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Log for #openttd on 28th June 2020:
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03:06:30  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8224: Cleanup: Remove redundant implementation of TakeScreenshot https://git.io/JJepq
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04:01:20  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz closed pull request #8214: WIP: Refactor gfx engine's dirty block system https://git.io/JfS3n
04:01:20  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8214: WIP: Refactor gfx engine's dirty block system https://git.io/JJeh8
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06:32:35  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #8236: Fix #7772: Show destination on mouseover when vehicle stopped (and not in depot) https://git.io/JJvvh
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07:02:22  <andythenorth> moin
07:26:12  <TrueBrain> hello andythenorth  :)
07:28:17  <TrueBrain> hmm .. so only a few more services to move from self-managed to AWS .. mostly maser-server, eints and wiki .. all other sites are mostly simple redirects. That is good :)
07:28:33  <TrueBrain> and a ton of things like: svn-archive, flyspray, etc .. do we want to keep them available ..
07:28:53  <TrueBrain> owh, and security.openttd.org needs its own static website ofc .. but that should be easy .. clone www.openttd.org, and modify it a tiny bit
07:29:19  <TrueBrain> the most difficult one is going to be email
07:34:23  <andythenorth> gmail :P
07:34:32  <TrueBrain> pretty expensive tbh .. like all others
07:35:14  <andythenorth> £4 / user / month
07:35:18  <andythenorth> yes, expensive
07:35:28  <andythenorth> lots of things we don't need
07:36:29  <andythenorth> hmm all the 'buy it done' email hosts seem to be $ / user / month
07:37:00  <TrueBrain> I think I can get a single o365 exchange online plan, add openttd.org to it, and add forwards on it
07:37:08  <TrueBrain> I will have to test that out tbh
07:37:50  <TrueBrain> the only issue with that is, that emailing FROM an openttd.org account is difficult (SPF and all)
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07:45:52  <dP> Yandex.Mail for domain seems to still be free
07:46:01  <andythenorth> how much email needs to be sent? :)
07:46:09  <TrueBrain> info@ for one
07:47:38  <TrueBrain> dP: never heard of Yandex; any good?
07:48:01  <dP> TrueBrain, it's basically a russian google
07:48:12  <TrueBrain> that .. doesn't sound like a good solution :P
07:48:50  <nielsm> yandex mail has a non-zero risk of being blocked arbitrarily
07:49:03  <nielsm> at least a few years ago it was a very common source of spam
07:49:51  <dP> TrueBrain, it's a big company with good products, just, well, russian :p
07:50:29  <andythenorth> like Kaspersy?
07:50:42  <andythenorth> :P
07:50:53  <TrueBrain> anyway, I can only find you can create a single account; we would need multiple on the same domain
07:51:14  <andythenorth> Rackspace have  / user
07:51:25  <andythenorth> you can do it with Mailgun, but it's not really what Mailgun is for
07:51:53  <andythenorth> time vs. money :P
07:55:33  <nielsm> www.mxhotel.dk is rather cheap mail hosting, the provider is reliable
07:55:44  <nielsm> I'm not sure they have terms in english though
07:56:01  <nielsm> I know one of the server techs at the company tho
07:56:58  <TrueBrain> that website doesn't look inviting :D
07:56:59  <TrueBrain> ghehe
07:57:05  <nielsm> very oldschool
07:57:54  <nielsm> I can maybe ask if they want to sponsor too... how many addresses is needed?
