Log for #openttd on 6th July 2020:
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03:36:24  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Moth-Tolias commented on pull request #7607: Feature Request/WIP: Rail Planner track builder
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06:33:41  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Hexus-One commented on pull request #7607: Feature Request/WIP: Rail Planner track builder
06:52:15  <CornsMcGowan[m]> hello
06:52:36  <CornsMcGowan[m]> could somebody unstale please
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09:15:59  <Eddi|zuHause> can't you just push to it to unstale?
09:18:25  <andythenorth> this auto body plant is awesome
09:18:34  <andythenorth> I can very definitely use that as inspiration
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10:29:58  <Timberwolf> Fancy working in the Longbridge Conveyor Bridge? ;)
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11:03:23  <andythenorth> Timberwolf how *do* you sprite so fast also?
11:03:41  <andythenorth> for Iron Horse 2 I was getting 2 trains done per calendar day (averaged)
11:03:48  <andythenorth> they're 8bpp and mostly copy-paste :P
11:05:48  <Timberwolf> Cheating.
11:06:00  <andythenorth> voxels?
11:06:07  <Timberwolf> I build everything in MagicaVoxel, then I have a bunch of stuff which renders them to sprites.
11:06:33  <Timberwolf> It does have some quality issues and the 8bpp 1x stuff is definitely way worse than hand-drawn.
11:06:37  <andythenorth> makes sense
11:06:46  <andythenorth> the 2x stuff looks great though
11:06:54  <Timberwolf> Thanks :)
11:07:03  <andythenorth> at 8bpp, I'm not really drawing the train, I'm drawing an impression of the train
11:07:14  <andythenorth> 1x / 8bpp /s
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11:07:27  <Timberwolf> I have been wondering how many outputs I'd need to correct manually to train a neural net to do it.
11:08:16  <andythenorth> from source images?
11:08:28  <Timberwolf> Not quite that ambitious :)
11:08:31  <Eddi|zuHause> there's some fun AI research papers on which subset of images you need to show to a human to tell the AI they're good/bad
11:08:57  <andythenorth> afaik, we're pretty good now at getting 3D shapes from photos?
11:09:03  <Timberwolf> Just taking the voxel renderer output and correcting things like company colours bleeding into the wrong place, etc.
11:09:07  <andythenorth> I don't know that for a fact mind :P
11:09:26  <andythenorth> you should teach it the common artefacts of a train gestalt
11:09:31  <andythenorth> windows, wheels, doors etc
11:09:32  <andythenorth> :P
11:10:35  <Eddi|zuHause> the point of the exercise is to find "dead end" AI behaviours where they think they figured it out, but it's some pathologic case that happens to be true for only a small subset of the problem
11:12:47  <Eddi|zuHause> say, if you wan to train an AI to flip a pancake in a pan. and you divide that into the first problem of "just balance the pan so the pancake stays off the floor as long as possible. the AI might decide that the optimal strategy is to fling it as high as possible, as that maximises the time it takes to hit the floor
11:14:00  <Eddi|zuHause> if you take sporadic screenshots of the AI doing its thing, and ask a human to judge whether the thing looks good or not, you can catch such "wrong" paths
11:36:53  <CornsMcGowan[m]> Eddi|zuHause: ive been pushing commits but it still has stale tag
11:38:00  <Eddi|zuHause> it's not like the tag has any real meaning anyway
11:38:21  <LordAro> CornsMcGowan[m]: it's a tag
11:38:26  <LordAro> there's nothing automatic about it
11:40:33  <CornsMcGowan[m]> andythenorth: Yeah photogrammetry works really well nowadays, but needs much higher resolutions than x1 sprites
11:40:50  <CornsMcGowan[m]> LordAro: ah i see
11:44:25  <CornsMcGowan[m]> re: bridges over bridges, is there any value that corresponds to the height of the upper part of the bridge? eg viaducts are short, girder is taller, suspension bridge is very tall
11:44:55  <LordAro> nope
11:45:02  <CornsMcGowan[m]> heck
11:45:34  <CornsMcGowan[m]> time to bake some in i guess
12:09:41  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Hexus-One updated pull request #7607: Feature: Rail/Road/Tram/Canal-Planner (WIP)
12:32:20  <andythenorth> lol
12:32:23  <andythenorth> that happened then :)
12:33:13  <LordAro> :D
12:35:04  <andythenorth> so good
12:35:08  <andythenorth> haven't tried it in game
12:41:44  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Hexus-One updated pull request #7607: Feature: Rail/Road/Tram/Canal-Planner (WIP)
12:42:51  <andythenorth> can approve? o_O
12:47:21  <CornsMcGowan[m]> whats the go with reviving closed PRs?
