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Log for #openttd on 24th May 2020:
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02:45:20  <Speeder> I can't f igure how to make my msys2 install pillow :(
02:45:32  <Speeder> whenever I tyr it complains there is no libjpeg
02:45:36  <Speeder> but I installed all the ones I could find
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02:54:31  <Speeder> msys2 is just nuts
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03:31:30  <Speeder> D:
03:31:35  <Speeder> why building FIRS is so hard?
03:31:40  <Speeder> old nml doesn't run
03:31:44  <Speeder> new nml refuses to compile it
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03:50:08  <Eddi|zuHause> well, $someone once told me i shouldn't bother making nml backwards compatible when i attempted to do so
03:50:43  <Eddi|zuHause> "maintaining two branches is easy" they claimed
04:06:31  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, there are probably 3 viable paths here: 1) roll back to an older system (probably just python) version to make nml run, 2) backport the commits that made nml run on the newer system/python to the 0.4 branch, or 3) revert the offending removal-commits from firs master
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05:30:05  <Speeder> what was first version of nml that supports 16 outputs?
05:31:08  <Speeder> to make firs compile I ended making a franken toolchain with lots of mixed versions of old stuff until nml ran, and even then had to edit some py files on nml itself because it was using stuff that was removed from python
05:31:13  <Speeder> because I couldn't downgrade python
05:31:38  <Speeder> I sadly can't just use newer firs because they removed the stuff I want to actually use
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06:30:08  <Speeder> so grpahviz was crashing
06:30:23  <Speeder> so I download a new version, compiled with MSVC instead of mingw
06:30:30  <Speeder> copied all its bin files, pasted on mingw folder
06:30:33  <Speeder> now it works fine
06:30:34  <Speeder> :D
06:30:38  <Speeder> frankentools for the win
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08:12:52  <andythenorth> yo
08:14:45  <andythenorth> hmm
08:14:58  <andythenorth> the nml backwards compatibility approach
08:15:13  <andythenorth> does leave older graphs dead
08:15:21  <andythenorth> graphs? grfs :P
08:46:23  <Wolf01> o/
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08:53:34  * aRen22___ slaps aRen22___ around a bit with a large fishbot
08:56:36  <aRen22___> !?
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09:04:26  <Wolf01> I think it happened something I couldn't understand :/
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09:32:32  <Samu> hi
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09:55:17  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Yeah, I think it's a mistake at this point
09:55:36  <andythenorth> I'm 50:50
09:55:41  <FLHerne> There's too much nml code to go around breaking it
09:55:56  <FLHerne> Maybe a 1-2 [feature] release deprecation cycle?
09:56:06  <andythenorth> if the docs were versioned it would make sense
09:56:16  <andythenorth> but we don't actually simplify it for authors
09:57:10  * andythenorth words, more coffee
09:57:36  <andythenorth> the intent of aggressively moving forward would be great, but we have to do all of that, not just some of it
09:58:52  <andythenorth> oof, there are too many FIRS forks on old versions of FIRS
09:59:09  <andythenorth> and FIRS is aggressive about moving forward, so they're stuck on the old version
09:59:27  <andythenorth> and they have no route forward because they're no develolopers like me
10:03:53  <andythenorth> hmm I really need more coffee
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10:21:31  <michi_cc> I'm not very well versed in the NML internals, but is there something that would make supporting the old produce syntax exceptionally difficult, or does sombody just need to spend some work on?
10:22:22  <michi_cc> I can't imagine that any of the properties would pose a problem there.
10:25:47  <TrueBrain> fun random fact: the top 10 BaNaNaS objects (in terms of bandwidth) are good for only 45% of the traffic
10:26:42  <nielsm> michi_cc: I'm quite sure I had it working at one point
10:27:03  <nielsm> and then was told that NML syntax is not supposed to be backwards compatible and only keep the latest and greatest
10:27:52  <andythenorth> historically, AIUI, nml moved forward with removing syntax
10:28:13  <andythenorth> but I suspect that was due to a combination of 'mistakes were made' in nml
10:28:27  <andythenorth> and cleaning up weird parts of the newgrf spec that nobody should be using
10:29:24  <andythenorth> that's quite different to now
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10:30:01  <michi_cc> Well, either nml should stay backwards-compatible, or the old (0.4) branch needs to get maintanance, too.
10:30:01  <andythenorth> there are all these FIRS forks made by people who will (1) struggle to upgrade the nml (2) struggle to maintain an old python environment
10:30:09  <andythenorth> oof :|
10:30:24  <andythenorth> its the problem of producing development tools for non developers
10:30:34  * andythenorth coffee :)
10:30:50  <andythenorth> I don't want to talk myself into an accidental sadness quit :)
10:33:39  <andythenorth> nielsm probably not hard to revert the removals?
