Log for #openttd on 10th May 2020:
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00:02:53  <mcbanhas> Ok, thanks for the tip
00:19:53  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #8130: Fix #8119: Update docking area when clearing a shore rail tile
00:20:59  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Yexo approved pull request #8130: Fix #8119: Update docking area when clearing a shore rail tile
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01:05:57  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Andrew350 opened issue #8131: Missing bounding boxes for bridge pillars of height 1 cause graphical glitches
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03:03:12  <TooTallTyler> Hello everyone. I'm having trouble with NML and have been directed here. I'm trying to create an error message if my house set is loaded on Sub-Arctic climate, since it doesn't have any snow sprites. I can only get the message to appear when I set the level to FATAL -- nothing happens at lower settings. I'd still like it to load, but warn players that the climate is not supported. What am I doing wrong?
03:03:32  <TooTallTyler> Here is the code, which appears immediately after the grf block:
03:03:33  <TooTallTyler> if (climate == CLIMATE_ARCTIC)
03:03:33  <TooTallTyler> {error(FATAL, string(ERROR_REQUIRE_TEMPERATE));}
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03:39:37  <Eddi|zuHause> TooTallTyler: lower level error messages get displayed in the NewGRF window, not as a red box
03:40:40  <TooTallTyler> Thanks. Is there any way to show the player a pop-up error while still loading the NewGRF?
03:43:18  <Eddi|zuHause> not that i know of
03:44:30  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, "missing snow sprites" would qualify as a "warning" level severity in my view
03:49:58  <TooTallTyler> Agreed. Thanks.
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04:00:15  <TooTallTyler> Does anyone know a better way to check for the presence of a nearby house class than a cascade of switch blocks? Some type of loop maybe? "nearest_house_matching_criterion" would be ideal if we could define a different class or ID, but it's limited to the same as the item making the check. Here's what I've got for low-density houses to keep them from building near office buildings (class 2):
04:00:22  <TooTallTyler> switch(FEAT_HOUSES,SELF, office_space_8, nearby_tile_house_class(-1,-1)){258: return 0;return 1;}
04:00:22  <TooTallTyler> switch(FEAT_HOUSES,SELF, office_space_7, nearby_tile_house_class(-1,1)) {258: return 0;office_space_8;}
04:00:22  <TooTallTyler> switch(FEAT_HOUSES,SELF, office_space_6, nearby_tile_house_class(-1,0)) {258: return 0;office_space_7;}
04:00:22  <TooTallTyler> switch(FEAT_HOUSES,SELF, office_space_5, nearby_tile_house_class(1,-1))	{258: return 0;office_space_6;}
04:00:22  <TooTallTyler> switch(FEAT_HOUSES,SELF, office_space_4, nearby_tile_house_class(1,1))	{258: return 0;office_space_5;}
04:00:23  <TooTallTyler> switch(FEAT_HOUSES,SELF, office_space_3, nearby_tile_house_class(1,0))	{258: return 0;office_space_4;}
04:00:24  <TooTallTyler> switch(FEAT_HOUSES,SELF, office_space_2, nearby_tile_house_class(0,-1))	{258: return 0;office_space_3;}
04:00:26  <TooTallTyler> switch(FEAT_HOUSES,SELF, office_space_1, nearby_tile_house_class(0,1))	{258: return 0;office_space_2;}
04:00:53  <TooTallTyler> Super ugly, and I want to expand the radius but the code starts to get ridiculous
04:01:11  <Eddi|zuHause> please never paste so many lines into a chat, use a pastebin
04:01:31  <Eddi|zuHause> e.g.
04:02:32  <TooTallTyler> Will do. I'm new to IRC and coding in general.
04:06:52  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 opened issue #8132: Crash on loading savegame from #4524 (station related)
04:06:58  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, i can't really help you with houses. in general, NewGRFs have no concept of "loops", but the game occasionally uses a concept called "circular tile loop" (where "circle" means "square", on account of using max-distance instead of euclidean)
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04:14:46  <TooTallTyler> I think that's what nearest_house_matching criterion uses, since I define a radius. But it appears to let me search for only houses which match this house's ID, building_class, or GRFID -- unlike nearby_tile_house_class which lets me define a different class.
