Log for #openttd on 8th July 2020:
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00:16:38  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8217: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP
00:42:32  <CornsMcGowan[m]> vcpkg, you need to checkout an older tag
00:43:11  <glx> CornsMcGowan[m]: only for non cmake
00:43:44  <CornsMcGowan[m]> :0
00:43:53  <CornsMcGowan[m]> oh its v453000 :0
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00:58:39  <CornsMcGowan[m]> whats the usual size of network commands? (in bytes)
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02:47:11  <CornsMcGowan[m]> also, i remember there being a document that explains the different between files like uh
02:47:25  <CornsMcGowan[m]> viewport.h, viewport.cpp, viewport_type.h and viewport_func.h
02:47:30  <CornsMcGowan[m]> does anybody know where it is?
02:47:49  <CornsMcGowan[m]> oh theres no viewport.h
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03:07:51  <Eddi|zuHause> there was a really old and outdated set of wikipages called "dev black book" or something
03:13:24  <CornsMcGowan[m]> :0
03:14:29  <CornsMcGowan[m]> got redirected here
03:14:33  <CornsMcGowan[m]>
03:19:04  <Eddi|zuHause> like i said, outdated
03:19:38  <CornsMcGowan[m]> fair enough
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04:47:43  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] HotelCalifornia commented on issue #8201: Consider upgrading CMake to latest release
05:02:50  <CornsMcGowan[m]> any way i can control a loop within OnRealtimeTick() to only execute for a fixed amount of time (say 1millisecond)
05:03:18  <CornsMcGowan[m]> i don't know what timing functions i should use
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07:32:39  <CornsMcGowan[m]> i guess i should use whatever the framerate window uses
07:42:54  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] fsimonis commented on issue #8201: Consider upgrading CMake to latest release
07:47:52  <nielsm> CornsMcGowan[m]: yes, use the <chrono> header
07:48:14  <nielsm> remember to stick to the C++11 things if you intend to get merged into master
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07:49:27  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] fsimonis commented on issue #8200: Consider upgrading to C++17
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09:02:21  <CornsMcGowan[m]> tyvm
09:10:16  <CornsMcGowan[m]> wait what new C++17 features are there
09:10:19  <CornsMcGowan[m]> i should google this
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10:06:43  <CornsMcGowan[m]> should i be worried about the performance of selecting large areas (eg demolish, landscape or tree tools) in debug build?
10:27:17  <planetmaker> oh how lovely. Someone complaining that we don't distribute sources for the newgrfs under GPL. Told him to check our TOS - and to ask authors of the NewGRFs for source.
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11:12:09  <andythenorth_> planetmaker presumably trooper?
11:12:29  <andythenorth_> if so, it's already had quite enough discussion
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11:32:15  <planetmaker> andythenorth_, dunno... Mikhail A
11:32:28  <andythenorth_> about CZ set?
11:32:40  <planetmaker> no. Going the very broad general way
11:32:47  <andythenorth_> hmm dunno then
11:32:53  <planetmaker> "you distribute stuff under GPL, thus you must distribute its sources"
11:33:14  <andythenorth_> I don't want to say person A is person B if is B is someone else
11:33:23  <andythenorth_> but all this was covered on Monday
11:33:50  <andythenorth_> it's what you said already, we don't 'distribute' in the way GPL means
11:34:04  <andythenorth_> we're just plumbing / pipes / media
11:34:36  <andythenorth_> there was some blah blah around it here and in forums relating to CZ set, Pikka seems to have deleted it from forums though
11:35:28  <andythenorth_> 'nothing to see, move on' :)
11:36:05  <planetmaker> he :)
11:36:38  <planetmaker> well, that guy replied already. And seems to not have understood my answer, that we have a special license as by our TOS, thus GPL requirements do not apply for us...
11:37:23  <andythenorth_> logs from Monday will show TB explaining it
11:37:39  <andythenorth_> or you could leave it alone and get on with life :)
11:38:08  <planetmaker> I shall not reply further :)
11:38:19  <planetmaker> things which needed saying have been said :)
11:39:39  <planetmaker> @logs
11:39:39  <DorpsGek> planetmaker:
11:39:51  <SpComb> yeah, you have a separate license to distribute via the bananas tos, so the GPL isn't really relevant
11:42:11  <SpComb> did the uploader re-upload it with a different license?