10:33:53  <FLHerne> michi_cc: 0.5.0 actually had the original Produce block code, just unused
10:34:23  <andythenorth> the problem I see, maintaining the old syntax wins nobody anything, it just feels nicer
10:34:25  <FLHerne> It got removed in 0.5.1
10:34:44  <andythenorth> the grfs using the old syntax are dead either way
10:34:49  <FLHerne> Incidentally, I really don't love the new syntax, it's pretty ugly :-/
10:35:09  <andythenorth> deferring the issue that the authors aren't capable of updating doesn't make the grfs less dead
10:36:39  <andythenorth> my point would be much better explained by an xkcd :)
10:36:45  <andythenorth> is there an appropriate one?
10:36:51  <michi_cc> That assumes everybody wants to have 16-in-16-out cargoes, doesn't it?
10:37:21  <andythenorth> they will
10:37:25  <andythenorth> it's just a matter of time
10:38:02  <andythenorth> but I think they'll want mixed syntax
10:38:09  <andythenorth> they'll have 30 industries on the old syntax
10:38:21  <andythenorth> and 1 new one on the new syntax
10:38:28  <andythenorth> all with unique hand-crafted nml
10:38:46  <andythenorth> oof
10:40:06  * andythenorth should never be the nml maintainer
10:51:41  <andythenorth> nml 0.6?  Put the old syntax back? :)
10:53:48  <FLHerne> I don't know if it's worth trying to change that in retrospect
10:54:16  <FLHerne> Are there any NML industry grfs that *aren't* FIRS or a direct fork of it?
10:57:49  <FLHerne> I mean, I'd be +1, but I probably can't be bothered to do it myself :p
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10:59:06  <andythenorth> I don't know what ECS is now
10:59:09  <andythenorth> BSPI is nfo
11:00:01  <andythenorth> (counting all the Auz Ind as one) I can name 5 FIRS forks
11:00:07  <andythenorth> there's probably more
11:04:27  <andythenorth> is it possible to have two different .exe files on windows?
11:04:39  <andythenorth> just wondering how much of a problem it is to have 2 nml
11:11:16  <nielsm> if you like to have both on path you can just rename one, like nml4.exe and nml5.exe
11:14:00  <andythenorth> ok so the biggest problem is people who depend on package managers?
11:14:08  * andythenorth has so many nmls :P
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13:09:26  <Eddi|zuHause> <michi_cc> I'm not very well versed in the NML internals, but is there something that would make supporting the old produce syntax exceptionally difficult, or does sombody just need to spend some work on? <-- i had a crude patch trying to unify the old and the new grammar, but i don't remember if there was anything needed for the internals. i think it was just about having both the old and new code to keep around
13:16:00  <nielsm> yea I'm pretty sure the hard part is making sure the grammar is unambiguous
13:16:49  <nielsm> also unrelated, the big update to derail valley is great, very much recommend if you like driving trains
13:18:12  <andythenorth> Speeder hmm
13:18:21  <andythenorth> oops unintended highlight :D
13:44:21  <glx> I think it should be possible to reintroduce removed industry vars, with a deprecated warning when they are used
13:45:36  <Speeder> glx, I would like that O.O
13:46:06  <Speeder> just woke up :D I liked that talk
13:46:32  <glx> as I don't see openttd removing support for old variables because old grf exist
13:47:37  <Speeder> the way nml works now, in my point of view, just make creating newgrfs a pain, any new newgrf author will likely want to fork whatever he is using
13:47:41  <Speeder> most newgrfs are old
13:48:21  <Speeder> so at best, a community of old nml authors will eventually show up
13:48:38  <Speeder> at worst, they don't show up at all, and you end with openttd content being made mostly by andy and noone else
13:49:01  <glx> for some nml features it can be hard to maintain both old and new syntax, but for variables it's quite easy
13:52:46  <andythenorth> and props
13:53:16  <glx> anything valid in newgrf spec should be valid in nml
13:53:38  <andythenorth> glx that just leads to people using crap parts of the API
13:53:50  <andythenorth> there are parts of the newgrf API that are borderline broken
13:54:01  <andythenorth> and it would be very confusing to authors
13:54:16  <andythenorth> Speeder out of interest, why can't you just use an older nml exe?