12:47:34  <CornsMcGowan[m]> e.g. i'm interested in this feature being pushed to trunk
12:48:11  <CornsMcGowan[m]> if aqueducts are indeed similar to tunnels then i think they should exhibit the same terraforming behaviours
12:48:15  <andythenorth> depends if it was closed as rejected, or closed due to the draining away of interest
12:48:24  <andythenorth> PRs for the second case can be re-opened
12:48:24  <CornsMcGowan[m]> closed from lack of interest it seems
12:48:28  <CornsMcGowan[m]> ah okay
12:48:33  <CornsMcGowan[m]> i will put my case forwards
12:48:35  <andythenorth> but it might well be cleaner to do do another new PR
12:49:03  <andythenorth> yeah I'd be prepared to re-open that one
12:49:30  <andythenorth> but if your solution isn't as per the original title, you might just want a new one
12:50:38  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Hexus-One commented on pull request #7078: Feature: Raise a corner of land automatically when building aqueducts
12:55:23  <andythenorth> ok I can't actually re-open it, button is disabled in GH
12:55:29  <CornsMcGowan[m]> oh lmao
12:55:33  <andythenorth> probably because the underlying branch has changed
12:56:05  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on pull request #7078: Feature: Raise a corner of land automatically when building aqueducts
12:56:09  <CornsMcGowan[m]> seems to be just a single commit
13:05:03  <CornsMcGowan[m]> last time i asked lordaro to reopen a PR, i needed to push a new commit to it first
13:05:07  <CornsMcGowan[m]> that might be what's needed
13:05:19  <LordAro> you needed to push the *original* commit to it
13:05:28  <LordAro> if a branch has been force pushed to, it can't be reopened
13:05:40  <CornsMcGowan[m]> oh?
13:05:40  <LordAro> (as far as github is concerned it's a new branch)
13:05:45  <CornsMcGowan[m]> i see
13:08:45  <CornsMcGowan[m]> oh man
13:08:57  <CornsMcGowan[m]> samuxarick PR'ed like a billion features/changes/fixes
13:09:54  <andythenorth> yes
13:09:59  <andythenorth> quite a lot got closed
13:10:27  <CornsMcGowan[m]> yeah i don't see a single one accepted
13:10:29  <CornsMcGowan[m]> unlucky :c
13:10:29  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Still hoping for someone to approve #150, then we can release without known bugs :p
13:12:17  <CornsMcGowan[m]> actually i have no way of telling if the branch PR was accepted
13:13:22  <LordAro> CornsMcGowan[m]: samu is quite good at finding issues, not so good at fixing them
13:13:36  <LordAro> not in the "correct" way, anyway
13:13:47  <LordAro> tends to miss the bigger picture
13:13:48  <CornsMcGowan[m]> oh?
13:14:21  <FLHerne> ISTR one or two of those did get merged, and turned out to cause regressions...
13:14:46  <LordAro> there's been a few
13:15:02  <LordAro> merged
13:25:12  <milek7> @seen Samu
13:25:12  <DorpsGek> milek7: Samu was last seen in #openttd 5 days, 2 hours, 12 minutes, and 24 seconds ago: <Samu> '.gitignore'
13:25:37  <CornsMcGowan[m]> whats a regression in this context
13:25:43  <CornsMcGowan[m]> oh nvm just googled it
13:25:48  <LordAro> other bugs
13:26:03  <CornsMcGowan[m]> so its a bug fix that causes more bugs
13:26:11  <LordAro> usually
13:26:13  <CornsMcGowan[m]> or bugs caused by the introduction of a bug fix
13:26:21  <LordAro> yeah
13:26:28  <CornsMcGowan[m]> ah i see
13:26:30  <LordAro> (we also have the regression AI tests)
13:26:44  <LordAro> which try to test for other unforeseen changes)
13:27:45  <CornsMcGowan[m]> spooky
13:29:23  <andythenorth> "#1 cause of software bugs is software changes"
13:29:31  * andythenorth abuses a google SRE statistic a bit
13:29:52  <CornsMcGowan[m]> hm
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13:34:11  <CornsMcGowan[m]> time to find that one line that enables bridges over bridges
13:36:46  <CornsMcGowan[m]> also: have underground canals ever been considered?