11:45:33  <LordAro> definitely sounds like trooper
11:53:35  <SpComb> the uploader might be breaking something by attaching a GPL license to something that they are not the sole author of, and the other authors clearly didn't intend it to be under the GPL. If I was one of those other authors, I would certainly complain that my works are being improperly distributed
11:54:39  <planetmaker> yes... if. like :P
11:54:54  <planetmaker> which were actually banned from bananannas
11:55:27  <planetmaker> I couldn't be arsed to file a DMCA to github about it, though
11:55:56  <andythenorth_> TB was quite clear, we get a complaint, we take it down
11:56:01  <andythenorth_> no complaint, no action
11:56:06  <planetmaker> sure thing
11:56:10  <andythenorth_> complaint = from copyright owner
11:56:14  <planetmaker> but a valid complaint...^^^
11:56:31  <andythenorth_> has to be valid yes +1
11:56:48  <planetmaker> that has always been our position. And it's the only one you can take as content distributor as we are in this case
11:57:29  <planetmaker> especially as we ask the uploader to ensure that s/he is allowed to upload what is being uploaded... so... yes
11:58:46  <SpComb> downloading something with a GPL license attached doesn't really give you any special rights. If you don't have the source, then you cannot comply with the license and benefit from being able to redistribute. Whoever distributed it to you may be breaking the original author's copyright, unless they are the copyright holders or have a separate license to distribute
11:59:58  <dP> there can be some notification on bananas or something if invalid license was used though
12:00:18  <dP> just so someone else who uses that seemingly gpled content doesn't get complaints out of the blue
12:00:18  <planetmaker> strictly speaking, that's problematic for any set which is developed by more than one person. It would need permission by each contributor
12:00:54  <planetmaker> however, those who use this license in OpenTTD context mean to use it in the way it is being used...
12:01:20  <planetmaker> @dP, what makes the license invalid and how do you tell?
12:02:06  <planetmaker> seems totally impractical. You basically... ask for an upload filter and manual review of each upload. Which basically means the service ceases to exist.
12:02:16  <dP> planetmaker, well, author of said grf admitting he used the wrong license should be enough to tell :p
12:02:21  <planetmaker> Luckily we are not there yet
12:03:48  <andythenorth_> if we *know* the license is invalid we would ideally take it down, as we shouldn't be distributing poisoned GPL things, it makes a mess for people who reuse
12:03:54  <andythenorth_> but our ToS don't say that
12:03:55  <andythenorth_> so eh
12:03:59  <andythenorth_> it is what it is
13:34:12  <supermop_Home> yo
13:35:03  <andythenorth_> yo
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15:09:20  <TrueBrain> <planetmaker> andythenorth_, dunno... Mikhail A <- without reading most of the rest of the conversation, yes, that is trooper; see the forum for that evidence :)
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15:09:56  <andythenorth_> pikka has deleted it from the forum
15:10:05  <planetmaker> yep
15:10:07  <TrueBrain> ah; well, then believe me with my blue eyes :)
15:10:11  <TrueBrain> which I do not have :P
15:10:13  <andythenorth_> I believe you :)
15:10:15  <andythenorth_> all of it
15:10:17  <planetmaker> but from what remains,that's still conclusive
15:10:44  <planetmaker> however *I* do have a copyright case for relasing the source of the CZTR :P
15:11:03  <TrueBrain> go for it :P
15:11:11  <TrueBrain> you want me to reply on his mail btw?
15:11:25  <planetmaker> whose / which?
15:11:31  <TrueBrain> trooper, info@
15:11:38  <planetmaker> not to his 2nd
15:11:53  <planetmaker> I replied to the first. The 2nd proves he didn't read/understand my 1st
15:11:55  <TrueBrain> your reply on the first was nice btw :)
15:12:11  <TrueBrain> yeah, so we can reply to him: we told you this on IRC too already, you misunderstand licensing
15:12:19  <TrueBrain> but we can also just not reply :) all the same to me!
15:13:09  <TrueBrain> I love how he things licenses stack :) The dual-license concept is completely lost on him :)
15:13:36  <TrueBrain> but good to see he still hasn't took our advise to heart: learn to communicate in a polite way
15:14:57  <TrueBrain> "your opinion on how licenses work is not relevant; please contact the original author to figure this out" :D
15:15:39  <andythenorth_> so much words :)
15:15:46  <andythenorth_> did anyone sort out my IAM identities yet?
15:15:52  <andythenorth_> what? Only I can do that?
15:15:54  <andythenorth_> outrage
15:16:45  <TrueBrain> it just saddens me that people can get in this mode of "harm was done to me, so now everything has to burn with me" :( This is an Open Source game, run for free .. give it some slack .. meh
15:17:23  <andythenorth_> don't be sad Truebrain!
15:17:28  <andythenorth_> it's only cartoon tanks!
15:17:31  <andythenorth_> oh wait, wrong game
15:34:02  <andythenorth_> lol the problems we have
15:34:08  <andythenorth_> and the problems in Blitz
15:34:12  <andythenorth_> are so different
15:34:22  <andythenorth_> a 5-min MMORG tank game, made in Belarus
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15:34:51  <andythenorth_> played by children, pepe teenagers, and russian gopniks
15:34:55  <andythenorth_> and men who've been in the army
15:35:03  <andythenorth_> and men who would never ever survive the army, but wish they were hard
15:35:15  <andythenorth_> and then worst of all, people like me
15:35:50  <andythenorth_> they banned most of the user chat recently, which is both great, and takes some of the fun away
15:36:38  <SpComb> cyka blyat
15:36:45  <andythenorth_> cyka
15:36:56  <andythenorth_> noob
15:36:57  <andythenorth_> bot
15:37:03  <andythenorth_> kid
15:37:12  <andythenorth_> lol the people who think 'kid' is this major diss
15:37:24  <andythenorth_> that's how you know they're 13
15:43:42  <CornsMcGowan[m]> not major but i guess its somewhat disrespectful
15:44:58  <andythenorth_> well they also say stuff like "I hope you and all your family die"
15:45:11  <andythenorth_> so ya know, as that goes 'kid' is no drama
15:45:27  <andythenorth_> I never know whether the pepe ones are really alt-right, or just out to trigger the libs
15:45:37  <andythenorth_> I bet they don't quite know either
15:45:46  <LordAro> there's a certain amount of thoughtfulness, they did think of your family as well
15:49:18  <CornsMcGowan[m]> pepe faces get used by everybody nowadays
15:49:29  <CornsMcGowan[m]> regardless of political leaning
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16:19:28  <CornsMcGowan[m]> what do i use to print to debug?