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06:26:12  <andythenorth> o/
06:26:28  <andythenorth> ENotEnoughSleep
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07:00:31  <Samu> hello
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07:47:05  <andythenorth> so Better Living Through Chemistry
07:47:41  <andythenorth> do I do the existing fill-the-oceans-with-plastic-from-crude-oil-sources-but-life-is-good
07:48:15  <andythenorth> or the emerging-we-really-have-not-scaled-it-yet-recycling-and-bio-plastics-but-life-could-be-better
07:48:17  <andythenorth> ?
07:48:18  <andythenorth>
08:07:59  <nielsm> make two parameters to the grf, "peak oil year" and "recycling transition period in years"
08:09:40  <nielsm> to control when recycling centers begin being built, when new oil extraction industries stop being built, and the output curves of extraction industries
08:09:57  <nielsm> and something with use of fossil fuels as well
08:10:28  <nielsm> that would probably function best as a separate grf, not integrated in FIRS
08:12:44  <andythenorth> parameters exist at one level of depth only currently :)
08:12:59  <andythenorth> so parameters for a specific economy would be clunky in the UI
08:13:16  <nielsm> that's why it would be best as a separate GRF
08:13:17  <andythenorth> and parametric parameters is probably A Bad Idea :)
08:13:42  <andythenorth> 2 economies: Better Living Through Chemistry, Even Better Living Through Chemistry :P
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08:15:07  <nielsm> could have one of them only allow extraction to be built during worldgen and use the "production only decreases" rule (or have a limited supply)
08:15:41  <nielsm> hm that could be interesting :D have a limited supply of raw material, which needs to be recycled for any industry to function at all
08:16:07  <andythenorth> o_O
08:16:15  <nielsm> any cargo deleted is just industry potential lost forever
08:16:20  <nielsm> hardcore mode
08:16:56  <andythenorth> move it in and out of town storage :P
08:17:09  <andythenorth> so towns have a fixed weight / volume of cargo in play
08:17:25  <andythenorth> which can be extracted by the industries in the town area
08:17:33  <nielsm> something like that
08:17:51  <nielsm> teach players to not sell trains with cargo on board
08:18:00  <nielsm> nor let those station ratings drop
08:22:48  <andythenorth> hmm
08:22:56  <andythenorth> arbitrary newgrf regions :|
08:23:04  <andythenorth> that was an idea we haven't pursued :)
08:24:42  <andythenorth> define regions, with circular cargo amounts in them
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08:28:33  <nielsm> maybe stick to simple regions defined by a capital city and the region of a tile is just defined by the nearest capital
08:30:52  <nielsm> add a context for newgrf variables that is "region" rather than "town"
08:36:02  <andythenorth> could work
08:36:33  <andythenorth> I would like industry storage on whole-map, regions, and per town
08:37:00  <andythenorth> and utility monthly cb that runs over each once every n ticks
08:37:08  <andythenorth> monthly / n ticks
08:37:12  <andythenorth> :P
08:40:08  <nielsm> make global storage a hashtable, possibly indexed two levels, by four character codes
08:40:26  <nielsm> and let it be shared between newgrfs (and potentially also GS)
08:41:14  <nielsm> or have a private and a public global storage
08:41:43  <andythenorth> pandemic: global oil production falls :P
08:42:07  <andythenorth> 1000t plastic delivered to town, fishing grounds production falls 10%
08:43:02  <andythenorth> maybe I should just write a GS that is generated by the FIRS compile
08:43:10  <andythenorth> and teach it to reverse engineer which industry is which
08:43:28  <andythenorth> and automate uploading both to Bananas at once
08:43:46  <andythenorth> can GS depend on specific versions of specific grf?
08:44:06  <nielsm> GS can't check for GRFs at all, iirc
08:44:20  <nielsm> apart from indirect stuff like whether a specific cargo label exists
08:44:27  <nielsm> or specific industry exists
08:48:59  <andythenorth> maybe I could put a key industry in, that doesn't build, but GS can find
08:49:13  <andythenorth> with 16 cargos in and 16 out, how many UUIDs can I generate?
08:51:29  <andythenorth> oh also how many combinations of label? :)
08:51:35  <andythenorth> quite a lot of UUIDs?
08:51:49  <andythenorth> so I could force GS to depend on a very specific FIRS industry
08:51:59  <nielsm> I don't think there's really a requirement that labels are printable characters
08:52:09  <nielsm> or valid UTF8 or anythiung
08:52:13  <nielsm> so 2^32 labels
08:52:43  <andythenorth> it will appear in cargo flow etc though
08:52:51  <andythenorth> so it needs to be actually a valid cargo :)
08:53:32  <andythenorth> still lots
08:54:12  <andythenorth> probably enough that I could semver
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09:20:01  <andythenorth> hmm
09:20:10  <andythenorth> plastics industry has start date issue :P
09:20:36  <andythenorth> hydrocarbon-derived plastics are really 1950s onwards :P
09:21:21  <andythenorth> "Rule 1"?
