Log for #openttd on 15th May 2020:
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06:12:00  <andythenorth> o/
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06:21:29  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ilayaraja97 commented on issue #8131: Missing bounding boxes for bridge pillars of height 1 cause graphical glitches
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08:38:41  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #8149: Fix #8131: small bridges also have pillars drawn
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08:48:49  <Speeder> another day... and still very little progress in my map :(
08:49:09  <Speeder> who knew importing a heightmap and riverrs would be so hard?
08:52:55  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ilayaraja97 updated pull request #8149: Fix #8131: small bridges also have pillars drawn
09:03:17  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ilayaraja97 updated pull request #8149: Fix #8131: small bridges also have pillars drawn
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09:34:52  <andythenorth> moin
09:35:13  <LordAro> surely there's a reason "short" bridges were special cased
09:36:08  <LordAro> i know all the tunnelbridge stuff is basically voodoo, but still...
09:41:01  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #8149: Fix #8131: small bridges also have pillars drawn
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10:17:01  <Samu> hi
10:30:04  <rudolfs[m]> Is zbase graphics set actively maintained? I was wondering if there is a point to report usability issues
10:38:42  <LordAro> not afaik
10:38:50  <LordAro> aBase is intended to be its replacement
10:38:52  <LordAro> i think?
10:42:56  <rudolfs[m]> Looks like the author of aBase forked it do further the development. Will look at the graphics once I'm back home. Thanks
10:44:45  <rudolfs[m]> Hmm, aBase doesn't seem to be very active either :/
10:50:48  <LordAro> clearly we need bBase ;)
10:51:24  <LordAro> (ideally we should probably deprecate/hide one or other of them)
11:09:07  <Eddi|zuHause> do we have any control over them?
11:09:44  <LordAro> no, but we have control over bananas :p
11:09:46  <FLHerne> Zephyris is intermittently active on the forum, so you could ask
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11:27:13  <Borg> okey.. seems BSPI v2.00 works well.. no bugs spotted..
11:27:18  <Borg> I think I will leave it at GRFv6..
11:27:37  <Borg> If someone cant do as basic thing as setting Param1 correctly.. he should maybe play some other GRF after all ;)
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11:52:17  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ilayaraja97 commented on pull request #8149: Fix #8131: small bridges also have pillars drawn
12:00:01  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ilayaraja97 commented on issue #8123: "Unable to find local depot" on dead-end tram tracks (regardless of location)
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13:26:12  <Borg> question.... Monorail and Maglev trains are same on all climates?
13:28:10  <zolek> hey, I just started today and have one town with around 980 citizens with very bad reputation
13:28:28  <FLHerne> Borg: Except Toyland
13:28:30  <zolek> I've build TONS of trees and cant build bus stops
13:28:35  <FLHerne> But no-one remembers that exists
13:28:41  <zolek> how to improve reputation?
13:29:03  <FLHerne> zolek: Building trees only helps if it's on a tile that didn't already have one tree
13:29:16  <andythenorth> it does :o
13:29:25  <andythenorth> wow, years of pointless tree building :)
13:29:34  <andythenorth> sometimes I wonder how I play this game
13:29:38  <Borg> FLHerne: yeah... Toyland is out of scope :>
13:30:03  <FLHerne> zolek: Demolish all the trees
13:30:07  <FLHerne> (or about 200 tiles worth)
13:30:25  <FLHerne> You'll get the minimum possible rating, but it can't get worse
13:30:35  <FLHerne> Then plant trees on all the now-empty tiles
13:30:45  <FLHerne> (yes, it's kind of stupid)
13:40:45  <zolek> ok, thanks :D
13:42:52  <zolek> I'm not sure I'm doing it right
13:44:48  <zolek> how can i see the area of influence of the town?
13:52:16  <nielsm> I don't think there is anything to see it directly, use the land query tool (? button) to query some tiles
13:52:22  <nielsm> check the Local authority line
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13:54:02  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] rasputino commented on pull request #8146: Feature: Added Spanish town names
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14:05:09  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] rasputino commented on pull request #8146: Feature: Added Spanish town names
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14:11:27  <LordAro> nielsm: i thought we merged the thing that showed authority area?