16:24:27  <LordAro> DEBUG(), funnily enough
16:34:40  <dP> I usually just fprintf(stderr,...)
16:34:50  <LordAro> (so do i)
16:35:40  <dP> works without includes, always know how to use, easy to grep when done
16:38:07  <dP> though for server I have some nice functions with fmt stuff so I don't have to deal with % formatting shit
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17:17:37  <dP> crazy idea of the day: make in-game advisor that suggests good money-making options
17:19:59  <frosch123> are you referring to subsidies or to busy bee gs?
17:20:15  <dP> frosch123, god no
17:21:07  <dP> well, I guess subsidies could be an alternative if they actually suggested anything good
17:21:45  <dP> though advisor could work in mp while subsides don't really go well there
17:23:09  <andythenorth_> crazy idea of the day: draw the missing industries for FIRS v4
17:23:11  <andythenorth_> oof :)
17:23:15  * andythenorth_ should do stuff
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17:24:13  <andythenorth_> also beer?
17:27:59  <Borg> dP: crazy idea indeed... ;) in vanilla OpenTTD making money is damn easy...
17:28:17  <Borg> anyway... 2017... Monorail
17:28:37  <dP> Borg, in any openttd it's easy, but idea is to help new players so they can actually play instead of struggling to survive
17:28:42  <Borg> operating profit... between +330000$ and +87000 yearly...
17:29:09  <Borg> dP: come on.. its a part of a game...
17:29:17  <Borg> few failures.. and boom... you got it..
17:29:28  <Borg> also there are shitload of game tutorials
17:29:43  <dP> Borg, idk, to me it seems 90% of players newer get past that part
17:30:04  <Borg> really? if they do.. its good they gone ;)
17:30:27  <Borg> but. of coz.. go do it :) if you feel its fine...
17:30:47  <Borg> I strugle.. to make game harder and more interesting..
17:31:14  <dP> who said I'm going to do it? it's just a crazy idea :p
17:31:27  <Borg> 2 new GS things got my atention for a while :) auto loan + tax
17:31:36  * dP working on 1mil CB server right now
17:31:48  <Borg> CB server?
17:31:56  <Borg> aaa city builder
17:32:08  <Borg> CB = callback server? I was like wtf
17:32:09  <Borg> ;D
17:32:27  <dP> Borg, yeah, you can check it out if you want, it's running on citymania test server
17:32:38  <Borg> I like city builder GS scripts.. kinda nice.. too bad games end so quick ;)
17:32:44  <dP> Borg, only 3 people managed to finish it so far iirc
17:32:55  <Borg> whats goal and limitations?
17:33:02  <Borg> im kinda.. sandbox player... really..
17:33:07  <Borg> love loooong games..
17:33:14  <Borg> for me.. game really start after 2001 :D
17:33:19  <Borg> but I usualy start at 1960
17:34:19  <dP> ehm, "sandbox" and "make game harder" are like polar opposites :p
17:34:38  <Borg> ok.. maybe not harder.. but more.. interesting and chalenging..
17:34:59  <dP> and best score for 1 mil is 9 hours currrently so it's not exactly a short game xD
17:35:11  <dP> though I guess it's doable in like 4 by a good team
17:35:40  <Borg> oh... well.. :) maybe I will take a look. when I will get bored w/ BSPI
17:35:49  <Borg> but I run server for months.... (single game)
17:36:07  <Borg> last game I ended in 2700 or so..
17:37:29  <nielsm> transport fever 2 released a major update that looks like it has added extensive game scripting support (lua based), so you can add custom behaviour there now
17:38:12  <Eddi|zuHause> i haven't checked in a while, but are there curved stations meanwhile (again)?
17:38:20  <Borg> dP: whats server name?
17:38:47  <dP> Borg, well, it's hard to stay focused more than few hours so for competitive game 9 hours is already very long
17:38:48  <nielsm> Eddi|zuHause: the new scripting probably allows you to generate curved stations dynamically too
17:38:59  <dP> Borg, citymania test
17:39:06  <nielsm> but I haven't looked in detail on it either yet
17:39:13  <Borg> dP: true.. thats why I prefer to play sandbox.. I play openttd to relax.. not to compete..
17:39:22  <Borg> or.. soft compete.. :) if anything
17:39:23  <Eddi|zuHause> the whole station module system looked good on paper, but when playing it wasn't quite right...
