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Log for #openttd on 25th May 2020:
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00:46:24  <Speeder> how I enable debug?
00:46:27  <Speeder> -d 1 didn't work
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05:00:48  <Speeder> is it normal for openttd to spawn more passengers than the town have of population???
05:31:50  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
05:39:01  <Speeder> so... how I stop towns from erasing rivers?
05:39:03  <Speeder> O.o
05:55:53  <Eddi|zuHause> they shouldn't be doing that
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06:05:24  <andythenorth> o/
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06:18:32  <Speeder> :S
06:18:36  <Speeder> but they are doing that D:
06:18:42  <Speeder> stupid towns
06:18:44  <Speeder> erasing my rivers
06:19:28  <Speeder> my map is HORRIBLY unbalanced
06:19:44  <Speeder> one diamond mine is enough to earn me ludicrous amounts of money
06:19:53  <Speeder> and I can't even keep up with  its production Oo
06:21:14  <andythenorth> OpenTTD town growth is very confusing
06:21:17  <andythenorth> "Town growth can be accelerated by loading and unloading at least one item of cargo at up to five stations within town influence within a 50 day period."
06:21:23  <andythenorth> that can't be literally true
06:24:38  * andythenorth fixes it
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07:20:53  <Speeder> I think I just saw a buggy AI
07:21:00  <Speeder> building airports in 1780 O.o
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08:09:07  <Speeder> I think this is a bug: my cargo want to go to my competitor dock Oo
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09:42:06  <planetmaker> Hehe. Is it oil and do you both service the same oil rig?
09:42:22  <planetmaker> ^^ @Speeder ?
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11:00:36  <andythenorth> o/
11:03:48  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Why can't that be literally true?
11:04:07  <FLHerne> I think it should be 'or', but otherwise?
11:04:48  <FLHerne> Oh, that's what you changed :
11:04:49  <FLHerne> :D
11:06:20  <andythenorth> I did :)
11:06:29  <andythenorth> I'm trusting this page, it seems quite good http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/User:Mfb/Towns
11:06:39  * andythenorth currently reading town_cmd.cpp
11:07:41  <andythenorth> looking what a newgrf spec for towns might be
11:08:24  <andythenorth> I think frosch already devised it https://wiki.openttd.org/Frosch/Town_Control
11:09:00  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on issue #7970: Crash in crash handler - Assertion failed at line 2981 of window.cpp https://git.io/JvsUh
11:27:26  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that reads suspiciously pre-GS
11:27:32  <andythenorth> it is
11:28:55  <Eddi|zuHause> you should probably cut out any part of that that can be achieved by GS, and you're left with something along the lines of "decide which house gets built"
11:29:47  <andythenorth> nah that's not the goal
11:30:01  <andythenorth> the objective is control of growth
11:30:38  <FLHerne> GS can do that
11:30:45  <andythenorth> I know
11:30:58  <Eddi|zuHause> i mean something like non-circular town zones
11:31:13  <andythenorth> that would be interesting
11:31:17  <FLHerne> So why do you want to do it in a grf?
11:31:43  <andythenorth> how many GS can be packaged in a grf?
11:31:51  <andythenorth> it's not a trick question
11:31:52  <andythenorth> 0
11:32:18  <Eddi|zuHause> why would you want to package a GS in a grf?
11:32:24  <andythenorth> we have an accidental API, and we crippled newgrf because of it
11:32:32  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Hm, there's already a dependency mechanism for GS/AI
11:32:59  <andythenorth> this argument gets had every 2 weeks TBH :)
11:33:10  <FLHerne> You install a GS and OTTD automagically downloads/installs the relevant squirrel libraries
11:33:11  <andythenorth> on one side: everybody who likes the purity of GS
11:33:20  <andythenorth> on the other: the authors actually making content
11:33:31  <FLHerne> So maybe the answer is to let NewGRFs depend on a GS and vice versa
11:33:56  <andythenorth> it could be an answer
11:34:03  <andythenorth> nobody's devised a spec for it ever :)
11:34:07  <andythenorth> many have tried
11:34:17  <andythenorth> whereas we have almost total control of the game in newgrf
11:34:26  <Eddi|zuHause> there is no meaningful interface between GS and NewGRF to base a dependency on
11:34:29  <andythenorth> but we decided to abandon the proven content API because now we have GS
11:34:48  <Eddi|zuHause> plus, dependencies like this quickly conlfict with "only one GS per game"
11:35:00  <andythenorth> I have probably discussed 50 times how GS and NewGRF communication could be established
11:35:06  <andythenorth> there has never been a spec
11:35:18  <andythenorth> whereas frosch wrote a spec for newgrf town with no drama
11:35:36  <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: Dependency for game-mechanics purposes doesn't imply or require some direct interface
11:36:23  <andythenorth> specific to town control?
