Log for #openttd on 1st July 2020:
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01:56:28  <supermop_Home> now the helicopter is just hovering almost immediately above my apartment
01:56:45  <supermop_Home> for the past 20 minutes
01:59:18  <supermop_Home> presumably due to the budget vote this evening i'd guess
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03:26:14  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8217: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP
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05:50:57  <andythenorth> hmm
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06:08:28  * andythenorth breaks the law
06:27:28  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8217: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP
06:28:48  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8217: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP
06:37:01  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8217: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP
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06:54:39  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8217: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP
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07:00:51  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8217: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP
07:01:39  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8217: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP
07:02:23  <andythenorth> I read the logs for
07:02:36  <andythenorth> but not in a way that has an exemption
07:02:40  <andythenorth> so I broke the law
07:03:14  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8217: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP
07:03:40  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8217: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP
07:05:03  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8217: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP
07:06:31  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8217: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP
07:06:45  <LordAro> andythenorth: the horror.
07:10:45  <andythenorth> PECR innit
07:10:52  <andythenorth> it was probably your device too
07:12:03  <andythenorth> 'mostly I have been reading EU legal documents'
07:12:51  <andythenorth> maybe I should put a consent banner on
07:12:55  <andythenorth> but it must not be intrusive
07:13:03  <andythenorth> and it must be fully informative, but not confusing
07:13:13  <andythenorth> and I can't block access to the service if consent is withheld
07:13:16  <nielsm> are you putting tracking cookies?
07:13:22  <andythenorth> no no, I just read the S3 logs
07:13:36  <andythenorth> but that stores the OS and user agent
07:13:40  <andythenorth> and those are your property
07:13:57  <andythenorth> so it's illegal to read them unless it's for one of 2 exempted causes
07:14:16  <andythenorth> 'beware of the leopard' is all I have
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07:30:14  <andythenorth> hmm vehicle engine plants are quite boring buildings
07:30:19  * andythenorth needs to draw for FIRS
07:36:25  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8217: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP
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08:19:48  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8217: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP
08:45:57  <CornsMcGowan[m]> what IDE do you all use for OpenTTD dev?
08:47:33  <CornsMcGowan[m]> i used to use VS19 enterprise cause my university gives student licenses out, but i'm trying to get into the habit of using VSCode instead
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08:48:43  <LordAro> use whatever you feel comfortable with
08:48:49  <LordAro> i use vim
08:49:10  <CornsMcGowan[m]> h o w
08:49:50  <LordAro> because i feel comfortable using it :p
08:51:22  <CornsMcGowan[m]> HAHA thats understandable
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09:18:55  <nielsm> vs2019 community is what I use
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10:17:06  <Samu> hi
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10:33:08  <Samu> what was the value in VCPKG_TARGET_TRIPLET	x64-windows
10:40:22  <Samu>
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11:09:44  <Samu> how do I ignore work project files
11:09:51  <Samu> and folders
11:11:21  <Samu> - files and folders in the '.vs' and in the 'out'
11:11:48  <Samu> and also 'CMakeSettings.json'
11:12:39  <Samu> when i add to ignore, it goes to .gitignore and it then becomes another changed file
11:12:48  <Samu> '.gitignore'
11:18:50  <LordAro> Samu: there's an open PR
11:19:03  <LordAro> just ignore them for now
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12:33:01  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] danchr updated pull request #8189: Update: generate Mac bundle on install rather than packaging
12:34:29  <andythenorth> hmm mac cmake build still fails for me
12:34:46  <andythenorth> the cause appears to be that brew ports tree does some inappropriate things with headers
12:34:53  <andythenorth> but I tried the fix and it didn't work so far
12:34:59  * andythenorth 1st world problems
12:42:39  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] danchr updated pull request #8189: Update: generate Mac bundle on install rather than packaging
12:43:57  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] danchr commented on pull request #8189: Update: generate Mac bundle on install rather than packaging
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15:42:48  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: at least you have your own domain :P
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15:48:48  <andythenorth> I do :D
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16:00:57  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/DorpsGek] LordAro approved pull request #24: Scheduled monthly dependency update for June
16:01:19  <LordAro> TrueBrain: quick, before pyup-bot notices and makes a new PR :p
16:02:36  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/DorpsGek] TrueBrain merged pull request #24: Scheduled monthly dependency update for June
16:02:58  <TrueBrain> YOLO
16:03:19  <LordAro> :D
16:03:27  <LordAro> could enable it on a few other repos, perhaps?