17:39:37  <Borg> oh. I need to update openttd... or rather side install
17:39:38  <Eddi|zuHause> especially the road stations
17:40:34  <dP> Borg, yeah, a lot of people play like that, pretending to compete but not really :)
17:40:35  <nielsm> yeah the trf2 road stations are annoying to build and the modules don't always do what I expect them to... and the modular stations cause huge updates across the entire map it seems, building a single module freezes the game for far too long
17:42:22  <Wolf01> Bah, again want to do nothing... I'm like worried about getting bored, so I get bored
17:44:33  <dP> oh, another crazy idea I forgot: allow several currencies/resources
17:44:40  <dP> kinda like mashinky
17:45:37  <dP> only for GS I guess
17:45:47  <dP> one example can be energy "coin"
17:46:05  <dP> produced on power plant, used for... something xD
17:46:22  <dP> like, electric trains running cost
17:47:10  <dP> or to make road and rail pieces a limited resource
17:47:29  <dP> or research points...
17:47:36  <CornsMcGowan[m]> which of steady clock or high resolution clock should i use? framerate window uses high res but several websites suggest steady clock
17:48:05  <Borg> doh dP .... whats going on there?
17:48:08  <CornsMcGowan[m]> although i dont need much accuracy (loop for 2ms)
17:48:10  <Borg> I see gazylions of industries....
17:48:46  <dP> CornsMcGowan[m], if you're still doing those planner tools you probably better not use any
17:49:07  <dP> CornsMcGowan[m], ah, for cutting of pathfinding though... nvm
17:49:30  <nielsm> CornsMcGowan[m]: I think on most implementations high res and steady are the same
17:49:43  <dP> Borg, ehm, stuff xD there is some info in the story book
17:49:44  <CornsMcGowan[m]> mm yeah to only calculate for a certain period per realtime tick
17:49:51  <CornsMcGowan[m]> ah i see
17:49:55  <nielsm> but if you want to measure 2 ms you should use one that has at least microsecond precision
17:50:11  <CornsMcGowan[m]> guess i'll follow the precedent set in the codebase (highres)
17:50:59  <Borg> dP: timeout?
17:51:39  <Borg> dP: too dense to my taste..
17:51:46  <Borg> too many cities.. and industries..
17:52:08  <dP> Borg, yeah, my vpn is lagging
17:52:15  <dP> Borg, you need a lot of stuff for 1 mil
17:52:18  <Borg> why the hell you play over vpn? ;)
17:52:43  <Borg> dP: I wonder how it would mix w/ BSPI.. :D
17:52:47  <dP> Borg, also makes picking spots a bit more interesting than just sorting industry list by production
17:53:55  <dP> Borg, i do everything over vpn, also it's usually not that bad
17:54:05  <dP> Borg, I've no idea what BSPI does
17:54:47  <Borg> dP:
17:56:50  <dP> Borg, it's hard to understand gameplay implications by just reading
17:57:14  <Borg> yeah.. I read game mechanics... interesting stuff
17:58:16  <Borg> dP: in minial settings.. BSPI should not change much... except it have stockpiling industries...
17:58:39  <nielsm> BSPI forces you to complete the cargo chains since otherwise the stockpiles overflow and you don't get paid for delivery
17:58:46  <Borg> yep..
17:58:57  <Borg> hence you need to grow ciiities
17:59:12  <Borg> at least to the point they accept goods..
17:59:38  <Borg> also.. full complete is not that necessary.. you can provide minimal amounts.. and they will vanish at minimum 4% production ;)
17:59:44  <Borg> small profits.. but at begining it will do
17:59:44  <dP> well, usually stuff with its own agenda doesn't mix well with goal games unless they're specifically designed for it
17:59:49  <dP> like cargodist for example
18:00:09  <Borg> yeah.. quite possible..
18:01:50  <nielsm> BSPI would pair well with a GS that ensures every town with a secondary industry also has a power plant, at the minimum
18:01:54  <dP> I'd like to make some newgrf servers but probably not very soon
18:02:10  <nielsm> and in general something that controls where the secondary industries are placed perhaps
18:02:11  <dP> as imo they should look and feel very different from vanilla and that's a lot of work xD
18:02:38  <dP> nielsm, that's easy
18:02:39  <Borg> nielsm: why? :)
18:02:59  <Borg> nielsm: I fixed it differently.. first.. my GS preseed industries...
18:03:16  <Borg> then.. for 20 years. rebuilds them... after that.. player need to found them constantly..
18:03:36  <Borg> also... w/ autoloan.. you can build your own powerstation.. if you really need it.. costly.. but.. may pay off
18:03:54  <Borg> auto loan can have limit up to 25M gbp
18:03:59  <Borg> so plenty of money..
18:04:08  <Borg> but that model is of course fun for sandbox..
18:04:13  <Borg> not competetive..
18:05:08  <nielsm> hm, can GS set a company's loan to something wild disregarding the game settings max loan?
18:05:13  <dP> funding stuff isn't an issue in competive
18:05:18  <Borg> nielsm: no..