07:57:56  <TrueBrain> mainly, I would like to solve three things: 1) move mail somewhere we don't have to maintain it, 2) allow a developer to send mail on behave of <hisname>@openttd.org and info@openttd.org, 3) have a decent spam protection
07:58:22  <TrueBrain> as many developers there are .. which changes over time :)
07:58:46  <TrueBrain> most mail providers only have that you can make 1 account, and not administrator a domain of accounts
07:59:01  <andythenorth> gmail :P
07:59:07  <andythenorth> then we can make spreadsheets too
07:59:13  <andythenorth> for all of our monthly meetings
07:59:27  <TrueBrain> well, cost is a factor,for some silly reason :P
07:59:33  <andythenorth> and we could do video calls, using whichever version of Hangouts doesn't work this month
07:59:42  <nielsm> yeah mxhotel.dk pricing is you can have as many addresses/aliases per domain as you want, but pay 0.05 DKK/day per
08:00:10  <TrueBrain> I guess 3) is the biggest question with a random mail hoster ;)
08:00:15  * andythenorth should do something useful, instead of talking nonsense
08:00:19  * andythenorth -> newgrfs
08:00:29  <TrueBrain> this is what I like about gmail / microsoft365, etc .. their hive-anti-spam is just better :P
08:00:46  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: same thing different subject :P
08:01:05  <andythenorth> oof :P
08:01:29  <TrueBrain> nielsm: but yeah, as long as developers can have their own mailbox with their own password, I am what-ever :)
08:02:10  <nielsm> e.g 15 addresses with 1000 MB shared storage space would be around €80/year
08:02:40  <nielsm> make that €90
08:02:51  <TrueBrain> well, that would be the cheapest so far :P
08:03:15  <dP> TrueBrain, you can have 1000 mailboxes per domain on yandex for free, or so they say: https://connect.yandex.ru/pdd_old/?ncrnd=3864#!faq/q1
08:03:33  <TrueBrain> I do not speak russian, it turns out
08:04:04  <dP> TrueBrain, does it show link in russian? there is a language switch in the bottom
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08:04:20  <TrueBrain> wow, that is hidden :P
08:04:34  <Samu> hi
08:04:46  <dP> I'm more surprised it didn't link english version
08:04:57  <TrueBrain> silly cookie-based language switches or something
08:04:59  <TrueBrain> bad for caching
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08:14:32  <TrueBrain> meh; WSL2 doesn't forward UDP it seems .. sad
08:15:30  <Wolf01> Meh
08:17:41  <Wolf01> I'm still waiting for an integrated x server so I don't need to use vcxsrv
08:18:29  <TrueBrain> but it is so much faster .... holy crap
08:20:01  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrevorShelton commented on issue #8162: Converting town-owned road returns ambiguous/unhelpful error message https://git.io/Jfu9j
08:22:44  <TrueBrain> lol @ dedicated server .. I didn't compile zlib, because, fuck zlib
08:22:50  <TrueBrain> but ... now I cannot use the dedicated server
08:22:52  <TrueBrain> despite me using -g
08:22:54  <TrueBrain> wuth?
08:23:01  <TrueBrain> dbg: [sl] Game Load Failed
08:23:01  <TrueBrain> Internal error: Loader for 'zlib' is not available.
08:23:07  <TrueBrain> but but .. I DONT WANT YOU TO LOAD ANYTHING :(
08:23:37  <TrueBrain> also no clue what it is trying to load tbh :P
08:23:38  <dP> TrueBrain, yeah, it may still want to load a titlegame... few times...
08:23:54  <TrueBrain> there is no titlegame in my folder ..
08:24:31  <TrueBrain> ah, it was in another folder
08:24:34  <TrueBrain> removing it doesn't work either
08:24:35  <TrueBrain> bah :P
08:24:40  <LordAro> mm, it still uses the titlegame, even with -g
08:24:42  <LordAro> it's annoying
08:24:43  <TrueBrain> dbg: [sl] Game Load Failed
08:24:43  <TrueBrain> File not readable
08:24:47  <TrueBrain> it is a bug, I would say :)
08:27:26  <Wolf01> Btw WSL2 will be installed with 2004 or?
08:27:36  <TrueBrain> yes
08:28:28  <nielsm> create your own titlegame, uncompressed
08:28:47  <TrueBrain> nielsm: which is a bit of a chicken/egg issue :D
08:28:53  <TrueBrain> to create a titlegame, I need to be able to start the game ;)
08:30:12  <TrueBrain> but I simply fixed it by installing zlib1g-dev ..
08:30:27  <TrueBrain> was just a bit weird, that it doesn't stop compiling when you don't have it, but absolutely refuses to run in any shape or form without it :D
08:31:19  <nielsm> at least non-dedicated will start even with title game load fails, it just makes an empty 64x64 flat map
08:31:32  <TrueBrain> a dedicated server should do that too! :o
08:31:49  <TrueBrain> it possibly does, and that I fucked up something else btw
08:31:50  <nielsm> I actually thought dedicated always started a new game on startup too
08:31:54  <dP> dedicated shouldn't even try loading titlegame :p
08:31:59  <nielsm> never even attempting to load the title game
08:32:05  <TrueBrain> that I know for sure, it does :)
08:32:38  <TrueBrain> anyway, I have a dedicated server running now that advertises itself to my new masterserver .. I am all happy :)
08:41:46  <andythenorth> \o/
08:41:50  <andythenorth> emoji
08:41:54  <Wolf01> :D
08:56:17  <TrueBrain> Server 0x5ef85b0bf10b00 with 127.0.0.1:3979 online (0 players)
08:56:17  <TrueBrain> Server 0x5ef85b0bf10b00 with ::1:3979 online (0 players)
08:56:27  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrevorShelton opened pull request #8247: Change #8162: Conversion of Town Road, Impr. Error https://git.io/JJvUx
09:10:26  <TrueBrain> https://github.com/TrueBrain/OpenTTD-MasterServer/tree/initial_version <- it is getting shape. Three things left: implement updater (to check if servers are still there), implement "get-server-list", and cleanup / document everything
09:14:17  <dP> I almost want to make my own master server
09:16:16  <dP> kind of have all the code for it already anyway, just needs to be put together xD
09:16:48  <TrueBrain> seems you are a bit late to that party ;)
09:17:30  <TrueBrain> I already put all the code together ;) It just needs some logic to work properly now :)
09:17:31  <dP> TrueBrain, does your master server has anti-spam? :p
09:17:33  <TrueBrain> well, it mostly does already ;)
09:17:39  <TrueBrain> does it need anti-spam? :)
09:19:18  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #8247: Change #8162: Conversion of Town Road, Impr. Error https://git.io/JJvTB
09:19:33  <dP> TrueBrain, yes :P https://i.imgur.com/3TfY2Bv.png
09:20:04  <TrueBrain> first I hear about this ... why did nobody tell me?