13:54:17  <glx> but variables and props should be ok
13:54:31  <andythenorth> yes
13:54:41  <andythenorth> it's still a false economy, because the older grfs are dead
13:54:52  <andythenorth> so maintaining support is weird
13:55:23  <glx> but authors could convert to new syntax more easily if old syntax still compiles
13:55:25  <andythenorth> but then again, if you want to do an NRT grf, and you have an older industry grf, nml 0.5 screws you
13:55:41  <andythenorth> and if you only know how to get nml from a package manager as 'latest' you're all out of luck
13:55:42  <Speeder> andythenorth, I am using the 4.5 one now, but I had to hack some of its py files
13:55:45  <glx> for a big grf it can be hard to do all conversion in one pass
13:55:47  <Speeder> because it uses stuff python removed
13:55:53  <Speeder> like "clock"
13:56:05  <andythenorth> yeah this is the problem
13:56:10  <andythenorth> I have all the pythons
13:56:12  <andythenorth> and all the nmls
13:56:35  <andythenorth> most people will just be dependent on a package manager, and no ability to install what they need
13:56:51  <andythenorth> the problem isn't nml, the problem is python is crap
13:56:58  <Speeder> since I wanted just to do a 'quick job' and I am on windows I tried to use package managers yes
13:57:03  <Speeder> ended with a mess somehow
13:57:04  <Speeder> msys2 is nuts
13:57:23  <glx> on windows there's the standalone exe
13:57:41  <Speeder> I have now 3 or 4 copies of libpng and pillow still refused to install on msys
13:57:42  <glx> at least I know it works for 0.5+
13:57:54  <Speeder> meanwhile my other python code I am using python 2.7 on windows
13:58:08  <Speeder> didn't want to risk installing python 3 on windows breaking python 2
13:58:32  <Speeder> glx, FIRS need Make
13:58:34  <glx> in msys many pip packages must be installed via pacman
13:58:37  <Speeder> so... no pure windows toolchain for that one
13:58:54  <Speeder> glx, I installed them with pacman, didn't work
13:59:00  <Speeder> python wouldn't detect them
13:59:10  <Speeder> installing pillow with pacman made python say it has no pillow
13:59:18  <Speeder> I ended finding some fugly hack on stackoverflow
13:59:25  <Speeder> interestingly even using "pip" didn't work
13:59:29  <Speeder> I had to use python -m pip
13:59:32  <Speeder> THEN it worked
13:59:42  <andythenorth> these days, I just install the python binaries, and virtualenv every project
13:59:56  <andythenorth> I used to fuck around with package manager python, but that's a disaster
14:00:06  <andythenorth> and for a while I built all the pythons myself, but also a disaster
14:00:54  <Speeder> the line to install pip:  python -m pip install --global-option=build_ext --global-option="-ldl" pillow==5.4
14:01:15  <Speeder> not using 'ldl' sometimes would crash the linker, wtf
14:02:23  <glx> pacboy -S python-pillow just works
14:03:23  <glx> and I see it in pip list
14:04:00  <glx> I think you also need pacboy -S python-pip
14:07:20  <Speeder> I did that, didn't work when I tried "make" on FIRS
14:07:37  <Speeder> dunno if it was because I was using mingw64 environment and should have used msys2 one or something
14:07:55  <glx> you never have to use msys2 env
14:08:24  <glx> and FIRS makefile is not the best ;)
14:08:51  <glx> I think andythenorth hardcodes stuff for his system in it
14:10:08  <FLHerne> Speeder: nmlc.exe has the Pillow/PLY deps and some interpreter version compiled in, it should just work
14:10:47  <glx> yes the standalone version contains full python and required libs
14:11:32  <FLHerne> regardless of anything else you have installed
14:12:04  <Speeder> ah I see
14:12:21  <Speeder> anyway, frankentools are working now... I will leave them alone for now :P
14:12:47  <glx> it's just slower because it needs to unpack in tmp every time
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14:18:43  <Speeder> any way to make stuff depend on powerplant being powered?
14:18:56  <Speeder> or to do that I would need to tinker with a "script" ?
14:22:50  <FLHerne> BSPI does it, but I have no idea how
14:23:18  <FLHerne> Borg must know
14:24:33  <nielsm> the powerplant sets some data on the town
14:24:38  <nielsm> and the other industries read that data off the town
14:26:37  <andythenorth> it's an interesting approach
14:29:17  <andythenorth> glx feel free to rewrite the FIRS makefile btw
14:29:24  <andythenorth> you'd be the 4th person to supply one
14:29:47  <andythenorth> https://github.com/andythenorth/firs/blob/v4-release-track/Makefile
14:30:03  <andythenorth> strictly speaking, I should move the install target to Makefile.local
14:38:52  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the Makefile should have the default one, and Makefile.local can be used to override it
14:39:13  <nielsm> TrueBrain: https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=87129 looks like some kind of issue with bananas/opengfx download
14:40:04  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause but what is the default?
