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Log for #openttd on 29th May 2020:
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01:37:15  <Gadg8eer> Does anyone know why FIRS is incompatible with ECS?
01:38:08  <glx> you usually can't use more than one industry grf
01:39:01  <Speeder_> alright, attempting to use FIRS4 was just a time wasting disaster
01:39:04  <Speeder_> :(
01:39:22  <Gadg8eer> I don't have that problem with any of the GRFs I just tried. Is it a holdover from the old days?
01:39:46  <Gadg8eer> Because they added 16 cargos per industry recently.
01:39:49  <Speeder_> glx, you knwo if there is any industry newgrf that uses the new syntax?
01:40:46  <Gadg8eer> And iirc, the number of industries in GRFs was raised too?
01:48:14  <Gadg8eer> Basically, I'm asking if I could test a version of FIRS that doesn't disable itself, see if the issue is still there.
01:57:47  <Gadg8eer> No?
02:00:37  <glx> I think it's because FIRS defines a full economy with complex chains
02:01:34  <glx> FIRS4 compatibility check is more strict than FIRS3
02:04:22  <Eddi|zuHause> conflicting definitions of the same cargo label, and other stuff
02:05:05  <Gadg8eer> Ah. Fair enough.
02:16:41  <Gadg8eer> FIRS is coded in m4nfo, I assume?
02:22:19  <Eddi|zuHause> no, firs is coded in a custom templating framework that outputs something that resembles nml
02:25:34  <Gadg8eer> How easy would it be for me to modify FIRS to function in conjunction with ECS
02:27:30  <Gadg8eer> ?
02:28:00  <Eddi|zuHause> very difficult
02:31:08  <Gadg8eer> Is there another industry grf that you would recommend I try modifying?
02:32:52  <Gadg8eer> Instead, I mean.
02:40:38  <Speeder_> is there are a way to add cargo in a way that vehicle newgrfs will accept it automatically?
02:42:26  <Gadg8eer> Vehicle and industry newgrfs are supposed to use cargo classes so that new cargos are automatically compatible.
02:42:33  <Gadg8eer> So yes.
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02:46:49  <Eddi|zuHause> Gadg8eer: modifying for what purpose?
02:48:01  <Eddi|zuHause> Speeder_: the vehicle set must be prepared properly to derive unknown cargos from their cargo classes. assume that most vehicle grfs won't do this properly
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02:48:24  <Eddi|zuHause> Speeder_: in any case, they won't show correct graphics
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02:49:52  <Gadg8eer> Eddi|zuHause: To remove industries and cargos that aren't compatible with ECS, and leave the rest intact.
02:49:59  <Speeder_> Eddi|zuHause, any suggestion on how I add leather as cargo?
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02:52:27  <Eddi|zuHause> Speeder_: you pick a cargo class according to https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action0Cargos#CargoClasses_.2816.29
02:53:12  <Eddi|zuHause> Gadg8eer: that doesn't make any sense
02:55:57  <Gadg8eer> I want to use ECS and FIRS (or a similar NewGRF) together, even if that means disabling the cargos that conflict.
02:56:16  <Gadg8eer> Eddi|zuHause: Does that make sense?
02:57:34  <Eddi|zuHause> Gadg8eer: about as much as "i want to strip out parts from this airplane so i can fly it while also driving a bus"
02:58:49  <Gadg8eer> That doesn't make sense to me. If ECS and FIRS both use cargo X, then why can't I make a version of FIRS that defaults to the ECS cargos if there's a conflict?
02:59:00  <Gadg8eer> Eddi|zuHause: ?
02:59:50  <Eddi|zuHause> Gadg8eer: both planes and busses have wheels. doesn't mean you can put bus wheels on a plane
03:00:44  <Gadg8eer> WTF? How different is coding industries from coding houses?
03:00:49  <Eddi|zuHause> Gadg8eer: my ethics forbid me to help you make frankensteins monster
03:02:03  <Gadg8eer> I would modify ECS but the license bans any changes from being distributed. If I want to use ECS, I have to Frankenstein anything I add.
03:03:27  <Gadg8eer> Eddi|zuHause: Please don't tell me that it's "wrong" to modify GPL NewGRFs I'm not completely satisfied with.
03:03:39  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe you should try make a completely new grf from scratch
03:04:35  <Gadg8eer> No. I can't sprite that we'll, and tbh I don't want to make a completely new GRF, I want to use the amazing graphics others have done better than I ever could.
03:05:10  <Eddi|zuHause> you can easily reuse sprites from FIRS without inheriting the giant mess of code
03:06:16  <Eddi|zuHause> but ECS and FIRS have so vastly different design philosophies that you'd need to strip out almost everything from FIRS anyway
03:06:34  <Gadg8eer> Eddi|zuHause: Ah. Fair enough. Can I do  so in NML or do I have to code it in NFO or m4nfo?
03:06:57  <Eddi|zuHause> you can do that in NML
03:07:05  <Gadg8eer> Alright. Thank you.
03:22:10  <Gadg8eer> Eddi|zuHause: Got a question you probably want me to ask. What are the differences in design between ECS economy and FIRS economy?
03:22:44  <Speeder_> just realized several of the stuff I want to "add" to OpenTTD already exists, FIRS just removed it
03:23:34  <Speeder_> Eddi|zuHause, suggestions on how to reuse FIRS sprites?
03:23:51  <Gadg8eer> Speeder_: Hmm. What are you trying to make?