09:23:28  <nielsm> transport fever (2) doesn't really pay attention to that at all
09:23:39  <nielsm> you can build oil->plastics industry in 1850
09:23:54  <andythenorth> Steeltown has electric arc furnace with no date restriction
09:24:02  <andythenorth> Rule 1
09:24:29  <nielsm> just put it in the readme, "if you want realism don't start the game before 1950"
09:25:00  <andythenorth> I did try restricting some industries, but it's one extra level of frustration :)
09:25:07  <andythenorth> it doesn't make a pleasing game
09:27:02  <nielsm> many players don't pay attention to the year anyway, just keep building for thousands of years
09:28:48  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on issue #7623: Support for macOS Catalina.
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10:29:29  <mcbanhas> Good afternoon
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12:20:28  <andythenorth> well
12:20:29  <andythenorth>
12:22:09  <Wolf01> o/
12:22:30  <Wolf01> andythenorth, how is going there?
12:25:12  <Wolf01> Hmm, is Russia trying to reach USA and battle for the first position? Is this a sort of a pity race?
12:28:11  <andythenorth> Wolf01 is going acceptably
12:29:34  <andythenorth> I am confused about lunch though
12:29:43  <andythenorth> somebody un-quit peter pls
12:30:16  <Wolf01> You have my permission to get lunch
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12:42:55  <_dp_> Wolf01, if you mean covid russia just does a lot of testing, on deaths (and so actual infection spread) it's way behind
12:43:50  <mcbanhas> frosch123, can you tell me again what was the problem with adding a period by the end of certain message prompts? I'm not sure I quite understood it how can that lead to inconsistencies with mods.
12:46:29  <Samu> @ports
12:46:29  <DorpsGek> Samu: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
12:59:36  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne opened pull request #136: Fix #112: Remove version updating from release tarballs.
12:59:57  <Samu> hummm
13:00:45  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne updated pull request #136: Fix #112: Remove version updating from release tarballs.
13:01:12  <FLHerne> blathijs: Can you test if ^ solves your problem?
13:03:58  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne commented on pull request #115: Fix #112: use setuptools_scm to determine version
13:05:30  <FLHerne> mcbanhas: The text in prompts can be provided by a NewGRF
13:05:55  <nielsm> can it really? where?
13:06:06  <FLHerne> For example, "Can't build here... This text is from a grf"
13:06:12  <FLHerne> I think?
13:06:14  <nielsm> oh right
13:07:11  <mcbanhas> Do we have any examples where that is happening right now?
13:07:28  <nielsm> I think some ECS industries may be doing that
13:07:44  <nielsm> they can have some very particular construction requirements
13:09:32  <mcbanhas> Hmm, if it's just a couple of mods, then it's a very minor trade off. But if you know of any other examples, I'd like to see.
13:09:54  <FLHerne> FIRS industries have misc. requirements too
13:10:23  <FLHerne> But yes, it's not something that people see much
13:10:46  <mcbanhas> FIRS is in active development, we can just tell the guys to add a period at the end xD
13:10:56  <frosch123> mcbanhas: <- currently green and pink text are consistent. pink people cared a lot about making it look good with the pre-existing green. changing green makes pink look bad
13:12:02  <frosch123> mind that the different text colours in the description of ottd and newgrf settings is a bug in ottd :)
13:12:09  <frosch123> not the fault of the addons
13:12:09  <mcbanhas> Hahaha that's hilarious, their  vehicle list cmds are compatible with my changes
13:12:20  <mcbanhas> but not with the original game
13:12:57  <mcbanhas> All original TTD text in vehicle list is using title capitalization, but their mod is using sentence.
13:14:26  <mcbanhas> And this is also an example of how mods aren't necessarily consistent with current OpenTTD text.
13:14:34  <frosch123> mcbanhas: i would claim that title/sentence capitalisation is only noticed by trained eyes
13:14:55  <FLHerne> Really bad idea: {PERIOD_IF_MISSING} tag :P
13:15:15  <FLHerne> Replaced by "." if the previous character wasn't "."
13:15:34  <nielsm> or ? or !
