Config
Log for #openttd on 9th May 2020:
Times are UTC Toggle Colours
00:00:12  <glx> hmm but I don't think this one is called
00:02:16  <glx> XXXtype_list() functions in action0properties.py
00:03:34  <glx> only checks it's an array of litterals, but doesn't check the length of the litterals
00:06:58  <FLHerne> Yuck, more copy-pasting
00:07:07  <glx> yeah noticed
00:09:32  <FLHerne> Also, I don't see why it shouldn't take identifiers, like railtypetable?
00:09:36  <FLHerne> (optionally)
00:11:54  <glx> they're just label lists
00:12:18  <glx> without any validation because these labels could be defined by other grfs
00:14:28  <FLHerne> That's equally true of railtypetable entries, no?
00:14:37  <FLHerne> It's just a list of 4-character labels
00:14:41  <glx> yes
00:15:10  <glx> it's just nobody ever though to check the length :)
00:15:32  <glx> and factorise the 3 things
00:16:23  <FLHerne> I wrote a patch that factorized most of the other 3 things
00:16:26  <FLHerne> Missed this one
00:16:32  * FLHerne tries to fix
00:16:37  <FLHerne> Unless you've started
00:16:50  <glx> no I'm just reading the code :)
00:17:12  <FLHerne> Seriously, the entire implementation of NRT was this copy-pasted-in-triplicate nonsense
00:17:14  <glx> but the 3 ListProp are exaclty the same
00:52:32  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne opened pull request #132: Cleanup: Tidy tracktype properties and check label length https://git.io/JfCqU
01:56:14  *** spnda has quit IRC
02:13:24  *** D-HUND has joined #openttd
02:16:41  *** debdog has quit IRC
02:16:55  *** Tirili has joined #openttd
02:22:56  *** Flygon has joined #openttd
03:13:37  *** glx has quit IRC
03:32:24  *** Tirili has quit IRC
04:38:57  *** Laedek_ has quit IRC
05:02:44  *** snail_UES_ has quit IRC
05:21:18  *** namad7 has joined #openttd
05:27:12  *** namad7 has quit IRC
06:19:11  *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
06:19:16  <andythenorth> o/
06:52:22  *** Progman has joined #openttd
07:24:32  *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd
07:25:15  *** Wolf01 has joined #openttd
07:27:11  *** iSoSyS has joined #openttd
07:41:57  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] LordAro commented on pull request #125: Codechange: Build examples in regression testing https://git.io/JfC02
07:43:10  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] LordAro commented on pull request #131: Add: [Actions] Include pypy3 on Ubuntu for regression tests. https://git.io/JfC0K
07:44:36  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] LordAro approved pull request #123: Doc: Add a use of `roadtype()` to the examples. https://git.io/JfC0M
07:45:45  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #8124: Fix #8119, f538179: Update docking tile area when placing a diagonal rail next to a dock end https://git.io/JfC0y
07:47:36  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro closed issue #8116: Old patchpack savegame versions will soon overlap https://git.io/JfZsT
07:47:36  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #8116: Old patchpack savegame versions will soon overlap https://git.io/JfZsT
07:49:43  *** supermop_Home has quit IRC
07:54:41  *** iSoSyS has quit IRC
08:05:08  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne merged pull request #123: Doc: Add a use of `roadtype()` to the examples. https://git.io/Jfc2O
08:08:27  <FLHerne> LordAro: That's from copying the equivalent command for the current regression tests, which is also -u
08:08:29  *** cHawk has joined #openttd
08:09:19  <FLHerne> As you say, I can't imagine a good reason for it though
08:16:40  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne updated pull request #131: Add: [Actions] Include pypy3 on Ubuntu for regression tests. https://git.io/JfcjU
08:28:38  <FLHerne> LordAro: It actually makes zero difference, since it just prints "Binary files * and * differ" anyway
08:30:04  *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC
08:30:17  *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd
08:33:55  *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC
08:34:08  *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd
08:47:36  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne updated pull request #125: Codechange: Build examples in regression testing https://git.io/JfcXX
08:49:27  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] LordAro approved pull request #131: Add: [Actions] Include pypy3 on Ubuntu for regression tests. https://git.io/JfCzp
08:49:34  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] LordAro merged pull request #131: Add: [Actions] Include pypy3 on Ubuntu for regression tests. https://git.io/JfcjU
08:56:16  <Wolf01> andythenorth: new trucks https://9gag.com/gag/abG5PKL
08:56:58  <andythenorth> haha
08:57:23  <Wolf01> https://img-comment-fun.9cache.com/media/a5Z1rpV/apr5Q39R_700w_0.jpg it seem to be for this reason
08:57:40  <andythenorth> looks suicide, probably fine
09:04:56  *** iSoSyS has joined #openttd
09:05:32  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl commented on issue #8116: Old patchpack savegame versions will soon overlap https://git.io/JfZsT
09:07:33  *** matt21347 has joined #openttd
09:13:59  <_dp_> https://www.lmwindpower.com/-/media/images/stories-and-articles/h-88-transport-2.jpg
09:20:39  <nielsm> definitely an oversized transport
09:25:27  <_dp_> I wonder how much will it glitch if done in openttd
09:26:37  <LordAro> "a lot"
09:27:43  <_dp_> overglitchy load xD
09:28:06  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #8124: Fix #8119, f538179: Update docking tile area when placing a diagonal rail next to a dock end https://git.io/Jfcyk
09:28:26  *** Samu has joined #openttd
09:31:26  <Samu> hi
11:15:00  *** Laedek has joined #openttd
11:21:53  <FLHerne> nielsm: Do you remember what the general intention of the industry example was meant to be? Some sort of stockpiling mechanic?