14:12:16  <nielsm> oh right
14:12:19  <nielsm> I just forgot where it is
14:12:35  <LordAro> in one of the town's advanced windows, iirc
14:12:44  <nielsm>
14:12:48  <LordAro> istr raising concerns about it being too hidden at the time :p
14:16:25  <Eddi|zuHause> we have so many features that are "too hidden"
14:16:50  <_dp_> is it even useful for anything but trees? xD
14:17:20  <Eddi|zuHause> you barely find them when you know they're there, let alone finding them randomly by playing
14:19:18  <andythenorth> we should treat them like a website
14:19:25  <andythenorth> everything should be above the fold
14:19:50  <_dp_> andythenorth, you still need to leave some space for the game :p
14:19:52  <andythenorth> ideally all the navigation is placed in the top global nav
14:20:00  <andythenorth> and ideally we have navigation for everything
14:20:14  <andythenorth> and ideally the nav is really important
14:20:23  <andythenorth> and the most important thing is always first in the list
14:20:26  <andythenorth> all the time
14:20:41  <_dp_> people can't even find features in the top menu curently
14:20:44  <andythenorth> and everything is equally important, so it all must be first in the list
14:20:56  <_dp_> 50% don't know company goals and story book exist
14:21:00  * andythenorth is just being a dick
14:21:10  <andythenorth> too many UI design requests to 'make this more prominent'
14:21:22  <andythenorth> yes, what would you like to be less prominent?
14:23:38  <Eddi|zuHause> we could use some UI design patterns that are actually from this century
14:24:01  <andythenorth> I am -0.2
14:24:23  <andythenorth> you have made 2 statements there in 1
14:24:27  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, make one button and different ways to press it for different features? :p
14:24:33  <andythenorth> some of our UI has no design
14:24:55  <andythenorth> for the obvious reason that programmers who are good at algorithms and similar subjects
14:25:01  <andythenorth> are not always programmers who are good at UI
14:26:06  <andythenorth> so we could use some UI design patterns
14:26:19  <andythenorth> and some of those could be from this century also :P
14:29:42  <Eddi|zuHause> so does anyone here know UI design patterns from this century? :p
14:30:32  <glx> Eddi|zuHause: I remember searching for the "don't accept cargo until first vehicle" in the gui, a long time after it became a cfg only
14:32:20  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause what problems are we setting out to solve?
14:32:25  <andythenorth> change the mode of interaction?
14:36:43  <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: The problem is, radically changing the UI would upset people :-/
14:42:11  <andythenorth> I'm not sure we'd do it well
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14:55:25  <glx> I'm already lost in UI when I switch to opengfx
14:55:31  <zolek> I read somewhere that you can "join" bus stations with a train station, how to do that?
14:55:40  <glx> ctrl
14:55:56  <glx> always try the magic key :)
14:56:15  <zolek> and can you do that with existing bus-stops?
14:56:16  <glx> I think the tooltip mentions it
14:56:41  <zolek> like, I have buses already but want to join cities with railroad
14:57:06  <glx> when you build a station with ctrl you get a window to select nearby station IIRC
14:57:52  <zolek> ok, I'll try that :)
14:58:38  <FLHerne> zolek: You can join a new rail station to an existing bus stop, but you can't merge two existing stations
14:59:01  <Samu> that feature is bugged
14:59:16  <FLHerne> How so?
14:59:20  <glx> and you can also build different adjacent stations (still with ctrl)
14:59:22  <Samu> it remains when the window is closed
14:59:38  <FLHerne> That's not a bug
14:59:44  <glx> it's a feature
15:00:05  <glx> when you reopen the window the button is still pressed
15:00:55  <Samu> that's not how the other similar ones work
15:01:08  <Samu> but ok
15:01:08  <FLHerne> Transparency menu is the same
15:01:21  <glx> but other are linked to build tools
15:01:22  <FLHerne> But true that it's inconsistent with the station coverage
15:01:54  <FLHerne> glx: Station windows now have a 'coverage' button that's equivalent
15:02:12  <FLHerne> And that does go away if you close the window
15:02:23  <FLHerne> IMO *that's* a bug though
15:02:29  <glx> and probably not a show coverage in the station itself
15:02:36  <FLHerne> ?