09:20:19  <LordAro> "GetNameOfOwner" is a poorly named function...
09:20:20  <TrueBrain> who got in a competition there ..
09:20:46  <LordAro> ban the whole lot
09:21:35  <TrueBrain> I was thinking the same; but the elitegameservers.net is annoying, as it is not from a single IP :P
09:22:08  <dP> TrueBrain, just filter by a substring :p
09:22:08  <TrueBrain> I am still surprised how many OpenTTD server there are :P
09:22:38  <TrueBrain> current server is in C++ .. getting that deployed will take more effort I consider worth it ;)
09:22:45  <LordAro> ah, cloudflare IPs
09:22:54  <LordAro> will need domain blocking then, i guess
09:23:55  <TrueBrain> cloudflare? What are you looking up there?
09:24:23  <TrueBrain> ugh, these IPs are from all over the place
09:24:33  <LordAro> dig elitegameservers.net -> 104.26.6.166 -> whois -> cloudflaire
09:24:35  <LordAro> -i
09:24:38  <LordAro> though that could just be the website
09:24:43  <TrueBrain> yeah .... but that is not the IPs I was talking about :)
09:24:49  <TrueBrain> not sure what you wanted to do with that lookup :)
09:24:54  <LordAro> even their website has 3 separate A records
09:25:13  <TrueBrain> they have servers at LeaseWeb, OVH-uk, OVH-de
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09:25:30  <TrueBrain> ugh, why do people insist in being scum
09:25:43  <TrueBrain> mostly I am annoyed nobody told me about this :P
09:26:28  <TrueBrain> and I am a bit amazed someone took the effort to setup servers (which consumes RAM) to counter this
09:26:48  <dP> well, it was discussed in a chat several times already
09:26:52  <TrueBrain> dP: what were your plans to counter this?
09:27:15  <TrueBrain> dP: I am not that kind of person that reads the backlog :P If I am not highlighted, it could not possibly have been important :D
09:27:59  <dP> TrueBrain, for master server I was more thinking of a way to get all servers it one list so that client doesn't have to query them
09:28:17  <dP> TrueBrain, and for spam I guess adding a flag there won't be a problem
09:28:32  <dP> or even an uint8 category and filter in the client
09:28:44  <dP> with smth like "not spam" as default
09:29:02  <TrueBrain> manually marking things as spam is not really a battle I am willing to fight :P
09:29:08  <dP> like all servers/not spam/big communities
09:29:32  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrevorShelton commented on pull request #8247: Fix #8162: Improve Error Message When Converting Town Owned Road https://git.io/JJvT1
09:29:55  <TrueBrain> is the OpenTTD protocol patch in the game already? That openttd:// allows you to join a game? :D
09:30:04  <nielsm> no
09:30:25  <dP> TrueBrain, idk, manually blacklisting one substring in 15 years doesn't sound that bad :p
09:30:29  <TrueBrain> dP: and you are talking about revamping the master-server protocol, which is a completely different thing ;)
09:30:41  <TrueBrain> dP: people like this will find a way around it in minutes
09:31:11  <dP> TrueBrain, they didn't even bother to update servers to 1.10.2 :p
09:31:54  <dP> TrueBrain, I was thinking of just adding a separate tcp request somewhere instead of tinkering with protocol
09:32:29  <TrueBrain> that is still changing the protocol ;)
09:33:04  <TrueBrain> but yeah, the biggest bottleneck is the UDP part of this protocol
09:33:16  <TrueBrain> huge limitation on what is possible :)
09:33:23  <dP> TrueBrain, depends on what you consider to be a protocol
09:33:35  <TrueBrain> the master-server protocol in general ;)
09:33:38  <TrueBrain> just the bigger picture
09:33:40  <dP> TrueBrain, actually, even httping a file from the website will do the job
09:33:41  <TrueBrain> UDP is just an implementation detail ;)
09:34:44  <dP> TrueBrain, btw, I'm not saying it's a good solution for official master server
09:35:03  <TrueBrain> and I am not saying it is not :P
09:35:18  <dP> xD
09:35:21  <TrueBrain> when OpenTTD was smaller, this was fine
09:35:28  <TrueBrain> but the amount of UDP traffic needed these days, is just a bit insane
09:35:35  <TrueBrain> and you see that it is not always working as it should
09:36:00  <TrueBrain> but, with the content-server too, we already established that switching to HTTPS would be the best approach
09:36:05  <TrueBrain> sadly .... OpenTTD has no S support :(
09:37:00  <TrueBrain> one of my main problems with the current implementation: the idea was to know the server-owner had setup his firewall correctly, that a server advertised could also be joined. but .. it only checks UDP
09:37:05  <LordAro> TrueBrain: the server would have to support it first, i would think?