03:24:01  <Speeder_> Brazil's economy
03:24:22  <Gadg8eer> Oh! Good luck then. :)
03:24:24  <Speeder_> I was making a map in Brazil but got frustated none of the economies available in any newgrf or vanilla quite match it
03:24:29  <Speeder_> yet... all the parts needed exist
03:24:32  <Speeder_> they are just spread out
03:24:36  <Eddi|zuHause> Speeder_: FIRS develpment is very volatile, sometimes things just get removed on a whim
03:24:46  <Speeder_> Eddi|zuHause, I noticed D:
03:24:59  <Eddi|zuHause> that's what happens if you have a lunatic as lead developer :p
03:24:59  <Speeder_> I attempted to move from FIRS3 to FIRS4 today
03:25:02  <Speeder_> was a massive failure
03:25:08  <Speeder_> I mean, it did compiled
03:25:24  <Speeder_> but then several stuff was outright missing, lots of files with giant red crosses on them, etc...
03:25:43  <Speeder_> I want to use the nml5 features too, and FIRS codebase is not suited for that either
03:25:50  <Speeder_> but I have no idea how to make sprites work right
03:26:46  <Eddi|zuHause> Speeder_: there are two things to a sprite, the file containing the graphics, and a template containing the coordinates. it gets a bit more complicated if tiles are combined from several sprites
03:27:08  <Speeder_> Eddi|zuHause, I think that is the case with FIRS yes
03:27:22  <Speeder_> one of the things I want to use is aluminum plant
03:27:28  <Speeder_> and seemly it is heavily composite
03:27:49  <Eddi|zuHause> a typical industry tile will consist of a ground sprite and one or more building sprites
03:28:49  <Eddi|zuHause> each industry tile is a separate entity
03:29:35  <Speeder_> Eddi|zuHause, you know if there is any easy way to generate a nml file?
03:29:49  <Eddi|zuHause> generate from what?
03:29:52  <Speeder_> FIRS went with python+chameleon, that is a language I didn't like very much.
03:30:02  <Speeder_> from whatever
03:30:23  <Speeder_> I mean, it looks like editing nml file itself is even more insane than trying to edit FIRS
03:31:31  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd suggest first trying to build one from scratch using the tutorial
03:32:40  <Speeder_> what tutorial?
03:33:08  <Eddi|zuHause> any NML tutoral, preferably an industry one, dunno if that exists
03:33:58  <Eddi|zuHause> the point of the exercise is getting a clean, limited to one single industry, GRF.
03:34:40  <Eddi|zuHause> once you got that, "generating" mostly means copying that first industry, and filling out some of the properties differntly
03:37:29  <Speeder_> Eddi|zuHause, I only wanted to know if someone made tools for that already
03:37:43  <Speeder_> if not I will see if I can create the nml files using Lua
03:38:01  <Speeder_> that is a language I am way more confortable with than python (and allows some wackyer stuff)
03:40:30  <Gadg8eer> Speeder_: Where can I download FIRS4?
03:40:36  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, i know someone who was crazy enough to introduce the concept of generating NML files to the world https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/cets/repository/revisions/dabc77b0b378/entry/generate.py
03:40:55  <Speeder_> Gadg8eer, I got it from github, but andy posted an alpha on the forums I believe
03:41:05  <Speeder_> Gadg8eer, I must warn you it is MESSY
03:41:15  <Speeder_> andy started and abandoned economies multiple times
03:41:27  <Speeder_> and seemly is redoing steeltown over and over again, adding and removing cargo again
03:42:34  <Eddi|zuHause> (that's the earliest version of that script... it "evolved" a bit from there)
03:44:15  <Speeder_> I am checking the source of opengfx+ industries
03:44:19  <Speeder_> it uses pnml files
03:44:21  <Speeder_> what are these?
03:44:56  <Eddi|zuHause> pnml is files that must be assembled by a preprocessor first
03:45:08  <Eddi|zuHause> usually gcc
03:45:30  <Eddi|zuHause> that'll resolve all the #include and #define directives
03:45:56  <Eddi|zuHause> it's very common to do that so you don't have one giant nml file
03:46:17  <Speeder_> oooh... hacky. but sounds interesting
03:46:26  <Speeder_> why invent your own preprocessor when you can use one that exists
03:47:22  <Eddi|zuHause> most people who write nml use the standardized openttdcoop makefile, which will automatically call gcc on pnml files
03:47:42  <Speeder_> https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/home/wiki/Using_a_Makefile <<< is this the updated one?
03:47:58  <Speeder_> I wonder what it takes to make it use graphviz too, I like that particular feature of FIRS
03:48:03  <Speeder_> great for debugging the production chains
03:48:31  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know how updated the coop makefile is
03:49:30  <Eddi|zuHause> using graphviz is fairly easy. making it look good is fairly hard
03:49:55  <Speeder_> so where I should get the makefile for nml5?
03:50:29  <Eddi|zuHause> there shouldn't be any relevant changes to the makefile
03:50:59  <Eddi|zuHause> but i'm not the right person to ask about setting up the makefile, i've never done it myself
03:52:10  <Eddi|zuHause> but the basic gist would be that you clone it from the repo, and then make some custom setup with your own grf name and dependencies
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04:25:28  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #8175: Fix #7970: Recursive faults in Windows post-crash due to event loop input https://git.io/Jfodu
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05:10:42  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] telk5093 commented on pull request #8152: Feature: Added Spanish town names https://git.io/JfoFJ
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05:38:56  <andythenorth> oof sleeping fail
05:39:10  <Eddi|zuHause> what is sleep?
05:39:37  <LordAro> andythenorth: same
05:49:07  <andythenorth> everyone in my house woke up at 5am
05:49:10  <andythenorth> dunno why
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07:15:43  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #8152: Feature: Added Spanish town names https://git.io/Jfoxu
07:15:43  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh closed pull request #8152: Feature: Added Spanish town names https://git.io/JfR1h
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08:16:06  * andythenorth redesigns Unsinkable Sam
08:16:14  <andythenorth> good job I never finished it eh :P
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08:44:29  <Samu> hi
09:21:08  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc commented on pull request #8175: Fix #7970: Recursive faults in Windows post-crash due to event loop input https://git.io/JfKeF
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09:31:17  <Samu> hi yexo, how's the pathfinder?