13:15:38  <mcbanhas> I would claim a period could go just as unnoticed, perhaps even less
13:15:40  <FLHerne> (or was alphanumeric, because ?. would look silly)
13:15:41  <frosch123> FLHerne: don't patronise add-on authors. they really don't like that
13:15:42  <FLHerne> ^
13:15:50  <mcbanhas> The point is, it's already inconsistent.
13:16:05  <mcbanhas> Because mods aren't following any rules.
13:16:07  <FLHerne> frosch123: It would be to solve compatibility with existing grfs
13:16:30  <FLHerne> Maybe _IF_ABSENT would upset them less
13:17:42  <mcbanhas> But tbh I was considered relaxing the rule for periods because of "Vehicle is getting old" messages
13:18:51  <mcbanhas>
13:18:58  <mcbanhas> I'm not sure if a period would go well here
13:21:59  <FLHerne> mcbanhas: I think I proposed "period if more than one sentence" before
13:22:28  <FLHerne> The problem without trailing periods is when there's one in the middle of the string
13:23:04  <mcbanhas> That's not a bad idea
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13:24:06  <mcbanhas> It would solve woes regarding the use of periods and everybody would get a slice of the cake.
13:24:37  <nielsm> yeah
13:24:44  <nielsm> if there's more than one sentence, always a trailing period
13:25:07  <nielsm> if only one sentence, trailing period is optional but recommended if other strings in same context end with period
13:25:52  <mcbanhas> That settles the matter then, I'll write it in.
13:26:36  <FLHerne> I guess the risk is it just ends up looking inconsistent
13:26:56  <FLHerne> But I think it should be ok
13:32:30  <mcbanhas> I think so too.
13:34:03  <mcbanhas> I'm gonna word it the following way "paragraphs consisting of more than one sentence will always end in a period"
13:34:25  <mcbanhas> *period or an end-of-sentence mark
13:34:39  <FLHerne> or other end-of
13:35:49  <mcbanhas> yes
13:50:23  <LordAro> TrueBrain: mild reminder poke regarding 20.04 compilefarm/OTTD PRs
13:51:09  <michi_cc> Did somebody fix ICU layout for Linux yet?
13:52:00  <glx> no
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13:52:29  <LordAro> it's basically just dead code at this point
14:01:18  <trainathon> LordAro, if it is dead code is it dnot a good idea to remove the code?
14:01:58  <LordAro> basically dead code
14:02:11  <LordAro> that provides useful functionality that hasn't been replaced by anything
14:03:43  <trainathon> ok, that i interpret that wrong
14:04:25  <TrueBrain> LordAro: pretty sure others can approve those PRs too :P
14:04:34  <TrueBrain> I am surprised glx hasn't approved them yet :P
14:04:46  <glx> hmm ?
14:04:51  <glx> oh
14:09:57  <mcbanhas> Little controversial change. I'd like to change "Game Options"  to just "Options"
14:10:48  <mcbanhas> Because "Settings" is just that, not "Game Settings"
14:12:00  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 opened pull request #8133: Fix: Stop any gamelog action when recovering from SlError()
14:13:16  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/CompileFarm] glx22 approved pull request #43: Add: Ubuntu focal image
14:15:11  <FLHerne> mcbanhas: I agree, but it's still not clear why/how "Options" and "Settings" are different
14:15:22  <Eddi|zuHause> mcbananas we spent years renaming away from "patch settings"
14:15:44  <FLHerne> Of course, I don't think anyone knows that...
14:15:55  <frosch123> mcbanhas: good look explaining people where to find settings if you call them "options" and "settings"
14:16:06  <_dp_> finally an ubuntu update that fixes more than it breaks xD
14:16:09  <frosch123> at least "game options" has a word in front to make it distinct
14:16:14  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 approved pull request #8127: Add: [AzurePipelines] Ubuntu Focal (20.04) build for releases
14:28:20  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne updated pull request #136: Fix #112: Remove version updating from release tarballs.
14:29:06  <mcbanhas> some more funny English :D
14:30:20  <mcbanhas> "Unmark all contents for download" perhaps?