13:37:03  <andythenorth> yes
13:37:11  <CornsMcGowan[m]> ah
13:37:13  <CornsMcGowan[m]> rejected
13:37:14  <CornsMcGowan[m]> ?
13:37:15  <andythenorth> you mean tunnels?
13:37:16  <andythenorth>
13:37:22  <CornsMcGowan[m]> yeah tunnels
13:37:25  <CornsMcGowan[m]> had a brainfart :p
13:37:33  <andythenorth> visual clipping issue with most ships
13:37:40  <LordAro> can't make it work without horrendous clip-
13:37:41  <andythenorth> but then again
13:37:50  <CornsMcGowan[m]> oh i see
13:37:54  <andythenorth> tyler has just done a canal boats grf
13:37:58  <andythenorth> not sure if it's NRT or not
13:38:05  <CornsMcGowan[m]> oh the little tiny boats
13:38:11  <andythenorth> might be roads
13:38:27  <andythenorth>
13:39:09  <andythenorth> hmm
13:39:21  <andythenorth> if boats are done as road vehicles, they can be articulated
13:39:33  <CornsMcGowan[m]> boats as road vehicles...
13:39:37  <andythenorth> WWAY
13:39:42  <andythenorth> it's an NRT grf
13:39:51  <CornsMcGowan[m]> wowee
13:40:02  <andythenorth> there's also WETrail for ships as trains
13:40:38  <andythenorth> using the canal cheat, they can be routed 'across' water
13:40:51  <andythenorth> cheat / hax /s
13:42:14  <CornsMcGowan[m]> canal cheat :o
13:43:53  <andythenorth> I guess it's not really a cheat, just an artefact
13:44:15  <CornsMcGowan[m]> are canals just secretly all 6 rail directions overlaid
13:56:36  <CornsMcGowan[m]> <CornsMcGowan[m] "time to find that one line that "> found it
13:56:43  <CornsMcGowan[m]> lets see how glitchy this looks
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14:00:28  <CornsMcGowan[m]> nvm failed an assert when i tried to build
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14:30:38  <CornsMcGowan[m]> oh so some info about bridges is stored in the map data
14:30:58  <CornsMcGowan[m]> but is designed such that only one bridge can exist per tile
14:32:33  <LordAro> you're saying the system wasn't designed for more than one bridge?
14:32:35  <LordAro> i am SHOCKED
14:32:41  <CornsMcGowan[m]> lmao
14:32:48  <CornsMcGowan[m]> the game was rigged from the start
14:33:59  <CornsMcGowan[m]> how are tunnels stored, then
14:34:15  <LordAro> much the same, i belive
14:34:23  <LordAro> they're both fairly magic about it
14:35:31  <CornsMcGowan[m]> i wonder if tunnels over tunnels were permitted in TTD
14:36:11  <LordAro> they're permitted in OTTD, if you turn the cheat on
14:36:28  <LordAro> hmm, i guess not the same then
14:37:46  <CornsMcGowan[m]> oh i just mean like, at different height (z?) levels
14:38:19  <LordAro> good question
14:39:42  <CornsMcGowan[m]> tunnel_map.h shows tunnels are stored in m5, m6, m8 i think
14:39:46  <FLHerne> CornsMcGowan[m]: Yes
14:40:14  <CornsMcGowan[m]> FLHerne: re: tunnels over tunels in TTD?
14:40:26  <FLHerne> CornsMcGowan[m]: Yes
14:40:45  <FLHerne> Sorry, didn't scroll all the way down - re > are canals just secretly all 6 rail directions overlaid?
14:40:52  <CornsMcGowan[m]> ah sweet
14:41:05  <FLHerne> (which is why the ship pathfinder is so damn slow)
14:41:43  <CornsMcGowan[m]> oh man
14:42:00  <CornsMcGowan[m]> now i want to see the YAPF code
14:42:12  <LordAro> there be dragons
14:42:12  <CornsMcGowan[m]> but the paths are cached now right
14:42:25  <LordAro> yeah
14:42:33  <LordAro> (those come with a different set of problems, of course)
14:45:48  <CornsMcGowan[m]> ah i see
14:46:05  <CornsMcGowan[m]> okay i'm not focused enough to decipher yapf_ship.cpp
14:46:11  <CornsMcGowan[m]> even though i've implemented A* before
14:47:58  <LordAro> it's ok, A* isn't in there
14:48:12  <CornsMcGowan[m]> wait
14:48:13  <LordAro> i guarantee it's like no other A* you've seen before
14:48:19  <CornsMcGowan[m]> it's non-heuristic?
