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Log for #openttd on 14th June 2020:
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00:10:11  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #8218: Add: [CMake] Use GNUInstallDirs to allow install paths customisation https://git.io/JfQC2
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00:43:38  <b_jonas> this might be a stupid question, but besides TTD and Railroad Tycoon 2, what other Chris Sawyer game has an open-source game based on it?
00:44:02  <b_jonas> (yes, I know that open railroad tycoon 2 doesn't have a free graphics set)
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00:56:19  <b_jonas> Also, can you recommend me NewGRF that has nice high resolution graphics for varied station tiles and for vacuum trains?
01:04:11  <dwfreed> b_jonas: there's an OpenRCT too, iirc
01:06:18  <dwfreed> perhaps that's what you were referring to, because Chris Sawyer didn't make Railroad Tycoon 2 (which does exist)
01:07:34  <b_jonas> hmm
01:07:41  <b_jonas> but then what is OpenRCT2 ?
01:08:20  <dwfreed> OpenRCT2 is to RollerCoaster Tycoon 2 as OpenTTD is to TTD
01:09:59  <b_jonas> so there's both OpenRCT and OpenRCT2? that's confusing, thanks
01:10:19  <dwfreed> sorry, I was wrong, and OpenRCT2 was what I was thinking of
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01:26:00  <b_jonas> I see
01:26:04  <b_jonas> thanks for the help
01:27:17  <b_jonas> oh, I can filter for the extrazoom tag to find high res graphics
01:27:20  <b_jonas> that'll help
01:37:25  <b_jonas> I downloaded this CZTR set
01:37:33  <b_jonas> I'll see later whether I like it
01:43:27  <b_jonas> wait, since when can we have more than four rail types? yes, I know, I stopped playing this game ages ago
01:47:16  <b_jonas> how do I activate a base graphics set that I downloaded? they don't appear in the NewGRF settings
01:52:02  <b_jonas> ah, it's in the "Game options" dialog
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02:43:21  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Nik-mmzd commented on pull request #8218: Add: [CMake] Use GNUInstallDirs to allow install paths customisation https://git.io/JfQuD
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04:34:30  <supermop_Home> did large logo class 66s exist?
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06:11:05  <andythenorth> yo
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06:49:43  <andythenorth> urgh, Iron Horse compile is sooooo slow
06:54:13  <andythenorth> hmm grfcodec -n is 40% slower than without -n
06:54:17  <andythenorth> and the grf is 3MB bigger
06:54:22  * andythenorth drops -n
06:58:53  <dwfreed> andythenorth: what does -n do?
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06:59:23  <andythenorth> "Try both compression algorithms and choose the most efficient"
06:59:38  <andythenorth> it's expected that it's slower
06:59:48  <dwfreed> but not expected that it's bigger
06:59:50  <andythenorth> whether it should be larger depends on definition of 'efficient'
07:00:08  <andythenorth> I don't know if it's optimising write time, file size or read time
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08:12:42  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 opened issue #8221: No error message subtitle for if no bridge types available for target length < max bridge length https://git.io/JfQrI
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09:01:26  <TrueBrain> continueing the guessing game: https://pasteboard.co/Jd1BhP9c.png :D
09:01:50  <TrueBrain> not the same spritemap as yesterday
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09:14:49  <TrueBrain> https://pasteboard.co/Jd1GHMa.png <- same image as yesterday, but properly decoded this time :P
09:14:54  <TrueBrain> no ghosts andythenorth , I am sorry :)
09:18:43  <andythenorth> still bomberman
09:19:16  <TrueBrain> I wonder if I can load bomberman now ...
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09:21:37  <TrueBrain> no, Bomberman uses a layout I haven't implemented yet, bah
09:22:23  <andythenorth> you reimplementing MAME?
09:22:29  <andythenorth> inside OpenTTD?
09:23:05  <TrueBrain> MAME? :P
09:24:26  <TrueBrain> ah, MAME
09:24:27  <TrueBrain> no
09:48:00  <Eddi|zuHause> that properly decoded image makes it sorta recognizable :)
09:48:37  <TrueBrain> if you know how to read tilemaps, yes :)
09:50:40  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, i've never played that game
09:53:26  <TrueBrain> me neither, not really anyway
09:53:31  <TrueBrain> just really curious how they did it :)
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10:53:57  <b_jonas> I wish cost build estimates would work while paused
10:55:34  <frosch123> it doesn't?