11:36:30  <andythenorth> GS is blind to the newgrf
11:36:30  <FLHerne> And "only one GS per game" is clearly a bad idea already
11:38:58  <Eddi|zuHause> i get why you would want tighter integration between economy GS and industry GRF, but why do you need integration between town GS and house GRF all of a sudden?
11:39:40  <andythenorth> I think it's more a case of 'why not?'
11:40:00  <andythenorth> ignore the ideas I have for FIRS, why should ~everything else have a newgrf interface, but not town?
11:40:06  <Eddi|zuHause> "why not?" -> dependency hell
11:40:21  <andythenorth> we managed the rest of newgrf without the sky falling
11:40:34  <andythenorth> give or take that refitting diagram frosch made :P
11:41:01  <Eddi|zuHause> newgrf is a very bad programming language for complex simulation stuff, which is part of the reason why state machines never happened
11:41:43  <andythenorth> it doesn't need a complex simulation, it just runs a couple of callbacks, and checks a few conditions
11:41:48  <andythenorth> ha ha dependency hell https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/VehicleRefitting
11:41:59  <Eddi|zuHause> there's no way to program and debug state machines in NFO-style assembler and stay sane...
11:42:00  <andythenorth> I like that it has its own page
11:42:36  <andythenorth> what callbacks would a town run besides growth?
11:42:39  * andythenorth looks again
11:43:15  <andythenorth> frosch had 5
11:43:29  <andythenorth> 2 of those are just text display though
11:44:16  <andythenorth> I did wonder about implement town control as a GS library
11:44:28  <andythenorth> then patching all my favourite GS to use it and re-releasing them
11:44:58  <andythenorth> I think templating squirrel from the FIRS compile might be an interesting project
11:46:37  <andythenorth> only one GS per game, but how many libs? o_O
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11:48:36  <andythenorth> we'd need a new global newgrf var: is gamescript lib in current game? (bool)
11:49:10  <andythenorth> GS libs seem to have UIDs
11:51:08  <andythenorth> can  a GS end the game?
11:51:10  * andythenorth looks
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11:51:52  <andythenorth> can lock pause
11:53:03  <andythenorth> there's no check for a newgrf, but can probably use industry cargo in / out as a fingerprint
11:54:10  <andythenorth> eh, FIRS wouldn't need a newgrf global var to find the GS
11:54:27  <andythenorth> just don't build any industry at map gen
11:54:34  <andythenorth> depend on the GS to do it
11:55:05  <Eddi|zuHause> ... i'm going to stop reading here, or i'll get nightmares
11:55:16  <andythenorth> I think this might be plausible
11:55:29  <andythenorth> it reminds me of the old days, trying to make broken things work
11:55:35  <andythenorth> it was more fun, less productive
11:56:03  <andythenorth> I think I can force the player to install both the GS and the newgrf
11:58:07  <Eddi|zuHause> you can try that, but the amount of players who will successfully manage to install FIRS will be 0
11:58:12  <andythenorth> ok so (1) generate a GS lib from the FIRS compile (2) patch the existing well known GS to use it, then re-release them(2) make FIRS depend on the GS lib
11:58:21  <andythenorth> too many (2)
11:59:19  <FLHerne> What does this FIRS GS (lib) actually do?
11:59:20  <andythenorth> probably (4) script uploading them both to bananas when releasing, because I'll forget
11:59:26  <FLHerne> Why does FIRS need to care about towns?
11:59:46  <andythenorth> I want control of town growth
11:59:53  <andythenorth> there's no rationale, I just want it
12:00:31  <FLHerne> ok
12:00:53  <andythenorth> the disconnect between towns and cargos has always bothered me
12:01:05  <andythenorth> it's like two parallel games going on
12:01:28  <andythenorth> I have towns being served for pax and mail, purely so I can build stations there
12:01:45  <andythenorth> and I have town-destination cargos which I never bother transporting as they're useless
12:01:56  <andythenorth> just an odd odd game :)
12:04:42  * andythenorth has alternative ideas
12:04:49  <andythenorth> industry production could depend on the amount transported
12:05:08  <andythenorth> if there are 4 cargo types produced, all must be transported
12:05:12  <andythenorth> no transport, no production
12:05:31  <andythenorth> might work?