11:23:30  <nielsm> I don't think there was any functional purpose of it other than showing valid syntax
11:23:43  <nielsm> the example in the wiki documentation is more complete
11:40:46  *** plstc has quit IRC
11:42:16  *** plstc has joined #openttd
11:51:41  <andythenorth> I was considering maybe 4 example industries
11:51:52  <andythenorth> primary, secondary, town black hole, water based
11:52:03  <andythenorth> I'm having a few days off writing any code though :)
11:52:07  <andythenorth> so feel free to ignore me
12:02:26  <FLHerne> I don't think I'll try writing an example, I don't know how to do it :P
12:04:49  <Samu> i rebased and it seems to have failed
12:04:59  <Samu> https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/8124#issuecomment-626123647
12:05:04  <Samu> LordAro,
12:06:40  <Samu> https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/8124/checks?check_run_id=658719384 it succeeded but still says Some checks haven’t completed yet
12:07:38  <LordAro> weird.
12:08:29  <LordAro> must be a github/azure thing
12:08:33  <LordAro> can't imagine what else it would be
12:12:46  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Mysteron347 opened issue #8126: Stations being visited against instructions. https://git.io/JfCiO
12:13:49  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro opened pull request #8127: Add: [AzurePipelines] Ubuntu Focal (20.04) build for releases https://git.io/JfCiG
12:15:46  *** glx has joined #openttd
12:15:46  *** ChanServ sets mode: +v glx
12:16:30  <LordAro> trains have always stopped at stations they pass through, unless a non-stop order is explicitly specified, right?
12:16:52  <glx> yeah I think
12:16:54  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #8126: Stations being visited against instructions. https://git.io/JfCiO
12:16:55  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh closed issue #8126: Stations being visited against instructions. https://git.io/JfCiO
12:17:00  <LordAro> yes :)
12:17:05  <glx> implicit orders
12:20:29  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain requested changes for pull request #8127: Add: [AzurePipelines] Ubuntu Focal (20.04) build for releases https://git.io/JfCiB
12:20:38  <nielsm> also the network construction in that save is really weird and it will give the player countless headaches
12:20:46  <TrueBrain> silly LordAro :)
12:21:53  <FLHerne> I do find it weird that implicit orders are the default
12:22:11  <FLHerne> Very few people intentionally use them, and they cause a lot of confusion
12:22:48  <FLHerne> (tbh, I find it weird that implicit orders /exist/, what problem do they solve?)
12:23:04  <FLHerne> Except for the SRNW people
12:23:25  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne opened pull request #133: Doc: Remove broken code from industry example. https://git.io/JfCi2
12:23:49  <glx> hehe reminds me of #7811
12:24:11  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] TrueBrain commented on pull request #115: Fix #112: use setuptools_scm to determine version https://git.io/JfCiV
12:26:48  <FLHerne> glx: Looking at ^, I don't really see what setuptools_scm helps with :-/
12:27:33  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #8127: Add: [AzurePipelines] Ubuntu Focal (20.04) build for releases https://git.io/JfCiM
12:27:46  <FLHerne> I guess it saves having our own git-version code, but that's already written
12:28:10  <TrueBrain> LordAro: last time you did it right :D Seems you are getting old my friend :)
12:29:50  <LordAro> :<
12:30:06  <LordAro> i did pass 1/4 century a few days ago
12:30:17  <TrueBrain> gratz :)
12:30:48  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] glx22 commented on pull request #133: Doc: Remove broken code from industry example. https://git.io/JfCi5
12:30:57  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/CompileFarm] LordAro opened pull request #43: Add: Ubuntu focal image https://git.io/JfCid
12:32:32  <TrueBrain> good luck with these new errors :D
12:32:40  <TrueBrain> cannot utime .. really .. wth
12:33:00  <LordAro> oh heavens
12:38:12  *** plastic has joined #openttd
12:38:57  <andythenorth> 1/4 century is so far in my past :(
12:38:59  <andythenorth> oof
12:40:32  <TrueBrain> I did not want to highlight that part andythenorth ; we are just silently letting that slip ;)
12:40:34  *** frosch123 has joined #openttd
12:43:29  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] glx22 approved pull request #132: Cleanup: Tidy tracktype properties and check label length https://git.io/JfCP9
12:45:28  <LordAro> TrueBrain: something to do with parent directory ownership, i think?