16:03:37  <TrueBrain> yeah, but PyUp is a bit of shit
16:03:47  <LordAro> true
16:03:58  <TrueBrain> they keep spamming me, and be all "I NEED ATTENTION I AM SAD"
16:04:16  <TrueBrain> so I wanted to migrate to dependabot, but lets see if they added 1 PR for all deps now
16:05:31  <LordAro> and nml doesn't even have a requirements file, it's embedded in
16:05:39  <TrueBrain> that ... is wrong
16:05:43  <LordAro> nah
16:05:44  <LordAro> it works well
16:05:52  <TrueBrain> the fact that things work, don't make them less wrong
16:06:06  <TrueBrain> I can wear a trashbag as tshirt
16:06:07  <TrueBrain> it works
16:06:08  <TrueBrain> but it is wrong
16:06:17  <LordAro> means you can install things easily
16:06:20  <TrueBrain> should never ever pin an exact version :)
16:06:24  <LordAro> it doesn't
16:06:33  <TrueBrain> so it isn't embedding requirements.txt :)
16:06:42  <TrueBrain> so you are wrong, and mixing up 2 things :P :P
16:06:45  <LordAro> ok, it's embedding requirements.base
16:06:50  <TrueBrain> fine :)
16:06:57  <LordAro> which is an invention of yours, afaik
16:07:00  <TrueBrain> requirements.base is my own hack, because I am too lazy to make a :P
16:07:28  <TrueBrain> well, you don't need to do anymore these days ..
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16:07:31  <TrueBrain> still too lazy :)
16:07:34  <TrueBrain> ssttt, he is back
16:09:59  <TrueBrain> github dependabot still doesn't allow a single PR per month, it seems
16:10:06  <TrueBrain> possibly that is an indication what I want is weird :P
16:12:33  <TrueBrain> even their own repo looks ugly because of it; it is useful, as you can see if a single dependency fails, instead of "one of these"
16:12:37  <TrueBrain> but ugh .. it gives a lot of noise
16:13:27  <LordAro> mm
16:14:08  <Eddi|zuHause> so, i have this problem, where if i update to a kernel newer than 5.5 the network card is not recognized
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16:16:05  <TrueBrain> seems to be not coming any time soon, "grouping" in dependabot .. bah :P
16:16:48  <TrueBrain> so guess I should enable PyUp on the other repos for now ..
16:16:51  <TrueBrain> "soon" :)
16:16:57  <TrueBrain> I have some more free time in a month or so
16:17:19  <TrueBrain> and I will fix's too in that case :)
16:17:31  <TrueBrain> LordAro: that btw still leaves nml should get a "requirements.txt" with known good dependencies :)
16:18:11  <LordAro> i guess so
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17:23:15  <CornsMcGowan[m]> hello, can somebody walk me through compiling openttd (jgrpp) on linux ubuntu?
17:26:18  <CornsMcGowan[m]> oh wow i dont even have git installed on this HAHA
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17:41:50  <andythenorth> so should we use for all grfs?
17:41:52  <andythenorth> or as my pet?
17:42:16  <andythenorth> [asking for a friend]
17:45:50  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master
17:45:50  <DorpsGek_III>   - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
17:51:49  <FLHerne> CornsMcGowan[m]: Get the source, cd path/to/src && ./configure && make -j
17:52:00  <FLHerne> Unless JGR has the cmake patch already
17:54:07  <CornsMcGowan[m]> tyy
17:54:18  <CornsMcGowan[m]> i went the ./configure make route
17:54:24  <FLHerne> (his git head does, but not the latest release)
17:54:30  <CornsMcGowan[m]> whats the -j argument
17:54:42  <CornsMcGowan[m]> is that same as --jobs
17:55:11  <FLHerne> For current openttd or jgr git, you want `mkdir build && cd build && cmake .. && make -j` or so
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17:56:34  <FLHerne> Yes
17:57:10  <FLHerne> Lets `make` run multiple processes in parallel, which unless your computer is ancient will be a lot quicker
17:59:22  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/DorpsGek] pyup-bot opened pull request #25: Scheduled monthly dependency update for July
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18:08:01  <CornsMcGowan[m]> ah sweet ty :)
18:12:17  <andythenorth> hmm tinfoil time
18:12:19  <frosch123> andythenorth: regular people should just just github bundles
18:12:32  <andythenorth> maybe george should do that
18:12:33  <frosch123> your speciality is hosting docs
18:12:35  <andythenorth> yes
18:12:35  <frosch123> which noone else has
18:12:46  <andythenorth> regular people should just use bananas :P
18:13:08  <frosch123> hmm, in that case... possibly george thinks you also run a compile farm
18:13:25  <andythenorth> c'est possible
18:13:41  <andythenorth> il est faux
18:13:52  <andythenorth> je n'ai pas un compile farm
18:13:56  <andythenorth> name might be misleading
18:16:35  <andythenorth> ceci n'est pas une ferme
18:16:48  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/DorpsGek] LordAro approved pull request #25: Scheduled monthly dependency update for July
18:18:17  <andythenorth> anyway tinfoil, if I run the AWS python client locally (
18:18:26  <andythenorth> how do I safely give it creds?