12:05:59  <andythenorth> I'd need to patch FIRS to reject incoming cargo also
12:07:17  <FLHerne> That would be interesting, but annoying :p
12:07:48  <FLHerne> I'd enjoy playing at least a few games like that
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12:20:22  <andythenorth> I'd need an output stockpile
12:20:29  <andythenorth> capacity maybe 128t per cargo
12:20:37  <andythenorth> that can be done inside newgrf
12:21:02  <andythenorth> no spec change
12:21:16  <andythenorth> but we'd still need GS<->newgrf communication
12:21:22  <andythenorth> only GS can enforce that the cargo is delivered
12:23:40  <andythenorth> hmm maybe I don't care if player wants to just dump the cargo at a station
12:23:48  <andythenorth> not my concern :)
12:28:53  <Borg> andythenorth: played a bit more BSPI?
12:30:18  <andythenorth> a little :)
12:30:38  <andythenorth> I like the approach, I went back to working on FIRS though :P
12:30:52  <andythenorth> it was nice to have something else to look at
12:31:47  <Borg> :)
12:32:25  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh reopened issue #7970: Crash in crash handler - Assertion failed at line 2981 of window.cpp https://git.io/JvsUh
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12:50:32  <milek7> maybe there should be some 'standard' for modular GS?
12:51:01  <milek7> https://pastebin.com/raw/SZ4F2RnR
12:53:59  <andythenorth> o_O
12:54:19  <andythenorth> all GS as libs, and then just really thin wrappers?
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13:18:10  <FLHerne> What does the line `0 * 4 \d8509` at the top of an NFO file mean?
13:19:12  <glx> file length I think
13:20:03  <FLHerne> Hm, ok
13:20:39  <FLHerne> I built both FIRS and OGFX+ Industries with your patch, compared the output to 0.4.5
13:21:01  <FLHerne> With FIRS it's identical except for using prop 13 instead of 0A/B/C
13:22:29  <_dp_> biggest advantage of GS api is that it is somewhat isolated and doesn't incur that much of a maintenance cost
13:22:51  <FLHerne> With OGFX+ I get some weird-looking action2 changes http://www.flherne.uk/files/glx-compat-nfo-ogfxplus.diff
13:22:52  <_dp_> though as a modding mechanisms both newgrfs and gs suck when it comes to altering gameplay mechanics
13:23:12  <_dp_> I rly wish someone explored the WASM options
13:23:33  <FLHerne> (search for "forest_tile_1_animation"
13:23:34  <FLHerne> )
13:24:02  <FLHerne> I doubt those are directly relevant to your current change, but it would be interesting to know what's happening
13:25:55  <Borg> FLHerne: 0 * is sprite identifier... next is number of bytes (4 means dword) and next is number of sprites
13:26:01  * glx was wondering why notepad++ takes so much time to start
13:26:16  <Borg> because its junk
13:26:17  <Borg> ;)
13:26:28  <glx> and I remembered firs.nml was open
13:26:30  <Borg> gvim here start in a blink of an eye ;)
13:31:30  <glx> FLHerne: it's #118 in effect
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13:38:04  <andythenorth> _dp_ write a spec :)
13:38:44  <milek7> what API aspect would wasm address, aside from performance?
13:39:45  <andythenorth> it would allow us to incorporate more coin miners
13:39:59  <_dp_> milek7, I'd start with replacing newgrf stuff
13:41:10  <milek7> I suspect that native->wasm transition cost would be non-negligible
13:41:54  <_dp_> milek7, shouldn't be slower than newgrf callbacks I'd imagine
13:43:39  <milek7> dunno about wasm, but luajit didn't recommend such use, I guess it is similiar
13:43:43  <milek7> http://luajit.org/ext_ffi_semantics.html#callback_performance
13:45:00  <_dp_> milek7, I don't know much about either lua or wasm but having "jit" there already suggest it's entirely different matter
13:45:22  <FLHerne> glx: Confirmed that without #118 it's only the 0A/B/C -> 13 changes
13:49:11  <_dp_> milek7, from what I know wasm is a near-native code sandbox and lua is a embedable scripting language
13:49:15  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on issue #7970: Crash in crash handler - Assertion failed at line 2981 of window.cpp https://git.io/JvsUh
13:50:10  <glx> FLHerne: now the question is "are the animations the same in both versions"
13:54:31  <andythenorth> so is the main problem with newgrf performance?
14:00:16  <_dp_> andythenorth, imo performance is the only thing about newgrf that isn't much of a problem :p
14:00:20  <andythenorth> if so, have we considered moving it to squirrel?