10:55:44  <frosch123> that sounds like a 2 line change if it doesnt
10:57:06  <b_jonas> frosch123: it might be slightly more than two lines. cost estimate doesn't work when you try to estimate something you can't build, and you can't build while paused
10:57:27  <frosch123> there is a setting to allow building while paused
10:57:43  <b_jonas> yeah, I know
10:57:56  <b_jonas> I might actually turn that on
10:58:16  <andythenorth> also industry funding cost estimate
10:58:26  <andythenorth> should be shown in fund menu
10:58:56  <b_jonas> Is there a NewGRF whose only effect is to lower the cost of reserving land so it's not more expensive than building railways?
10:59:42  <frosch123> try the basecost mod grf
10:59:56  <frosch123> there are about a dozen of those, not sure which is the best
11:00:15  <frosch123> but there is one which allows adjusting all costs via grf paramters
11:00:43  <Wolf01> It's always funny when "find all references" doesn't work at all... also "search in files" doesn't work at all
11:01:35  <Wolf01> Also cmake menu gets disabled after a while
11:02:03  <b_jonas> frosch123: thanks
11:03:26  <frosch123> b_jonas: my estimate was factor 2 off
11:03:30  <frosch123> it's a one line change
11:03:33  <argoneus> hi, say
11:03:43  <argoneus> https://wiki.openttd.org/File:High_throughput_Ro-ro_station.png with this design, if you have block signals on both sides, can there be locks?
11:07:47  <b_jonas> frosch123: nice! thank you
11:07:57  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 opened pull request #8222: Change: Allow command cost-estimation while paused. https://git.io/JfQih
11:08:03  <b_jonas> there was somewhere on the wiki that explains how the implicit signals of railway stations work. where is that?
11:09:00  <frosch123> look for "pbs"
11:09:15  <frosch123> no idea whether there are explainations or just examples
11:09:39  <frosch123> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kcgylFM3y4 <- otherwise, that is the best signal tutorial known to date
11:10:33  <b_jonas> I don't mean a general explanation of signals, but how the ones built into statoins work
11:10:56  <frosch123> i guess the answer is, there are none
11:11:17  <frosch123> path reservations end at signals, but they do not end at stations, so there are none
11:11:41  <b_jonas> I might be misremembering something then
11:11:45  <b_jonas> thanks
11:13:55  <LordAro> it's a common misconception
11:20:50  <Wolf01> VS2017 freezed by searching for a function in code... good.
11:21:07  <Wolf01> I won't get anything done even today.
11:21:37  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #8222: Change: Allow command cost-estimation while paused. https://git.io/JfQPY
11:21:55  <argoneus> pbs feels like such cheating
11:22:07  <argoneus> no matter how huge the station is just plop a signal in there and it will fix itself
11:22:20  <argoneus> and it even works better than block signals
11:22:20  <argoneus> sad
11:23:54  <andythenorth> it's not mandatory
11:24:05  <argoneus> it kinda is for some designs apparently
11:24:12  <argoneus> like stations where trains can either go through or turn around
11:24:19  <argoneus> with block signals wiki says the trains can get locked
11:24:21  <andythenorth> I think it's one of the best things ever added to OpenTTD
11:24:32  <andythenorth> many 'improvements' aren't
11:24:36  <andythenorth> but PBS is .... rad
11:24:51  <argoneus> it just makes me wonder if there's any actual use for block signals
11:24:57  <argoneus> other than micro optimizing prioritization
11:25:01  <EER> PBS is pretty great, although I sometimes miss the more predictable nature of presignals :)
11:25:48  <Wolf01> <argoneus> no matter how huge the station is just plop a signal in there and it will fix itself <- it feels like that but it really isn't, try it with a lot of traffic and you get back to presignals in no time
11:27:33  <argoneus> is there a station usecase where block signals are better?
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11:30:06  <andythenorth> no
11:36:14  <argoneus> then why would you use presignals
11:36:35  <Wolf01> Because the same is valid for pbs
11:37:47  <argoneus> what do you mean
11:40:40  <Wolf01> Because every usecase has its own logic, there isn't one valid for everything
11:40:45  <argoneus> okay but
11:40:49  <argoneus> what is the usecase for block panels
11:40:53  <argoneus> block signals*
11:40:58  <andythenorth> there isn't one
11:41:00  <andythenorth> they just got added
11:41:04  <andythenorth> mostly the game isn't designed
11:41:09  <andythenorth> it's just programmed
11:41:24  <andythenorth> most if it is 'because I can'
11:41:54  <michi_cc> The usecase for block signals is loading old savegames.