18:19:19  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/DorpsGek] TrueBrain merged pull request #25: Scheduled monthly dependency update for July
18:20:10  <nielsm> safe from what?
18:21:30  <TrueBrain> Make IAM user with limited rights and generate an API key. Have auto keyrotate activated and monitor the account for unusual activity :p
18:22:26  <frosch123> andythenorth: oh, wow... i did not make the relation to .farm either
18:22:30  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/DorpsGek] TrueBrain created new tag: 1.0.4
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19:15:15  <andythenorth> nielsm dunno, I am a bit paranoid about creds
19:15:22  <andythenorth> should I be typing them in every time I run it?
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19:20:53  <nielsm> andythenorth: as TB suggests, maybe make a separate (limited permissions) account the job can run under, so if anyone does snatch the creds their abilities would be insufficient to do real damage
19:24:08  <Wolf01> Does that need to be suggested?
19:24:26  <nielsm> sometimes the obvious is overlooked
19:25:17  <nielsm> if you're launching the job interactively from macos, maybe it's possible to somehow store the creds in Keychain
19:26:14  <Wolf01> We are even creating a lot of google accounts to handle APIs for different things instead of just creating different projects
19:28:07  <andythenorth> there's a convention in AWS to provision limited creds
19:28:15  <andythenorth> it's this end I worry about
19:28:29  <andythenorth> I am basically taking untrusted 3rd party contributions via github
19:28:43  <andythenorth> and then potentially letting them publish to s3
19:28:53  <andythenorth> it's not a very interesting attack though :P
19:29:14  <TrueBrain> How do you think docs and website end up on AWS?
19:29:19  <TrueBrain> A magic hamster?
19:29:23  <andythenorth> I have general paranoia about creds
19:29:52  <andythenorth> tinfoil to the max
19:30:23  <TrueBrain> well, that can be a good thing, if it doesn't prevent you from living your life ;)
19:30:41  <TrueBrain> but OpenTTD uses a very strictly limited IAM account with API creds as a GitHub secret to publish the website
19:30:47  <TrueBrain> if the creds leak ... they can upload another website
19:30:48  <TrueBrain> that is it
19:31:00  <Wolf01> <TB> A magic hamster? <- this wasted me XD
19:31:07  <TrueBrain> bad? sure. a catastrophic event? Not really.
19:33:58  <TrueBrain> you are welcome Wolf01  :)
19:35:26  <Wolf01> andythenorth: purchased the crocodile... shipping from 20th august
19:35:41  <Wolf01> ಥ╭╮ಥ
19:37:46  <andythenorth> Wolf01 :)
19:41:04  <andythenorth> I do spend an insane amount of my day entering passwords
19:41:10  <andythenorth> it really makes work harder
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19:41:28  <Wolf01> Me too, and I usually interchange them
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19:41:56  <TrueBrain> you do know we have password managers, right?