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10:28:17  <andythenorth> hmm
10:28:26  <andythenorth> been playing Catan with my kids
10:28:36  <andythenorth> FIRS is basically Catan?
10:31:01  <Yexo> Samu: Haven't had time to work on it, too busy moving into my new house
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10:39:33  <FLHerne> Gadg8eer: FIRS 4 is https://github.com/andythenorth/firs/tree/v4-release-track
10:40:33  <FLHerne> Gadg8eer: Making it not disable itself next to ECS is trivial, just delete most of incompatible_grfs.py
10:40:49  <FLHerne> (making it do something sane is probably harder)
10:53:24  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Yexo commented on issue #8128: Mexican Stand-off https://git.io/JfCyz
10:53:25  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Yexo closed issue #8128: Mexican Stand-off https://git.io/JfCyz
10:54:36  <andythenorth> seems I should have stayed up for FIRS + ECS amusement?
10:54:42  <andythenorth> or not :P
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11:13:44  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Gadg8eer wants to make it work, and Eddi|zuHause was trying to say it's a bad idea and not to do it
11:13:58  <FLHerne> I mean, it's obviously a bad idea, but why not do it anyway? :D
11:15:31  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, i was debating in my head whether i should interpret his question in the trivial or non-trivial sense of "make it work"
11:15:45  <Eddi|zuHause> and went with the pure non-trivial way
11:16:30  <FLHerne> Eh, even in the less-trivial sense of "make it function but don't worry about balance" I don't think it would be /that/ bad?
11:16:31  <Eddi|zuHause> mostly for the reason that he wants to actually distribute his changes
11:16:45  <FLHerne> Mostly just delete stuff until it stops conflicting :p
11:17:23  <Eddi|zuHause> you probably wouldn't really see the conflicts
11:18:37  <Eddi|zuHause> also, you'd have to reduce it to one single economy or you'd go insane
11:19:47  <Gadg8eer> I've decided against modifying FIRS. If I ever do an industry set, I'll code it from scratch and use FIRS graphics.
11:20:08  <andythenorth> we need a cargo pool :P
11:20:17  <andythenorth> industries only get to use the cargos they've defined :P
11:20:26  * andythenorth is here all week
11:20:27  <Eddi|zuHause> Gadg8eer: yes, i'm fairly sure that's a much saner approach :)
11:20:51  <andythenorth> I am disappointed, FIRS forks might have got into double digits :P
11:22:29  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Why shouldnt ECS coal be the same as FIRS coal?
11:22:55  <Gadg8eer> The problem is that ECS can't be modified. Is it possible to use another NewGRF to override the ECS power plant? Maybe that way I can finally add the electricity lines to the Utility "Truck" Set.
11:23:09  <andythenorth> FLHerne I used to combine PBI with other industry sets, can't remember which
11:23:16  <andythenorth> sometimes you end up with e.g. Plastic twice
11:23:26  <Gadg8eer> I mean just the cargos, not the power plant graphics.
11:25:55  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think you can disable other set's individual industries
11:26:16  <Gadg8eer> I don't want to disable it.
11:26:36  <Gadg8eer> I want to add ELEC to the production of an industry.
11:26:42  <Eddi|zuHause> well, that's what "override" is, you disable the other one and make a new one
11:27:53  <Gadg8eer> Is there a way to add ELEC to the power plant without overriding it?
11:28:14  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think so
11:30:45  <andythenorth> just make your own industry grf?
11:30:48  <andythenorth> probably easiest
11:30:51  <andythenorth> that's what I would do
11:33:07  <Borg> Gadg8eer: you want to move electric by trucks? ;)
11:33:22  <andythenorth> invisible trucks?
11:33:39  <Borg> invisible ultra fast trucks ;)
11:34:24  <Gadg8eer> I want the graphics used in ECS, but those are locked behind a "no modifications" license. I can't sprite anything close to what ECS and FIRS did, so it's either tiptoe around an unchangeable GRF or abandon the best oil wells and coal mines in the community.
11:35:43  <Eddi|zuHause> or you could talk to George and ask him to re-license the sprites
11:35:56  <Gadg8eer> And yes, the trucks would be super fast and mostly invisible.
11:36:10  <Gadg8eer> He's still around?
11:36:35  <Eddi|zuHause> probably
11:37:04  <Gadg8eer> I'll try asking later today. I was up way too late.
11:37:31  <andythenorth> some of the ECS sprites were Zimmlock's anyway
11:37:46  <andythenorth> if you dig through forums history, you might find them
11:37:50  <andythenorth> iirc
11:37:58  <andythenorth> they might be licensed differently
11:38:30  <Eddi|zuHause> well he's not around anymore, i guess?
11:38:35  <andythenorth> not afaik
11:38:50  <Eddi|zuHause> licenses are complicated
11:39:24  <Borg> but they should be simple.. and I dont get ppl who do stuff for free for OSS game.. w/ picky licence.. its just fucking dumb
11:39:46  <Borg> licence should allow to do whatever you want... as far as 1) it stays free 2) opt - credits
11:39:57  <Borg> thats all..
11:40:01  <andythenorth> +1
11:40:13  <andythenorth> but historically that hasn't been the case in TTDPatch land
11:40:34  <andythenorth> it was really OpenTTD that drove GPL
11:40:50  <andythenorth> it's one of the reasons the community fragmented
11:42:37  <LordAro> i suppose it was ludde that picked GPL?
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11:51:51  <Eddi|zuHause> yes-ish, maybe orudge was involved. but what introduced GPL to the newgrf world was much later, when the gpl-driven openttd community started to reimplement the grf specs and started to contribute their own grfs, plus synergies between devzone and bananas
11:53:40  <Eddi|zuHause> that basically created a generational split between the "old guard" and influx of new people
11:56:42  <andythenorth> it seemed to be a lot more about trust and artist's rights in the previous community
11:57:21  <andythenorth> and then unhelpful people like me turn up, churn out endless sprites and dump them all under GPL
11:57:27  <andythenorth> probably devalues artistry
11:57:32  <andythenorth> probably a bit annoying
11:57:48  <Timberwolf> Old-school modding communities always used to be like that (all about the licence terms like "don't upload elsewhere, don't post screenshots without crediting me, don't use this mod if you like POP or RAP music...")