11:42:14  <argoneus> so I can use them if they look pretty but that's about it
11:42:26  <argoneus> and for some uses like stations where trains enter/exit on both sides they're detrimental
11:42:32  <argoneus> because they can lead to deadlocks
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11:45:32  <LordAro> they're simpler computationally
11:45:44  <LordAro> not that you'd ever get close to it making a difference
11:46:15  <frosch123> i thought they are more expensive?
11:46:58  <michi_cc> Path signals are only computational more expensive in one single case. That case is waiting at a red signal.
11:48:18  <frosch123> and at junctions there are like half as many pbs signals than there would be normal ones
11:48:21  <frosch123> if not even less
11:49:12  <michi_cc> In the junction itself pbs signals are even a lot more efficient than block signals.
11:50:04  <michi_cc> With pbs, the pathfinder will compute the path through the junctions just once, will with block signals, the pathfinder will be called for each single tile with a switch.
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12:12:44  <b_jonas> stupid city, boxes itself in completely so it can't build
12:22:48  <argoneus> what does it mean if GL landscape ticks times are a bit higher?
12:46:14  <nielsm> can be lots of things
12:46:17  <nielsm> see https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/blob/master/docs/logging_and_performance_metrics.md
12:46:22  <nielsm> "world ticks"
12:49:21  <argoneus> also uh
12:49:24  <argoneus> do towns ever become cities?
12:49:29  <nielsm> no
12:49:32  <argoneus> fug
12:49:41  <nielsm> city is a status decided when the town is created
12:49:51  <nielsm> and just means it grows faster
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13:09:33  <b_jonas> right, that was a hidden luck mechanic in TTD, so you had to try to take passengers into towns to see which one grows fast
13:09:54  <b_jonas> OpenTTD makes it easier by revealing which ones are cities, and then you can just develop those and buy land for a station in them early
13:12:25  <nielsm> hmm it could be perhaps that the "city" status should have an additional bit, whether it has been revealed or not
13:12:44  <nielsm> or maybe not show it for towns smaller than 1000 pop or such
13:20:29  <frosch123> pretty sure ttd did not have that mechanic
13:25:57  <argoneus> thanks for the help
13:26:02  <argoneus> now I'm curious about one more thing
13:26:13  <argoneus> in FIRS arctic there's hotels which require food, but cities also require food for growth
13:26:22  <argoneus> what happens if I deliver to both at the same time
13:26:24  <argoneus> does it get split or
13:26:37  <frosch123> no, it all goes to the town
13:26:48  <argoneus> so the hotel doesn't get anything/
13:26:51  <frosch123> the industry is only to make acceptance more robust
13:27:00  <frosch123> argoneus: it's like taxes
13:27:09  <nielsm> the town food requirement is just that food is unloaded and paid for at a station within the town bounds
13:27:15  <argoneus> ohhh
13:27:37  <argoneus> doesn't that mean it goes to the hotel then?
13:27:41  <argoneus> or is the hotel part of the city basicall
13:27:42  <argoneus> y
13:27:54  <nielsm> which is also why water towers in deserts are industries
13:28:06  <argoneus> so it's just a quality of life thing
13:28:28  <nielsm> yes the hotel gets it as cargo it can use for industry purposes, and it counts as food delivery for the town at the same time
13:29:57  <argoneus> so the hotel supplying passengers
13:30:01  <argoneus> is the same as the city supplying them
13:30:14  <nielsm> I think so yes
13:30:54  <nielsm> well it doesn't count towards the town passenger production
13:31:05  <nielsm> that only counts production from town buildings
13:31:28  <argoneus> oh
13:31:39  <argoneus> im kind of confused what the hotels are for then
13:31:51  <nielsm> making money :)
13:33:41  <argoneus> oh wait I think I get it now
13:33:46  <argoneus> the town buildings each produce some passengers
13:33:57  <argoneus> but so does the hotel so for convenience it's like a super-town-building
13:34:03  <argoneus> so I either slap my station in the city or near the hotel
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14:21:10  <argoneus> hmm
14:21:16  <argoneus> is there a way to naturally space out passenger trains
14:21:22  <argoneus> without timetabling because that never really works for me
14:35:26  <frosch123> remove signals
14:35:39  <frosch123> longer distances between signals
14:38:55  <argoneus> good point
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14:55:11  <b_jonas> also full load at the largest stations
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17:25:20  <michi_cc> glx: Got a CMake question. I've opened and built OTTD using the VS open folder method, which works great.