14:40:07  <andythenorth> it's platform specific
14:40:12  <TrueBrain> nielsm: kinda disagree; seems he downloads it fine :)
14:40:20  <TrueBrain> seems more like OpenTTD is not picking up on them
14:40:24  <TrueBrain> common cause: openttd.cfg in random place
14:40:36  <TrueBrain> but how do you read a download issue in that thread?
14:40:36  <nielsm> well he gets NightGFX downloaded as the default graphics set
14:40:40  <glx> yup download seems fine
14:40:52  <TrueBrain> that for sure is not possible :D You have to select it :)
14:41:02  <nielsm> it's the second report I see of someone just installing the game and ending up with NightGFX
14:41:16  <andythenorth> call it a feature :)
14:41:18  <TrueBrain> maybe the bootstrap does funky stuff?
14:41:28  <andythenorth> is it the official binary? :P
14:41:40  <glx> nielsm: macos for both ?
14:42:13  <TrueBrain> https://wiki.openttd.org/OpenGFX_Readme <- that readme is out-of-date :D
14:42:29  <Borg> everything is in forum of BSPI on tt-forums
14:42:45  <Borg> Town storage per GRF..
14:42:52  <TrueBrain> nielsm: seems someone needs to debug with him a bit; but I don't see how it is an infra issue, so not much I can do to help. This requires a bit of OpenTTD debugging
14:43:14  <TrueBrain> of course if someone uploaded NightGFX under the OpenGFX name, stuff like this can also happen .. not sure hwo uploaded OpenGFX <latest> to BaNaNaS :D
14:43:27  <andythenorth> urgh, USB-C and NVME is so slow
14:43:31  * andythenorth backing up :P
14:44:20  <nielsm> yeah the other case was also mac: https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=87038
14:44:27  <Speeder> andythenorth, how I add multiple names to an industry? my attempt doesn't compile
14:44:41  <TrueBrain> so what is the bootstrap of OSX doing?
14:45:43  <Speeder> nevermind, literally typing "make" several times in a row, made it work
14:45:44  <Speeder> O.o
14:46:23  <Speeder> nope, it didn't
14:46:27  <Speeder> it compiles partially
14:47:01  <andythenorth> Speeder what are you trying to do? o_O
14:47:18  <Speeder> andythenorth, repurpose clay pit to be bauxite mine, since it looks similar
14:47:31  <Speeder> so I just added a line that change clay pit name to bauxite mine (I edited the language file too)
14:47:42  <Speeder> but the compiler says I am trying to concatenate a tuple Oo
14:48:01  <Speeder> File "src/render_docs.py", line 117, in get_industry_all_names
14:48:02  <Speeder>     result.append(base_lang_strings.get(name_string, 'NO NAME ' + name_string + ' ' + industry.id))
14:48:02  <Speeder> TypeError: can only concatenate str (not "tuple") to str
14:48:05  <nielsm> reproduced on windows: https://0x0.st/ipuK.png
14:48:45  <nielsm> https://0x0.st/ipuP.mp4
14:49:03  <TrueBrain> so what is the bootstrap doing?
14:49:07  <TrueBrain> how does it pick one or the other baseset?
14:49:26  <TrueBrain> (I really have no idea; never looked at that code :P)
14:50:17  <andythenorth> Speeder do you want the clay pit?
14:50:19  <nielsm> _network_content_client.RequestContentList(CONTENT_TYPE_BASE_GRAPHICS);
14:50:34  <Speeder> andythenorth, I just want to reuse claypit, so it outputs bauxite ore
14:50:46  <FLHerne> Speeder: At least one version of FIRS had an actual bauxite mine
14:50:46  <nielsm> I think it just requests the first base graphics set bananas returns
14:50:50  <FLHerne> 1.x?
14:51:01  <TrueBrain> nielsm: lolz .. that would be ... stupid? Silly? Not sure what word I want to use here :D
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14:51:24  <Speeder> FLHerne, mixing 1.x with 3.x sounds quite nuts
14:51:37  <nielsm> https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/blob/master/src/bootstrap_gui.cpp#L190-L202
14:51:43  <nielsm> is what I see from those two functions
14:51:56  <Speeder> still, Brazil is a huge net exporter of Bauxite... and we had two infamous accidents with bauxite mines in the last 4 years, can't just skip it
14:52:30  <TrueBrain> nielsm: that is like ... really silly :D
14:52:36  <TrueBrain> so for years it downloaded just what-ever came first :)
14:52:46  <TrueBrain> most likely also explains why often it was downloading an older OpenGFX
14:52:54  <TrueBrain> so this was chance based :D
14:53:00  <Speeder> (we had two different mines, but belonging to the same company, have their dams break and flood nearby towns with mud... imagine just like the default FIRS clay pit grpahics, where the site of the industry breaks open and all the water and mud slides out and wipes out a town completely out of the face of the earth...)