11:58:06  <andythenorth> all seemed like social backscratching
11:58:08  <andythenorth> can be good
11:58:17  <andythenorth> can be just sucking up and unspoken power structures
11:58:44  <andythenorth> wonder how many sprites I've drawn
11:58:54  <andythenorth> probably not as many as Zeph for opengfx :P
12:00:23  <Gadg8eer> I noticed how bad it was. I can understand Michael Blunck and George wanting to protect their hard work, but a lot of the stuff people were protecting was either overprotected or worthless.
12:01:20  * andythenorth has zero fear of reuse 
12:01:23  <Borg> Gadg8eer: did they do that hard work for free?
12:01:35  <Timberwolf> It makes using things like newstats in a multiplayer game almost impossible unless you're a very close group or all super-dedicated players who'd have the grf anyway.
12:01:48  <andythenorth> we know that loss aversion is a classic human fallacy
12:02:25  <Gadg8eer> Simuscape angers me a lot. So many graphics that never got released because they clung to their sinking ship rather than return to tt-foruns.
12:02:43  <andythenorth> I thought tt-forums angered you to?
12:02:47  * andythenorth reads reddit most days
12:03:03  <andythenorth> I didn't ask as tt-forums drama is as old and boring as a sand dune
12:03:12  <Gadg8eer> No. Ufiby angers me, and the forums are on his side.
12:03:28  <Timberwolf> I've gone with GPLv2 or MIT for most of my things (including the tooling)
12:03:40  <andythenorth> the forums don't take a side usually
12:03:51  <andythenorth> it's very rare that Owen intervenes one way or another
12:03:54  <Timberwolf> Felt bad as I did get a PR to Villages a little while ago... for something I was already in the process of developing :(
12:04:20  <Gadg8eer> Ufiby abused a loophole in GPL to not release his GPL v2 source.
12:04:20  <andythenorth> I did try Villages :
12:04:21  <andythenorth> :)
12:04:33  <andythenorth> It amused me that it builds road to industries
12:05:47  <Timberwolf> Ooh, that's not in mine. Which script/AI is that?
12:08:04  <andythenorth> oh maybe that was Migrations?
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12:16:45  <andythenorth> if I keep going with Sam, I think I end up with FISH
12:16:48  <andythenorth> full circle
12:21:04  <Gadg8eer> Someone should make a ship set that uses the same scale as the land vehicles. It would of course mean that only small vessels would be possible to draw.
12:22:33  <Gadg8eer> I read somewhere that a realistically sized container ship in OpenTTD would be the size of a small town.
12:23:06  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, those are massive
12:23:51  <Eddi|zuHause> also, airports would be like 10 times the size if scaled the same as houses
12:24:36  <Eddi|zuHause> then there's issues about length vs. width
12:25:10  <Eddi|zuHause> most things in TTD are too wide for their length
12:28:13  <Timberwolf> TTD has charm in lieu of scale.
12:28:54  <Timberwolf> Ships aren't quite as bad as the mismatch between the internal dimensions of a depot vs its external dimensions.
12:29:22  <Timberwolf> TTD depots are actually vast underground bunkers and what you see is merely the surface entrance.
12:29:38  <Borg> ;)
12:29:48  <Borg> I dont really get all that stuff you guys says.
12:30:03  <Borg> orginal TTD graphics is cute.. I dont see problems in scale.. its.. game.. GAME...
12:30:21  <Borg> also.. old one.. so there was limitations that needed to be addresses.. no problems..
12:30:40  <Borg> if you want to build true scale sim.. start from scratch..
12:30:54  <Eddi|zuHause> they might be stargate entrances
12:31:09  <glx> tunnels are stargates
12:31:51  <Eddi|zuHause> well, at least with tunnels, the vehicles actually stay on the map :p
12:32:49  <andythenorth> Sam ships are close to train scale
12:33:02  <Borg> for example.. I never use any trains sets GRFs... because most of them use larger that 1/2 tile wagons size.. with.. look damn ugly..
12:33:03  <andythenorth> they're not in scale with RVS because RVS are slightly oversized
12:33:12  <Borg> its pity.. because it would be cool to use some other nice train sets..
12:33:25  <Borg> orginal graphics just looks good.. and fits..
12:33:55  <andythenorth> of all the reasons to not like Iron Horse, lack of 1/2 tile is not a valid one :P
12:33:56  <andythenorth> https://firs-test-1.s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/iron-horse/docs/html/trains.html
12:35:08  <andythenorth> and yes, game art is game art
12:35:13  <andythenorth> depots etc never bother me
12:53:03  <Flygon_> <Timberwolf> TTD depots are actually vast underground bunkers and what you see is merely the surface entrance.
12:53:11  <Flygon_> I just assumed they were TARDIS's. :D
12:53:14  *** Flygon_ is now known as Flygon
12:55:35  <andythenorth> definitely tardis
12:55:43  <Eddi|zuHause> hey, now that you mention it, that would be a good GRF :p
12:56:49  <Eddi|zuHause> can we find a suitible backronym for DEPOT? :p
12:57:52  <Flygon> Depostory Enhanced Production of Trains...?
12:57:54  <Flygon> Nah I suck.