12:45:38  <TrueBrain> I really and honestly don't know
12:45:42  <TrueBrain> never seen that error
12:45:46  *** plstc has quit IRC
12:46:04  <glx> it's really weird, maybe an hardware issue
12:46:04  <LordAro> https://superuser.com/questions/1219214/permissions-cannot-be-restored-for-a-tar only thing i can find
12:46:31  *** Yexo has joined #openttd
12:46:31  *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Yexo
12:47:43  <LordAro> glx: it's suspicious that it only happened for the 32 bit focal image though
12:50:18  <glx> but I see no trace of libc in 64 bit log
12:50:36  <LordAro> well yes, because that would be already installed
12:50:46  <LordAro> this is it trying to install libc:i386 on a 64bit system
12:51:01  <LordAro> https://hub.docker.com/layers/ubuntu/library/ubuntu/focal/images/sha256-5747316366b8cc9e3021cd7286f42b2d6d81e3d743e2ab571f55bcd5df788cc8 no sign of 386 architecture here, though i think i'm looking in the wrong place
12:51:13  <glx> is there a 32 bit focal ?
12:51:48  <LordAro> i thought there was...
12:51:56  <LordAro> perhaps not
12:52:45  <LordAro> error message is weird, anyway
12:52:56  <glx> https://packages.ubuntu.com/fr/focal/libc6-i386
12:53:01  <TrueBrain> maybe also drop i386 for focal? Sounds about time to do so ;)
12:53:14  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/CompileFarm] LordAro updated pull request #43: Add: Ubuntu focal image https://git.io/JfCid
12:53:26  <glx> it's an amd64 package
12:54:35  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro updated pull request #8127: Add: [AzurePipelines] Ubuntu Focal (20.04) build for releases https://git.io/JfCiG
12:54:36  <LordAro> glx: but it always has been
12:55:59  <TrueBrain> know that the docker URL for i386 and amd64 are widely different
12:56:12  <TrueBrain> I believe i386 is even not done by upstream maintainers, but by some random people :)
12:56:17  <TrueBrain> anyway, i386 is silly in 2020, tbfh
12:57:02  <LordAro> mm yes
12:58:43  <LordAro> "Maintained by: Canonical and Tianon (Debian Developer)"
12:58:46  <LordAro> well, not entirely random
13:01:05  <glx> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FocalFossa/ReleaseNotes says it "Upgrades on i386
13:01:05  <glx> 
13:01:05  <glx> Users of the i386 architecture will not be presented with an upgrade to Ubuntu 20.04 LTS. Support for i386 as a host architecture was dropped in 19.10. "
13:06:41  *** iSoSyS has quit IRC
13:37:38  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Mysteron347 opened issue #8128: Mexican Stand-off https://git.io/JfCyz
13:38:19  <FLHerne> Signalling mistake?
13:39:10  * FLHerne tries
13:39:22  <glx> haha python is so annoying, I had an issue with the install path containing non ascii, but python 3.7 generated temp path were generated using short names
13:39:58  <glx> I fixed the install path issue for python 3.8, but now it generates temp path with full name, so back to the non ascii path issue :)
13:41:07  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Mysteron347 commented on issue #8126: Stations being visited against instructions. https://git.io/JfCiO
13:45:33  <FLHerne> Hm, the behaviour in that save does seem a bit odd
13:46:01  <Yexo> Reversing the train makes a pbs reservation, which increases the cost for the other train enough so it goes around
13:46:33  <Yexo> Looks odd, but I don't think this is fixable in a general sense: any tweak to pathfinder costs will lead to the same situation with a slightly modified scenario
13:46:58  <Yexo> Don't trains automatically reverse at some point? Or am I misremembering that?
13:47:38  <FLHerne> There's a setting for it
13:47:40  <Yexo> Oh, "Automatic reversing at signals" is off by default
13:47:44  <Yexo> and also off in that savegame
13:47:55  <FLHerne> I'm sure this doesn't normally happen
13:48:18  <FLHerne> Even if I change the "passing loops" so they're almost the same length, they still wait
13:48:45  <Yexo> It's easily fixable by changing the signals: don't allow trains to wait at the entrance to the section with the passing loop
13:48:56  <FLHerne> *exactly* the same length (with offset ends) works
13:49:15  <FLHerne> And yes, it's not a very sensible design
13:49:32  <FLHerne> But it seems that the train in the loop has no pathfinder cost at all
13:49:47  <FLHerne> Or not enough to outweigh two tiles of empty plain track
13:50:03  <FLHerne> Which doesn't seem right
13:50:10  <Yexo> I don't think trains have a pathfinder cost, only the pbs-reserved rails have
13:50:23  <FLHerne> Hm, and because they're really short...?