14:31:50  <FLHerne> That is funny :D
14:31:58  <FLHerne> But "Unmark...for" is weird
14:33:39  <LordAro> "Deselect all content previously selected for download"
14:33:46  <FLHerne> Yes
14:33:53  <LordAro> it's a tooltip, so no issues with length
14:34:05  <FLHerne> I think s/Mark/Select/ everywhere
14:34:17  <FLHerne> Using two different verbs for the same action is confusing
14:34:18  <LordAro> or probably unselect, for consistency with the button
14:34:37  <FLHerne> No, make it Deselect and change the button :P
14:34:47  <LordAro> or that :p
14:35:05  <mcbanhas> The button is "unselect all"
14:35:10  <FLHerne> [15:34][9999][flh ~/]$ isword unselect   -> 'unselect' is not a word!
14:36:27  <mcbanhas> I'd rather use unmark because of this
14:36:29  <mcbanhas> STR_CONTENT_SELECT_UPDATES_CAPTION                              :{BLACK}Select upgrades
14:36:29  <mcbanhas> STR_CONTENT_SELECT_UPDATES_CAPTION_TOOLTIP                      :{BLACK}Mark all content that is an upgrade for existing content to be downloaded
14:36:34  <FLHerne> mcbanhas: Change all instances of "Mark" to "Select", and all uses of "Unmark" or "Unselect" to "Deselect"
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14:37:08  <FLHerne> That's exactly the wrong reasoning IMO
14:37:14  <mcbanhas> Mark/Unmark is a simpler word than select/deselect
14:37:25  <FLHerne> It really isn't
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14:38:08  <FLHerne> In the context of computers, "Select" is the definitive word for that action
14:39:08  <mcbanhas> That's the point. Computer language sounds a bit too mechanical to always use select this, select that
14:39:26  <FLHerne> "Mark" is less clear on its own, and much less clear when "select" is also used to describe the same action
14:39:45  <FLHerne> Seriously, no
14:39:52  <FLHerne> "Select that" is what it does
14:40:49  <FLHerne> Everyone instantly, intuitively knows what "select" in a list does, probably without even reading the word properly
14:41:25  <FLHerne> I see "mark", and suddenly I have to figure out what "marking" does
14:41:36  <FLHerne> Only to find out that it just meant "select" anyway
14:41:39  <LordAro> agreed
14:41:56  <LordAro> mcbanhas: you wanted some native English speakers opinion on this before, maybe you should listen :)
14:42:07  <FLHerne> I mean, I know what "mark" means *in general*
14:42:46  <FLHerne> But in the specific context of a list, "select" has the deeper meaning "choose a set of items to perform an action on"
14:42:48  <mcbanhas> Yeah, but most package managers I'm familiar with use the term "Mark"
14:42:54  <FLHerne> Which "mark" doesn't
14:43:00  <mcbanhas> Here's muon
14:43:01  <mcbanhas>
14:43:07  <mcbanhas> Here's synaptic
14:43:08  <FLHerne> Most Linux package managers are written by weird technical people
14:43:22  <mcbanhas>
14:43:29  <FLHerne> (as was the OTTD content downloader)
14:43:51  <mcbanhas> Well alright
14:43:52  <FLHerne> It has exactly the opposite effect of what you're trying to achieve
14:43:54  <LordAro> "Mark for removal/purge" reads better in that context, imo
14:44:43  <mcbanhas> That's sort of the thing. Marking implies making a list of stuff to apply later
14:45:01  <FLHerne> Which is the problem
14:45:02  <mcbanhas> selecting implies picking one more frequently than picking multiple
14:45:26  <mcbanhas> But the thing is that you can select multiple packages in bananas
14:45:27  <FLHerne> "Mark" implies the wrong sort of 'later', IMO
14:46:21  <FLHerne> "select" is used almost universally for multiple items too
14:46:38  <LordAro> yes, you don't mark from a list
14:46:41  <LordAro> you select from a list
14:46:43  <FLHerne> I mark emails as read, or store bookmarks
14:46:54  <FLHerne> To mark something is at least semi-persistent
14:47:56  <FLHerne> beyond just a modal step in the middle of an action
14:48:38  <mcbanhas> so how do we redo "Mark all content to be not downloaded" again?
14:49:02  <FLHerne> <LordAro> "Deselect all content previously selected for download"
14:49:05  <FLHerne> ^agreed
14:49:28  <LordAro> (Or Unselect)
14:49:45  <FLHerne> No, "unselect" isn't a word and we should get rid of it :P
14:52:23  <LordAro> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
14:52:29  <LordAro> i'm thinking of the translator workload again
14:52:48  <LordAro> lots of changes all at once will mean that changes get missed
14:53:19  <mcbanhas> LordAro, I think I can submit all of the isolated capitalization changes first actually
14:53:42  <mcbanhas> So the rewrites can then be handled separately
14:53:53  <LordAro> :)
14:54:51  <mcbanhas> I mean those rewrites will have capitalization changes of their own, but then it will be much easier
14:55:09  <mcbanhas> and I will leave all punctuation changes to the very last end
14:55:53  <FLHerne> LordAro: I suggested to make the translator ignore the relevant megachanges altogether, do you think that would be sane/feasible?
