance building and stop
10:56:21  <Samu> yesterday it was 403 ticks, today it is down to 303
10:56:37  <Samu> making progress
10:57:42  <doug16k> what's more straightforward than conditional rule by trains primary purpose
10:58:15  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not seeing how such an order would even help you with that
11:00:04  <Eddi|zuHause> also, if you zoom out one game design level, you should ask: how many other people could find this useful for other purposes
11:00:33  <Eddi|zuHause> and i'm very far on the "this doesn't help enough people to justify putting it in" side
11:01:29  <Eddi|zuHause> and that's completely ignoring the fact that conditional orders are very incompatible with cargo distribution
11:03:47  <doug16k> you want me to have all separate rule lists to micro on all the different trains
11:04:07  *** Xetalim has joined #openttd
11:04:08  <doug16k> I want one rule program to be able to make basic decision about skipping
11:05:15  <doug16k> or as tools to make it possible to make your cars go somewhere without too much trouble if you find you have too much of one type
11:05:53  <Eddi|zuHause> how is it too much to ask that you have separate groups/orders for passenger trains and mail trains?
11:05:54  <doug16k> sitting and micromanaging cars coming into a depot is not effective use of time
11:06:52  <doug16k> then you have to go micro each type of train a station can support?
11:07:04  <doug16k> figure out the insertion point
11:07:22  <Eddi|zuHause> i've no clue what you're talking about
11:07:58  <doug16k> if I have a bunch of different rules I will end up missing places unless I micro manage each type of cargo at each station
11:08:04  <Eddi|zuHause> there's certainly loads of sources for micromanagement in this game. i fail to see how "decide whether this is a passenger or mail train" is a major contributor to that
11:08:58  <Eddi|zuHause> if at all, that is a group management feature and not an order list feature
11:10:50  <Eddi|zuHause> in any case, adding a feature that only one player in the world knows how to use is not an effective use of UI-real-estate
11:15:58  <doug16k> ya why would people want to make a rule that helps them manage the amount of a type of train is in a loop. that would never be wanted
11:16:02  <Samu> can't get lower than 303 t.t
11:16:04  <doug16k> thanks for chatting
11:17:40  <Eddi|zuHause> how is it my fault that you can't bring your point across?
11:18:46  <doug16k> I don't have to convince you, I have the source
11:19:32  <Eddi|zuHause> you don't have to convince me, but if you can't convince me, how would you convince any of the devs to include your suggestion?
11:19:36  <doug16k> I thought maybe you have a really good argument against it and everyone comes here with that rule
11:20:13  <Eddi|zuHause> as far as i'm aware you're the first person who ever wanted this specific rule
11:20:31  <doug16k> do you know assembly language?
11:20:41  <Eddi|zuHause> a bunch of people wanted other rules that would have helped their specific use case
11:20:44  <doug16k> they are conditional branches
11:20:58  <Eddi|zuHause> ... but they usually failed to make a case for how that would benefit a broader audience
11:21:05  <doug16k> I can't condition on train type
11:22:54  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but making an order list shouldn't require of a player that they know assembly language
11:23:21  <doug16k> they already are using conditional branches if they ever use conditional order
11:23:22  <Eddi|zuHause> because the median openttd player would likely not have that kind of knowledge
11:23:48  <doug16k> that order window. that's assembly language. they don't know it, but it is
11:24:01  <doug16k> there are instructions, the operands are locations
11:25:30  <doug16k> there are a bunch of flag bits in the opcode for each instruction, for load all, etc
11:25:31  <Eddi|zuHause> and many many people already can't cope with that
11:26:16  <Eddi|zuHause> if an inexperienced player opens a window, which is overloaded with complicated stuff, they turn around and walk away
11:26:40  <doug16k> one more item in the conditional order drop down drives them away??
11:26:49  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
11:26:59  <doug16k> seems like you drive away any contributions too
11:27:38  <Eddi|zuHause> to be fair, most "contribuitions" anywhere in the world work like that
11:27:44  <doug16k> one chat with one person determines the fate of any idea?
11:27:50  <Eddi|zuHause> no
11:28:23  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm trying to break open your mind and reconsider your idea in a broader scope. if you can't do that, your idea is already dead on the spot.
11:28:52  <doug16k> you already have it there where you choose the criteria. age, etc
11:29:10  <doug16k> how open should my mind be? propose some new special location?