13:50:40  <Yexo> And with sensible tracks you want that cost to be low, since if you assume the train is moving the track most likely clears before you get to it
13:50:48  <Yexo> Yes, the really short length makes this worse here
13:55:55  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne merged pull request #132: Cleanup: Tidy tracktype properties and check label length https://git.io/JfCqU
14:00:16  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] jrook1445 opened issue #134: nml 0.5.0 - PALETTE_CC_RED value in global_constants.py https://git.io/JfCSl
14:04:24  <LordAro> looks like c&p error
14:04:48  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne opened pull request #135: Fix #134: Incorrect value of PALETTE_CC_RED https://git.io/JfCSu
14:05:14  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nickpan commented on issue #7623: Support for macOS Catalina. https://git.io/fj2uh
14:05:31  <FLHerne> Yexo: It looks like no-one spotted that since you typed it 9 years ago :P
14:05:41  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] Yexo approved pull request #135: Fix #134: Incorrect value of PALETTE_CC_RED https://git.io/JfCSz
14:06:03  <Yexo> Exactly. Last change was already a fix for wrong values: https://github.com/OpenTTD/nml/commit/dcc837be5255beb7cecc43ff65a77b46136f8be9
14:06:46  <FLHerne> LordAro: What does the "testing" GH action actually do?
14:07:02  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne merged pull request #135: Fix #134: Incorrect value of PALETTE_CC_RED https://git.io/JfCSu
14:07:03  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne closed issue #134: nml 0.5.0 - PALETTE_CC_RED value in global_constants.py https://git.io/JfCSl
14:08:14  <LordAro> FLHerne: pretty sure it does something
14:08:17  <LordAro> can't remember what :p
14:08:32  <Yexo> Looks like a no-op on ubuntu/macOS. On windows it builds a standalone executable
14:08:38  <Yexo> If the logs are to be believed anyway
14:08:47  <LordAro> it does pylint & black checks after my reformatting PR is merged :p
14:08:47  <LordAro> ah yes
14:10:09  <FLHerne> LordAro: I see on Windows it does pyinstaller, but the other jobs seem like duplicates of eh Yexo typed this already
14:10:44  <LordAro> "Testing" isn't a great name
14:11:16  <FLHerne> If we want to get the bugfix time below 7 minutes, the tests need to run faster :P
14:11:27  <LordAro> :p
14:13:15  <LordAro> be a lot faster if we didn't have to install dependencies over and over
14:13:21  <LordAro> but that's how it be
14:15:16  <glx> well they are cached (when caching works)
14:17:20  <FLHerne>     'PALETTE_IDENTITY'                      : 775,
14:17:22  <FLHerne>     'PALETTE_CC_FIRST'                      : 775,
14:17:24  <FLHerne>     'PALETTE_CC_DARK_BLUE'                  : 775, # = first
14:17:25  <FLHerne>     'PALETTE_CC_PALE_GREEN'                 : 776,
14:17:26  <FLHerne> I'm confused
14:17:56  <FLHerne> That doesn't seem right, but there aren't enough other numbers to be a typo
14:17:58  <glx> that's ok
14:18:14  <FLHerne> Oh, wiki's the same there
14:18:31  <glx> 775 is dark blue and the first cc palette
14:20:03  <FLHerne> Ok, I see
14:29:52  <andythenorth> wtf? why do we require Aaux Pro Medium font?
14:30:17  *** iSoSyS has joined #openttd
14:31:59  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #8128: Mexican Stand-off https://git.io/JfCyz
14:32:16  <michi_cc> andythenorth: First font on the list that starts with a :p He said "missing A font".
14:32:33  <michi_cc> More like total bogus.
14:33:42  <andythenorth> is it just spam?
14:33:57  <andythenorth> seems like quite a detailed way to spam to advertise a font
14:34:21  <andythenorth> :P
14:41:45  *** matt21347 has quit IRC
15:19:09  <FLHerne> "Interestingly, if you use an industry set with stockpiles like BSPI, it will intelligently divide the cargo between the industries instead of wasting it all on one. I'm not sure how that works, but it does "
15:19:13  <FLHerne> *does* that work?
15:19:21  *** supermop_Home_ has joined #openttd
15:19:25  <FLHerne> andythenorth keeps complaining that it doesn't :P
15:20:05  <andythenorth> maybe it rapidly closes and opens the stockpile alternately?