15:02:42  <glx> I mean the Station class
15:03:05  <FLHerne> Ok, I see
15:04:12  <FLHerne> glx: Do you think that spritelayout bug is worth making nml 0.5.2 for? It seems pretty serious AIUI
15:04:46  <FLHerne> I mean, a new NML release is literally "write the changes and click the button" thanks to the automation people
15:07:01  <glx> yes it's an important bug, but including #142 would be nice too
15:07:47  <andythenorth> I would release early and often
15:07:50  <andythenorth> they are very low cost
15:08:02  <FLHerne> glx: Hm, I can fix 139 with just the trivial one-line change from the first commit and a Makefile tweak
15:08:08  <andythenorth> the biggest cost is that I have to reformat the changelog from .md to bbcode list
15:08:12  <andythenorth> which is painful as all fuck
15:13:09  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] rasputino opened pull request #8150: Feature: Added Spanish town names
15:14:20  <supermop_Home> this space frame needs more work but i'm happy with my kitbash
15:15:19  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] rasputino closed pull request #8150: Feature: Added Spanish town names
15:26:50  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] rasputino reopened pull request #8150: Feature: Added Spanish town names
15:26:50  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] rasputino updated pull request #8150: Feature: Added Spanish town names
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15:28:12  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] rasputino closed pull request #8150: Feature: Added Spanish town names
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15:34:22  <glx> oh this town names PRs are annoying
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15:37:30  <FLHerne> andythenorth: nml changelog isn't really markdown? It's just a list
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15:39:01  <andythenorth> oh you're right
15:39:03  <andythenorth> still a PITA
15:39:19  <andythenorth> I gripe more because I also have to do it for all my grfs
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15:39:44  <andythenorth> there's probably a format x -> bbcode converter in that magical utility I've forgotten the name of
15:39:46  <andythenorth> pandoc?
15:40:07  <FLHerne> There seems to be one on Github
15:40:15  * FLHerne hacks up a script for nml
15:40:58  <FLHerne> How does bbcode do nested list items?
15:42:07  <FLHerne> Just [list] inside a list?
15:42:09  <andythenorth> more [list]
15:42:12  <andythenorth> yes
15:42:33  <andythenorth> if it works, do a FIRS PR :P
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16:10:14  <_dp_> It's amazing how much resources openttd sometime wastes for totally unnecessary features :(
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16:11:27  <nielsm> glx: can we tell that spanish town names person to stop it and just make a new newgrf?
16:15:44  <andythenorth> _dp_ o_O
16:15:46  <andythenorth> ??
16:18:49  <_dp_> andythenorth, it maintains, reallocates and stores in save tile matrix for each town just to generate bloody subsidies that barely anyone cares about
16:19:18  <andythenorth> that could be trivially reimplemented with GS?
16:19:25  <_dp_> cargo dist is a bit more useful but why is in wasting tons of memory when not enabled as well?
16:19:31  <andythenorth> I haven't done a subsidy for about 10 years
16:21:25  <_dp_> andythenorth, well, if it's ok to remove smth that's part of the original game in favour of GS I'm all for it
16:21:33  <_dp_> there should be better subsidy scripts already
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16:49:25  <Borg> _dp_: because it still maintains flows? even when cargodist off? this is actually nice feature..
16:49:43  <Borg> I use flow graph tool often.. to understand my supply chain.. :)
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16:51:29  <_dp_> Borg, I don't think flow works without cargodist
16:52:09  <nielsm> the cargo flow graph is always calculated and its calculation doesn't depend on cdist settings
16:52:28  <Borg> oh thats good :) I got worried about _dp_ cleanup plan ;)
16:53:02  <andythenorth> _dp_ the chances of removing subsidies are...low :(
16:53:13  <andythenorth> if I wasn't such a clown shoes programmer, I'd start a fork
16:53:20  <andythenorth> reduced edition
16:53:41  * _dp_ already has 2 forks but that aint helping :(
16:53:42  <andythenorth> but I do not have the capabilities, and it's unlikely I'll learn :P
16:54:09  <Borg> I wish I could actually compile OpenTTD myself.. so much deps... ;) well...
16:54:55  <Borg> I mean.. not the dedicated server of course.. but GUI client... dedicated server compiles nicely..
16:54:58  <andythenorth> there aren't many other deps, if you ever comile anything else
16:55:01  <andythenorth> compile *
16:55:32  <Borg> andythenorth: maybe I should try... but first I need to upgrade my mingw compiler.....
16:55:32  <_dp_> even adding a kill switch for subsidies will require a savegame update :(
16:55:35  <Borg> with is not easy
16:56:15  <glx> msys2 is easy to upgrade
16:56:25  <glx> but using visual studio is easier
16:56:29  <_dp_> subsidy api is a perfect example of gs impotency btw, it can get subsidy properties and create a new ones
16:56:45  <_dp_> can't change stuff, can't cancel them, can't even disable default ones :(
16:56:52  <Borg> glx: Iam alergic to all those auto-magic update systems... really..