14:56:03  <mcbanhas> Ok so before we had
14:56:05  <mcbanhas> STR_CONTENT_MATRIX_TOOLTIP                                      :{BLACK}Click on a line to see the details{}Click on the checkbox to select it for downloading
14:56:05  <mcbanhas> STR_CONTENT_SELECT_ALL_CAPTION                                  :{BLACK}Select all
14:56:05  <mcbanhas> STR_CONTENT_SELECT_ALL_CAPTION_TOOLTIP                          :{BLACK}Mark all content to be downloaded
14:56:05  <mcbanhas> STR_CONTENT_SELECT_UPDATES_CAPTION                              :{BLACK}Select upgrades
14:56:05  <mcbanhas> STR_CONTENT_SELECT_UPDATES_CAPTION_TOOLTIP                      :{BLACK}Mark all content that is an upgrade for existing content to be downloaded
14:56:08  <mcbanhas> STR_CONTENT_UNSELECT_ALL_CAPTION                                :{BLACK}Unselect all
14:56:10  <mcbanhas> STR_CONTENT_UNSELECT_ALL_CAPTION_TOOLTIP                        :{BLACK}Mark all content to be not downloaded
14:56:15  <mcbanhas> now we have
14:56:26  <mcbanhas> STR_CONTENT_MATRIX_TOOLTIP                                      :{BLACK}Click on a package to see the details. Check the box to select it for download
14:56:26  <mcbanhas> STR_CONTENT_SELECT_ALL_CAPTION                                  :{BLACK}Select all
14:56:26  <mcbanhas> STR_CONTENT_SELECT_ALL_CAPTION_TOOLTIP                          :{BLACK}Select all content to be downloaded
14:56:26  <mcbanhas> STR_CONTENT_SELECT_UPDATES_CAPTION                              :{BLACK}Select upgrades
14:56:27  <mcbanhas> STR_CONTENT_SELECT_UPDATES_CAPTION_TOOLTIP                      :{BLACK}Select all upgrades for existing content to be downloaded
14:56:30  <mcbanhas> STR_CONTENT_UNSELECT_ALL_CAPTION                                :{BLACK}Deselect all
14:56:32  <mcbanhas> STR_CONTENT_UNSELECT_ALL_CAPTION_TOOLTIP                        :{BLACK}Deselect all content previously selected for download
14:56:35  <mcbanhas> Pardon the spam
14:56:36  <FLHerne> Since there are no actual semantic changes intended, there shouldn't be a need to force retranslations
14:56:40  <LordAro> you must use a pastebin for this
14:56:41  <FLHerne> mcbanhas: Please don't do that
14:56:53  <mcbanhas> sorry I'll use pastebin next time
14:56:57  <LordAro> anything more than 3 lines is just irritating
14:57:54  <mcbanhas> It's been a while since I used IRC frequently. I forgot flooding was a think
14:57:57  <mcbanhas> *thing
14:58:11  <LordAro> "Select all available upgrades for previously downloaded content" ?
14:58:21  <FLHerne> mcbanhas: And please don't use, it's bad for reasons :P is good
14:58:43  <Markk> FLHerne: Why is it bad?
14:58:47  <glx> we used to use ottdcoop pastebin but it's broken
14:59:02  <FLHerne> mcbanhas: Most clients have a setting to prevent accidentally pasting too much
14:59:39  <mcbanhas>
15:00:34  <LordAro> yeah, STR_CONTENT_SELECT_UPDATES_CAPTION_TOOLTIP definitely still awkward
15:00:45  <FLHerne> Markk: requires (ed?) JS, big nasty ads
15:01:06  <FLHerne> tracking cookies, social media tracking crap, just no
15:01:29  <Markk> FLHerne: Aha, okey. Nothing I've noticed, but I'm blocking third party cookies and have an adblocker.
15:01:46  <Markk> But sure, probably valid reason.s
15:02:16  <mcbanhas> what about just "select all package upgrades for download"?