18:05:22  <Borg> I do it internally in GS
18:05:25  <dP> even for that 1 mil top players fund a lot
18:05:26  <nielsm> that's silly
18:05:40  <Borg> dont ask me :)
18:06:45  <nielsm> I want to have a subsidy GS where you promise a town to provide a service, get some funds to set up the service (ahead-of-time subsidy), and if you fail to do it then those funds turn into debt
18:07:05  <Borg> hmm douable probably :)
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18:09:01  <dP> nielsm, promise a service -> get money -> "local authority refuses to allow this" :p
18:12:29  <dP> also knowing openttd economy best strategy would probably be to get money, spend it elsewhere and pay off the debt xD
18:13:09  <Borg> ;)
18:16:27  <Borg> at one point.. I would like to write some simple city growing script.. for my BSPI games... it will spice games up a bit more...
18:18:24  <dP> hm, I know one reason I'll probably never use bspi on a server... they look vanilla :p
18:19:04  <Borg> they are vanilla... :) I cant do gfx
18:19:22  <dP> Borg, yeah, same
18:19:32  <dP> Borg, I can do whatever mechanics I want, I just need sprites xD
18:19:35  <Borg> BSPI is just logic.. and honestly? I love vanilla gfx..
18:19:44  <Borg> simple... clear..
18:20:13  <Borg> I just wanted more complicated logic out there.. for long fun games.. hence BSPI has born..
18:21:12  <Borg> dP: sprites are not enough :)
18:21:23  <Borg> I tried to improve things... and gfx failed.. miserably ;)
18:22:17  <Borg> NFO can be trickly...
18:22:37  <supermop_Home> do people still buy drobos or other NAS things?
18:23:16  <andythenorth_> I bought one in 2003
18:23:48  <andythenorth_> if I wanted to have the actual files for a lot of HD movies I'd buy one
18:23:51  <andythenorth_> otherwise....why?
18:24:19  <supermop_Home> idk
18:24:29  <andythenorth_> not needed for streaming media
18:24:38  <andythenorth_> useless for backups
18:24:49  <supermop_Home> i do have a fair amount of personal work stuff, psds, rhino models etc, old work samples
18:25:12  <supermop_Home> that i worry about but want to poke around with time to time
18:25:20  <nielsm> yeah creative work is a good use case for NAS
18:25:32  <supermop_Home> would be a bit clunky to have that in cloud
18:25:40  <Borg> for creative work.. best is VFS...
18:25:54  <Borg> but. its just me...
18:26:02  <supermop_Home> usually only access it from one computer, but might occasionally from another
18:26:07  <andythenorth_> if it's purely for archival /recovery backups, they should be on one or more disks in one or more fire safes
18:26:13  <andythenorth_> NAS for backup is nuts
18:26:31  <supermop_Home> nas is maybe the wrong word
18:26:32  <nielsm> NAS for primary storage of stuff that doesn't need to be hot
18:27:05  <nielsm> (stuff that really needs to be hot, like high res video for editing, obviously goes on a local ssd)
18:27:18  <supermop_Home> currently every few years i get worried any buy a new usb external drive, back up most of my stuff, then forget about that drive in a box or drawer
18:27:42  <supermop_Home> what i want is a little box that can do some raid flavor
18:27:46  <Timberwolf> I've pondered one, mainly for FLAC copies of stuff I've got on physical media that's not available on streaming (usually mono versions, things which got remastered badly, things where the licencing situation is [shrug] )
18:28:14  <supermop_Home> Timberwolf i also have acquired a decent chunk of flac and wavs
18:28:19  <Timberwolf> Currently doing fine with a Pi and a USB HD though.
18:28:23  <supermop_Home> mostly from records
18:29:27  <supermop_Home> i usually would only use mp3s when playing on my phone or computer speakers, but i'd like to keep those larger files accessible for the future
18:29:42  <supermop_Home> likewise for field recordings
18:30:33  <supermop_Home> I've had various 2.5" usb external drives go bad over the years,
18:31:07  <supermop_Home> so currently I've got like a slowly growing and rotating pile of them
18:31:40  <andythenorth_> they're pretty failure prone, especially 2.5"
18:31:50  <supermop_Home> but a raid box with 4-5 bays seems like it would be less of a headache
18:31:53  <andythenorth_> and the enclosures tend to be dirt cheap and prone to failure too
18:32:38  <nielsm> yeah if you want to have a bunch of reliable storage, a synology or qnap NAS bos is a better choice than USB harddrives
18:32:44  <andythenorth_> I bought an nvme enclosure last year
18:32:48  <andythenorth_> USB 3.1 10Gbps
18:32:55  <andythenorth_> it's quite fast as a backup drive
18:33:00  <andythenorth_> it runs hot
18:33:15  <supermop_Home> usb 3 would be fine, the NAS part is less necessary
18:33:15  <andythenorth_> but it would be easy to fit a lot of them into safes / or just hide them
18:33:34  <andythenorth_> using SSD as long-term storage is probably a gamble
18:33:38  <supermop_Home> yeah
18:33:45  <andythenorth_> I don't know the failure rates
18:33:53  <nielsm> def. don't use SSD for storage that will be unplugged for months at a time
18:33:54  <planetmaker> papyrus :)
18:34:13  <supermop_Home> well they will turn to noise if you put them in a safe and forget about them for 2 years
18:34:16  <planetmaker> or stone slabs :P
18:34:24  <nielsm> SSD at modern densities will become difficult to read in 3-6 months and probably unreadable after 12-18
18:34:35  <nielsm> is my random guess
18:34:40  <planetmaker> really, that bad?
