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Log for #openttd on 30th April 2020:
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00:27:15  <adikt> every time i tell one of my friends to play openttd i get laughed at
00:27:19  <adikt> they dont know a good time
00:37:50  <FLHerne> Get different friends :P
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05:57:34  <blathijs> TrueBrain: Good to know about the apt update in GH actions, I was just working on a workflow myself (partly based on the nml workflow), which also uses apt :-)
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07:35:04  <andythenorth> YO
07:37:01  <Samu> hi
07:44:12  <andythenorth> 'Olefins' or 'Alkenes'? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alkene
07:45:04  <andythenorth> I wanted to do both Ethlyene and Propylene cargos but they come from the same cracker plant, and go to the same polymer plant, so no point
07:45:11  <Wolf01> Hydrocarbon?
07:51:58  <andythenorth> I have about 30 hydrocarbon cargos :)
08:36:32  <_dp_> tech tree, anyone? https://i.imgur.com/lsBqA0h.png
08:36:39  <_dp_> not much of a tree but whatever :p
08:38:18  <andythenorth> _dp_ :o
08:38:31  <andythenorth> _dp_ !!! https://firs-test-1.s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/iron-horse/docs/html/tech_tree_table_red.html
08:40:35  <_dp_> andythenorth, ???
08:40:47  <andythenorth> go on, add specific support for my newgrf :D
08:40:49  <andythenorth> then I'll change it :P
08:41:20  <andythenorth> I would actually like an action0 property for tech level on vehicles
08:41:46  <andythenorth> then GS could use it
08:41:52  <_dp_> andythenorth, at this point I don't even know what goals to make for default engines and yours have like 10x more :p
08:42:06  <andythenorth> yeah :)
08:42:39  <andythenorth> I don't know enough about GS and the goals it can support :|
08:42:48  <andythenorth> I know about cargo goals from Busy Bee
08:43:39  <_dp_> well, it's not GS and I can probably support pretty much anything with a bit of coding xD
08:43:45  <andythenorth> many goal ideas: 'maintain outstanding rating in the town for 5 years to get a new engine'
08:44:10  <_dp_> yikes, rating
08:44:25  <andythenorth> divide the map into grid regions (or just use towns): 'transport at least 50% of available cargo in this region for 1 year'
08:45:09  <andythenorth> do we have vehicle utilisation, or average speed statistics? :P
08:45:18  <_dp_> andythenorth, ok, I take it back, you ideas are not just a bit of coding xDDD
08:45:23  <_dp_> *your
08:45:32  <andythenorth> or amount of infrastructure per cargo unit delivered / year?
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08:45:43  <andythenorth> there are lots of RL or game efficiency measures :)
08:45:53  <andythenorth> maybe they aren't lolz enough
08:45:59  <Wolf01> "Keep specific engine reliability over x%"?
08:46:08  <Wolf01> For n years
08:46:21  <andythenorth> oof that would be hard :D
08:46:33  <andythenorth> just seems town growth is a hammer
08:46:37  <andythenorth> so every goal looks like a nail
08:46:44  <_dp_> lol, just keep it in the depot :p
08:46:56  <Wolf01> *Running
08:46:57  <andythenorth> we basically only have town growth, so all goal games orient to that
08:47:01  <Wolf01> Also average speed
08:47:02  <Wolf01> :D
08:47:10  <andythenorth> but town growth is the most boring part of the game
08:47:20  <andythenorth> it's both easy and tedious, just yak-shaving
08:47:24  <Wolf01> Get your infra right
08:47:32  <andythenorth> 'pick town, add buses, repeat'
08:47:35  <andythenorth> town is now 100k
08:47:38  <_dp_> andythenorth, you clearly haven't played any decent citybuilder :p
08:47:54  <andythenorth> I turn town growth off in my games, it gets in the way
08:48:18  <Wolf01> _dp_: I would look at steam achievements for this genre of game
08:48:33  <Wolf01> Just to get some ideas
08:48:43  <andythenorth> I would like to connect town growth to delivered cargos, but that needs a patched client
08:48:46  <Wolf01> Next step, OTTD trading cards
08:49:34  <_dp_> Wolf01, don't even need to go that far since we already have this https://citymania.org/quests-list
08:50:10  <Wolf01> Not bad
08:50:11  <_dp_> problem is to craft a reasonable gameplay out of it
08:51:07  <Wolf01> Should not be an easter egg hunt
08:52:09  <_dp_> andythenorth, there are plenty of CB gamescrips
08:52:25  <_dp_> some are good enough, at least for singleplayer
09:10:54  <andythenorth> how do they manage delivered cargos?