14:53:07  <andythenorth> Speeder what FIRS version?
14:53:10  <TrueBrain> ideally, it should show a dropdown for you to pick a version, I guess
14:53:14  <Speeder> 3.soemthing I am hacking
14:53:20  <TrueBrain> nielsm: what we can do, is fix this for now in bananas-server
14:53:22  <Speeder> 4 removed the economies I want
14:53:26  <TrueBrain> but possibly this needs attentions in the client too :)
14:53:38  <FLHerne> Speeder: Aren't you making your own economy anyway?
14:53:54  <nielsm> TrueBrain: I suppose that would be the best yes, show a list of all basesets available (and their download size) and ask which one to use, and probably default to OpenGFX explicitly
14:54:09  <Speeder> FLHerne,  yes, but it is heavily basded on Extreme and Hot Country
14:54:21  <TrueBrain> the first tt-forums you showed btw is only part of this story, ofc. For some reason his own downloads are also not showing up
14:54:29  <Speeder> https://abrilveja.files.wordpress.com/2019/01/brasil-barragem-brumadinho-021.jpg <<< how it looks when a bauxite mine gobbles up a town
14:54:33  <TrueBrain> but yeah, we can fix this in the infra for now :)
14:54:36  <andythenorth> if you just want to change the name, edit https://github.com/andythenorth/firs/blob/master/src/lang/english.lng#L229
14:54:39  <nielsm> but yeah some hack to make bananas always return opengfx first and maybe with a slight delay before any other sets
14:54:49  <andythenorth> but it's not very sustainable approach to editing FIRS :)
14:55:16  <TrueBrain> the list returned is just that, a list
14:55:19  <TrueBrain> so no need for a delay :)
14:55:22  <Speeder> andythenorth, I added one more line to that file
14:55:26  <nielsm> okay good :P
14:55:27  <TrueBrain> (in the same package are like N contentinfos :) )
14:55:38  <nielsm> I was afraid it was like one packet per item and they could risk being reordered
14:55:40  <Speeder> andythenorth, then did like the steel mill does, changing the name on my economy only, to refer to that line
14:55:49  <Speeder> but it instead complains it is concatenating tuples, everywhere
14:55:54  <TrueBrain> but it shouldn't only put OpenGFX there, also the latest OpenGFX :)
14:55:56  <FLHerne> Speeder: v4 should still have most of the industries you're interested in, though?
14:56:01  <Speeder> FLHerne, no idea
14:56:13  <FLHerne> The 'economy' file is pretty much just a list of the cargos
14:56:13  <andythenorth> Speeder probably a missing ',' or an extra ','
14:56:42  <FLHerne> IMO, forking a version that's already outdated and won't build with current tools is a bad idea long-term
14:56:53  <Speeder> andythenorth, you were right :D
14:56:59  <TrueBrain> a nasty and unexpected "bug" nielsm  :) I will fix it tonight :)
14:57:08  <andythenorth> FLHerne I'd be +1, but the v4 branch contains missing features
14:57:11  <andythenorth> 'contains'
14:57:12  <andythenorth> :P
14:57:42  <andythenorth> industry closure doesn't work, and occasionally openttd reports an industry doing something invalid
14:59:17  <Speeder> how it would do something invalid?
14:59:30  <andythenorth> I didn't look yet
14:59:44  <andythenorth> it's not a consistent warning, so it's either FIRS (likely) or OpenTTD
15:01:27  <andythenorth> Speeder it's probably plausible to migrate to FIRS v4 later
15:01:39  <Speeder> andythenorth, can a CARGO have multiple multiple names?
15:01:48  <andythenorth> yes, but it's unwise
15:01:50  <TrueBrain> purely because OpenGFX was the first entry in the database, this was working fine in the old setup nielsm  :D By accident, basically :P Who ever implemented bootstrap, was rather lazy tbh .. :P
15:01:52  <andythenorth> and there's no benefit
15:02:25  <Speeder> andythenorth, why?