11:29:55  <doug16k> how about "carries only" and a car type. then no argument about what is the most
11:31:18  <Eddi|zuHause> well, there's many levels of scope that you could view this from. in the easiest case: how would a person that is not you use this feature for something that is completely different from your use case
11:31:21  <doug16k> I thought "mostly" made it usable in more scenarios
11:32:08  <Eddi|zuHause> and the most complicated scope is: the order UI is already a horrible mess, let's restruture it completely to make more sense of it, and actually adding stuff without making it more overloaded
11:32:31  <doug16k> you can do this: add a shortcut that skips stuff that many car types don't want. put a shortcut that skips them. then, put a way for me to say skip that if you are the wrong type
11:34:10  <doug16k> if the player micros that rule set, then cars will not all go that way for nothing
11:34:27  <doug16k> and sharing is easier
11:34:44  <Eddi|zuHause> and somewhere inbetween is: how would a player that doesn't know what he wants to do see whether this thing that you want to add is what he wants to do
11:34:53  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] planetmaker commented on pull request #102: Fix #100: follow PEP440 when generating version
11:36:35  <doug16k> exploring the amazing stuff you could do with rules might be a fun part of the gameplay
11:36:47  <doug16k> what restrict it to only simplistic use?
11:37:12  <milek7> so, squirrel controlled orders? ;d
11:37:15  <doug16k> for me that wrong an xhci driver in my kernel
11:37:19  <doug16k> wrote
11:39:05  <Eddi|zuHause> so you want to write a feature for the intersection of "players of openttd" with "people who once wrote a kernel driver", and expect that number to be larger than 1?
11:39:14  <doug16k> the redstone of openttd
11:39:54  <Eddi|zuHause> we have that playerbase covered. they built a CPU using trains and signals
11:40:32  <Eddi|zuHause> just look up "load balancer" and "priority signals"
11:41:23  <Eddi|zuHause> ... and these people have an endless supply of "if only we added <X> we could do more complex stuff" type of suggestions
11:42:34  <Eddi|zuHause> there are already more suggestions than anyone could ever code, so naturally we will be looking for reasons to turn them down
11:43:32  <Eddi|zuHause> and even if someone manages to come along with actual code to support their idea, there's still loads of reasons to turn them down
11:44:14  <Eddi|zuHause> if you build a jenga tower of code, any wrong step could topple over the tower and ruin the game for everyone
11:45:45  <Eddi|zuHause> just remember that scene in the meaning of life, where the guy eats just a tiny thing on top of all the other things he ate
11:46:27  <Eddi|zuHause> that's what its like to program for a long standing project like this
11:47:41  *** doug16k has left #openttd
11:48:16  <Eddi|zuHause> (i think i won? :p)
11:48:24  <TrueBrain> is this winning?
11:48:35  <TrueBrain> (I have not read ANYTHING you guys wrote for the last hour or so; I am just trolling :D)
11:49:17  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think it's worth your time reading that :p
11:50:18  <Eddi|zuHause> TLDR: he requests a ridiculously niche feature, and then can't handle the fact that i'm telling him it has no chance of going in
11:51:07  <TrueBrain> that is not very polite :P
11:52:59  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] koala12345 opened issue #8096: commands redirected to other stations
11:53:59  <Eddi|zuHause> it would have been less polite if i had used those exact words, yes :p
11:55:52  <TrueBrain> :D
11:57:52  <Eddi|zuHause> i was poking his idea from various sides, and he basically failed every test on how robust his idea is for anything...
11:58:06  <Eddi|zuHause> and then i got more and more direct, and apparently that pissed him off
12:04:09  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on issue #8096: commands redirected to other stations
12:04:19  <milek7> he had a point though
12:04:21  <milek7> projects with more haphazard development are more fun :P
12:06:18  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] koala12345 commented on issue #8096: commands redirected to other stations
12:06:18  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] koala12345 closed issue #8096: commands redirected to other stations
12:12:49  <Eddi|zuHause> you need the right balance between conservatism (keep the project running) and experimentalism (add new features)
12:13:13  *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC
12:13:26  *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd
12:42:57  *** nielsm has joined #openttd
12:49:04  <TrueBrain> ugh .. so much time has gone into this already, and only now I notice that you cannot enable proxy-protocol for outgoing connections from Traefik
12:49:05  <TrueBrain> lame
12:53:59  <Eddi|zuHause> clearly you should write your own system
12:55:01  <TrueBrain> seriously, it turns out there is no software that does both TCP and UDP with proxy support on the backend connection
12:55:03  <TrueBrain> super annoying
12:55:59  <TrueBrain> well, proxy support v2, that is

Powered by YARRSTE version: svn-trunk