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09:49:59  <Samu> looks like trAIns queue implementation includes the priority value (aka estimated cost) in the item itself, so the Insert function only needs 1 parameter
09:50:09  <Samu> just the item
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10:45:13  <Samu> finally managed to include trAIns priority queue working without crashing, let's just hope it's doing as intended now
10:46:25  <Samu> yay, it worked! however the results disappoint
10:46:38  <Samu> I expected the holy grail of queues
10:53:45  <Wolf01> What do you expect for a queue?
10:54:58  <Samu> low number of ticks needed
10:55:12  <LordAro> trAIns' pathfinder has never struck me as particularly fast
10:55:18  <LordAro> good, but not fast
10:55:56  <Samu> i mean, the results aren't as good as that of terron's
10:56:15  <Samu> nor that of railwai's
10:56:36  <Samu> 3713 ticks - trAIns
10:56:53  <Samu> 3634 - terron
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10:57:23  <Samu> and railwai's somewhere in the middle
10:59:50  <Samu> and it even involved some cahnges in the node
11:00:03  <Samu> i was not worth the trouble :(
11:05:31  <Samu> 3671 for railwai's
11:06:14  <Samu> nothing beats PR#8091 implementation though
11:06:21  <Samu> 3450
11:08:52  <Samu> 3482 for shipai's implementation, aka the Native Heap I uploaded 3 weeks ago
11:09:08  <Samu> which turns out to be memory hungry, almost like a virus
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14:24:03  <Samu> which one is faster ? 10 / 2 or 10 >> 1 ?
14:26:45  <LordAro> probably neither
14:28:03  <andythenorth> how many bitcoin has our client mined today?
14:37:40  <planetmaker> Samu, write the code so that it makes sense. If you do math, then use division. If you use bit arithmetics, use bit shift
14:37:54  <planetmaker> pre-mature optimization is the root of much evil :)
14:38:10  <planetmaker> and compilers are reasonably intelligent meanwhile
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14:40:15  <nielsm> and if you're writing Squirrel then the difference between operators will likely be dwarfed by the interpreter
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15:00:26  <Samu> ^_^
15:04:20  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] giordy commented on issue #8038: Fullscreen mode in MacOSX is almost unusable https://git.io/Jv1n7
15:10:32  <Eddi|zuHause> we should maybe add a squirrel JIT compiler? :p
15:10:52  <LordAro> someone would have to write one first
15:11:18  <Eddi|zuHause> how hard could it be :p
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15:11:50  <milek7> transpile to javascript first ;P
15:17:07  <Samu> why is that the fastest implementations always results in the most cpu intensive ones
15:17:24  <andythenorth> physics
15:18:39  <Samu> I got 3 results: 3646, 3631 and 3622
15:19:18  <Samu> 3622 costs cpu :(
15:20:10  <Samu> 3631 is terrons
15:20:26  <Samu> 3646 is the same as the 3622 but using a single list
15:20:32  <Samu> 3622 uses 2 lists
15:21:20  <milek7> you didn't post units, but sounds like meaningless difference
15:21:40  <Samu> I did managed to shrink railwai's 3671 to 3646 ticks!
15:21:46  <Samu> unit is ticks
15:23:10  <Samu> i think im gonna switch to terron's priority queue
15:23:27  <Samu> it kind of "cheats" for ties
15:24:35  <Samu> items with the same priority as others already in the list are inserted in a random spot, not at beginning of the tie or end of the tie
15:24:54  <Samu> that makes it win
15:44:40  <Eddi|zuHause> so samu has now switches from pointless micro-optimisations to potentially dangerous semantics changes, just for the sake of a few ticks?