19:42:02  <andythenorth> I won't use any autofill from my password manager because exploits have been demonstrated against them
19:42:13  <andythenorth> and the password manager requires a password
19:42:50  <Wolf01> And first I need to login on windows to use the password manager
19:43:20  <Wolf01> But usually I have it on my phone because my boss doesn't want us to use it
19:43:21  <andythenorth> I have touch ID unlock on some password managers, but that needs a password every n hours
19:43:34  <TrueBrain> I only need to know 3 passwords during my day
19:43:38  <TrueBrain> I love simplicity in life
19:44:31  <TrueBrain> people who use auto-type, need to have the Firefox / Chrome plugin installed, that adds the URL to the browser title
19:44:41  <TrueBrain> and enable auto-type based on active-window-title
19:44:48  <TrueBrain> avoids all the ... accidental autofills :)
19:45:15  <Wolf01> I need to know 3 passwords too, but I keep filling the wrong one
19:45:59  <TrueBrain> PEKBAC
19:46:04  <TrueBrain> the world's real problem
19:46:35  <Wolf01> Yes
19:49:33  <Wolf01> It's nice how I remember better my own passwords which I don't even need to fill every time as I have autologin or saved in browser, but the ones I fill in constantly at work are the most difficult to get right
19:50:03  <TrueBrain> brrr, save in browser
19:50:07  <TrueBrain> please don't use that :(
19:50:14  <TrueBrain> you ever notice you do not need a password to "unlock" them?
19:50:41  <Wolf01> Yes, but it's my own pc at home
19:51:01  <TrueBrain> just install a password manager :P
19:51:08  <TrueBrain> BitWarden, 1Password, ..
19:52:05  <Wolf01> I use KeePass, but only to get the passwords I don't want to save
19:52:30  <Wolf01> Like banking account
19:53:31  <TrueBrain> use a cloud-based solution, and your world becomes a lot easier :)
19:53:45  <TrueBrain> All my passwords are in 1Password, I never have to remember any, because fingerprint :P
19:54:52  <Wolf01> I just remember them... all 143
19:55:21  <TrueBrain> lies!
19:55:27  <TrueBrain> :D
19:55:36  <TrueBrain> if you can remember 143 passwords, they are not different enough :P
19:55:43  <TrueBrain> or you have the wrong job :P
19:56:12  <Wolf01> Seriously, and no, they aren't different enough, not the same one but I can calculate them :P
19:56:53  <TrueBrain> you should visit one of my trainingdays .. you will have a different opinion afterwards :D
19:57:04  <TrueBrain> I even managed to get HR person to leave the room to change their passwords (with KeePass)
19:57:06  <TrueBrain> epic win :)
19:57:17  <Wolf01> Ahah
19:58:41  <TrueBrain> I train companies on cybersecurity, one of these is a simple session where we introduce all office people to what it is about
19:58:45  <frosch123> TrueBrain: during the coffee break?
19:58:51  <TrueBrain> and we have some passwords we name, which most likely is one of their passwords
19:58:53  <TrueBrain> we always hit a few
19:58:58  <TrueBrain> which still amazes me till this day
19:59:14  <TrueBrain> just the simple things like: <companyname>01!
19:59:21  <TrueBrain> and you just see the reaction on people's face
20:00:00  <frosch123> good, i am safe, i use <companyname>02
20:00:21  <Wolf01> I must not continue with this argument or you'll kill me, because in my company it's just fine if we don't have the passwords written on a sticky note on the monitor
20:00:51  <frosch123> my IT shows a video from some show, where they interview people on the street abuot their passwords
20:01:43  <frosch123> like: what is your password? -  the name of by pet. - oh, you have a pet? what it's name? - peter
20:01:50  <TrueBrain> that I use in trainings too frosch123  :)
20:02:04  <TrueBrain> Wolf01: yeah ... hire us for a single session; that will change :P
20:02:29  <b_jonas> frosch123: that sort of interview has a strong selection effect, because the sort of people who are sensible about their password won't tell about them to random people interviewing them in the street
20:02:37  <b_jonas> so it's like even worse than ordinary interviews
20:03:09  <TrueBrain>
20:03:10  <frosch123> <- that one
20:03:13  <TrueBrain> b_jonas: you take it too seriously ;)
20:03:19  <TrueBrain> it is a fuzz-piece
20:03:23  <Wolf01> Aahha, I only use pseudo-random sequences of chars, numbers, symbols, you won't get one so easy, but I can get it knowing my algorythm :P
20:03:26  <frosch123> TrueBrain: so it was the same :)
20:03:33  <TrueBrain> frosch123: yup :)
20:04:00  <TrueBrain> Wolf01: the other VERY common one we see: when I crack your password, I can tell how many months you work at your company
20:04:04  <TrueBrain> as it is <base>01 for the first reset
20:04:06  <TrueBrain> <base>02 for the second
20:04:07  <TrueBrain> etc
20:04:10  <TrueBrain> people are stupid
20:04:12  <TrueBrain> like .. really stupid
20:04:20  <milek7> passwords resets are stupid
20:04:24  <Wolf01> Yeah
20:04:29  <TrueBrain> what you need to tell people .. I find your password of 2 years ago .. it is <base>03
20:04:32  <TrueBrain> we are 4 resets later
20:04:37  <TrueBrain> so ...... can I guess your password now?