15:02:32  <Speeder> the benefit is that Brazil doesn't have sugar beets
15:02:37  <Speeder> but is a huge producer of sugar cane
15:03:09  <Speeder> but everythign else is same as FIRS already have, so I would like to just rename sugar beets to sugar cane and change the graphics :)
15:06:01  <andythenorth> that's actually the case where I removed support
15:06:11  <andythenorth> sugarcane / sugar beet used to be 1 cargo, 2 names
15:06:15  <andythenorth> it's a headache
15:06:18  <andythenorth> just add sugarcane
15:07:06  <andythenorth> label is SGCN https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/CargoTypes#Cargo_Labels
15:07:36  <andythenorth> it's 1 python file, 3 lang strings, 1 import, and some crap with the icon
15:08:15  <Speeder> ah
15:10:37  <Speeder> oh, it already exists :D
15:10:39  <Speeder> nice
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15:12:56  <andythenorth> ping me if you get stuck adding the cargo
15:36:51  <Speeder> is it possible to make on a GRF, have "final" industries have a gameplay effect?
15:36:55  <Speeder> like powerplants affecting  town growth
15:37:00  <Speeder> or builders yard speeding up building?
15:37:19  <Speeder> or needing powerplant before aluminum factory is built
15:37:23  <glx> town growth is controlled by cargos
15:39:14  <FLHerne> "needing powerplant before aluminum factory is built" should be possible in the callback
15:39:50  <FLHerne> Does delivering building supplies already improve town grown in FIRS? I thought so
15:40:45  <andythenorth> nope
15:41:18  <andythenorth> it makes me irrationally sad :)
15:41:22  <andythenorth> like, it's just a game
15:41:49  <andythenorth> but it bothers me more than it should :)
15:43:24  <Borg> Speeder: https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Callbacks <- Callback 0x22 should do the trick
15:44:34  <_dp_> it's possible on paper but may not be good enough for a gameplay
15:44:54  <Speeder> well... Brazil has a huge economy around aluminum
15:45:05  <Speeder> and part of it is that we have a lot of power dedicated to that too
15:45:11  <Speeder> although it is the other way around
15:45:21  <Speeder> aluminum companies build factories, THEN they build powerplants
15:45:39  <Speeder> we also have a major cement manufacturer that built several coal powerplants for their own use
15:46:19  <Speeder> I would love if I could put hydro powerplants in t he game but... it probably would make more sense as decoration than an industry :(
15:47:45  <andythenorth> I have tried all this stuff
15:47:48  <andythenorth> OpenTTD can't do it
15:47:54  <andythenorth> and it will never be able to
15:48:20  <Borg> still. a lot has been done... :)
15:48:42  <Borg> I think people should focus more on math on industries.. instead building endless chains..
15:48:43  <Speeder> andythenorth, I thought of doing it with scripts
15:48:46  <Speeder> is that feasible?
15:49:02  <Borg> not sure.. how people play game these days.. but I its boring when its stabilizes fast..
15:49:15  <Speeder> Borg, explain better please :)
15:49:21  <Borg> Speeder: did you look at BSPI?
15:49:44  <Borg> I regred I didnt made it 10 years ago.. oh well.. ;) didnt had so much free time...
15:49:45  <Speeder> never heard of it
15:50:19  <Borg> oh.. long story short... its default OpenTTD industries in stockpiling mode.. but there are extra params..
15:50:39  <Borg> like.. Power Plant produces electrice power.. w/ is needed by secondary industries
15:50:51  <Borg> all primary industries can have reserves with depletes... and industries close
15:51:01  <Borg> secondary industry production depends on stockpiles and ratings.
15:51:11  <Speeder> cool
15:51:19  <_dp_> Speeder, with GS it depends on details, sounds possible for the most part but UI will probably suck
15:51:22  <Borg> primary industries needed valueables in town zones to boost production....
15:51:26  <Borg> and its not all 0/1
15:51:49  <_dp_> Speeder, like you can probably implement energy requirements but where do you show how much energy one has?
15:51:50  <Speeder> _dp_, with GS I am more thinking this: when certain conditions are met, industries get built on their historical locations
15:51:52  <Borg> you need scale everything... because its depeneded on each other..
15:52:11  <andythenorth> Speeder GS is really unpleasant to work with
15:52:18  <_dp_> Speeder, in town window or company goals mb if that fits but if you want power in a region to build industry there is nowhere to show it
15:52:20  <andythenorth> but don't let me put you off :)
15:52:36  <andythenorth> you have to manage savegame state, which is really fricking hard
15:52:41  <Speeder> for aluminum I am thinking this: at a certain date, bauxite mines get built on a certain place... (by the way, does "prospecting only" screw my GS?)
15:52:59  <Borg> why it should screw it?
15:53:00  <Speeder> then when industrial aluminum is supposed to start, GS build powerplants and aluminum factories
15:53:16  <Speeder> Borg, the prospecting only option, affects GS?
15:53:18  <Borg> I play w/ with prosepcting only and custom GS... to handle industries preseed.. and regenerate them only for first 25 years..
15:53:51  <Borg> I dont really understand... what do you mean affects it?