15:02:33  <mcbanhas> or "all content upgrades"
15:02:41  <FLHerne> Nothing else uses 'package'
15:03:17  <LordAro> "content item", perhaps?
15:03:40  <LordAro> oh, not in the upgrade tooltip
15:03:41  <FLHerne> Oh, one of the tooltips does
15:04:09  <mcbanhas> I changed "line" to package on the first one
15:04:11  <FLHerne> LordAro: Everything else just says "select all content to ...",
15:04:14  <FLHerne> I think that's ok
15:05:26  <FLHerne> "Select all upgrades to previously-downloaded content" ?
15:05:46  <LordAro> "Select all available upgrades for previously downloaded content" ?
15:06:04  <FLHerne> Hm
15:06:08  <mcbanhas> Those are all very long and complex
15:06:15  <FLHerne> Yours is nicer, but I still think s/for/to/
15:07:05  <mcbanhas> "Select all content upgrades for download" keep it short and sweet
15:07:11  <FLHerne> Oh, did you change updates->upgrades?
15:07:30  <FLHerne> I think that's worse
15:07:38  <FLHerne> No, you didn't
15:07:48  <FLHerne> Presumably someone did, given the string names :P
15:07:56  <mcbanhas> Although I'd prefer "Select all package upgrades for download" because I want to keep it consistent with STR_CONTENT_MATRIX_TOOLTIP
15:08:20  <mcbanhas> I can change upgrades to updates
15:08:22  <FLHerne> mcbanhas: Introducing the term "package" isn't helpful IMO
15:08:39  <FLHerne> There's too much random jargon already
15:08:56  <FLHerne> (yes, it's familiar to Linux users, but no-one else)
15:09:10  <mcbanhas> Items then
15:09:28  <FLHerne> Yeah
15:12:07  <FLHerne> mcbanhas: I do like "Select all content updates for download"
15:12:13  <FLHerne> It's clear and to the point
15:12:21  <mcbanhas>
15:13:08  <mcbanhas> what's STR_CONTENT_SELECT_ALL_CAPTION_TOOLTIP for?
15:13:14  <mcbanhas> can't find the button for that
15:13:35  <LordAro> when joining a MP game, you get the option to download all missing GRFs
15:13:37  <FLHerne> mcbanhas: I like it
15:14:09  <FLHerne> mcbanhas: STR_MATRIX_TOOLTIP should have a period? Multiple sentences ;-)
15:15:02  <mcbanhas> I'm leaving punctuation for a final commit
15:15:12  <FLHerne> Ok :-)
15:15:13  <mcbanhas> Bc I haven't done it yet
15:15:26  <mcbanhas> and it's easy to do once all rewrites are approved
15:16:41  <mcbanhas> To be perfectly honest, I think we should eventually remove a lot of the tooltips. Many are highly redundant.
15:16:44  <FLHerne> mcbanhas: Hm, you have "to be downloaded" vs "for download"
15:17:03  <mcbanhas> I assume it's a lot of work though, bc I think they're tied to specific menu code
15:17:03  <FLHerne> Just use "for download" in select-all
15:17:07  <FLHerne> too
15:17:27  <LordAro> mcbanhas: you're quite welcome to do so :p
15:17:52  <mcbanhas> LordAro, I would, if it was a matter of just eliminating strings. turns out it's not.
15:18:09  <LordAro> well it is
15:18:15  <LordAro> just involves a very minor amount of code changes
15:18:24  <LordAro> which is basically just finding the code and removing it
15:19:22  <mcbanhas> I'll open an issue ticket in the future then.
15:19:26  <mcbanhas> But first this.