18:35:11  <supermop_Home> planetmaker they need regular  power
18:35:14  <Borg> nielsm: are you insist that plugged in SSD drive does some kind of refresh?
18:35:23  <nielsm> yes
18:35:26  <b_jonas> nielsm: why is it that bad? SD cards are readable even if they sit for years.
18:35:42  <planetmaker> interesting... I had actually no idea about that property of ssds... good that my backups are magnetic dr4ives
18:36:03  <supermop_Home> don't SD cards have a bigger charge per bit? less dense?
18:36:07  <nielsm> are those SD cards you think of lower capacity cards from 10 years ago, or high capacity cards from the last few years?
18:36:13  <Borg> planetmaker: well.. after very long time.. magnetics drives can fail too.. but its 20+ years..
18:36:23  <Borg> I mean.. HDDs.. not tapes.
18:36:31  <supermop_Home> a bit on a ssd may just be a few electrons that can get bored and wander off
18:36:31  <b_jonas> supermop_Home: how can they less dense when you can have 128 gigabytes on a microSD card that's the size of my fingernail?
18:36:34  <nielsm> magnetic storage is more reliable for long term
18:36:40  <planetmaker> of course they can. And will. thermodynamics cannot be beaten
18:37:11  <Borg> everything will fail... I saw holographic storage.. in some kind of special glass..
18:37:16  <b_jonas> nielsm: low capacity ones, I haven't had high capacity ones years ago
18:37:18  <Borg> it should last eons ;)
18:37:19  <nielsm> the major risk of tape storage is really that the tape sticks to itself in the spool... which can be averted by just respooling it once in a while
18:37:27  <Borg> but we dont need such storage.. for our personal stuff
18:37:37  <b_jonas> obviously everything will fail, I'm just asking about the specific matters of scale
18:37:54  <supermop_Home> i mostly want my stuff not to fail on a 10 year scale
18:38:09  <Borg> supermop_Home: same here. hence.. I still use spinning rust
18:38:11  <planetmaker> I'd like my stuff to not fail in my lifetime :P Preferentially
18:38:19  <supermop_Home> often i go looking for old work from architecture school, every few years
18:38:19  <Borg> distributed... as well
18:38:22  <planetmaker> but 10 years seems fair
18:38:36  <planetmaker> after 10 years you might have connection issues anyhow...
18:38:37  <b_jonas> Borg: does respooling actually help? doesn't it get sticky because water or some other damaging substance gets into it, which you would just accelerate if you got it out of the cupboard and respooled it?
18:38:38  <supermop_Home> it seems each time i look another few things are lost
18:38:59  <Borg> b_jonas: what are you talk about? that glass thingie?
18:39:11  <b_jonas> ah sorry, misping
18:39:18  <b_jonas> nielsm: does respooling actually help? doesn't it get sticky because water or some other damaging substance gets into it, which you would just accelerate if you got it out of the cupboard and respooled it?
18:39:18  <supermop_Home> planetmaker well if it lasts 5 years, and i rememeber to refresh or maintain it every 2 years, i'll be ok
18:39:24  <b_jonas> Borg: magnetic tape storage
18:39:33  <nielsm> anyway yes, flash memory cells store data by being in a non-natural state of kind, and that will slowly normalize if it doesn't get erased and rewritten
18:39:40  <planetmaker> supermop_Home, yes, the point is "if I remember" :)
18:39:59  <supermop_Home> but its pretty easy for me to go 12 months forgetting about one of a handful of drives in shoebox on top of a shelf...
18:40:04  <Borg> b_jonas: tapes last longer that HDDs.. afaik.. less density.. different encoding.. stronger signals..
18:40:20  <b_jonas> Borg: sure
18:40:26  <planetmaker> nielsm, magnetic tapes somewhat do that, too. Just magnetic order used on discs decays slower
18:40:30  <planetmaker> or so we hope :)
18:40:34  <nielsm> and flash memory used as multilevel (storing 2, 3 or 4 bits per cell) is even more prone to data loss
18:40:38  <supermop_Home> 1 or 2 boxes of dives that will let me know when a drive is going bad, would help a lot
18:40:44  * andythenorth_ read about SSD retention
18:41:06  <andythenorth_> it would be unwise to trust one beyond 2 years unplugged in northern european temperaturs
18:41:14  <andythenorth_> 1 year in southern european temperatures
18:41:22  <andythenorth_> also "don't panic"
18:41:22  <supermop_Home> whether the drives inside are ssd or iron doesn't matter to me if they let me know when they are failing
18:41:25  <Borg> storing data on any storage is one thing.. storing it correctly (right software.. checksums.. validation.. is different)
18:41:42  <supermop_Home> i just want the best box to put the drives in
18:41:49  <nielsm> if you want data to last, rewriting it to new media on the regular is really the only way
18:42:02  <nielsm> and keeping context to understand the data :)
18:42:15  <planetmaker> very much indeed
18:42:43  <supermop_Home> sinology or qnap recommened?