15:53:53  <Speeder> for example: I want to build stuff on specific x, y positions, does prospecting-only option blocks that for the GS?
15:53:59  <Borg> nope
15:54:06  <Borg> its independed settings
15:54:40  <Speeder> ah nice
15:55:16  <Borg> Speeder: from what I hear.. you need to employ both GRF and GS.. for what you want to do
15:55:24  <Speeder> Borg, it is what I am suspecting yes
15:56:05  <Speeder> but well... I already spent 288 hours or so just making the map... this year, that is.
15:56:10  <Speeder> I started this project allt he way back in 2014
15:56:20  <Borg> ugh... :) quite a lot..
15:56:20  <Speeder> I abandoned it back then because height limit was making the map look completely awful
15:56:23  <andythenorth> OpenTTD is really poor at anything other than coop style 'MOAR' gameplay
15:56:36  <Borg> Speeder: you sure its worth the effort? :)
15:56:38  <andythenorth> it can't do scripted scenarios etc
15:56:51  <Borg> focus on economy model... but just generate maps.. its more fun imo
15:57:00  <andythenorth> most scripting tends towards goal achievement, which are usually just 'transport moar'
15:57:02  <Borg> whatever good scenerio you will do.. it will get bored after all..
15:57:06  <Speeder> andythenorth, the scripting I Want to do is mostly so I can make the game start in 1700 but still end with historic industries in correct places
15:57:12  * Borg loves RNG..
15:57:35  <andythenorth> Speeder will probably work
15:57:35  <Wolf01> Make a route in less than 12 parsecs?
15:57:51  * andythenorth just rambling now
15:58:09  <andythenorth> but the ultimate OpenTTD games are played with YETI, NUTS and PURR
15:58:11  <Wolf01> Without terraforming
15:58:16  <andythenorth> that's what OpenTTD is good at
15:58:18  <_dp_> andythenorth, "FASTER" style also works if done right ;)
15:58:37  <Borg> andythenorth: yeah.. too bad I dont see BSPI servers yet ;)
15:58:38  <andythenorth> variant of MOAR :P
15:58:59  <andythenorth> OpenTTD is really crippled as a simulator where things change over time
15:59:06  <andythenorth> it's so bad, we should almost remove time evolution
15:59:11  <andythenorth> which would solve a lot of problems
15:59:18  <_dp_> andythenorth, openttd is crippled as a simulator period xD
15:59:25  <Speeder> seriously, for this project, stuff I learned so far: Python, GIS in general, QGIS, where to find official government maps of stuff, where to find non-official maps, a lot about my country geography that I never knew, tinkered a little with a .nuts script, learned a lot of weird functions for libre office calc...
16:00:12  <Borg> Speeder: if this gives you a fun... then go ahead... thats whats matter...
16:00:13  <andythenorth> _dp_ too true :)
16:00:27  <andythenorth> I am playing a game at the moment, it's good
16:00:32  <Borg> dont try to do something for community tho.. you can be seriosly disappointed..
16:00:38  <andythenorth> I was using pause mode a lot
16:00:48  <andythenorth> I wish the trains and industries would continue running in pause mode
16:00:50  <andythenorth> it would be much better
16:00:54  <Borg> lool?
16:01:03  <Speeder> the python thing I am not sure if I am just crazy genius or idiotically dumb... but basically I concluded that I was too lazy to fight installing a toolchain for C (my favourite language) just to process my GIS data... python 2.7 was already installed, so I went with: "well, learning python must be easier than installing C toolchain on windows"
16:01:09  <Borg> andythenorth: no comment ;P
16:01:10  <andythenorth> pause the game, but all industries and vehicles keep running
16:01:53  <FLHerne> andythenorth: date cheat
16:02:18  <FLHerne> (auto-date-cheat would be nice)
16:02:24  <Speeder> Borg, I am making project mostly to myself, and to learn things, get out of my rusty spot
16:02:39  <Speeder> although I even went to college to learn gamedev, my current "day" profession is marketing
16:02:47  <Speeder> and my game making skills were getting too rusty for my taste
16:03:23  <Speeder> I was missing all this mucking around in toolchains, coding, researching, etc...
16:04:14  <Borg> thats ok then... :) I prefer to play games instead... but if I dont like sth.. I will mod it..
16:04:15  <_dp_> andythenorth, what's the problem with unpausing it?
16:04:19  <Borg> but then.. m000ar gaming :)
16:04:21  <_dp_> especially in a singleplayeyr
16:04:43  <Borg> I b0rked a lot of games... :D
16:07:48  <andythenorth> FLHerne yes like the date cheat, but built in :P
16:08:46  <Speeder> where I get information on what the industries paremeters does?