14:02:08  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 opened issue #8168: It takes two actions to move your company HQ by one tile. https://git.io/JfViG
14:02:57  <andythenorth> hmm
14:03:15  <andythenorth> sometimes I wonder if we should turn dorpsgek off for issues
14:03:19  <andythenorth> it's very demoralising
14:09:09  <milek7> after quick unscientific benchmark on https://github.com/wasmerio/wasmer
14:09:38  <milek7> it seems call cost is 160ns
14:09:42  <milek7> so might be ok
14:20:35  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne commented on pull request #152: Codechange: Reintroduce 0.4 syntax for compatibility https://git.io/JfVi7
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14:32:07  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] glx22 commented on pull request #152: Codechange: Reintroduce 0.4 syntax for compatibility https://git.io/JfVPl
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15:38:00  <glx> FLHerne: all these reverse_lookup to get name, while the name is available when the function is called
15:38:25  <FLHerne> glx: Yes, it's silly, I'm trying to fix it
15:38:28  <glx> func(id_d[self.value], self.pos) could simply also pass self.value
15:39:02  <FLHerne> The problem is tracing down every case where some callback gets included in id_dicts...
15:39:12  <glx> then all (info, pos) functions need to be fixed yes
15:39:15  <FLHerne> Miss one, and it crashes at some point
15:39:32  <FLHerne> This is where a statically-compiled language would be nice :p
15:40:04  <FLHerne> (well, C function pointers aren't checked anyway IIRC, but...)
15:43:53  <FLHerne> Hm, if *all* of them take `info, pos` it's easy to find them
15:44:00  <FLHerne> But how do I know that for sure?
15:46:15  <glx> for sure there's parse_var, and func60x() lambda, all the functions in global_constants.const_list
15:47:43  <FLHerne> Yup
15:48:16  <glx> I'm checking all ".reduce(" :)
15:48:48  <FLHerne> I wonder if the right solution is for these big dict things to be instances of a custom class
15:49:30  <FLHerne> So instead of passing around a dict and a special function, we just pass around a dict implementing a custom __getitem__
15:49:43  <FLHerne> Except then `pos` gets lost
15:49:54  <FLHerne> Unless it's passed in
15:53:21  <FLHerne> glx: If you're looking as well, I worry about duplicated effort :p
15:54:08  <glx> well I'm just looking in the code, not coding :)
15:54:31  <glx> it's like a virtual review :)
15:55:31  <glx> based on reduce_constant() and reduce() calls I think the list is complete
15:56:47  <FLHerne> Just the global_constants ones and the two from action2var, you mean?
15:56:59  <glx> yes
15:57:09  <FLHerne> Hm, ok
15:58:35  <glx> there are some calls with [id_dict] but as it's a simple list without function in this case
15:58:52  <glx> else it would be [(id_dict, function)]
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16:08:03  <Speeder> OpenTTD is bieng sad
16:08:27  <Speeder> I mean, I think it is sad when companies can attend to something like less than 1% of the produced cargo
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16:10:27  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison commented on issue #7970: Crash in crash handler - Assertion failed at line 2981 of window.cpp https://git.io/JvsUh
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17:09:38  <FLHerne> glx: I found another one in action2layout :p
17:11:32  <FLHerne> And another
17:12:56  <glx> hidden calls
17:15:49  <glx> I see the one in action2layout, but not the other
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17:39:04  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne opened pull request #153: Codechange: Make id_list callbacks take a 'name' argument https://git.io/JfVHV
17:41:37  <FLHerne> I still don't like the way this works much
17:41:40  <FLHerne> But eh
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18:22:15  * andythenorth beer
18:38:29  <Samu> hi
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20:27:36  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] glx22 approved pull request #153: Codechange: Make id_list callbacks take a 'name' argument https://git.io/JfVbO
20:28:05  <glx> and the patch is quite simple
20:46:22  <FLHerne> glx: It seems silly to pass in both the key and the value, when half the functions are specific to a particular dict anyway
20:46:37  <FLHerne> But none of the alternatives I tried seemed much better
20:47:05  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Chr12t0pher commented on issue #8153: Autoreplace does not report failures due to refittability https://git.io/Jf0oB
20:47:07  <glx> yeah, but at least it removes silly reverse lookups
20:47:38  <FLHerne> glx: Silly bikeshed question, should I s/name/key/ ?