09:37:30  <TrueBrain> LordAro: that silly enough is not the difficult part. Doing HTTPS in a client cross-platform, kinda is
09:37:40  <LordAro> indeed
09:37:43  <nielsm> I still hold we should make a brand new network game protocol
09:38:06  <nielsm> one that can easier nat-punch and can support encryption and authentication
09:38:18  <LordAro> uPnP?
09:38:40  <TrueBrain> nielsm: well, that doesn't really need a new game protocol, but it does need some things around that
09:38:47  <LordAro> i don't feel inventing our own (again) is the solution there :p
09:38:52  <TrueBrain> for example, NAT punching can be done with a simple extension
09:39:12  <TrueBrain> encryption too is a layer on top
09:39:33  <nielsm> TCP NAT punching is difficult and whether it can work at all depends on all the layers of routing between both ends
09:39:33  <TrueBrain> but I might have taken the "network game protocol" too narrow :D
09:39:37  <dP> TrueBrain, master server already queries the server so it's even more redundant for a client
09:39:53  <TrueBrain> dP: sorry? What do you mean? (what is it referring to)
09:40:01  <dP> TrueBrain, but what I was thinking is just to bootstrap the list from website and leave all the udp stuff intact
09:40:22  <dP> TrueBrain, "that a server advertised could also be joined. but .. it only checks UDP"
09:40:24  <TrueBrain> dP: yeah, that is a nice extension that would work fine tbh
09:40:54  <TrueBrain> the client querries the servers not to check if they are online, but because the master-server doesn;t have enough room in UDP packets to tell anything about the server :)
09:41:40  <dP> right xD
09:41:57  <andythenorth> LordAro spnda's roadstops look interesting
09:42:11  <andythenorth> I have not tried them, I got burnt out on newgrf spec stuff
09:42:18  <andythenorth> but could be nice :)
09:43:02  <TrueBrain> nielsm: I guess there are several things to figure out on network level .. how clients talk to a central authority, how clients talk to servers, and how servers  talk to a central authority. Making those use the same transport, would be nice :D
09:43:02  <LordAro> andythenorth: i can do code review, but i don't really feel qualified to review the content
09:43:31  <dP> TrueBrain, then I don't see why you say checking server is a problem, you can even join it for real from the master server
09:43:36  <TrueBrain> but it is a huge change :P
09:43:59  <TrueBrain> checking server is a problem?
09:44:05  <TrueBrain> sorry, I am lost in context :D
09:44:20  <dP> TrueBrain, actually another reason I'm thinking of my own master server is to get settings from servers to update this: https://citymania.org/tools/serverstat
09:46:11  <TrueBrain> dP: not sure if this is what you meant, but: currently the MSU (Master Server Updater) only checks if the UDP is working on a server, not the TCP
09:46:24  <TrueBrain> which always annoyed me, as it doesn't really show the firewalls are setup correctly
09:46:32  <TrueBrain> as the game protocol uses TCP, not UDP ..