18:43:23  <nielsm> I have a synology but don't take that as a recommendation in particular
18:43:31  <nielsm> it works fine
18:43:49  <nielsm> I'm quite sure QNAP also works fine
18:45:08  <andythenorth_> _most_ things are pretty commodity now
18:45:17  * andythenorth_ gets caught out sometimes when they're not
18:46:44  <supermop_Home> well best buy doesn't have much with 4 holes available for same day pick up here in the city
18:46:58  <supermop_Home> so i might as well order whatever online
18:49:19  <nielsm> beware that synology will probably auto-configure whatever disks you install into it into some RAID-5 or 6 setup for you, make sure the disk configuration is what you want before starting to store data ;)
18:51:17  <nielsm> and keep in mind that math shows that RAID-5 and RAID-6 are not terribly safe for disks larger than 2 TB or so, simply due to reconstruction times when one disk fails likely being longer than the time before the risk another disk fails... or something like that
18:51:44  <nielsm> can't remember the exact argument, but after some particular size it's better to do "something else"
18:52:08  <nielsm> (likely just having multiple backups)
18:52:32  <Borg> or distributed storage ;)
18:52:53  <Borg> always wanted to have such thing.. but for personal usage. its kinda too expensive to have something like MooseFS
18:54:50  <supermop_Home> nielsm nested raid levels?
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18:58:53  <Eddi|zuHause> so, i had a "disk full" issue with my SSD where i have some games and the steam workshop on... download size was 1.9GB, of which it already downloaded 400MB. so i made space for 3.6GB, and the disk is now full again at 1.4GB out of 1.9GB
19:02:40  <nielsm> supermop_Home, with 1+0 when one disk fails, the next disk failure could either cause total loss or just another degradation, so it's kind of a gamble too
19:04:03  <michi_cc> Inodes full?
19:05:21  <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds unlikely
19:05:57  <Eddi|zuHause> it's not a particularly big SSD anyway
19:06:05  <frosch123> "df -ih" tells you
19:06:42  <Eddi|zuHause> 6%
19:06:46  <Eddi|zuHause> used
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20:00:57  <CornsMcGowan[m]> hm, code works fine on release build but fails assert in debug build
20:01:48  <frosch123> that's because assertions are disabled in release build
20:02:04  <CornsMcGowan[m]> ah
20:02:34  <CornsMcGowan[m]> am i using this vector improperly then
20:05:53  <Eddi|zuHause> now, i've 8GB free, let's try again :p
20:07:40  <CornsMcGowan[m]> is delete(*myVector.end()) dodgy?
20:07:46  <CornsMcGowan[m]> oh is end() a null element
20:08:31  <nielsm> yes end is one-past-last
20:09:05  <nielsm> so when begin()==end() the container is empty
20:09:22  <CornsMcGowan[m]> ah
20:09:32  <CornsMcGowan[m]> how should i call delete() over each element in a vector then :0
20:09:55  <nielsm> if you want to clear the vector then use clear()
20:10:36  <CornsMcGowan[m]> i see, but its a vector of pointers, i also want to call delete() on each element first
20:10:39  <nielsm> or wait do you have a vector of pointers and you want to delete the pointed-to objects?
20:10:45  <CornsMcGowan[m]> yeah
20:10:59  <frosch123> use unique_ptr
20:11:00  <nielsm> make it a vector of std::unique_ptr
20:11:30  <CornsMcGowan[m]> :0 okay
20:11:32  <dP> or just for (auto x : v) delete x;
20:11:48  <frosch123> dP: that's the bad answer
20:12:05  <nielsm> avoid manual memory management when possible
20:12:46  <dP> depends...
20:12:57  <dP> I'd agree if smart pointers in c++ weren't such a mess
20:13:11  <dP> also it's a weird statement in openttd context :p
20:13:14  <Eddi|zuHause> now, after it finished the rest of the 1.9GB, i now have 6GB free
20:13:35  <Eddi|zuHause> i guess steam workshop works in mysterious ways
20:13:37  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: just delete all those "train movies"
20:14:04  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: completely unrelated :p
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20:22:10  <CornsMcGowan[m]> oh man im too tired to wrap my head around unique_ptr at the moment
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20:24:23  <CornsMcGowan[m]> trying to implement it in the context of A* search, to delete nodes when no longer needed, and im tossing up between a vector of all nodes or using the two sets (openset and closedset) to manage the unique_ptr since a node can only be in one set anyway
20:26:08  <nielsm> you use std::move() to take a unique_ptr value and move it to a different unique_ptr
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20:27:01  <nielsm> closedset.push_back(std::move(openset[3])); openset.erase(openset.begin()+3);
20:27:03  <nielsm> iirc
20:27:43  <dP> CornsMcGowan[m], why do you even need dynamic allocation for that?
20:27:51  <dP> besides vector ofc
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20:36:39  <supermop_Home> well i just bought another whatever external
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20:37:07  <supermop_Home> so if my laptop gets destroyed while i'm travelling this weekend at least i'll have that
20:38:25  <supermop_Home> who uses these bare HDD docks?
20:38:59  <nielsm> techs that need to clone disks and such?