14:48:55  <LordAro> i imagine ships probably use manhatten distance
14:49:58  <FLHerne> I'm not sure that's true
14:50:01  <CornsMcGowan[m]> oh shouldn't they use DistanceMax instead
14:52:12  <LordAro> (disclaimer: i know very little about YAPF, other than it uses A* internally *somewhere*, and that it's template hell)
14:52:36  <CornsMcGowan[m]> ah
14:52:42  <CornsMcGowan[m]> ive heard of C++ templates before
14:52:47  <CornsMcGowan[m]> never learnt about them
14:54:21  <CornsMcGowan[m]> also yeah it uses a heuristic, tries to get as close as possible to the uh
14:55:38  <CornsMcGowan[m]> imo its needlessly accurate
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14:59:47  <trooper> hi
15:00:22  <trooper> is it ok not to release sources with grf under GPLv2?
15:00:40  <andythenorth> on request, or distributed with the grf?
15:01:17  <andythenorth> FSF has FAQs about this
15:01:23  <CornsMcGowan[m]> oh do you mean release grf as GPLv2 and then withhold the source?
15:02:04  <trooper> yes
15:02:11  <trooper> I asked for sources on the forum
15:02:31  <trooper> but people there say that it is ok not to release them
15:02:53  <LordAro> you don't technically have to actively release them, but you must provide them when requested
15:03:14  <andythenorth> the FAQs are all here
15:03:16  <andythenorth> search 'source'
15:03:26  <andythenorth> it's mostly clear
15:03:31  <andythenorth> there is one ambiguity
15:03:35  <trooper>
15:03:44  <andythenorth> all of the examples are about modifications to GPL licensed works
15:03:50  <nielsm> basically you have to at least include instructions on how to obtain the source and ensure anyone who wants the source can get it
15:04:01  <andythenorth> I didn't find anything about original authors being obliged to provide sources
15:04:05  <andythenorth> I'm sure that's covered somewhere
15:04:09  <trooper> can I ask them to provide sources of the set?
15:04:14  <andythenorth> you can and you did
15:04:57  <trooper> all the licencing mentioned with grfs releases is a bullshit ?
15:05:03  <trooper> all the licensing mentioned with grfs releases is a bullshit ?
15:06:19  <LordAro> well that's a full blown license dispute now
15:06:28  <nielsm> if they claim to be releasing the work under GPLv2 but refuse to give you the complete sources then they are not honouring their own license
15:06:57  <nielsm> they basically offered you the usage rights under false pretense
15:07:01  <andythenorth> oh there was more argument in the thread?
15:07:03  <andythenorth> I missed that
15:07:17  <LordAro> andythenorth: i just kept scrolling
15:07:30  <LordAro> dunno if there's anything previous
15:07:31  <trooper> check the last page
15:07:32  <andythenorth> I read it this morning, it has changed :P
15:08:14  <LordAro> i don't know if an author can retroactively change the license of something
15:08:16  <LordAro> i would guess not
15:08:21  <trooper> I'm just new to the community, I started my server about a week ago
15:08:50  <andythenorth> if I've understood correctly, they've invalidly licensed as GPL v2
15:08:55  <trooper> I never thought that it is legal not to release the sources covered by GPL
15:09:16  <trooper> I don't know
15:09:26  <trooper> they just don't provide sources by request
15:09:31  <andythenorth> if it was a valid GPL v2 license they would need to provide the sources
15:09:38  <andythenorth> but the GPL v2 is invalid
15:09:48  <andythenorth> as they don't have copyright permissions to apply GPL v2
15:09:58  <andythenorth> GPL is based on copyright, even though it's copyleft
15:10:00  <trooper> so do you mean that all licensing on banana is a bullshit?