09:47:01  <dP> TrueBrain, ah, that's what you meant
09:47:08  <TrueBrain> but, in general, people have more issues opening the UDP, so .. if the UDP works, it is very likely the TCP works too :D
09:47:40  <TrueBrain> @ports
09:47:40  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
09:47:44  <TrueBrain> hihi, that still works, funny
09:47:56  <dP> TrueBrain, and if master server was capable of sending server info it wouldn't even need udp :p
09:48:05  <dP> client I mean
09:48:30  <TrueBrain> the reason the MSU is UDP, is because otherwise you can very easily DoS the MSU
09:48:53  <nielsm> and I still think QUIC looks very promising as a protocol basis
09:49:02  <TrueBrain> QUIC is really nice
09:49:07  <TrueBrain> but also complex :D
09:49:12  <nielsm> the main issue last I looked was a lack of libraries that are easy to integrate
09:49:15  <nielsm> and/or mature
09:49:21  <LordAro> deciding factor will be cross platform support, i would think
09:49:33  <TrueBrain> nielsm: it is also really new ;)
09:49:41  <TrueBrain> nginx just came .. last week? with their QUIC implementation
09:50:34  <LordAro> https://github.com/microsoft/msquic ooh
09:51:37  <TrueBrain> and it would be nice if OpenTTD would have a centralized authority, as in: you can register your username somewhere, and on servers that are connected to that network, you always know that name is yours
09:51:51  <LordAro> lots of very significant TODOs remaining there though
09:52:26  <nielsm> yes just a way for a client to prove the player's identity to a server would be massive
09:52:51  <TrueBrain> I once wrote a draft how to do that .. but implementing it in the current codebase is a pita :P
09:53:04  <TrueBrain> regarding QUIC: OpenTTD used to be on the front of new technology
09:53:15  <TrueBrain> in 2007 OpenTTD was fully (and natively) IPv6
09:53:22  <TrueBrain> in 2007 ... let that sink in :P
09:53:33  <TrueBrain> so .. picking up QUIC would do that justice :)
09:53:52  <nielsm> besides using QUIC would only be ottd-ottd and ottd-master server connections
09:53:55  <nielsm> no need to interoperate
09:54:12  <nielsm> if everything uses the same library for it that's not a concern
09:54:25  <LordAro> TrueBrain: i don't think it would be unreasonable to wait until openssl actually supports it properly first
09:54:37  <TrueBrain> LordAro: live some :)
09:55:27  <dP> TrueBrain, dunno about centralized authority but forcing players to set a name would be very nice :p https://i.imgur.com/e1C6VxB.png
09:55:34  <dP> or at least asking more clearly :p
09:55:36  <TrueBrain> https://devs.openttd.org/~truebrain/authentication/ <- 2013, lol
09:57:59  <TrueBrain> nielsm: adding to the list: ottd-content :)
09:58:45  <TrueBrain> https://github.com/TrueBrain/OpenTTD-MS2-AS/blob/master/docs/overview.md <- 2018 brain dump ..
09:58:48  <TrueBrain> this is not a new topic :D
09:59:02  <nielsm> true
09:59:52  <TrueBrain> LordAro: in reality, if someone would start with this work now, it will take, what, at least 6 months to get it to a working state? Plenty of time for openssl to catch up ;)
10:00:35  <TrueBrain> dP: btw, the general team in these documents is that I would like to allow custom communities to run this software too, without too much hazzle
10:00:40  <TrueBrain> team? theme
10:00:41  <TrueBrain> dammit
10:02:06  <TrueBrain> but, my first goal remains: migrate everything to AWS :D
10:02:41  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrevorShelton updated pull request #8247: Fix #8162: Improve Error Message When Converting Town Owned Road https://git.io/JJvUx
10:04:32  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrevorShelton updated pull request #8247: Fix #8162: Improve Error Message When Converting Town Owned Road https://git.io/JJvUx
10:07:16  <dP> TrueBrain, nice ideas in that brain dump :)
10:07:56  <dP> TrueBrain, password system has some benefits though, for example Master Hellish did a stream where he put server password in the stream description and chat
10:08:10  <dP> so random strangers can't join but everyone from his stream can easily
10:08:13  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrevorShelton updated pull request #8247: Fix #8162: Improve Error Message When Converting Town Owned Road https://git.io/JJvUx
10:09:37  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrevorShelton updated pull request #8247: Fix #8162: Improve Error Message When Converting Town Owned Road https://git.io/JJvUx
10:09:40  <TrueBrain> dP: it is more about the ingame password; not so much about not supporting such flows
10:10:00  <TrueBrain> I would rather have a share-link thingy for those things
10:10:16  <TrueBrain> which gives you a valid token to join the server
10:10:39  <dP> TrueBrain, yeah, that will work
10:10:52  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrevorShelton updated pull request #8247: Fix #8162: Improve Error Message When Converting Town Owned Road https://git.io/JJvUx
10:11:00  <nielsm> TrueBrain: have you considered what if we instead moved the content service to be all standard HTTP and just call a "system" HTTP library for it?
10:11:01  <dP> TrueBrain, once link support is added to openttd that is :p
10:11:14  <nielsm> libcurl or WinHTTP or whatever
10:12:00  <TrueBrain> nielsm: what do you mean exactly?
10:12:35  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrevorShelton updated pull request #8247: Fix #8162: Improve Error Message When Converting Town Owned Road https://git.io/JJvUx
10:12:50  <TrueBrain> @mute PR 8247 for 1 hour
10:12:53  <TrueBrain> why doesn't this work :(
10:12:54  <nielsm> instead of the slightly hacky HTTP and custom protocol combination used currently
10:13:50  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrevorShelton updated pull request #8247: Fix #8162: Improve Error Message When Converting Town Owned Road https://git.io/JJvUx
10:14:10  <TrueBrain> nielsm: going full HTTPS (S being important) for the content-service would be awesome
10:14:13  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #8247: Fix #8162: Improve Error Message When Converting Town Owned Road https://git.io/JJvIO
10:14:21  <TrueBrain> going full HTTP is possible .. slightly less ideal
10:14:27  <TrueBrain> this current implementation is just shit :P
10:14:38  <nielsm> I think that PR is being edited on the github web interface...