20:04:58  <TrueBrain> password resets are not bad; people not understanding why we use passwords are the issue
20:05:03  <TrueBrain> but the solution is simple: enable MFA
20:05:06  <TrueBrain> fuck passwords
20:05:07  <Wolf01> What if I go reverse... ohh shit XD
20:06:03  <milek7> Wolf01: well, if somebody created several honeypot sites for you to register
20:06:21  <milek7> maybe they could reverse-engineer your algorithm :P
20:06:37  <Wolf01> Probably
20:06:38  <andythenorth> I am imagining TB training my staff
20:06:41  <andythenorth> that could be quite lolz
20:07:05  <TrueBrain> the worst realisation of this year: people use password managers .. by adding an entry, and come up with their own password. It was such a facepalm moment, that we (IT) forgot to train our users HOW to use password managers
20:08:11  <frosch123> sometimes sites do not accept random hashes of dozens of chars, but want special chars
20:08:21  <andythenorth> those sites are annoying
20:08:23  <frosch123> then i usually isnert them manually somewhere in the hash
20:08:31  <TrueBrain> some sites still have a "max 16 chars" limit
20:08:34  <frosch123> it's easier than clicking all those checkboxes
20:08:46  <andythenorth> some shopping site, if it's a commodity thing, I just go to a different site when the password rules are dumb
20:08:52  <TrueBrain> which makes you wonder who developed it .. and if he understands hashing ...
20:09:28  <frosch123> TrueBrain: oh, the admin in 2009 send a mail: company policy requires >= 8 chars, our old sunos boxes support <= 8 chars. so you know what that means
20:09:28  <dP> I liked to use algorithm to generate passwords until I realised it depends on a keyboard layout which I change constantly xD
20:09:36  <dP> now I have a separete layout for passwords xD
20:11:20  <TrueBrain> frosch123: yeah, a known issue, sadly ..
20:12:50  <milek7> due to GDPR probably, recently there's trend for encrypting zip mail attachments
20:13:29  <TrueBrain> what ... has GDPR have to do with that?
20:14:02  <andythenorth> I broke the law this morning
20:14:11  <frosch123> i am always amazed when people send two mails, one with the zip, and a second with the plain password
20:14:12  <TrueBrain> you ran a light?
20:14:12  <milek7> probably they think to protect data more
20:14:14  <andythenorth> I read the AWS S3 logs for my new site
20:14:19  <frosch123> how does that help?
20:14:34  <andythenorth> and the purpose wasn't covered by the exemptions, and I don't have consent
20:14:37  <milek7> one issue is.. guess how long it takes to bruteforce 8 digit password in pkzip encryption?
20:14:57  <andythenorth> so I violated PECR
20:15:02  <TrueBrain> frosch123: yeah .... I know right :(
20:15:08  <frosch123> andythenorth: i guess, reading them is fine. it only matters if you acutally use them
20:15:19  <andythenorth> nope, reading is accessing
20:15:32  <andythenorth> I read them to guess who had been looking at the site
20:15:39  <andythenorth> that purpose isn't allowed
20:15:50  <TrueBrain> so you had bad intent!
20:15:53  <frosch123> how good are your guesses?
20:15:59  <andythenorth> I don't know
20:16:11  <andythenorth> I can't actually profile anyone with the data
20:16:14  <andythenorth> but still illegal
20:16:20  <andythenorth> completely allowed under GDPR though
20:16:24  <frosch123> you can run geoip lookup
20:16:26  <TrueBrain> just say you wanted to check no weird URLs were opened
20:16:46  <frosch123> though, since i have a new isp, i actually don't know where it locates me now
20:16:51  <frosch123> previous one was like 200 km off
20:17:02  <TrueBrain> as long as it is the right country :P
20:17:15  <dP> I don't even remember which country is my ip located in xD
20:17:26  <andythenorth> IP lookup is different
20:17:29  <andythenorth> that's not PECR
20:17:44  <frosch123> oh, it's equally far away
20:18:09  <frosch123> and an absolute village i never heard about
20:18:11  <andythenorth> 'everything is awesome'
20:18:14  <TrueBrain> PECR is uk only, right?