16:57:03  <andythenorth> afaik, GS was never designed, it's a side effect
16:57:09  <andythenorth> follows from NoAI
16:57:22  <andythenorth> TB might smack me down as wrong :)
16:58:30  <nielsm> well the original AI was removed in favour of NoAI, and arguable the original subsidy system is also kind of a mission system like GS is
16:58:50  <nielsm> so removing subsidies in favour of GS could be acceptable imo
16:59:15  <nielsm> but maybe write a semi-official GS that provides the same kind of basic subsidies
17:00:03  <glx> it should be possible to add code for GS full control of subsidies
17:00:06  <_dp_> nielsm, busy bee? xD
17:00:32  <nielsm> _dp_ busy bee doesn't give bonuses just for-fun objectives
17:03:21  <_dp_> hm, interesting, I though there are plenty of subsidy scripts but can't find anything
17:03:26  <_dp_> except
17:08:31  <andythenorth> if we were more purist, we'd remove all vehicles, industries, objects and houses in favour of bundled newgrfs
17:08:51  <andythenorth> I'd place low probability on that happening, but it would be more correct
17:09:09  <_dp_> andythenorth, microservice approach, no game, just bundle of newgrfs :p
17:09:14  <andythenorth> ha ha
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17:09:19  <andythenorth> quak
17:09:43  <andythenorth> _dp_ "it's all lambdas running in the cloud"
17:10:41  <Speeder> so
17:10:51  <Speeder> I am trying to use that patched OpenTTD to import rivers into a heightmap
17:10:57  <Speeder> but they are all ending off by 1 tile or so
17:13:08  <Speeder> can someone explain to me how OpenTTD heightmap coordinates work exactly?
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17:36:43  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne opened pull request #143: Add: Script to format the changelog for TT-Forums
17:37:19  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Ok, so I spent longer dealing with silly edge-cases than it would take to hand-format every changelog for the next decade, but whatever
17:38:16  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne commented on pull request #143: Add: Script to format the changelog for TT-Forums
17:42:53  <andythenorth> :D
17:43:25  <andythenorth> thanks
17:43:41  <FLHerne> Hm, I had an idea
17:43:44  <andythenorth> we can try it on the FIRS changelog
17:45:47  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master
17:45:47  <DorpsGek_III>   - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
17:45:49  * andythenorth BIAB
17:52:29  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne updated pull request #143: Add: Script to format the changelog for TT-Forums
17:57:18  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne updated pull request #143: Add: Script to format the changelog for TT-Forums
18:00:58  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] TrueBrain commented on pull request #143: Add: Script to format the changelog for TT-Forums
18:01:22  <TrueBrain> sorry, I am getting emails about NML, no clue why .. sometimes I have a hard time resisting :P
18:01:59  <TrueBrain> latter is a result of the first, not the other way around :P
18:05:05  <frosch123> @seen yexo
18:05:05  <DorpsGek> frosch123: yexo was last seen in #openttd 1 day, 20 hours, 54 minutes, and 4 seconds ago: <Yexo> Speeder: 4th post has a zip with both .nut files
18:05:27  <TrueBrain> you already miss him?! :o
18:06:36  <frosch123> i missed him for 8 years?
18:06:51  <frosch123> anyway, i shove some more bananas stuff onto him
18:06:53  <TrueBrain> want a hug? :D
18:07:17  <frosch123> there is a shared noai account by fanioz and yexo
18:07:37  <TrueBrain> the days of shared accounts is kinda over yeah :D
18:09:34  <frosch123> i wonder whether "noaic" is derived from "ottdc" :)
18:10:59  <frosch123> ah, we assigned the other libs to yexo/zuu
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18:51:12  <_dp_> why can DEBUG(desync, 2,  not print anything if I have -d desync=2 ?
18:51:21  <_dp_> fprintf next to it is printing fine
18:51:59  <frosch123> desync debug is redirected to commands-out
18:52:42  <_dp_> oh, and where is that?
18:53:51  <nielsm> a special text file
18:54:28  <_dp_> found in autosave dir
18:54:46  <_dp_> not the most obvious place I must say :p
19:01:09  <TrueBrain> RTFM! :D
19:13:31  <andythenorth> oh dear
19:13:34  <andythenorth> we got Friday TrueBrain
19:18:40  <frosch123> andythenorth: did you know that pm thinks you read mails :p
19:20:17  <frosch123> i saw earlier that pm invited a bunch of people to gh' coop org. one invitation expired after weeks :)
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19:22:23  <frosch123> TrueBrain: assuming eints wanted to store 50MB sqlite somewhere for backup (written when some cron-like job feels like it, read when the container restarts). is s3 the right thing for that?