20:39:40  <nielsm> or if you use disks for cold-storage backup medium
20:44:54  <andythenorth_> I have a HDD bare dock
20:45:00  <andythenorth_> amongst other things
20:45:18  <supermop_Home> i have a usb to sata cable somewhere
20:45:21  <andythenorth_> I back up to both SSD and spinning disk sporadically
20:45:54  <andythenorth_> recently my most successful backup strategy has been getting one of my slightly older laptops
20:46:13  <andythenorth_> :P
20:53:44  <supermop_Home> raid still is limited by smallest disk, right?
20:54:14  <supermop_Home> like if i have 3 4TB drives and one 25 GB drive, it's just going to think its 4 25 GB drives?
20:59:40  <nielsm> with classic hardware raid, yes
21:00:04  <nielsm> with software raid you can typically use the "extra" space on the larger drives for other things
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21:02:16  <Eddi|zuHause> i was thinking of getting 2 bigger disks, then combining 2 of my smaller disks as one bigger disk (raid0) and then use those virtual bigger disks along the new disks as raid5
21:02:36  <Eddi|zuHause> but it's probably TMWFTLB
21:03:01  <supermop_Home> maybe i can re use a few of these 1 TB 2.5" disks i have laying around
21:03:44  <supermop_Home> or if there was some kind of raid usb hub i could just plug them all into
21:04:23  <Eddi|zuHause> software raid doesn't care if it's usb or sata or whatever
21:04:23  <supermop_Home> Eddi|zuHause yeah, probably the time to spend on it is worth more that the cost of just buying 1-2 more big disks
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21:31:53  <supermop_Home> the have a RAID F1 now...
21:32:34  <supermop_Home> which is just raid 5 but it rides one drive into the ground so that it fails before the others....
21:39:37  <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds not very intelligent :p
21:42:23  <supermop_Home> i guess the idea is that by favoring use of one drive and having it fail first, at least you likely wont have all your drives failing at the same time
21:42:52  <supermop_Home> just 1 drive fails this year and the other 3 fail at the same time next year?
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21:52:50  <SpComb> you just need to build your disk arrays out of different disk models by different manufacturers :P
21:52:54  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_Home: but if the drive that fails because of manufacturing deficits isn't the same as the one that is over-used, then you've got two problems
21:53:10  <SpComb> or someone could start selling pre-aged disks for use in raid arrays...
21:53:16  <supermop_Home> haha
21:53:28  <supermop_Home> barrel aged HDD
21:53:31  <Eddi|zuHause> you could just replace the drives before they fail
21:53:51  <SpComb> idea being to ensure failures are non-correlated
21:53:57  <supermop_Home> this HDD was aged in sherry casks
21:54:26  <supermop_Home> "... also it is already failed because it is soaked in sherry"
21:54:28  <SpComb> yeah, one approach would be to pre-emptively rotate out disks
21:55:07  <SpComb> I'm sure some people that take their RAID arrays seriously do that
21:55:19  <SpComb> meanwhile, how often do you actually test your backups...
21:55:34  <supermop_Home> on the order of years
21:56:11  <supermop_Home> I've actually only had one hdd failure in a computer i used in the past 20 years
21:56:29  <supermop_Home> and that was some RAID 0 situation
21:56:38  <supermop_Home> in like 2007
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21:57:33  <supermop_Home> i've had more issues with an old external hard drive i haven't looked at in a few years having a bunch of corrupt files on it
21:57:46  <supermop_Home> but again like 3 times in 20 years,
21:57:53  <b_jonas> I should pay more attention to situations where a bridge works but a tunnel would work better, to build tunnels. I default to bridges most of the time.
21:58:12  <supermop_Home> and usually there is another old hard drive in the shoebox that might have that file on it
21:58:55  <supermop_Home> but i feel like i should be taking a more careful approach
21:59:42  <SpComb> I have a fancy ZFS setup with all kinds of snapshot replication, but uh never got around to actually implementing some kind of active monitoring
21:59:46  <b_jonas> argh, my service to this station is so good that trains keep coming in and it's never empty, and I want to modify its setup but the trains are in the way
22:00:20  <SpComb> sure you get an email from cron if the replication jobs fail, but if the backup job never runs, then you don't get any email...
22:00:30  <nielsm> manually stop a train so it blocks the track entering the station
22:01:10  <b_jonas> yeah, I'll have to order some trains into depots
22:01:17  <b_jonas> that doesn't often happen
22:01:31  <b_jonas> admittedly I use build while paused
22:02:34  <b_jonas> ideally I'd like a selective area dynamite tool, where I can pick checkboxes for what I want to delete/destroy and what I want to keep
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22:16:32  <b_jonas> ok, let's see if this works. I have a terminus station at the large oil wells where the triple main lines goes to, and now I converted the entrance to a compact two-bridge shuffler so that one train from each of the three lines can independently enter and exit on a corresponding line
22:16:46  <b_jonas> without blocking each other
22:17:33  <b_jonas> at least that's the theory, I'll see if trains actually behave that way
22:18:13  <b_jonas> it's a compact design, so if this works, I should try something similar in other stations with high traffic
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23:39:25  <b_jonas> is the largest town building in the default grf 2x2 sized?

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