15:19:45  <LordAro> mm
15:20:53  <FLHerne> LordAro: It might be better to improve the tooltip code so it just does nothing if the string is empty
15:21:08  <FLHerne> That way it doesn't potentially break other translations
15:21:35  <Yexo> FLHerne: Then we have english language strings that are empty but do have a translations
15:21:39  <Yexo> That feels wrong
15:21:56  <FLHerne> English is a fairly compact language, I can imagine there being cases where the meaning would fit in a sane English button text but not some other language
15:22:09  <LordAro> yeah, the language code would have to be completely rewritten for that to work
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15:22:44  <Yexo> If there are cases like that we could consider it, but that doesn't solve the issue of "I think these tooltips are redundant and should be removed"
15:22:49  <Yexo> If we remove them, we should do so for all languages
15:22:54  <LordAro> ^
15:22:57  <mcbanhas> Pretty much
15:23:08  <mcbanhas> That would also make translation less tedious
15:23:13  <mcbanhas> less lines, quicker job
15:23:23  <mcbanhas> *fewer lines
15:23:40  <FLHerne> Yexo: I mean, the tooltip could be redundant in English but not other languages, depending on exactly what the button text says
15:26:04  <Yexo> If we find such cases we can solve that, for now I'd assume those don't exists to make everyones live easier
15:26:55  <mcbanhas> That's more of a matter of selecting only purely redundant ones like "Game Options: Diplay game options"
15:27:49  <mcbanhas> We could rewrite redundancies to actually include useful info
15:28:10  <mcbanhas> But ah well, I'm getting ahea of myself
15:29:14  <FLHerne> mcbanhas: A tooltip that actually explained why "Game Options" are distinct from "Settings" would be helpful and non-redundant there
15:29:46  <mcbanhas> Got a suggestion? I can type it in right now
15:29:57  <FLHerne> Nope, no-one knows :P
15:30:09  <LordAro> there would have to be an actual distinction first :p
15:30:23  <LordAro> other than TTD-ish settings & OTTD settings
15:30:34  <FLHerne> "Because there was always a second settings page, and unspecified hypothetical people would complain if they were merged"
15:31:30  <mcbanhas> Well I think the main distinction is that settings are advanced customization options
15:32:02  <FLHerne> The settings already have a basic/advanced/expert selector though
15:32:05  <mcbanhas> and they apply specifically to game mechanics, etc
15:32:24  <mcbanhas> Options include base level stuff like application language, graphics, resolution
15:32:24  <nielsm> town names is the most odd one out in Game Options
15:32:30  <nielsm> since that affects worldgen
15:32:41  <mcbanhas> How so?
15:32:44  <FLHerne> Oh, I forgot the really daft thing that there's a "Game settings" category in Settings
15:33:14  <FLHerne> Which is, of course, completely different from the "Game options"
15:33:34  <FLHerne> mcbanhas: Town names really ought to be in the World Generation dialog
15:33:42  <frosch123> FLHerne: "settings" contains all ottd settings (not add-ons), "game options" contains those that were to difficult to add to "settings" due to very custom layout or logic
15:34:19  <FLHerne> frosch123: Aah, the traditional Unix implementation-driven UI :D
15:34:47  <frosch123> FLHerne: we got already rid of new settings and difficulty settings
15:35:01  <frosch123> removing game options is on the agenda for 10 years, it's just very hard
15:35:10  <FLHerne> frosch123: True, I remember when it was worse
15:35:12  <frosch123> *news settings
15:35:23  <FLHerne> The new Settings page is really nice
15:36:02  <mcbanhas> What about "Customize advanced gameplay features" for the settings tooltip?
15:36:24  <Yexo> "Transparency options" is yet another one
15:36:35  <LordAro> mcbanhas: just leave it as is for now
15:36:40  <mcbanhas> And for options "Change basic game parameters"
15:37:22  <mcbanhas> ok will do
15:38:01  <FLHerne> mcbanhas: Sorry, my fault
15:50:06  <FLHerne> glx: What do you think about ?
15:50:26  <glx> simpler than my try :)
15:50:26  <FLHerne> I think we should merge that, or yours, or neither, and release 0.5.1 imminently?
15:50:29  <mcbanhas> Any idea where can I find STR_NETWORK_SERVER_LIST_CLIENTS_CAPTION_TOOLTIP   :{BLACK}Clients online / clients max{}Companies online / companies max
15:50:48  <FLHerne> mcbanhas: Multiplayer server list?
15:50:55  <mcbanhas> cant see it
15:51:06  <mcbanhas> oh wait found it!
15:51:16  <mcbanhas> it's a tooltip for one of the separators
15:51:18  <FLHerne> mcbanhas: It's the tooltip of the "Clients" header in the table
15:52:07  <FLHerne> Oh, I should finish poking the industry example
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16:02:14  <mcbanhas> STR_NETWORK_SERVER_LIST_ADVERTISED                              :{BLACK}Advertised
16:02:14  <mcbanhas> STR_NETWORK_SERVER_LIST_ADVERTISED_TOOLTIP                      :{BLACK}Choose between an advertised (internet) and a not advertised (Local Area Network, LAN) game
16:02:28  <mcbanhas> This is a very weird formulation for a dropdown menu IMO
16:03:31  <mcbanhas> why not pick Connection type instead?