20:18:25  <andythenorth> it's the UK implementation of the 2002 ePrivacy Directive
20:18:30  <andythenorth> you probably have your own version
20:18:30  <TrueBrain> yeah, so nobody cares
20:18:32  <milek7> 0:00:00:04 DONE
20:18:36  <TrueBrain> HE WALKED RIGHT INTO THATONE :)
20:18:48  <TrueBrain> we have AVG, which is GDPR, but translated :P
20:18:58  <andythenorth> 2002 version is a Directive not a Regulation
20:19:13  <andythenorth> so the requirement for member nations to translate to local law is different
20:19:19  <andythenorth> Regulation is more stringent / forceful
20:19:29  <andythenorth> yes, even after Brexit, EU law still reks my life
20:19:48  <TrueBrain> I am so happy so many people already say: EU and UK
20:19:53  <TrueBrain> read the best twitter thread ever btw?
20:19:55  <andythenorth> its simplifies my marketing
20:20:08  <andythenorth> we used to get tied in knots about 'our customers in UK/EU'
20:20:08  <TrueBrain> <- in case you somehow missed it
20:20:14  <andythenorth> UK/EU was a tautology
20:20:16  <TrueBrain> it is better than live tv, and it is still ongoing
20:20:22  <andythenorth> but nobody in UK thought they were in EU
20:21:07  <andythenorth> anyway, you should have your own PECR
20:21:16  <andythenorth> I hope OpenTTD is compliant
20:21:58  <TrueBrain> It most part is
20:22:10  <TrueBrain> There are currently some edgecases
20:22:38  <TrueBrain> (mostly as I am getting used to AWS)
20:22:55  <andythenorth> oh you have a Dutch Telecommunications Act equivalent to PECR
20:22:57  <andythenorth> lucky you
20:25:34  <andythenorth> I just hope you never look what OS players use
20:26:15  <andythenorth> the client probably doesn't supply that?
20:27:54  <TrueBrain> Ah, that is what PECR is, that makes more sense
20:28:32  <andythenorth> it's illegal to access information about the terminal equipment
20:28:38  <andythenorth> except for specific purposes
20:29:00  <andythenorth> it's intended as a privacy law, but it's kind of constructed as a property law
20:29:15  <TrueBrain> in The Netherlands that law is with a completely different focus :P
20:29:45  <andythenorth> it probably still includes terminal equipment
20:29:52  <frosch123> TrueBrain: oh dear, i had a favorite brexit tweet. but it now has been declassed by far
20:30:04  <andythenorth> it has quite funny unintended consequences for network services
20:30:20  <TrueBrain> frosch123: you are welcome :)
20:30:23  <andythenorth> the 2017 draft ePrivacy Regulation even recognises that the 2002 version was, in EU speak, a fucking disaster
20:32:42  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: as far as I can see, the "Telecommunicatiewet" is really only about mobile providers really
20:33:10  <TrueBrain> we do have an "Informatieplicht", information-duty, so to say, which I thought PCRE was including
20:33:19  <andythenorth> maybe you did a better job in NL
20:33:31  <TrueBrain> the latter doesn't allow spam, spamcalls, phishing, etc
20:34:07  <TrueBrain> well, it might be in there
20:34:14  <TrueBrain> I just never heard anyone talk about it in that sense :)
20:34:43  <andythenorth>
20:34:45  <TrueBrain> it is about frequencies, how they are sold to companies, what to transmit (radio-programms), ..