15:20:55  <frosch123> i think there are two things to that
15:21:26  <frosch123> when one industry refuses cargo, the next one will get it (if there is a next one). that should always have been the case
15:21:52  <frosch123> afaik 1.10 changed for cargo is distributed, from everything to one, to a bit to everyone
15:22:31  <frosch123> but the latter is very "afaik", i don't know how it really works
15:22:43  <andythenorth> I missed that :)
15:23:08  <frosch123> anyway, the complaint about stockpiles was always when there is no "next one"
15:23:31  <frosch123> then cargo will stay in the train, and mess everything up
15:25:45  *** mcbanhas has joined #openttd
15:38:51  <supermop_Home_> ooh open gfx+ stations
15:40:22  *** iSoSyS has quit IRC
15:41:44  <Yexo> Am I missing anything or is this indeed an if masquerading as a while? https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/blob/master/src/script/api/script_log.cpp#L60
15:48:02  <nielsm> looks like it
15:53:59  <glx> finally found a way to workaround my encoding issue in python
16:09:45  <mcbanhas> https://wiki.openttd.org/Manual_of_style almost done with this, can I get some feedback?
16:10:16  <mcbanhas> I haven't fixed the images yet, but I will do so soon
16:19:20  <FLHerne> mcbanhas: Looks like you fixed most of the things I complained about before :-)
16:19:38  <FLHerne> Worth adding a 'correct' order for shortcuts?
16:20:03  <mcbanhas> What do you mean? Correct order?
16:20:22  <FLHerne> Empirically, that seems to be Ctrl+Click, then Shift+Click
16:20:49  <FLHerne> Maybe it's just obvious
16:21:18  <mcbanhas> Ah, that's not a bad idea
16:21:27  <FLHerne> Hm, I disagree with "When writing additional shorcuts, always use one sentence per function."
16:21:38  <_dp_> if (ofs.load != (enum OrderLoadFlags)-1)
16:21:42  <_dp_> tf is this sorcery?
16:21:53  <FLHerne> "Ctrl+Click+Drag selects an area, and Shift+Click shows price preview." is more readable than the two-sentence version IMO
16:22:59  <Yexo> _dp_: where did you find that?
16:23:21  <mcbanhas> I'm trying really hard to avoid coordinating conjunctions when it's technical stuff like shortcuts.
16:23:21  <_dp_> Yexo, order hotkeys patch
16:23:37  <nielsm> "Should a descriptive text refer to a list or a category of items of which one requires a numeral, write the remainder in numerals as well, even if they are below ten ("There are 15 trains, followed by 5 trains, followed by 1 train") "  <-- thank you for adding this, it's one of my pet peeves :)
16:23:41  <frosch123> mcbanhas: about tooltips, we have a rule to join them with "+". good: Ctrl+Click, bad: Ctrl-Click
16:23:59  <nielsm> writing "between five and 12" just looks terrible
16:24:27  <frosch123> mcbanhas: also, i am not sure whether your page is consistent about ending sentences with ".". Our style is to never put a "." at the end of the whole text
16:24:41  <_dp_> Yexo, I don't even know how to google what that does %)
16:24:46  <FLHerne> frosch123: Ah, we had this the other day
16:24:56  <mcbanhas> Ahah, no problem. I'm just future-proofing here.
16:25:29  <Yexo> _dp_: without knowing the context of that line: an enum is just an integer. It's casting -1 to enum OrderLoadFlags and comparing that with the OrderLoadFlags stored in ofs.load
16:25:38  <nielsm> mcbanhas: That part about numerals, would it make sense to rephrase as "when a text refers to multiple numbers that relate to each other, always use numerals for all numbers"?
16:25:39  <FLHerne> I'm very certain "our style" is wrong, and if there are going to be written rules they might as well be sane ones :P
16:25:54  <mcbanhas> frosch123, what FLHerne said. I initially had a rule to never have a period on the last sentence of a tooltip, but people seemed to prefer it with a period.
16:26:09  <mcbanhas> By people I mean FLHerne and LordAro which are both natives. :p
16:26:25  <_dp_> Yexo, oooh right, I didn't notice that's an explicit cast
16:26:32  <frosch123> mcbanhas: i doubt anyone will accept changing 90% of strings in ottd :)
16:26:39  <frosch123> so you have to stick to the existing style
16:26:47  <nielsm> the original transport tycoon (not deluxe) printed manual had a peculiar way of always writing the word "window" when referring to the UI element in quotation marks
16:26:59  <FLHerne> frosch123: Did you miss the PR changing, like, 90% of strings in OTTD?
16:27:05  <nielsm> I wonder if I still have it somewhere...
16:27:07  <FLHerne> (exaggerating, probably)
16:27:33  <mcbanhas> frosch123, changing most of the tooltips is why I wrote this guide.
16:27:58  <mcbanhas> So people can have a tool for reviewing and have the rules explicitly written.
16:28:51  <mcbanhas> nielsm, give me a moment, I'll look into it. :)
16:28:52  <FLHerne> frosch123: So far, most people's opinion seems to be "well, okay, that sounds good in principle" ;-)
16:29:11  <FLHerne> I imagine the translators to other languages might find it annoying?