15:10:08  <andythenorth> that is a big claim to be honest
15:10:17  <andythenorth> I don't understand how you escalate to that statement
15:10:25  <trooper> wait
15:10:31  <trooper> I just asked for a source
15:10:42  <trooper> I don't want to use it just examine
15:11:01  <nielsm> if they claim the GRF is GPLv2 licensed then you are in your right to demand the sources
15:11:07  <trooper> banana site says the set is licensed under GPLv2
15:11:17  <andythenorth> their license sounds like it's illegal
15:11:26  <andythenorth> you can't just steal things and GPL them
15:11:30  <andythenorth> that's not how it works
15:11:30  <trooper> community says that I can't ask for the sources
15:11:43  <trooper> I mean on that forum
15:11:44  <trooper> not here
15:11:46  <andythenorth> don't confuse 'community' with one dude in a thread
15:11:53  <andythenorth> that's such a fallacy
15:12:03  <trooper> ya ok
15:12:05  <andythenorth> dude / dudette / whatever / person
15:12:10  <nielsm> <andythenorth> you can't just steal things and GPL them  <-- but let's not consider whether reverse-engineering a commercial product is stealing sources
15:12:30  <andythenorth> 'apparently it's ok in Germany' or something nielsm
15:12:40  <andythenorth> but anyway, distractions :P
15:12:52  <andythenorth> it looks to me like CZ set have made a silly mistake
15:13:53  <trooper> lol I just wanted to translate the road set and I don't wont to dig into nfo....
15:14:17  <nielsm> are you turning this into an X/Y problem now? :)
15:14:33  <nielsm> if you want to translate then start out by offering that instead of asking for sources
15:15:35  <trooper> I don't want to wait for them to release a new version I'll do a hot fix in a new grw and send them a patch
15:15:43  <trooper> that is a usual way for opensource
15:16:13  <trooper> I did that for xUSSR set
15:17:19  <trooper> like this
15:17:47  <trooper> not sure why they refuse to provide nml
15:18:54  <glx> you can always use grfcodec to get NFO from GRF, but it's harder to read
15:19:31  <trooper> yep I did that and yes it is harder to read and I can't send them a patch
15:36:26  <Timberwolf> I'm never quite sure what you class as "source code" for a grf. In theory could you comply just by providing NML/NFO and PNG files?
15:37:43  <nielsm> if the development of the art involves 3D models that get rendered, and are not manually edited after rendering, then the 3D models would be the source
15:38:57  <nielsm> but GPL is very focused on software source code and is difficult to apply to other things
15:39:24  <Timberwolf> I think if you got as far as court you'd end up with a lot of arguining about 'The source code for a work means the preferred form of the work for making modifications to it.'
15:39:47  <nielsm> yeah
15:44:54  <trooper> at least it is the code they send to nml compiler
15:46:45  <andythenorth> the source is what is reasonably needed to build the project in a sensible workflow
15:46:55  <andythenorth> because GPL doesn't cover art assets, it would be a bunfight about those
15:47:14  <andythenorth> we've discussed it before, and 3D models would seem to be in scope
15:48:01  <andythenorth> but if those 3D models are on an incompatible public license (e.g. Creative Commons), there would be some caveats
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15:53:08  <trooper> they just refuse to provide any source even just sprites + nml
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15:59:03  <andythenorth> I have replied in the thread, this will get resolved
15:59:06  <andythenorth> one way or the other
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16:04:25  <trooper> ya I can't force them to release the sources so they will just disappear for a while...
16:05:48  <nielsm> we should add a way for ottd to load external language files for grf's
16:05:59  <nielsm> somehow
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16:08:47  <b_jonas> 1395 tons of oil? I didn't know oil well production can go so high
16:11:41  <milek7> some people don't subscribe to spirit of opensource
16:11:43  <milek7> there's so much drama and wars generated about who copied what, permissions, etc.. :(
16:11:53  <milek7> (not talking about ottd specifically)
16:13:16  <milek7> trooper: most likely it never was GPL
16:13:24  <milek7> just incorrect annotation
16:15:01  <b_jonas> but the extra zeroes always make it look bigger than it is
16:17:12  <trooper> milek7 hope they will not charge $$$ for using their GRF on my server
16:20:34  <Eddi|zuHause> trooper: thing is, if a thing is not legal, doesn't prevent anyone from doing it anyway
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16:22:15  <trooper> ya I know I know I'll just decompile their sources
16:22:28  <Eddi|zuHause> like the dude who's in charge of the police in our country, stopped a study about racial profiling because: "there can't be racial profiling because our rules of conduct forbid racial profiling"
16:23:27  <trooper> ya who cares about all these licensing bullshit
16:23:38  <trooper> just take what you can and use
16:24:49  <Eddi|zuHause> well, people should care about it, but a bunch of them don't take it as seriously as they should
16:29:13  <andythenorth> nielsm +1 to external files
16:29:28  <andythenorth> I'm not sure I ever want random language translation PRs arriving on my machine again
16:29:38  <andythenorth> it's just one extra thing to be concerned about
16:29:52  <andythenorth> I'd rather see translations provided elsewhere
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16:35:13  <b_jonas> I'm adding second stops in some cities to my vac train lines to collect more passengers
16:41:01  <andythenorth> trooper I can't be arsed with the forum thread, as it will just descend into nitpick madness....