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16:15:11  <andythenorth> this is how people learn
16:15:16  <andythenorth> or fail to learn
16:15:31  <andythenorth> or learn, but refuse to pay attention to what they've learnt, for lolz
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16:19:40  <luaduck> really stoopid question, but does PACKET_UDP_SERVER_DETAIL_INFO properly return a list of clients inside companies?
16:19:51  <luaduck> writing a packet parser and I always end up with an empty string
16:22:08  <luaduck> hm, reading the source, it appears it doesn't
16:22:24  <luaduck> interestingly everyone's implementations that I've seen of it read a string after the stations count
16:22:30  <luaduck> https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/blob/2b1a7ceb4ee64292526ba4883f9cef9061992ba1/src/network/network_server.cpp#L1492
16:24:17  <luaduck> eg https://github.com/sonicsnes/node-gamedig/blob/master/protocols/openttd.js#L81
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16:35:10  <TrueBrain> guess they never have an AI active :P
16:36:03  <andythenorth> TrueBrain !
16:36:14  <TrueBrain> andythenorth !
16:36:18  <andythenorth> hi :)
16:36:20  <andythenorth> the lolz are back
16:36:36  <TrueBrain> the jack is back
16:41:25  <andythenorth> mail delivery is back
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16:57:29  <andythenorth> so can I start randomly closing tickets to see if anyone misses them?
16:57:35  <andythenorth> chaos-ticket-monkey
17:00:44  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not sure if i agree with that strategy
17:01:01  <andythenorth> it would come with a promise to re-open them
17:01:20  <andythenorth> but there would be too much spam
17:01:23  <andythenorth> it would ruin our logs
17:19:52  <andythenorth> ok brains, image CDNs: cloudinary.com or imgix.com?
17:20:08  <andythenorth> or imagekit.io
17:24:52  <Eddi|zuHause> never heard of either of those
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17:56:50  <andythenorth> what kind of web design community channel is this anyway?
17:56:54  <andythenorth> not a good one
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17:58:41  <iSoSyS> @luaduck, PACKET_UDP_SERVER_DETAIL_INFO does not have clients' name. But there is a very similar packet, albeit tcp, PACKET_SERVER_COMPANY_INFO, that has it right after is_ai https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/blob/2b1a7ceb4ee64292526ba4883f9cef9061992ba1/src/network/network_server.cpp#L389
17:58:59  <luaduck> iSoSyS: yeah, found that one, thanks!
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17:59:33  <luaduck> unfortunately I'm writing something that doesn't auth as a client, so I'm stuck with UDP
17:59:42  <luaduck> sending PACKET_SERVER_COMPANY_INFO requires auth afaik?
18:00:07  <luaduck> (my fix to this is going to be to use adminport)
18:03:15  <Wolf01> I'm still checking my work... enough work is enough, I need to forget it until monday
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19:00:01  <iSoSyS> @luaduck, I just tested and it seems it does not needs any auth step. It just requires a tcp connection.
19:00:09  <luaduck> hm, interesting
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19:44:21  <TrueBrain> so, current stats .. top 5 BaNaNaS entries .. 1) 120GB traffic, 2) 97GB, 3) 7GB, 4) 3GB, 5) 2GB
19:44:30  <TrueBrain> :D
19:45:13  <andythenorth> oof
19:45:28  <andythenorth> first to 1TB wins?