16:29:40  <frosch123> FLHerne: i would argue for: if there was a style decided in the past, keep it. if there is no consistent style, pick one
16:30:09  <mcbanhas> FLHerne, that will be a problem, but if the translation is based on a messed up original text, then it won't be a good translation eiher.
16:30:17  <mcbanhas> In fact that's why I started this whole thing.
16:30:27  <mcbanhas> I wanted to retranslate OTTD to Portuguese.
16:30:50  <mcbanhas> But I found so many issues with the original that I thought it might be best to fix English beforehand.
16:34:22  <mcbanhas> This is just the first version of the document for the sake of passing the PR. There's still more stuff that needs to be added. I did not include a section for Punctuation & Spacing because I did not find it essential yet.
16:35:16  <mcbanhas> And if you have any additional ideas for expansion, I can add them in too.
16:35:52  <nielsm> some specific glossary might be a good addition along the way
16:36:29  <nielsm> (the web translator could also use a way of offering glossary for the target language to make it easier to stay consistent)
16:37:24  <mcbanhas> Yeah a glossary would be something for the future, definitely, very useful tool for translators.
16:37:43  *** andythenorth has quit IRC
16:39:34  *** Flygon has quit IRC
16:43:17  <mcbanhas> In case you guys approve of this, how can I edit the orange side pan to include this on the list of development documentation?
16:45:21  <Yexo> https://wiki.openttd.org/?title=Template:DevDoc&action=edit
16:45:28  *** gnu_jj has quit IRC
16:45:40  <mcbanhas> Thanks!
16:45:42  *** gnu_jj has joined #openttd
16:58:20  <_dp_> hm, got desync by randomly adding orders to a single vehicle (I'm client 20)...   https://pastebin.com/KGwPYWLJ
16:58:29  <_dp_> can't reproduce :(
17:21:24  <Samu> are there ships, docks or so in the map?
17:22:13  <Yexo> Is that in a non-patched version?
17:23:26  <Samu> how does this cache checking works? https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/commit/86e9326b7f9a0f74e5e8b271289685a1d5deeaf2
17:24:50  *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
17:25:37  <Yexo> 1. It creates a copy of all tiles in st->docking_station. 2. It empties st->docking_staion (done in UpdateStationDockingTiles). 3. It adds all tiles that belong in st->docking_station (again in UpdateStationDockingTiles). 4. It compares the backup to the new version, they're supposed to be equal
17:26:24  <Yexo> If there is a difference, the original st->docking_station was wrong. Most likely an update to it was forgotten somewhere
17:26:55  <Samu> it doesn't require a server and a client?
17:27:04  <Yexo> Nope
17:31:42  <Samu> I'm trying to remember of a fix related to client renaming...
17:31:51  <Samu> closing the building tools
17:32:21  <Samu> wondering if that could be related to desync
17:36:14  <Yexo> _dp_: where you the only one that got desynced?
17:36:24  <_dp_> Yexo, yes
17:37:03  <_dp_> though later someone desynced with similar log
17:37:41  <Yexo> Can you upload that as well?
17:37:53  <Yexo> No guarantees that it'll help, I'm simply trying to spot patterns at this opint
17:38:21  <_dp_> Yexo, client 40 https://pastebin.com/WZJTSdUD
17:38:26  <Yexo> Thanks
17:39:25  <_dp_> he did a lot of stuff with vehicles though so could be a known desync
17:39:44  <Samu> Company 18 is a game script
17:39:51  <Samu> you have a GS running
17:41:12  <_dp_> Samu, where did you find it? I filtered out GS command spammage
17:41:17  <Yexo> Are there known desyncs (apart from the ship-based one that'll desync immediately after joining)?
17:41:33  <Yexo> _dp_: 2nd line
17:41:41  <Samu> SET_GOAL_TEXT
17:41:46  <Samu> ID 18
17:41:49  <Yexo> Also in your first pastebin: 789203  9   1   GOAL_QUESTION_ANSWER (88)   32850   1   0
17:42:15  <Samu> I remember a fix regarding goals
17:42:19  <Yexo> Can you upload the unfiltered ones as well?
17:43:09  <_dp_> Yexo, known vehicle desync https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/8103
17:43:28  <Yexo> Thanks
17:43:51  <Samu> ah, it was _dp_ who created it
17:43:56  <Samu> https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/commit/f14a69e52f77b442e8615f102f5152cb0ef0d2ed
17:44:16  <glx> _dp_: still on 1.10.1 ?
17:44:43  <_dp_> Yexo, unfiltered first one looks like that https://pastebin.com/GgqErbz1
17:45:40  <_dp_> glx, what else?
17:45:51  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master https://git.io/JfCNm
17:45:51  <DorpsGek_III>   - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
17:46:05  <_dp_> not going to run master on a public server xD
17:46:28  <glx> yeah, but could be an already fixed desync
17:47:05  <Yexo> Time for 1.10.2 so we can be sure any new desyncs are not the known ones?