17:26:14  <glx> just ask :)
17:26:25  <michi_cc> glx: Now, when I run it, it is mostly working fine, but I've noticed that the AI/GS compat files are not copied into output exe directory. Should they be there or am I missing something when duing the build.
17:27:01  <glx> they are not copied, but openttd run fine inside VS
17:27:45  <michi_cc> Unless you try to check something with an AI that's written for an oder API version.
17:28:20  <glx> hmm working directory is bin so it should be ok
17:28:58  <frosch123> oh, i switched to starting it from /build
17:29:28  <frosch123> so i also expected the compat stuff there
17:30:07  <glx> but yeah from outside vs it's not ideal
17:34:04  <michi_cc> I have run it from inside VS, but apparently it is starting in out/build/x64-Debug/ (which is the exe-dir) and not bin/ for me. I've been starting the target openttd.exe, but there is also an openttd.exe (installed) target. Am I supposed to use that?
17:38:32  <glx> it should start out/build/x64-Debug, but run it in bin, we set VS_DEBUGGER_WORKING_DIRECTORY for that
17:38:40  <michi_cc> Okay, I can manually chose bin as working dir by modifying launch.vs.json.
17:39:03  <glx> hmm but wybe this only work for VS project
17:39:08  <glx> *maybe
17:39:16  <glx> I should test more
17:39:28  <michi_cc> glx: I found a reference to that (https://stackoverflow.com/questions/41864259/how-to-set-working-directory-for-visual-studio-2017-rc-cmake-project), but as stated there Open Dir uses ninja to build which doesn't care about that environment var.
17:40:29  <michi_cc> As far as I can tell, VS_DEBUGGER_WORKING_DIRECTORY is only used when generating VS projects respectively building with MSBuild, but VS2019 defaults to use ninja.
17:40:42  <glx> yes that's what the doc implies
17:43:24  <michi_cc> I tried generating the project files some time ago, and while that way is working flawlessly, the resulting openttd project has all source files together in the top-level dir and disregards any grouping/sub-dirs. I don't really like that clutter.
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17:57:36  <glx> https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/cpp/build/launch-vs-schema-reference-cpp?view=vs-2019 <-- "currentDir": "bin" works
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18:01:49  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8217: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP https://git.io/JfQbF
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18:58:15  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc commented on pull request #8217: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP https://git.io/JfQxq
19:05:23  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ConnCraft commented on issue #7838: Crash in VehicleGroupWindow::GroupNameSorter https://git.io/JeKL5
19:07:13  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on issue #7838: Crash in VehicleGroupWindow::GroupNameSorter https://git.io/JeKL5
19:28:11  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison commented on pull request #8217: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP https://git.io/JfQpO
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19:33:04  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ConnCraft commented on issue #7838: Crash in VehicleGroupWindow::GroupNameSorter https://git.io/JeKL5
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21:01:20  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8217: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP https://git.io/Jf7eN
21:03:48  <supermop_Home> yo andy
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21:13:42  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison commented on pull request #8217: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP https://git.io/Jf7v3
21:13:48  <Samu> hi
21:14:42  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ConnCraft commented on issue #7838: Crash in VehicleGroupWindow::GroupNameSorter https://git.io/JeKL5
21:14:43  <supermop_Home> hi Samu
21:16:30  <supermop_Home> man why are there so few cdist servers?
21:16:55  <supermop_Home> i find the game dreadfully boring without cargodist
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21:33:53  <supermop_Home> is there a good non scammy way to set up a server with some kind of service?
21:34:49  <milek7> set up some cheap vps
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21:38:58  <supermop_Home> ok this japan server is not running at all for me
21:42:07  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc commented on pull request #8217: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP https://git.io/Jf7fc
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22:46:28  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8217: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP https://git.io/Jf7UB
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