19:23:48  <nielsm> I think a private s3 bucket is good for that yes
19:23:54  <TrueBrain> frosch123: yes
19:24:05  <nielsm> and transfer between s3 and other aws services is free iirc
19:24:05  <TrueBrain> or EFS
19:24:19  <frosch123> while the translation history is available from the git history, the info about "translation is still good, even though english changed" is not, so needs persistent storage somewhere
19:24:50  <TrueBrain> does that also means we cannot run 2 eints instances with the same data?
19:24:54  <TrueBrain> (for load distribution?)
19:25:55  <andythenorth> I stopped reading mail around 2012 or so
19:26:12  <frosch123> TrueBrain: i don't know how to synchronise two people eidting in parallel
19:26:12  <andythenorth> phone me if there's an email I need to read :P
19:26:46  <frosch123> TrueBrain: unless you want a real db server
19:26:56  <frosch123> but i assumed we committed to file storage
19:27:02  <frosch123> or git storage
19:27:09  <TrueBrain> we can use dynamodb if there is not that much data
19:27:11  <TrueBrain> but not a #1 prio
19:27:15  <TrueBrain> just something that is very nice to have
19:27:18  <frosch123> andythenorth: i know, i just was surprised that pm didnt
19:28:13  <andythenorth> can every string have it's own file? :P
19:28:19  <andythenorth> then just git
19:28:31  * andythenorth Terrible Solutions Incorporated
19:28:39  <frosch123> andythenorth: i wrote a script that fetches full translation history from git, and dumps it into sqlite
19:28:48  <andythenorth> that sounds a bit proper
19:28:59  <frosch123> takes 6 minutes for ottd :p other projects are neglible
19:29:11  <frosch123> and well, it only needs to run once
19:29:33  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] andythenorth commented on pull request #143: Add: Script to format the changelog for TT-Forums
19:30:05  <andythenorth> what if...
19:30:07  <andythenorth> no nvm
19:30:17  <andythenorth> I had an idea where the client fetches the translation strings
19:30:22  <andythenorth> no more grf releases for translations
19:30:26  <andythenorth> nvm that
19:32:57  <TrueBrain> frosch123: to add to it, bananas-api currently also cannot run with more than 1 pod at the time :)
19:33:54  <frosch123> TrueBrain: noone complained about coop eints being blocked from 16:47 to 16:57 every day
19:34:35  <frosch123> there is no load :)
19:34:52  <TrueBrain> no, the loading is not an issue at all :)
19:34:58  <TrueBrain> I meant the running 2 pods next to each other :)
19:40:39  <nielsm> andythenorth it sort of would make sense if grf's could get translations from external language files
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19:42:01  <frosch123> implement container format 3, which excludes translations from the md5sum :p
19:48:03  <andythenorth> I wonder how many translations are pure trolling and swear words?
19:48:08  <andythenorth> or ads for servers :P
19:51:31  <frosch123> on ottd wiki that was simple
19:52:14  <frosch123> if it is is littered with phone numbers and external links, it's spam
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20:28:59  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl updated pull request #8151: Fix: Desync after house replacement
20:29:53  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl updated pull request #8151: Fix: Desync after house replacement
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20:44:32  <_dp_> somehow I ended up fixing not the desync I started with but whatever xD
20:48:20  <nielsm> you accidentally the wrong bug=
20:49:01  <_dp_> I what?
20:51:15  <_dp_> changed link to a comment if that's what you meant
20:53:42  <FLHerne> _dp_:
20:54:24  <FLHerne> e.g.
20:55:25  <_dp_> %)
21:03:40  <glx> _dp_: I hope it's now detected in CheckCaches()
21:04:17  <_dp_> glx, yes, that's why I did repro for master only
21:04:27  <glx> nice my code works ;)
21:04:28  <_dp_> for 1.10.1 it's more tricky
21:04:43  <glx> yeah 1.10 doesn't have the added checks
21:05:12  <glx> but we still miss many checks
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21:48:52  <supermop_Home> did anything ever happen with nml stations?
21:49:52  <glx> nobody working on it I think
21:59:17  * andythenorth still working on this :P
21:59:32  <andythenorth> methane from gas well?
21:59:36  <andythenorth> or LNG terminal?
22:03:08  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] rasputino opened pull request #8152: Feature: Added Spanish town names
22:08:23  <andythenorth> or sleep :)
22:08:30  *** andythenorth has quit IRC
22:12:36  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on pull request #8152: Feature: Added Spanish town names
22:15:20  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] rasputino commented on pull request #8152: Feature: Added Spanish town names
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