17:47:11  <_dp_> glx, second one yes, but first one doesn't match afaict
17:47:27  <Samu> my PR needs merging first
17:47:41  <glx> yeah second one is a good candidate for the refit desync
17:47:43  <Samu> or tested first, then merged or however u do it
17:47:44  <_dp_> yeah, I guess 1.10.2 will help a bit
17:47:52  <_dp_> can always do 1.10.3 later xD
17:48:24  <glx> just playing in the build vehicle gui without even building one can trigger it
17:50:35  <frosch123> mcbanhas: FLHerne: https://gist.github.com/frosch123/401146e4146b35aa416481649b8008e0 <- those are the string-consistency fixes from the past
17:51:56  <Yexo> _dp_: I'm assuming that the log is from the server. Do you have a log from your own client to compare against that as well by chance?
17:52:16  <_dp_> glx, how? by changing cargo type filter? don't think I did that
17:52:28  <_dp_> Yexo, no, unfortunately not
17:56:30  *** tokai|noir has joined #openttd
17:56:30  *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai|noir
18:03:19  *** tokai has quit IRC
18:05:27  <_dp_> btw, just noticed you can estimate cost of dragging orders
18:13:28  <_dp_> these non-standard types are driving me crazy, why not just typedef it all to std::(u)int*_t ??
18:15:00  <nielsm> visual c++ 2005 didn't have stdint.h and that was an important target at one point
18:15:06  <nielsm> I don'
18:15:16  <nielsm> I don't remember if it was added in 2008 or only 2010
18:16:33  <_dp_> at least define them differently for those exceptions only
18:16:42  <_dp_> just to be sure that most platforms have it the same
18:16:57  <milek7> it won't compile on ancient toolchains anyway
18:17:33  <_dp_> coz when I see enum typed as byte I grep byte, find it as usigned char and google for 30 mins what size it can have %)
18:17:52  <Yexo> That might all be true now, but wasn't when a lot of code was written. It's easy enough to say "it doesn't need to be that way anymore", but another to go and update all the existing code
18:17:59  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] kkkozlov opened issue #8129: OpenTTD is crashed after hours of playing https://git.io/JfCAR
18:18:25  <_dp_> Yexo, I know, but there already was a big shift to c++11
18:19:36  <_dp_> also it doesn't have to a huge update, just changing stdafx.h will do a lot
18:21:18  <_dp_> Yexo, do you have a mac by any chance btw?
18:21:29  <Yexo> No
18:21:50  <_dp_> macs seem to be much more consistent at getting desynced for some reason
18:23:13  <Yexo> Compared to windows or also to linux?
18:24:05  <_dp_> If we're talking about that instant desync it's so far only known to happen on mac and win7
18:24:14  <_dp_> I can't get linux to desync no matter what I try
18:33:16  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Yexo approved pull request #8124: Fix #8119, f538179: Update docking tile area when placing a diagonal rail next to a dock end https://git.io/JfCAF
18:33:52  <nielsm> https://www.jernbanen.dk/forum/index.php?id=153927   (derelict) DMU tipped on its side, quite unusual sight
18:41:32  <Samu> wow, elitegameservers are really slow
18:41:44  <Samu> joined one of the advertisements game
18:43:44  <Samu> just desynced it
18:43:53  <_dp_> lol
18:44:12  <Samu> used the ship track thing
18:44:17  <Samu> docking tile
18:45:04  <Yexo> Please don't do that on purpose on multiplayer servers
18:45:22  <_dp_> those are basically scammers
18:45:36  *** Eddi|zuHause has quit IRC
18:45:38  <Samu> their game runs at 0.75x speed
18:45:46  <Samu> and it's an advertising game
18:45:49  <Samu> funny
18:45:54  <_dp_> spamming server list with adv for payed servers that don't even work properly
18:46:11  <Yexo> So propose a policy against advertising in the server list, so we can ban them from there (after sufficient warning)
18:48:14  <nielsm> "Businesses offering game server services are not allowed to publish servers that act as advertisements in the public server list. This covers both server name as well as in-game advertisements. Servers breaking this policy may be blacklisted from the public server list service."
18:48:16  *** iSoSyS has joined #openttd
18:48:17  <nielsm> something like that?
18:48:39  <Samu> well, there are 15 companies in them
18:49:47  <Yexo> Soemthing like that, yes. But why ban in-game advertisements as well? Are there any problematic examples of those?