16:08:53  <Speeder> so I can get the balance right, at least in theoretical math
16:09:12  <andythenorth> which parameters?
16:13:25  <andythenorth> _dp_ did you ever come up with a solution for newgrf vs. GS vs. game economy? :P
16:13:33  <andythenorth> we both hate it, I have NFI what would be better
16:14:15  <_dp_> andythenorth, yes and no
16:14:39  <_dp_> andythenorth, what I do lately is techically no newgrf, no GS and no economy xD
16:14:46  <_dp_> but it's ok xD
16:14:57  <Speeder> andythenorth, I mean: production multiplier, cost rate, what is "clustering", etc...
16:15:51  <_dp_> though I guess you can call it economy as money actually matters
16:16:08  <_dp_> it's just that you can spend a lot of money to save a bit of time
16:18:08  <andythenorth> I never figured out what the problem I have is :P
16:18:21  <andythenorth> but it's so weird that town growth has *nothing* to do with cargo
16:18:28  <andythenorth> and is only based on 'have 5 stations'
16:18:37  <Speeder> ???
16:18:39  <Speeder> explain that Oo
16:18:48  <andythenorth> town growth has nothing to do with cargo
16:19:26  <andythenorth> currently the game mechanic is something like this:
16:19:36  <andythenorth> - transport cargo from industries to make money
16:19:54  <andythenorth> - picking up this cargo will cause nearby towns to grow and block your routes
16:20:03  <andythenorth> it's such a weird game
16:20:10  <andythenorth> fortunately town growth can be turned off
16:20:38  <andythenorth> town growth reminds me of the brownouts and traffic in original simcity
16:20:45  <_dp_> that's not quite how it works but whatever, default growths makes no sense
16:21:23  <andythenorth> it's like getting penalised for success
16:21:30  <andythenorth> towns just spam the map
16:21:46  <_dp_> but there are GS to make it better
16:21:52  <andythenorth> GS is a joke :)
16:22:09  <andythenorth> I tried making one, it's way too hard for me
16:22:09  <_dp_> for a timed goal citybuilder is pretty much the best there is
16:22:13  <andythenorth> I'm not a good enough developer
16:22:22  <andythenorth> have to deal with saveload and all that crap
16:24:03  <_dp_> yeah, it's bad...
16:24:08  <andythenorth> I think the reason we have so few GS is that only proper programmers can write them
16:24:13  <andythenorth> whereas any idiot can write a newgrf :)
16:24:23  <_dp_> not that doing it in C++ like me is much better but at least there are more possibilities
16:25:52  <_dp_> andythenorth, in my opinion it's the opposite, proper programmers don't want to deal with that shit :p
16:28:40  <Speeder> andythenorth, your economies have themes, what was the idea with the original "extreme" one?
16:28:48  <andythenorth> there wasn't one
16:28:52  <andythenorth> that's why I deleted it
16:29:02  <andythenorth> it was mostly a copy of Railroad Tycoon 3
16:29:45  <Speeder> ah I see
16:29:54  <Speeder> well, it is being a good base for my brazil economy :D
16:30:02  <Borg> andythenorth: I agree that GS is hard... I know C very well.. but I had problems with GS...
16:30:06  <Speeder> I thought I would only expand it but just removed grain
16:30:10  <Borg> but once you pass certain point.. it goes easier..
16:30:17  <andythenorth> dealing with state is always hard
16:30:27  <Speeder> grain was using slots I needed for other things... and Brazil doesn't produce grain. (grain requires cold climates)
16:30:30  <andythenorth> newgrf doesn't have to manage state at all
16:30:54  <Borg> andythenorth: nah.. its not about state..
16:31:05  <Borg> I had very serious problem between Instance and Class.. on GS
16:31:16  <Borg> but once I got it... it went smooth
16:31:50  <_dp_> extreme idea is MOAR industries :p
16:31:51  <Borg> and in GRF you can have states as well ;P
16:32:13  <andythenorth> yes but OpenTTD manages it for you
16:32:20  <andythenorth> much easier
16:33:30  <Speeder> FIRS have some hard-on for fruit or something
16:33:42  <Speeder> whenever I look at my graph it has tons of arrows around fruit
16:33:45  <Speeder> :P
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16:34:46  <andythenorth> oof, I have lost interest in my OpenTTD game
16:35:20  <Speeder> andythenorth, you have left any other leftover industries or cargo in FIRS3 ?
16:35:29  <andythenorth> leftover?
16:35:34  <Speeder> like sugarcane
16:35:48  <Speeder> stuff that has graphics and maybe some code but is not in use in any economy
16:35:58  <andythenorth> look in the __init__ files for car