12:58:01  <andythenorth> hmm time to fix CHIPS makefile
12:58:06  * andythenorth never learnt how Make works
12:58:46  <Eddi|zuHause> lesson 1) it's "make" (lower case) and "Makefile" (upper case)
12:59:23  <Eddi|zuHause> lesson 2) tab characters are relevant syntax, not just decoration
12:59:47  <glx> andythenorth: basically replace hg with git
12:59:50  <Eddi|zuHause> lesson 3) everything else i have to google again whenever i touch it
13:00:09  <andythenorth> I think I'll drop the coop makefile
13:00:42  <glx> and I tried to look at chips nfo, it's very complex
13:01:08  <andythenorth> the makefile is 9 separate modules and > 20k
13:01:36  <andythenorth> I'll try the FIRS one, it's about 5k in a single script
13:03:00  <andythenorth> how hard can it be? :P
13:03:51  <glx> you just need to fix version detection in Makefile, no need to replace everything
13:04:01  <Eddi|zuHause> the complexity of a makefile comes from the fact that it must work for people other than yourself
13:05:05  <andythenorth> or not
13:05:14  <andythenorth> we no longer have anything like Jenkins for grfs
13:05:28  <andythenorth> I don't do anything to support 3rd parties compiling
13:06:38  * andythenorth wonders how make works
13:06:45  <andythenorth> this is a bi-annual question
13:06:52  <Eddi|zuHause> that's a very heavy bus factor
13:07:04  <andythenorth> if I am under the bus I don't mind, I'm dead :)
13:07:42  <andythenorth> what's good for a grf isn't what's good for OpenTTD
13:07:47  <andythenorth> or nml etc
13:08:15  <andythenorth> trying to support weird 3rd party crap is way beyond my skillset
13:08:38  <Eddi|zuHause> makefile is actually very simple, the basic structure is "target: deps (commmand)*"
13:09:01  <andythenorth> does it build a tree and then recurse or something?
13:09:30  <Eddi|zuHause> for every target, it looks at the deps timestamp, and recurses if outdated, then runs the commands
13:09:58  <glx> but really the only broken stuff in chips Makefile is use of hg
13:10:04  <andythenorth> so it's just comparing A newer than B?
13:10:31  <andythenorth> glx think you could patch it? :)
13:10:46  <andythenorth> I have no idea what that makefile is supposed to do, so I don't know how to test it
13:10:53  <glx> well I worked around it with makefile_dist ;)
13:11:11  <Eddi|zuHause> forach dep: recurse; if dep newer than target: run commands
13:12:08  <glx> but if you want to rewrite makefile maybe switch to cmake ;)
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13:13:34  <Eddi|zuHause> the tricky part of makefiles is getting the deps correctly, preferably without listing them manually
13:16:20  <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: tbh, my experience of the "standard" -coop makefile setup is that it doesn't really help
13:17:13  <FLHerne> Discovering all the variables and setting them appropriately is harder than just editing things :p
13:17:34  <Eddi|zuHause> dunno about it, i use a really outdated version that i didn't set up myself
13:17:43  <andythenorth> even the Iron Horse makefile is really overkill for CHIPS
13:18:09  <andythenorth> it's pretty much a shorter way to type 'grfcodec -e chips.grf'
13:18:14  <Eddi|zuHause> i also made some modifications 6 years ago that i barely understand now
13:18:16  <andythenorth> I could replace all of it with a symlink
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13:40:08  <andythenorth> eh lol :) I forgot CHIPS was CPP templated
13:40:14  <andythenorth> well that's retro
13:58:47  <milek7> tracking dependecies of #include is rather painful
14:16:58  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 opened pull request #8176: Fix #7970: [Win32] Disable event loop on crash to prevent recursive faults https://git.io/JfKt6
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14:20:22  <Speeder_> morning
14:20:35  <Speeder_> andythenorth, who makes FIRS art?
14:20:43  <andythenorth> who doesn't? :)
14:20:48  <andythenorth> mostly me though
14:20:57  <Speeder_> I think I will fork OpenGFX+ instead and use FIRS sprites, if you don't mind :)
14:21:05  <andythenorth> fine by me
14:21:17  <Speeder_> FIRS codebase is getting in the way instead of helping (although the graphviz thing is awesome)
14:21:37  <andythenorth> glx (or anyone, sorry), this nfo target just doesn't work https://github.com/andythenorth/chips/blob/git_makefile/Makefile#L60
14:22:06  <andythenorth> I really don't understand make
14:22:23  <andythenorth> $(NFO_FILE) should now be a dep for $(GRF_FILE)
14:22:49  <andythenorth> and $(NFO_FILE) should cause gcc or clang to build sprites/chips.nfo
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14:25:41  <andythenorth> oh it's the $(_E) "[CPP] $(NFO_FILE)" line that's failing
14:26:27  <andythenorth> it's looking for the actual file
14:26:30  <andythenorth> which is not found :P
14:27:08  <glx> use $@ I think
14:28:41  <andythenorth> thanks
14:28:55  <andythenorth> now I have sprites/chips.nfo but empty
14:28:58  <andythenorth> mystery continues
14:29:05  <andythenorth> CPP compile fails
14:29:19  <glx> ah no there's no NFO_FILE definition
14:29:58  <glx> so $(NFO_FILE) is ""
14:30:27  <glx> uncomment line 38 maybe
14:30:31  <andythenorth> yup
14:30:39  <andythenorth> then fix the missing vars that sed wants
14:38:36  <andythenorth> oh this is lolz /bin/sh: sprites/chips.nfo: Permission denied
14:38:44  <andythenorth> renum :P
14:39:34  <andythenorth> ok I think I quit
14:39:38  <andythenorth> this is way too hard :)
14:40:04  <andythenorth> the nfo generated from the pnfo is not valid
14:40:17  <andythenorth> the problems are piling on top of the problems :D
14:41:04  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #8176: Fix #7970: [Win32] Disable event loop on crash to prevent recursive faults https://git.io/JfKqa
14:41:38  <andythenorth> but if I just use clang to compile the pnfo myself, the nfo is then fine
14:41:52  <andythenorth> I'm using the same command as the Makefile :P
14:42:52  <andythenorth> I guess I should look up what these flags do :) clang -C -E -nostdinc -x c-header - < sprites/nfo/chips.pnfo
14:57:52  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #8176: Fix #7970: [Win32] Disable event loop on crash to prevent recursive faults https://git.io/JfKmg
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15:03:15  * andythenorth deletes all the variables 
15:03:35  <andythenorth> none of it works, burn it with fire
15:05:43  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #8176: Fix #7970: [Win32] Disable event loop on crash to prevent recursive faults https://git.io/JfKmA
15:08:46  <andythenorth> apparently the grfid for CHIPS is \"CHPS\"
15:08:56  <andythenorth> I have no idea how to get that into the nfo manually :D
15:09:03  <andythenorth> the sed substitutions no longer work
15:09:20  <andythenorth> if I paste it in, nforenum errors
15:10:00  <andythenorth> the grf does build fine, everything in it as expected
15:10:13  <andythenorth> only the compile is borked
15:10:26  <FLHerne> andythenorth: You probably don't want the slashes?