10:14:42  <TrueBrain> better even: allow clicking on bananas.openttd.org to install content
10:14:44  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrevorShelton updated pull request #8247: Fix #8162: Improve Error Message When Converting Town Owned Road https://git.io/JJvUx
10:15:45  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrevorShelton updated pull request #8247: Fix #8162: Improve Error Message When Converting Town Owned Road https://git.io/JJvUx
10:16:01  <TrueBrain> now I come to think of it, not sure if an ingame content service is that good; doing it via a website might be much more userfriendly
10:16:13  <TrueBrain> but either way, yes, doing it over HTTP only would be better
10:16:27  <TrueBrain> from a server-side perspective nothing changes, as we still want to support older clients ;)
10:16:36  <nielsm> the big advantage of in-game is detecting and auto-fetching dependencies for a savegame or server
10:16:44  <TrueBrain> you can still have that
10:16:49  <TrueBrain> nothing has to change there
10:16:50  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrevorShelton updated pull request #8247: Fix #8162: Improve Error Message When Converting Town Owned Road https://git.io/JJvUx
10:16:54  <TrueBrain> just .. the UI part ;)
10:17:38  <TrueBrain> anyway, the content-service already has an HTTPS API, which should contain all the needed information to use HTTPS only for the ingame content service
10:17:52  <TrueBrain> so you can pick this up whenever you want :D
10:18:02  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrevorShelton updated pull request #8247: Fix #8162: Improve Error Message When Converting Town Owned Road https://git.io/JJvUx
10:18:02  <TrueBrain> https://app.swaggerhub.com/apis/OpenTTD/OpenTTD-content-api/1.0.0 <- this is the API
10:18:17  <nielsm> right now it's two clicks and not leaving the game at all, if you required the player to use a website for it you'd at the very least have the player being shunted out of the game into their browser and then have to figure out how to get back and when it's time to move back
10:19:04  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrevorShelton updated pull request #8247: Fix #8162: Improve Error Message When Converting Town Owned Road https://git.io/JJvUx
10:19:47  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrevorShelton updated pull request #8247: Fix #8162: Improve Error Message When Converting Town Owned Road https://git.io/JJvUx
10:19:48  <TrueBrain> nielsm: you need a link that brings you back to the client, yes, but that is possible these days
10:19:56  <TrueBrain> anyway, one doesn't have to exclude the other ..
10:20:06  <TrueBrain> just having an openttd:// and openttd-content:// support would be nice, I guess :)
10:20:17  <TrueBrain> would solve a few user-experience issues :D
10:20:37  <dP> it's nice to have content downloader for a save/server in the game, but for searching new mods website would be better
10:21:17  <nielsm> well right, a website catalog where the author can also provide pictures could be nice
10:21:25  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrevorShelton updated pull request #8247: Fix #8162: Improve Error Message When Converting Town Owned Road https://git.io/JJvUx
10:21:45  <nielsm> one thing even most newgrf threads is missing IMO is just some basic screenshots showing the art
10:22:02  <TrueBrain> and an easy way to download it :D
10:22:12  <andythenorth> nielsm I am +1 to that
10:22:14  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrevorShelton updated pull request #8247: Fix #8162: Improve Error Message When Converting Town Owned Road https://git.io/JJvUx
10:22:16  <andythenorth> there are various ideas
10:22:25  <andythenorth> could be manual upload
10:22:25  <TrueBrain> I had to download OpenGFX for my dedicated server ... I will not say how much time it took for me to find the right folder to put it in etc
10:22:30  <andythenorth> or art in action 14
10:22:32  <andythenorth> or in the tar
10:23:06  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrevorShelton updated pull request #8247: Fix #8162: Improve Error Message When Converting Town Owned Road https://git.io/JJvUx
10:23:15  <TrueBrain> nielsm: in general, I think there are a lot of ideas around the networking part of OpenTTD .. guess a first step would be to write it down, and make it actionable for people to work on
10:23:28  <TrueBrain> to make clear what the pros and cons are, what the deps are, etc
10:23:35  <TrueBrain> I mean, if CMake can make it into OpenTTD ........ :D
10:23:54  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrevorShelton updated pull request #8247: Fix #8162: Improve Error Message When Converting Town Owned Road https://git.io/JJvUx
10:23:55  <TrueBrain> poor guy, going off the languages one by one to remove a string ... I feel bad for him ..