20:48:11  <FLHerne> No, I think not
20:48:22  <glx> it's usually a name
20:48:28  <glx> or an id
20:48:40  <glx> but key feels wrong
20:51:03  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne merged pull request #153: Codechange: Make id_list callbacks take a 'name' argument https://git.io/JfVHV
20:52:53  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on issue #8153: Autoreplace does not report failures due to refittability https://git.io/Jf0oB
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21:08:14  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Chr12t0pher opened pull request #8169: Fix #8153: Report autoreplace failure when new vehicle cannot carry the cargo https://git.io/JfVAv
21:20:02  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #8169: Fix #8153: Report autoreplace failure when new vehicle cannot carry the cargo https://git.io/JfVAK
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21:34:43  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] glx22 updated pull request #152: Codechange: Reintroduce 0.4 syntax for compatibility https://git.io/JfVeZ
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21:40:57  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne commented on pull request #152: Codechange: Reintroduce 0.4 syntax for compatibility https://git.io/JfVxB
21:44:52  <glx> FLHerne: yeah it prints the number
21:45:35  <FLHerne> glx: http://www.flherne.uk/files/prop_replaced_by.diff
21:46:59  <FLHerne> glx: Also, that patch has a different wording for the warning, because I thought your version is a bit vague
21:47:29  <FLHerne> (and because I have a personal dislike of computers pretending to be polite)
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22:00:50  <Gadg8eer> Hey, is planetmaker here?
22:01:21  <planetmaker> that depends. He usually prefers highlights which contain the question ;)
22:01:27  <Gadg8eer> Lol.
22:01:47  <Gadg8eer> OpenGFX Mars repository is broken.
22:01:48  <planetmaker> read my reply in forums?
22:01:57  <Gadg8eer> Oh. Whoops.
22:01:59  <planetmaker> I demonstrated to you that it isn't
22:02:52  <Gadg8eer> Hmm. Someone on the Discord server tried, they were the one who said it's broken.
22:03:20  <planetmaker> "broken" is also a bad statement. Say how. Provide logs that demonstrate in what way
22:04:04  <Gadg8eer> I'll ask him.
22:04:04  <planetmaker> but obviously... either they use some other URL, or failed to clone it for some reason I cannot follow
22:04:43  <planetmaker> and... don't play proxy for someone. Let people talk themselves... it usually helps a lot :)
22:06:46  <planetmaker> anyway... bed time. Good night :)
22:07:01  <Gadg8eer> I told them to get on IRC.
22:07:12  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] glx22 updated pull request #152: Codechange: Reintroduce 0.4 syntax for compatibility https://git.io/JfVeZ
22:09:45  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] glx22 commented on pull request #152: Codechange: Reintroduce 0.4 syntax for compatibility https://git.io/JfVp6
22:16:09  <Gadg8eer> Is it possible to download the source without cloning it?
22:16:46  <Gadg8eer> I tried "Download as Zip" but the files inside were not the source.
22:18:28  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne commented on pull request #152: Codechange: Reintroduce 0.4 syntax for compatibility https://git.io/JfVhv
22:18:47  <FLHerne> glx: ^ actually, two adjacent copy-paste errors :p
22:21:04  <glx> oups :)
22:21:33  <FLHerne> Just rebuilding FIRS/OGFX+ again to be sure nothing randomly broke in the rebase
22:22:00  <FLHerne> I think we might want a way to selectively suppress warnings
22:22:11  <FLHerne> Otherwise everyone will just use -q and miss all of them :p
22:22:28  <glx> well there's --quiet
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22:22:48  <FLHerne> I said that
22:23:19  <glx> but yes it's not selective
22:23:35  * FLHerne puts on todo list
22:25:22  <FLHerne> Old-FIRS/OGFX+ output still looks good :-)
22:26:11  <FLHerne> tbc, I don't think categorized warnings belong in this patchset
22:26:33  <FLHerne> It just makes them more needed
22:27:08  <glx> yeah that's a global issue
22:27:23  <glx> I just added more warnings :)
22:28:54  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] glx22 updated pull request #152: Codechange: Reintroduce 0.4 syntax for compatibility https://git.io/JfVeZ
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22:34:20  <Gadg8eer> So I found out where the source I needed was, but where's the graphics for OpenGFX Mars Houses?
22:35:23  <Gadg8eer> Sorry to bother you so late, planetmaker, I am in a much earlier time zone.
22:37:17  <FLHerne> Gadg8eer: I think probably under https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/opengfx-mars-graphics/repository
22:37:57  <FLHerne> See Buildings/TownBuildings_*
22:39:45  <Gadg8eer> Thanks.
22:40:28  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne approved pull request #152: Codechange: Reintroduce 0.4 syntax for compatibility https://git.io/JfVho
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22:57:51  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] glx22 merged pull request #152: Codechange: Reintroduce 0.4 syntax for compatibility https://git.io/JfVeZ
23:11:45  <supermop_Home> after having a weird dream of some brutalist Barbican or Albertslund style place i kind of feel like drawing one... these things don't really manifest well in the game though
23:12:11  <supermop_Home> i guess it would sort of be like an industry
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