15:10:54  <FLHerne> I expect they're escaped to stop the shell eating them at some point during the make process
15:11:04  <andythenorth> I might have to resort to reading docs :P
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15:55:07  <andythenorth> this appears to work, although it might be made of evil https://github.com/andythenorth/chips/blob/git_makefile/Makefile
15:55:23  <andythenorth> gets me make, make clean, make bundle_tar
15:55:37  <andythenorth> I haven't tested it detects deps correctly yet
16:02:07  <andythenorth> deps appear to work
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16:10:38  <andythenorth> I'm not happy about commented out L69 and L71
16:10:57  <andythenorth> couldn't stop my shell trying to expand the filename in the var, instead of treating it as a string
16:11:33  <andythenorth> might just delete them
16:24:30  <andythenorth> cleaned that up
16:36:21  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #8176: Fix #7970: [Win32] Disable event loop on crash to prevent recursive faults https://git.io/JfKG4
16:51:59  <andythenorth> curious how sed works
16:52:02  <andythenorth> never used it
16:52:14  <andythenorth> given this: REPLACE_REPO_VERSION
16:52:25  <andythenorth> in context:     2 * 67	 08 07 "CHPS" "CHIPS Station Set" 00 "CHIPS Station Set {{REPLACE_REPO_VERSION}}" 00
16:52:47  <andythenorth> I have cargo culted this from old makefile
16:52:47  <andythenorth> sed -e "s/{{REPLACE_REPO_VERSION}}/$(REPO_VERSION)/"
16:53:23  <andythenorth> the replacement does not happen
16:53:55  <andythenorth> maybe the order is reversed
16:54:18  <andythenorth> nope
16:55:38  <Yexo> $(REPO_VERSION) should be ${REPO_VERSION} maybe?
16:55:46  <Yexo> Might depend on your shell, but that's how it works for me
16:56:11  <LordAro> Yexo: this is inside a makefile, so $(FOO) has already been replaced
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16:56:24  <Yexo> oh, right, make replaces it
16:56:30  <Yexo> nvm then
16:56:50  <Yexo> andythenorth: needs more context. how/where do you call sed?
16:56:58  <LordAro> andythenorth: by "does not happen", do you mean "{{FOO}}" remains, or that it's replaced with nothing?
16:57:11  <andythenorth> {{FOO}} remains
16:57:21  <LordAro> hmm
16:57:25  <LordAro> try using single quotes?
16:57:50  <LordAro> shell might be trying to expand the {}
16:57:50  <Yexo> are you redirecting input/output correctly? If you are expecting sed to update a file in-place you need the -i flag
16:58:05  <LordAro> also that
16:58:22  <LordAro> cat $< > sed ... > $@
16:58:24  <LordAro> or whatever
16:58:39  <LordAro> except the first '>' should be a '|'
16:58:50  <Yexo> no need for cat
16:58:57  <andythenorth> https://github.com/andythenorth/chips/blob/git_makefile/Makefile#L70
16:59:00  <LordAro> no, but i was keeping it simple
16:59:14  <andythenorth> https://github.com/andythenorth/chips/blob/git_makefile/src/header.pnfo#L36
16:59:28  <LordAro> yeah that's a bit weird
16:59:31  <LordAro> double '>'
16:59:32  <andythenorth> so far I have only cargo-culted from coop makefile, possibly missing something
16:59:36  <Yexo> andythenorth: line 69 redirects all output to $(NFO_FILE), so no output gets redirected to sed
16:59:50  <andythenorth> ok thanks
16:59:52  <Yexo> Which also tries to write to the same file? That's definitely wrong
16:59:53  <andythenorth> fixing
17:00:10  <andythenorth> the file output in L69 is a mistake
17:00:33  <andythenorth> just clown shoes :)
17:00:44  <andythenorth> make install
17:00:56  <andythenorth> oops wrong text box
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17:12:42  <andythenorth> this nearly works
17:12:54  <andythenorth> just trying to remember where OpenTTD gets the display name of the grf from
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17:21:18  <andythenorth> sed is powerful eh
17:21:22  <andythenorth> and slightly odd
17:21:33  <andythenorth> and probably dangerous
17:21:42  <andythenorth> in untrained hands
17:22:38  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 updated pull request #8176: Fix #7970: [Win32] Disable event loop on crash to prevent recursive faults https://git.io/JfKt6
17:23:12  <glx> any tool is dangerous in wrong hands
17:24:02  <andythenorth> spoon injuries
17:24:44  <andythenorth> glx fwiw I think CHIPS should compile now without workarounds, I've pushed master
17:27:10  <glx> hmm seems to fail here, need to check
17:30:15  * andythenorth wonders about GH actions builds of newgrf
17:30:27  <glx> git_info fails
17:30:30  <andythenorth> CI might result in better makefiles
17:30:38  <andythenorth> python?
17:31:07  <glx> well git describe fails
17:31:42  <andythenorth> no annotated tag?