16:41:17  <andythenorth> you can't make a valid GPL claim against an invalid GPL license
16:41:52  <andythenorth> if they 'licensed' illegally, the GPL is not in effect
16:45:40  <trooper> what is in effect then?
16:45:54  <trooper> can I use their GRF on my server?
16:46:00  <andythenorth> it's complete shambles
16:46:01  <trooper> or they will ask me to pay them
16:46:04  <trooper> ?
16:46:19  <trooper> they include GPL with GRF what does this mean?
16:46:32  <andythenorth> in this case, nothing, if what they say is true
16:47:11  <andythenorth> it should not be distributed as GPL if it's not valid GPL
16:47:16  <trooper> what is more true a licence.txt next to grf in a tar archive or "someone" words on the tt-forum?
16:48:21  <andythenorth> I understand the question, but it's not a useful question
16:49:13  <andythenorth> GPL is based on licence.txt being trustworthy
16:49:22  <andythenorth> but it cannot enforce that license.txt is legal
16:49:40  <andythenorth> simply adding license.txt doesn't make a thing valid GPL, that would be woo
16:50:02  <trooper> tey already signed BANANA TOS
16:50:26  <trooper> where they claim that they own all sources
16:50:54  <trooper> are you trying to say that licenses mean nothing and I can just ignore them?
16:51:50  <Eddi|zuHause> frankly, if they don't have a valid license, bananas should just remove their grf and be done with it
16:51:59  <andythenorth> are you wilfully misunderstanding trooper ?
16:52:05  <andythenorth> or is it lost in translation?
16:52:31  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause I am minded the same way
16:52:44  <andythenorth> I don't know about all the bollocks around not breaking precious savegames
16:52:55  <trooper> umm removing from banana is a bad I dea
16:52:57  <trooper> umm removing from banana is a bad I dea
16:53:05  <andythenorth> TrueBrain if a grf claims to be GPL but isn't, is that a bananas takedown y|n? (sorry)
16:53:16  <Eddi|zuHause> doesn't matter if they couldn't license it gpl in the first place, or violated gpl by not responding to a source code request properly (and thus voiding the GPL)
16:53:33  <andythenorth> if we're distributing illegal content, we can be DMCAed
16:53:34  <andythenorth> that's bad
16:53:47  <andythenorth> it's a pain in the arse and creates admin work
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17:02:01  <CornsMcGowan[m]> fixed the jgrpp compile problem
17:02:08  <CornsMcGowan[m]> with newgrf_version being different
17:02:24  <CornsMcGowan[m]> by..hand editing the value in rev.cpp
17:02:59  *** Wolf01 has joined #openttd
17:05:01  <Borg> b_jonas: smooth economy on?
17:05:22  <CornsMcGowan[m]> yes
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17:13:24  <dP> if I understand gpl correctly it's illegal to distribute stuff that has no available sources
17:13:40  <dP> more interesting problem is that it probably applies to half of bananas content xD
17:13:54  <andythenorth> it's not illegal to do that
17:14:06  <dP> andythenorth, "For example, if you distribute copies of such a program, whether gratis or for a fee, you must give the recipients all the rights that you have. You must make sure that they, too, receive or can get the source code"
17:14:25  <andythenorth> yeah, actually I think you're right
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17:15:39  <dP> andythenorth, that's kind of the whole point of copyleft :p
17:20:55  <trooper> ahaha lol
17:21:02  <trooper> I can't beleve my eyes
17:21:06  <b_jonas> Borg: yes, smooth economy changes is on
17:21:41  <trooper> they say  You sound like we are OBLIGED to post our sources like it was MANDATORY. Quick news - we are not.
17:21:42  <andythenorth> dP what does 'has no available' mean to you?
17:21:56  <trooper> GPL Opensource ahahahaaaa muhahahah
17:22:11  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: that question is difficult to answer without context; do you perceive it as not being GPL or is it clear that it violated? :)
17:22:40  <trooper> LICENCE.txt is included in tar and can be opened ingame
17:22:58  <dP> andythenorth, well, whatever it means in gpl, it allows to provide it by request iirc but I that even if you find authors for many old grf they could still find those sources xD
17:23:36  <dP> * I doubt
17:24:07  <dP> also bananas kinda have to "make sure" whatever that means :p
17:24:11  <TrueBrain> if you as author no longer have the source of GPL code, there isn't really any issue ;)
17:24:25  <TrueBrain> GPL is about if I take your source, modify it, I have to be able to hand over the source upon request
17:24:30  <andythenorth> dP do we modify the source?