18:50:28  <nielsm> not sure really... mainly just to cover servers that spam the console with "go buy our services" constantly
18:50:36  <Yexo> And as an alternative: engage with them, if they actually want to offer this as a proper service, maybe they're willing to donate X per server in exchange for listing them on openttd.org. Can help with our hosting/other costs that way
18:51:19  <Yexo> And I'd drop the "game server" from the first sentence. All advertising there is most likely problematic
18:51:20  <nielsm> as _dp_ says, they seem to be running on shoestring
18:51:58  <nielsm> or at least not want to spend budget on actual service quality
18:52:09  <_dp_> idk if there is any good policy to establish here tbh
18:52:18  <Yexo> Maybe, or maybe they only did a quick test, saw the game was running and left it at that
18:52:43  <Yexo> I'm totally fine with banning such behavior, but if we want that we should do it properly, not "break" their servers via known bugs
18:52:58  <_dp_> it's all good when we only have one service like that, but what if, say, citymania starts offering servers can we not continue to run public ones?
18:53:20  <_dp_> not that I plan on doing that any time soon
18:54:47  <Yexo> Could allow advertisements as long as the server itself is playable to cover that
18:55:02  <_dp_> every server is playable.. kinda :p
18:56:12  <nielsm> take the right to delist servers that repeatedly exhibit unacceptable performance for normal play, i.e. are underdimensioned for the game settings
18:57:03  <_dp_> make servers report tick rate and delist the slow ones xD
18:57:33  <Yexo> List tickrate (in a more userfriendly way) in the server list
18:57:46  <Yexo> Let's users see quickly if a server is fast enough to play
18:57:48  <_dp_> but that doesn't rly matter, even if they were perfectly fine servers it's still annoying to have that spam
19:00:04  <Yexo> Allow url, but not direct advertising like "get your server". I think that should solve the citymania example as well
19:06:50  <_dp_> Yexo, yeah, that's better but then is it fine to spam, say, 10 servers with url that just offers paid servers? what about 100?
19:07:21  <mcbanhas> frosch123,  I'll keep these in mind. Thanks.
19:08:37  <_dp_> Yexo, what I'm trying to say it may be better to just deside on case by case basis than changing policy every time :)
19:10:07  <Yexo> Sounds good, but then I think we need a fairly generic policy first. Something like nielsm proposed might work for that. The "may be blacklisted" leaves room for interpretation
19:10:10  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on issue #8119: Desync after building diagonal track next to dock end https://git.io/JfnI2
19:10:35  <nielsm> maybe "that act purely as advertisement"
19:11:24  <nielsm> which would cover flooding the list, but not reasonable numbers
19:11:48  <Yexo> For this specific case: would we be fine with a single server?
19:12:09  <Yexo> If so, we should probably send them an email first before doing anything more. Seems like a much simpler solution
19:13:43  <nielsm> one would be fine, five would also be fine as long as they are reasonably different (e.g. supporting different playstyles), but a ton of identical but barely used and poorly performing servers are not
19:14:45  <_dp_> nielsm, all default servers are reasonably the same if you ask me :p
19:15:05  <nielsm> if they configure the servers with sufficient resources to offer a good play experience, they're also offering a service to the community in general
19:19:01  <frosch123> https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1066038#p1066038 <- related?
19:25:01  <Yexo> Yes, same exactly problem for me. Providing a link to forums is fine, as long as the content itself is valuable. Only providing a link but no content is problematic
19:25:25  <Yexo> Advertising your service in a server name but at the same time providing a good server would be fine for me, but only advertising and not providing a server is problematic
19:29:24  *** gelignite has joined #openttd
19:31:33  <frosch123> anyway, the solution back then was to not waste time with making policies, but just stating "due to overwhelmingly demand we removed xyz"
19:32:08  <frosch123> so, case by case basis
19:32:18  <Yexo> Thanks, the outcome wasn't immediately obvious (didn't read all of the thread)
19:32:21  <frosch123> it doesn't happen that often :)
19:33:39  <frosch123> Yexo: from out pov it comes down to "remove without stating any reasons, and just referring a convoluted discussion"
19:33:55  <frosch123> which leaves no space for argueing or reference for future cases :)
19:34:35  <frosch123> essentially it puts the task of "figureing out what is the policy" to whoever disagrees with what happened
19:35:56  <frosch123> if you do that too often, you annoy people, but it works if the action matches the expectation of the huge majority
19:37:02  <Yexo> Randomly looking at 2 of the servers, it seems like people actually play(ed) on them
19:37:06  <frosch123> the streaming platforms essentially do the same. it's impossible to have clear policies on what is allowed to stream with what age restrictions
19:37:20  <Yexo> Not very actively perhaps, and I can't tell if the servers haven't been sitting in the same paused state for a long time
19:37:53  <frosch123> Yexo: did you join them as spectator?
19:37:59  <Yexo> Yes
19:38:36  <frosch123> i only looked at the server list, and 2 clients for 15 companies is rather wtf
19:38:55  <Yexo> True
19:39:15  <frosch123> i guess 15 companies is the default, so they only bothered to decrease the client limit
19:39:16  <Yexo> For msot of them the company list is full, so it could be some casual players, then never restarting the server/cleaning out old companies
19:39:38  <Yexo> oh, I even missed that
19:39:39  &l