20:34:58  <andythenorth> metadata about your device is your property
20:35:24  <andythenorth> using it without explicit consent is not allowed, except for specific exemptions
20:37:19  <andythenorth> it's all very silly, and will probably get replaced
20:37:53  <andythenorth> but any analytics using device information are illegal without consent
20:38:16  <TrueBrain> there is a part of what you post in the dutch law
20:38:30  <TrueBrain> but it is about using analytics to give an unfair advantage to a group of people
20:38:36  <andythenorth> I can process that data to respond to security threats or breaches
20:38:46  <andythenorth> I can use it if it's essential to delivering the service
20:38:55  <andythenorth> but I can't use it for anything else
20:39:27  <TrueBrain> here it notes that if you do, you are processing personal data
20:39:34  <TrueBrain> which .. is fine, as long as you follow the rules for that :)
20:39:46  <andythenorth> so I can incidentally do pro-active security, and find that e.g. 30% of our visits are from windows users on vulnerable IE
20:39:56  <andythenorth> but I then have to forget that information when designing the site
20:40:15  <TrueBrain> but okay, this law is meant for the communication network itself; I really wonder if it would apply for webservers tbh
20:40:33  <andythenorth> it does
20:40:36  <LordAro> computers are hard, as it turns out
20:40:38  <TrueBrain> in the NL, I mean ;)
20:40:40  <andythenorth> there are 2 EU determinations
20:40:44  <andythenorth> and a UK ICO determination
20:40:48  <andythenorth> it's quite clear
20:41:01  <andythenorth> I can use analytics to choose appropriate cypher suites for the clients
20:41:19  <andythenorth> and for delivering programmatic (javascript) changes to the design dynamically
20:41:24  <andythenorth> but not for the actual design
20:42:11  <andythenorth> I've read the EU findings, and had 2 legal counsel opinions
20:42:14  <andythenorth> it's nuts :)
20:42:34  <TrueBrain> yeah, and I always wonder when NL followed EU by the letter, and when they made it more .. dutch
20:42:41  <TrueBrain> for GDPR they fucked up, and it is a 1 on 1
20:42:49  <TrueBrain> story goes they were too slow, and the EU deadline passed
20:42:54  <TrueBrain> no clue if that story is true :)
20:43:18  <andythenorth> TV time also :)
20:43:41  <TrueBrain> its funny, an explicit except is giving if you need that data to rate your effectiveness
20:44:02  <TrueBrain> so looking how many people access from Windows, is clearly within that excempt
20:44:26  <TrueBrain> but, also explicit, it must not hurt the enduser in any significant way
20:44:40  <TrueBrain> (So I cannot send you a webcam and force you to install it, basically :P)
20:45:37  <TrueBrain> yeah, funny, but it seems not as strong here as it is for you
20:46:22  <TrueBrain> you just need a good reason; not "because I wanted to know", but "because I want to make sure my Windows visitor get the best experience"
20:47:25  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: the differences are funny. PCRE says: "is given the opportunity to refuse the storage". Dutch law says: "has to give explicit concent"
20:47:27  <TrueBrain> see the difference? :D
20:48:14  <TrueBrain> yeah, the dutch law has more exempts :D Funny :)
20:51:41  <Eddi|zuHause> i've read that brexit thread earlier today, felt quite entertained and also sad about the state of the world...
20:52:11  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: do realise the twitter account is of an author of a book under his alias
20:52:13  <TrueBrain> so .. yeah
20:52:35  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: seems our law changed in 2014 to change that part, from the strict part you have, to a more .. open form
20:54:18  <TrueBrain> yeah, from "strictly necessary" to "needed for quality or effectiveness"
20:54:19  <TrueBrain> :D
20:56:09  <TrueBrain> 2015-03-11, the date the change was made in the law :)
20:56:14  <TrueBrain> I like how you can browse this online
20:56:19  <TrueBrain> they even show the diff between different versions
20:56:50  <TrueBrain> so it seems the UK stuck in the past
20:56:52  <TrueBrain> no surprise there :P
20:57:28  <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: i'm treating everything i read on twitter as fictional anyway :)
21:00:35  <TrueBrain> what did I learn today? Well, that we had a shitty law till 2015, and the Dutch decided to change it into something sane. Yeah. Laws are allowed to change :P
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21:06:16  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8217: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP
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21:18:41  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8217: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP
21:29:45  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8217: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP
21:32:19  <andythenorth> TrueBrain the UK regime is based on
21:32:21  <andythenorth> it's lolz
21:32:48  <TrueBrain> happy to live in a sane country
21:32:59  <TrueBrain> you should move here .. you wouldn't have this trouble :P
21:34:13  <andythenorth> is this why NL doesn't want to quit the EU?