17:24:40  <andythenorth> sorry, the work
17:24:42  <andythenorth> we don't modify
17:24:48  <andythenorth> (as bananas)
17:25:39  <TrueBrain> but andythenorth , why are you bring this up anyway? License discussions often only lead to weird discussions with no end, as everyone is a lawyer ;)
17:26:00  <dP> TrueBrain, well I cited gpl v2 few messages earlier, distributor of binaries have to make sure sources are available.
17:26:16  <TrueBrain> dP: and who can challenge if they don't? :D
17:26:19  <dP> TrueBrain, it may not be a real issue in case of lost source but still a violation of gpl if you ask me :p
17:26:39  <TrueBrain> violation a license the owner of that license doesn't care about, is a bit of a mute argument ;)
17:27:35  <trooper>
17:27:43  <TrueBrain> I wonder what a court will say about it ... "JUDGE! I want that I pay myself 20,000 euro in fines! This is not acceptable that I violated my own license!" :D
17:29:17  <TrueBrain> but as mention, all I saw was andythenorth walk to a firepit, put on some food, a jerrycan of gasoline, lit it, and walked away in silent :)
17:29:55  * Timberwolf is getting lost in the wormhole of autolitigation cases.
17:30:58  <Timberwolf> Looks like they generally get thrown out :)
17:31:18  <trooper> banana and ff-forum is really in a bad situation as they "distribute" illegal content
17:31:56  <dP> TrueBrain, well, what start of this drama is here:
17:32:08  <TrueBrain> trooper: is that a statement, or a question?
17:32:14  <dP> TrueBrain, author of grf licensed under gpl v2 admitted the can't share sources
17:32:30  <TrueBrain> trooper: as be VERY careful, there is a HUGE difference between the license and the right to distribute
17:32:54  <TrueBrain> dP: I will read, but I am not aware the license owner has to show source :)
17:33:26  <TrueBrain> well, you would be in violation of your own license, but meh :)
17:33:34  <trooper> TrueBrain I just asked the source of GPLv2 set to make my translation
17:33:44  <trooper> and it turned into all this shit
17:34:16  <TrueBrain> trooper: that happens :) 90% of the population doesn't understand licenses, and of the remaining 10% too few give a fuck .. which is not a good state, but says a lot about how complex licenses have become :) So that is no real surprise to me, tbh
17:34:20  <TrueBrain> let me read up a bit
17:34:43  <dP> TrueBrain, yes ofc you can't force sources out of them, but main question here is about bananas
17:35:04  <TrueBrain> there you mix up license vs distribution rights :)
17:35:18  <trooper> I don't want to do any harm to bananas or ottd or other devs & authors
17:35:30  <TrueBrain> random quotes, just to give a bit of background:
17:35:36  <TrueBrain> trooper: "The problem is that you can't change the license of the content that was already released under GPLv2" <- an author can always change license
17:35:50  <TrueBrain> he is the copyright owner, he can do what-ever-the-fuck-he-wants, in basic terms :)
17:36:06  <TrueBrain> you do need permission of ALL authors btw
17:36:08  <trooper> TrueBrain to new releases
17:36:32  <dP> TrueBrain, author can change license for a new content, that doesn't make old one magically legal
17:36:38  <trooper> you can't make an free software be not free
17:36:49  <andythenorth> you can't make a not free software be free
17:36:53  <TrueBrain> dP: again, it feels like you are conflicted about license vs distribution here :)
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17:37:03  <TrueBrain> but that might be my interpretation of what you say :)
17:37:20  <TrueBrain> trooper: the binary out there will remain to have its license as it; new ones can change
17:37:29  <TrueBrain> this is not bound to "releases" in the sense we normally see releases
17:37:35  <TrueBrain> which makes it a bit .. weird
17:37:36  <dP> TrueBrain, well, mb, since I don't know the difference xD but in my eyes gpl covers distribution as well
17:37:37  <trooper> andythenorth> you can't make a not free software be free --- TRUE
17:37:42  <trooper> you need a new release
17:37:49  <TrueBrain> but they can republish their grf again with another license, with no changes what so ever
17:37:59  <andythenorth> the current grf is a copyright violation, according to the thread
17:38:19  <TrueBrain> dP: what I mean is: as long as the original author uploaded the GRF, our ToS gives us permission to redistribute their files
17:38:24  <TrueBrain> this is the right to distribute they grant us
17:38:35  <TrueBrain> this from time to time breaks if people fuck up, and upload content they do not own
17:38:45  <TrueBrain> which is why we pull down files from time to time
17:38:46  <dP> TrueBrain, our tos does, but gpl doesn't
17:39:02  <andythenorth> GPL is actually irrelevant to the bananas question
17:39:11  <TrueBrain> our ToS gives us right to distribute; it superseeds any license, if it even mentions it
17:39:26  <TrueBrain> the other content we pull down, is if content is in clear violation of a license of someone else
17:39:40  <TrueBrain> say, you take a closed-source-DO-NOT-COPY license GRF, repack it, and upload it
17:39:46  <dP> TrueBrain, if I write a tos to give myself rights to sell windows does that make it legal?