10:24:28  <nielsm> maybe also starting out with some perceived problems with the current network implementation
10:24:50  <nielsm> and then address those with various potential solution
10:24:55  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrevorShelton updated pull request #8247: Fix #8162: Improve Error Message When Converting Town Owned Road https://git.io/JJvUx
10:25:18  <TrueBrain> https://trello.com/b/6j90aRB1/openttd <- updated my trello on what I am doing
10:25:35  <TrueBrain> the list is not getting smaller, but it is getting more well defined :D
10:25:45  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrevorShelton updated pull request #8247: Fix #8162: Improve Error Message When Converting Town Owned Road https://git.io/JJvUx
10:27:03  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrevorShelton updated pull request #8247: Fix #8162: Improve Error Message When Converting Town Owned Road https://git.io/JJvUx
10:27:17  <nielsm> https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1233659#p1233659   no... that's not wht I was asking
10:27:59  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrevorShelton updated pull request #8247: Fix #8162: Improve Error Message When Converting Town Owned Road https://git.io/JJvUx
10:28:39  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrevorShelton updated pull request #8247: Fix #8162: Improve Error Message When Converting Town Owned Road https://git.io/JJvUx
10:29:18  * dP just got the craziest idea ever - 3d print an openttd map and put it on a wall xD
10:29:39  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrevorShelton updated pull request #8247: Fix #8162: Improve Error Message When Converting Town Owned Road https://git.io/JJvUx
10:29:44  <Wolf01> TrueBrain: I set up an analyzer for crash.dmp in php, still not attached to a DB and just reads the uploaded file, developed with my left foot, and maybe it doesn't even do what the real idea is
10:31:05  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrevorShelton updated pull request #8247: Fix #8162: Improve Error Message When Converting Town Owned Road https://git.io/JJvUx
10:32:03  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrevorShelton updated pull request #8247: Fix #8162: Improve Error Message When Converting Town Owned Road https://git.io/JJvUx
10:32:59  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrevorShelton updated pull request #8247: Fix #8162: Improve Error Message When Converting Town Owned Road https://git.io/JJvUx
10:34:12  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrevorShelton updated pull request #8247: Fix #8162: Improve Error Message When Converting Town Owned Road https://git.io/JJvUx
10:35:18  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrevorShelton updated pull request #8247: Fix #8162: Improve Error Message When Converting Town Owned Road https://git.io/JJvUx
10:36:05  <Eddi|zuHause> is hw committing every keypress or something? :p
10:36:46  <nielsm> using github's web editor editing one language file at a time
10:37:06  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrevorShelton updated pull request #8247: Fix #8162: Improve Error Message When Converting Town Owned Road https://git.io/JJvUx
10:37:42  <nielsm> I kind of want to force him to learn how to clone the repo locally and squash all those cleanup commits
10:38:02  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrevorShelton updated pull request #8247: Fix #8162: Improve Error Message When Converting Town Owned Road https://git.io/JJvUx
10:38:16  <Wolf01> dP: I'm still trying to set up the new entry level 3D printer, but I had that idea too
10:39:13  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrevorShelton updated pull request #8247: Fix #8162: Improve Error Message When Converting Town Owned Road https://git.io/JJvUx
10:39:25  <dP> Wolf01, I got mine yesterday, already printing some upgrades for it xD
10:40:48  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrevorShelton commented on pull request #8247: Fix #8162: Improve Error Message When Converting Town Owned Road https://git.io/JJvLy
10:41:02  <nielsm> gah stuck with an old problem again: I want to move part of commit B's changed over to commit A instead
10:41:50  <nielsm> unless I should just squash all of the tree toolbar changes into one
10:43:00  <dP> though now that I think of it, how do you even 3d print a 2d game? xD
10:43:46  <Wolf01> dP: I tried to print a calibration thing but it came out a shit, the base is good, the circles are not perfect, the walls are just a bunch of wires which disintegrate when touched instead of a solid, also the top horizontal surfaces are a lattice... maybe is the model, maybe the settings I used
10:47:17  <Wolf01> dP: which slicer are you using? I need to use Cura because the one they provided doesn't even load the blueprints from thingiverse
10:48:07  <dP> Wolf01, I'm using cura as well
10:48:26  <dP> Wolf01, I'm a complete newbie in 3d printing though, just happy mine worked out of the box
10:49:43  <Wolf01> Ahah, me too, I purchased a labists x1 because it was discounted and suggested for entry level
10:54:05  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #8247: Fix #8162: Improve Error Message When Converting Town Owned Road https://git.io/JJvtm
10:54:19  <LordAro> Eddi|zuHause: using the web interface to delete a line from every language file
10:54:43  <Eddi|zuHause> don't we have a script for that?
10:55:35  <LordAro> not in the repo
10:55:46  <LordAro> and not something you can use if you're only using the web interface :p
10:56:59  <Eddi|zuHause> i mean as in: tell him to not touch the langfiles (except english)
11:00:02  <LordAro> maybe eints would remove it?