21:34:43  <TrueBrain> no, that is because we are sane human beings :D
21:35:23  <TrueBrain> it is so easy to stab with this brexit stuff :P
21:35:39  <andythenorth> how come you don't have to implement the EU rulings?
21:35:49  <andythenorth> it's only a Directive, maybe that's why
21:36:17  <TrueBrain> I know there are 2 types of EU "rules", one you have to adapt, the other which you have to implement
21:36:23  <TrueBrain> the first is strict, the second leaves more room
21:36:36  <andythenorth> Directive vs. Regulation, or vice versa
21:36:50  <TrueBrain> but I am just repeating what people have been trying to tell me
21:36:56  <TrueBrain> I find it rather boring :P
21:37:15  <andythenorth> I have had to learn all this in the last 2 weeks :P
21:37:23  <andythenorth> the funny thing about Brexit
21:37:26  <andythenorth> well there is more than one
21:37:38  <TrueBrain> I have a basic understanding of GDPR, and that is enough law-bla for me for the rest of my life
21:37:51  <andythenorth>  all our UK law is basically EU law for the forseeable future :P
21:37:54  <andythenorth> such lolz
21:37:58  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8217: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP
21:38:03  <andythenorth> we wrote it all into UK statute
21:38:11  <TrueBrain> except that a lot of EU customers don't agree that it is equal :)
21:38:16  <andythenorth> and we don't have a functioning parliament or government :)
21:38:22  <andythenorth> so no new law
21:38:37  <andythenorth> every day should contain more lolz
21:38:45  <TrueBrain> I have heard a lot of: we want our data to be in the EU, so NOT in the UK, lately .. with the addition: we don't want to be the first in court to find out if the UK law means the same as the EU law
21:39:28  <andythenorth> yes
21:39:34  <andythenorth> lolz unbounded
21:39:50  <TrueBrain> but the twitter thread earlier summarizes everything just fine :)
21:40:47  <andythenorth> ok is it time to automate my AWS deployment?
21:40:52  <andythenorth> or ad cloudfront for https?
21:40:54  <andythenorth> or sleep?
21:41:01  <TrueBrain> cloudfront for https, yes
21:41:03  <TrueBrain> but sleep first
21:41:05  <TrueBrain> AWS after
21:41:28  <andythenorth> sleep!
21:41:35  <andythenorth> tomorrow is more lolz
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21:41:58  <andythenorth> was cloudfront easy or hard?
21:42:02  <andythenorth> AWS docs seem quite good
21:42:13  <andythenorth> everything worked great so far
21:44:49  <TrueBrain> CloudFront is piss easy
21:44:52  <andythenorth> gr8
21:44:58  <andythenorth> I will do it while pissing
21:45:00  <andythenorth> one hand
21:45:01  <TrueBrain> make certificate, add CloudFront, point to S3, add Certificate
21:45:01  <TrueBrain> done
21:45:04  <andythenorth> rad
21:45:16  <TrueBrain> for certificate you need DNS validation if it is not hosted by Route53
21:45:23  <andythenorth> it is hosted by Route53
21:45:30  <andythenorth> tomorrow then!
21:45:31  <TrueBrain> it will do it for you if you press the button
21:45:39  <andythenorth> I will press the button after coffee
21:45:48  <andythenorth> then nobody can MITM my train pixels
21:45:50  <TrueBrain> the ONLY thing you might need to do, not sure, is a lambda@edge for / -> /index.html
21:45:57  <andythenorth> I read about that
21:46:05  <andythenorth> I don't rely on index pages for directories
21:46:06  <andythenorth> I think
21:46:17  <andythenorth> explicit paths to .html
21:46:26  <TrueBrain>
21:46:30  <TrueBrain> in case you do want to add it
21:46:34  <andythenorth> thanks
21:46:48  <TrueBrain> it is what OpenTTD uses :)
21:46:58  <TrueBrain> right, sleep time
21:47:00  <andythenorth> my world has always been do routes in the application stack or webserver
21:47:05  <andythenorth> edge stuff is new and funky
21:47:08  <andythenorth> anyway sleep
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21:49:44  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison commented on pull request #8217: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP
21:49:45  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison commented on pull request #8217: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP
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23:08:25  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz updated pull request #8217: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP
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23:21:08  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8217: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP
23:29:46  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8217: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP
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