17:31:50  <andythenorth> I had to tag -a test
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19:35:15  <Wolf01> Hmmm, japanese light novels don't help at all to fix my mood :|
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19:49:50  <andythenorth> :D
19:50:07  <andythenorth> I haven't read many japanese novels
19:50:17  <andythenorth> but very few of the ones I read were uplifting
19:50:25  <andythenorth> some were aweseome though
19:59:58  <nielsm> light novels are quite a different style from "real" novels though
20:03:21  * andythenorth googles
20:03:37  <nielsm> light novels are basically anime in novel form
20:03:58  <nielsm> except the barrier to get published is lower than the barrier to making animation
20:06:58  *** mindlesstux666 has joined #openttd
20:07:40  <Borg> ,/quit
20:07:44  <Borg> wooops ;D
20:08:08  *** Borg has quit IRC
20:08:37  <nielsm> is that equivalent to walking into the door frame on the way out?
20:10:01  <FLHerne> yes
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20:23:39  <Wolf01> I should learn to not use the classic snippet tool while there is an UWP remote desktop active... recovering from that nasty situation is a pita
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20:53:47  <Speeder_>  nmlc warning: "src/tiles/gold_mine_tiles.pnml", line 64: "src/gfx/gold_mine/gold_mine.png" at [x: 162, y: 258]: 240 of 1984 pixels (12%) are animated, but ANIM isn't in flags
20:53:50  <Speeder_> what this means?
20:54:02  <Speeder_> this happens when I do a "make" on opengfx+
20:54:36  <nielsm> it uses pixels with a palette index that is animated (colour cycling)
20:55:03  <nielsm> so the warning is that the sprite will have animation but you maybe did not intend that since you didn't put the ANIM flag on the sprite definition in the nml
20:55:05  <Speeder_> what editor people use for the png files?
20:55:08  <Speeder_> that won't break them?
20:55:34  <glx> gimp
20:56:48  <Speeder_> D: I hate GIMP D:
20:57:01  <Speeder_> one of the worst itnerfaces I ever saw
20:57:02  <nielsm> you can also use other editors that support indexed colour mode
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21:01:20  <Speeder_> tried krita.. seemly it doesn't accept it :(
21:05:30  <nielsm> I don't think krita supports indexed modes
21:06:20  <Speeder_> it doesn't :(
21:06:28  <FLHerne> If you're on Windows, I hear Paint.NET is pretty good for that
21:06:28  *** gelignite has quit IRC
21:06:43  <FLHerne> On Linux, Pinta
21:19:06  <Speeder_> anyone here work with pnml?
21:20:03  <glx> it's just nml with c preprocessor directives
21:21:52  <Speeder_> glx, can it output stuff that won't go on the nml itself?
21:22:01  <Speeder_> I wanted to see if I could write some kidn of graphviz documentation on it
21:22:56  <nielsm> sure you can extend it however you want
21:28:55  <supermop_Home> Speeder_ photoshop is easy
21:29:41  <supermop_Home> andythenorth I've mostly just read murakami
21:29:48  <supermop_Home> and then some older stuff
21:30:12  <supermop_Home> never made it through tale of genji yet, though that's not really a 'light' novel
21:46:25  <Speeder_> supermop_Home, I don't own photoshop, aaaand... I don't like it either
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21:46:34  <Speeder_> I miss Macromedia Fireworks D:
21:50:55  <supermop_Home> oh geez
21:51:06  <supermop_Home> blast from the past
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22:01:51  <andythenorth> is bedtime?
22:04:23  <Speeder_> armoured do anything?
22:04:25  <Speeder_> and hazardous?
22:04:42  <andythenorth> no real gameplay effect
22:04:56  <nielsm> they inform which vehicles can carry the cargo types
22:05:04  <nielsm> afaik
22:05:06  <andythenorth> yup
22:05:44  <nielsm> also affects which cargodist setting affects the cargo I think
22:05:52  <supermop_Home> armored is mostly just to make cute trucks with bars on them in the original game
22:06:51  <supermop_Home> nielsm i don't think armored is separate, isn't it just pax/mail/everything else?
22:07:00  <Speeder_> supermop_Home, it is  separate
22:07:06  <Speeder_> hazardous seemly is not separate though
22:07:19  <Speeder_> I don't think anyone even made a newgrf specially for hazardous
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22:07:47  <glx> I'm sure some FIRS cargo are liquid and hazardous
22:07:52  <andythenorth> I did set it on some
22:08:14  <andythenorth> https://firs-test-1.s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/firs-v4-previews/docs/html/code_reference.html#cargos
22:08:24  <andythenorth> not sure if any vehicle sets use hazardous etc
22:08:31  <andythenorth> I don't think I do
22:08:56  <supermop_Home> well vanilla valuables do behave like mail in some climates and like a processed cargo in others, so i guess it makes sense to be able to change it separately
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22:11:34  <Speeder_> what is importance of industry tile accept cargo?
22:12:08  <Speeder_> the amount of cargo accepted changes anything?
22:12:16  <glx> station needs to sum at least 8/8 to deliver
22:12:20  <nielsm> hm that makes me think, have anyone tried adding e.g. the gold mine to temperate and having the banks accept both valuables and gold? and a bank with a supply of gold also has increased valuables production
22:12:39  <Speeder_> nielsm, lol, this is exactly what I am planning in doing right now
22:12:44  <glx> there's a newgrf for that I think nielsm
22:12:45  <supermop_Home> nielsm i think it should be called  mint in that case
22:12:59  <Speeder_> have the bank pnml open and I am wondering what accepted_cargos: [[PASS, 1], [GOLD, 8], [DIAM, 8]]; line does
22:13:20  * Speeder_ steals supermop_Home idea
22:13:27  <supermop_Home> but it doesn't really make sense for two gold melting mints to be constantly shipping stuff back and forth
22:13:32  <nielsm> means it accepts 1/8 passengers, 8/8 gold, 8/8 diam
22:13:46  <Speeder_> so what 1/8 passengers mean?