17:39:49  <TrueBrain> we will pull that down, as you are clearly in violation of the other's license
17:40:00  <TrueBrain> dP: again, distribution rights
17:40:18  <TrueBrain> the ToS gives us a (limited) distribution license for files uploaded
17:40:28  <nielsm> GPL allows anyone to redistribute the work
17:40:48  <TrueBrain> nielsm: providing source, yes :)
17:40:50  <TrueBrain> :D
17:41:08  <TrueBrain> but what I am trying to say: BaNaNaS has little to do with the license of the uploaded content
17:41:40  <TrueBrain> the only exception being as I mentioned above, if an author challenge his use of his license on other content (which sadly enough happens)
17:41:48  <andythenorth> the only question for bananas: is this a copyright violation?
17:42:01  <TrueBrain> which only the original author can challenge, basically
17:42:04  <andythenorth> nobody has filed a request with us AFAIK
17:42:16  <andythenorth> we have evidence that it *is* a copyright violation
17:42:22  <andythenorth> but we haven't been asked to act
17:42:30  <TrueBrain> of course in most countries you have this concept of willfully distribution of illegal content
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17:42:39  <TrueBrain> but this is not illegal content in any sense
17:43:01  <nielsm> well I suppose, for content with a copyleft license bananas ought to require the author to also upload the sources, so bananas can redistribute those as well
17:43:02  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: I even disagree on that; this feels like an overreaction to people who did not understand licenses correctly
17:43:12  <TrueBrain> the best solution is for them to upload a new version with the correct license
17:43:24  <andythenorth> yes
17:43:38  <andythenorth> this is only civil law, and civil law works on the basis of remedies
17:43:40  <TrueBrain> nielsm: that is not the job of a distribution platform; but it would solve people picking wrong licenses
17:43:42  <andythenorth> there is a simple remedy here
17:43:51  <andythenorth> change the license, it was an honest mistake
17:43:58  <TrueBrain> a good addition would be to add to the web-interface a notice with these licenses: the spirit of the license is that you distribute your source code
17:45:02  <trooper> you can't change the license of the released libs
17:45:15  <TrueBrain> people make mistakes; that is part of life
17:45:19  <trooper> just delete them
17:45:28  <TrueBrain> either of two things happen: either they upload a new version with the right license, or they ragequit
17:45:28  <trooper> this is the only possible option
17:45:33  <TrueBrain> not sure if the latter benefits anyone
17:45:43  <TrueBrain> trooper: don't talk in extremes; it is pointless
17:45:49  <TrueBrain> in your opinion, it is the only possible option
17:45:55  <TrueBrain> in reality, there is a lot of grey area
17:46:03  <trooper> I used their sprites in my work
17:46:07  <trooper> what should I do?
17:46:25  <TrueBrain> well, I would debate that as long as you can supply your source, you are fine ;)
17:46:30  <TrueBrain> (as long as you base it on their old work)
17:46:44  <trooper> I need to provide sources
17:46:47  <trooper> of their work
17:46:49  <trooper> but I can't
17:47:02  <milek7> well, you probably can't use it
17:47:04  <andythenorth> you have a wide range of options
17:47:08  <trooper> lol
17:47:13  <andythenorth> you could remove their work from your work
17:47:15  <TrueBrain> milek7: I don't see why not, tbh
17:47:18  <milek7> GPL notice was mistake
17:47:19  <andythenorth> that is a remedy
17:47:29  <