19:45:34  <TrueBrain> :D
19:46:28  <TrueBrain> bananas-server still crashes a few times a day .. still OOM :P I know what it is, but I have to debug it to see how to avoid it
19:46:56  <frosch123> sadly they are probably first-time downloads
19:47:19  <frosch123> otherwise i would have suggested to add librsync for the uncompressed data to ottd
19:50:15  <TrueBrain> @calc 2600000/60 * 2 / 1024 / 1024
19:50:15  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: 0.0826517740885
19:50:18  <TrueBrain> lolz
19:50:24  <TrueBrain> @calc 2600000/60 * 2 / 1024
19:50:25  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: 84.6354166667
19:50:33  <TrueBrain> 84 kbit/s of traffic over TCP :P
19:50:52  <andythenorth> ho someone has turned the FIRS Dredging Site into HO model https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BNIB-OO-HO-GAUGE-KIBRI-39156-WORKING-DREDGE-PONTOON-WITH-EXCAVATOR-KIT/202979397230?epid=1962090719&hash=item2f4283ce6e:g:joAAAOSwEw9dcTs1
19:51:00  <andythenorth> dedicated fan obviously
19:51:04  <andythenorth> do I get royalties?
19:59:21  <TrueBrain> still surprised there are no complaints about the new BaNaNaS :P
19:59:25  <TrueBrain> also no compliments, but .. I take it :)
19:59:58  <frosch123> looks like abase and zbase only differ in 50 sprites
20:01:54  <TrueBrain> lolz
20:02:49  <frosch123> you could save half the bandwidth, if you could put them into the same zip. if just ottd supported that :)
20:03:39  <TrueBrain> well, cache-rate is a lot higher than I expected
20:03:53  <TrueBrain> then? Lol
20:04:02  <TrueBrain> we are more focused in a single region .. most really is EU
20:04:05  <TrueBrain> which is a good thing
20:04:40  <Eddi|zuHause> than is correct usage
20:05:03  <TrueBrain> owh, sorry, internal joke :P You get these lovely clases that tell you that it is 'then' when there is an order
20:05:14  <TrueBrain> so my mind went: first I was not expected it ... then I was
20:05:34  <TrueBrain> I love how silly the English language is, and how alien for outsiders :P
20:05:50  <frosch123> then/than is mostly a dutch people issue
20:05:58  <TrueBrain> yes; we just have 1 word for it
20:05:58  <TrueBrain> easy
20:06:01  <TrueBrain> as nobody really cares :P
20:06:17  <TrueBrain> well, no, we have 2, but they are not the same .. what-ever
20:06:20  <TrueBrain> Dutch sucks too :P
20:07:04  <TrueBrain> anyway, the one region thing helps, as if CloudFlare allows us to be hosted by them for this, it means their cache-hit-rate will also be high
20:07:13  <TrueBrain> which means a lot less traffic in AWS :D
20:07:56  <TrueBrain> and given CloudFlare is one of those companies were there are still humans at work, I give it good odds they help us out :)
20:30:09  <TrueBrain> @calc 2500 * 24
20:30:09  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: 60000
20:31:08  <TrueBrain> @calc 240000 / 6000
20:31:08  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: 40
20:31:17  <TrueBrain> euh..yeah, typing is hard
20:31:17  <TrueBrain> lol
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20:36:25  <frosch123> the most surprising thing to me is how many people already have a gh account
20:36:46  <frosch123> i guess that's part of why noone complains, they enjoy having less accounts
20:38:34  <frosch123> i would be less suprised if their content were ais etc. but also scenario/heighmaps people are already on gh
20:48:17  <TrueBrain> k, sent CloudFlare a pretty-please letter
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21:21:55  <Samu> Awesome content by SamuXarick
21:22:07  <Samu> was Awesome on purpose?
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21:28:08  <Samu> there's no more statistics about number of downloads?
21:29:16  <Samu> meh, it doesn't matter much, maybe it's better this way
21:30:10  <Samu> I should prepare to release the canal pathfinder, and stop these optimizing tests
21:30:17  <Samu> starting tomorrow
21:30:33  <Samu> cyas, take care
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21:47:52  <andythenorth> should I join reddit?
21:49:39  <frosch123> it's like suggestions forum
21:49:49  <frosch123> some thing are asked every 5 days
21:49:59  <andythenorth> I am just disturbed that server 3 has FIRS 1.4.5 on it :P
21:50:06  <andythenorth> they could...stop that
21:50:34  <frosch123> that version did not yet have economies?
21:52:07  <andythenorth> I think it has a weird supplies mechanic too
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22:13:45  <andythenorth> is it bed time?
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