22:13:48  <Speeder_> that is my question
22:13:51  <nielsm> so just one tile is enough for a station to accept gold
22:14:02  <nielsm> but needs 8 of those tiles covered for the station to accept passengers
22:14:20  <glx> or some houses tiles
22:14:23  <nielsm> (or other tiles that accept passengers, like regular houses)
22:14:24  <supermop_Home> if a house accepts 1/8, you must have 8 houses in the catchment
22:14:24  <Speeder_> wait what?
22:14:49  <supermop_Home> one house by itself is not enough for a station to accept passengers
22:14:57  <Speeder_> so, bank being 1/8 passengers mean will only accept passengers if it has lots of banks?
22:15:03  <supermop_Home> no
22:15:11  <Speeder_> banks+anything else that accept passengers?
22:15:11  <supermop_Home> 1 bank and 7 houses would work
22:15:15  <Speeder_> ah
22:15:25  <glx> passengers is a common accepted cargo in towns
22:15:33  <glx> where banks are located
22:15:44  <supermop_Home> just so long as the total within the station's area adds up to 8 or more
22:16:08  <Speeder_> so lemme see, a station has an area. the game   sums all "accepts" of tiles, and whenever the result is above 8, it accepts 1 of that item?
22:16:14  <andythenorth> just set tiles to 8/8
22:16:21  <andythenorth> anything else is a bug :)
22:16:21  <nielsm> yes
22:16:42  <nielsm> anything about 8/8 accepts for a cargo type within the catchment area of a station means the station accepts the cargo
22:16:43  <Speeder_> accepts "1" or accepts infinite? or that depends on something else?
22:16:48  <nielsm> more than 8/8 has no bonus
22:16:52  <supermop_Home> really the mint should be (gold) -> mint -> (valuables) -> bank
22:18:06  <supermop_Home> though sometimes you need to return the old money to the mint to be destroyed
22:18:32  <supermop_Home> not very often with gold bullion tho….
22:19:01  <supermop_Home> valuables are really not an interesting chain
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22:19:30  <supermop_Home> but as a kid in the 90s playing TTO it seemed exotic to get two towns with banks
22:19:56  <supermop_Home> and get to use the special armored wagons
22:19:57  <Speeder_> supermop_Home, I am trying to put valuables here because  I am making a Brazil-themed NewGRF
22:20:07  <Speeder_> and we had huge amounts of both gold and diamond mining
22:20:15  <Speeder_> and now our biggest companies are all banks
22:20:26  <glx> and forest destruction ;)
22:20:35  <Speeder_> glx, not that much to be honest
22:20:38  <supermop_Home> yes , but i doubt they are sending trainloads of gold back and forth to each other
22:20:55  <Speeder_> saw somne interesting data from NASA today, Brazil uses only 7% of its land for agriculture, while the countries in europe on average use 60% or so
22:21:23  <supermop_Home> most countries biggest companies are banks... but most of the money moving back and forth is not physical
22:21:23  <Speeder_> supermop_Home, well, I intend them to send trainloads of gold to export ports
22:22:41  <supermop_Home> gold is kind of like uranium, in that the mine may be big and impressive, and the product expensive, but very little actual volume moves
22:23:18  <supermop_Home> though of course you can ship new tonka trucks and conveyor belt parts to the mine every month!
22:23:49  <supermop_Home> andythenorth transformers as cargoes?
22:24:07  <supermop_Home> that's what i drew the 'electrical machines' as in my RV set
22:25:10  <nielsm> gn
22:25:15  <andythenorth> gn
22:25:20  <andythenorth> optimus prime
22:25:21  <supermop_Home> see you
22:25:38  <Timberwolf> I forgot Steeltown had cargo types ypu didn't get in Extreme, I ought to draw electrical machines and vehicles one day.
22:26:26  <supermop_Home> Timberwolf i drew a Toyota pick up and a WRX as vehicles cargo, but then never put them in my RV set
22:26:39  <supermop_Home> as i gave up drawing the car carrier
22:27:22  <supermop_Home> so currently all my vehicles are knock down kit cars shipped in crates....
22:28:31  <supermop_Home> https://www.imcdb.org/i750701.jpg
22:29:03  <supermop_Home> surely a giant mech counts as a vehicle
22:30:25  <Timberwolf> I think I reused my ensp sprites as a stopgap.
22:30:59  <supermop_Home> https://myanimeshelf.com/upload/dynamic/2015-02/09/ex1_21.jpg
22:31:18  <supermop_Home> surely this fits on a regular road....
22:31:21  <Timberwolf> In the FIRS+TWRV world, the only private vehicles are excavators.
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22:34:16  <supermop_Home> if i could figure out a way for all of my dirt roads to be 40kmh except for WRXs i would
22:38:04  <andythenorth> Steeltown has gone full WTF cargos
22:38:30  <supermop_Home> drawing pipes was fun
22:39:15  <supermop_Home> i also drew ingots, rolls, and bars for steel, iron, and copper
22:39:26  <supermop_Home> zinc reuses steel bars
22:39:42  <supermop_Home> and there are no iron rolls... but i did draw them
22:39:57  <andythenorth> you know I've split all the steel and iron up?
22:40:18  <supermop_Home> pig iron dark grey, steel light grey
22:40:25  <andythenorth> https://firs-test-1.s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/firs-v4-previews/docs/html/economies.html#steeltown
22:40:36  <andythenorth> steel sheet, steel wire rod, cast iron, steel sections...
22:41:02  <supermop_Home> i already have the different sprites drawn!
22:42:29  <andythenorth> I must sleep :)
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23:06:36  *** Progman has quit IRC
23:54:11  <Speeder_> anyone ever made a "medicine" cargo of any kind?

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