11:00:05  <LordAro> i'm not sure
11:00:09  <LordAro> regardless, too late now
11:01:39  <Wolf01> "Non-manifold edges are the edges of models that can only exist in the 3D space and not the physical world." Lol
11:03:43  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know if eints does that, but it probably should
11:04:08  <LordAro> i know it "invalidates" other languages strings if the english changes
11:04:14  <LordAro> i don't know about removing entirely
11:04:24  <LordAro> would mean compile warnings though
11:04:47  <Eddi|zuHause> iirc webtranslator didn't do it
11:16:02  <Cursarion> how profoundly is the date of the world part of how the game works? I was looking at how it takes about two real time seconds for game world day to change and then wondering how large the scale on the map must be if you look at the vehicle speeds from that point of view. A train going 300 kph will go 7200 km in a day, but that train also moves only a few tiles in that time, so each tile must ...
11:16:08  <Cursarion> ... be hundreds of kilometers long, if not tens of hundreds. :P
11:16:33  <LordAro> Cursarion: try not to think about scale in OTTD too closely
11:16:40  *** m811 has quit IRC
11:18:07  <LordAro> all 4 transport types work at completely different scales
11:18:16  <Cursarion> then I started to wonder if it'd be possible to play the game in normal speed but just the world clock going slower? Would it break everything, or is the date just an arbitrary thing?
11:18:33  <LordAro> oh you have no idea how big that question is
11:18:40  <LordAro> you can search for "daylength"
11:20:05  <Cursarion> aren't there some sort of ticks internally?
11:20:31  <Wolf01> The only way to have an accurate simulation is to have a real time and real distances based one, and then fast forward it at a point you can't even see the vehicles
11:21:36  <LordAro> Cursarion: sure
11:21:40  <LordAro> 74 ticks a day
11:21:50  <LordAro> which as you found out, is approximately 2s
11:22:00  <b_jonas> and like five different cycles for different mechanics
11:22:43  <Cursarion> looks like someone's made a patch for that
11:22:52  <LordAro> there have been many
11:23:17  <LordAro> they're all flawed in one way or another
11:26:18  <nielsm> TTD DOS: https://0x0.st/iJ28.png  // OTTD 1.10.1: https://0x0.st/iJ2K.png  //  my tree tools patch: https://0x0.st/iJ2P.png
11:26:25  <nielsm> see the issue with OTTD compared to TTD DOS?
11:26:34  <nielsm> (using the same baseset GRF file for all three)
11:28:29  <Wolf01> Shouldn't the position be randomized?
11:29:18  <nielsm> maybe also that
11:29:21  <Cursarion> LordAro: are the flaws severe? or just something that can be scaled with relatively simple maths?
11:29:27  <nielsm> but the second tree type in the UI is using the wrong sprite
11:30:47  <Wolf01> I know there are unused trees, I found it while I was playing with my tree placement patch
11:31:15  <Wolf01> Maybe OTTD select the available trees differently
11:31:28  <nielsm> nah the sprite used there is the first withering sprite for eighth type
11:31:45  <Wolf01> But it seem only for the UI
11:31:49  <nielsm> yeah
11:31:54  <Wolf01> The placed ones are fine
11:32:18  <Wolf01> Ha! It's the roadside tree
11:32:33  <andythenorth> Cursarion every daylength patch thread starts approximately "it can't be that hard"
11:32:43  <andythenorth> followed by "see I've got nearly all of it working"
11:32:52  <andythenorth> followed by "...[crickets]..."
11:33:34  <andythenorth> nielsm OTTD trees are weird :)
11:33:37  <andythenorth> I always turn them off :)
11:33:42  <andythenorth> they don't look right
11:33:47  <andythenorth> and they all disappear during the game
11:34:06  <nielsm> andythenorth: try opening the scenario editor with a flat blank map and just fast forward
11:34:11  <nielsm> it will get filled with trees
11:34:36  <andythenorth> so why does SE plant more, but actual game doesn't replace dead ones?
11:34:59  <andythenorth> is dying trees disabled in SE?
11:35:02  <Wolf01> It seem that pollution generated while playing withers them out... oh wait, that's Factorio
11:37:02  <Wolf01> I would like permanent trees and exact trees position in tiles, but still trees so you can build over them etc instead of using newobjects
11:37:44  <Wolf01> Was this a goal of NotTrees?
11:43:33  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh updated pull request #8234: Trees GUI improvements https://git.io/JfxU1
11:53:17  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #8240: Fix #8221: Subtitle - No Bridge Type Given Size https://git.io/JJvqH
11:53:58  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro merged pull request #8240: Fix #8221: Subtitle - No Bridge Type Given Size https://git.io/JJeso
11:53:59  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro closed issue #8221: No error message subtitle for if no bridge types available for target length < max bridge length https://git.io/JfQrI
12:10:28  <Cursarion> andythenorth: well, is it hard per se, or just lots of work?
12:11:36  <Cursari