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Log for #openttd on 12th July 2020:
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06:21:36  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Hexus-One commented on pull request #8268: Change: Sort cargo payment rates legend in order of (initial) cost instead of alphabetically https://git.io/JJYNq
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07:06:17  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on pull request #8268: Change: Sort cargo payment rates legend in order of (initial) cost instead of alphabetically https://git.io/JJYNH
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07:17:29  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on issue #8190: Mac build fails with cmake https://git.io/Jf1a9
07:17:29  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth closed issue #8190: Mac build fails with cmake https://git.io/Jf1a9
07:17:44  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] spnda commented on pull request #8268: Change: Sort cargo payment rates legend in order of (initial) cost instead of alphabetically https://git.io/JJYNj
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08:37:58  <_dp_> does anyone know what causes #8111? fixing the save without fixing the cause seems very weird
08:39:20  <_dp_> glx, Yexo?
08:46:20  <_dp_> hm, looks like noone just bothered to fix tunnel building tool itself :/
09:05:21  <Eddi|zuHause> why did games develop this habit of auto-minimizing when you alt-tab?
09:05:31  <TrueBrain> they stopped that years ago :P
09:05:44  <TrueBrain> it is called fullscreen windowed ;)
09:05:59  <TrueBrain> (a fullscreen game has to minimize when you tab out because reasons)
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09:07:29  <Eddi|zuHause> somebody didn't tell this game, then
09:10:41  <Eddi|zuHause> also, it captures the mouse pointer in the worst possible way
09:12:06  <Eddi|zuHause> and it doesn't offer a setting for capturing mouse pointer
09:12:19  <TrueBrain> sounds like a cheap game
09:12:42  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, it's a cheap indie game called "tropico 6", i'm sure nobody ever heard about it
09:13:38  <Eddi|zuHause> oh, i found the setting, but it's not in UI but in gameplay settings
09:13:55  <TrueBrain> that makes TOTAL sense
09:16:51  <Eddi|zuHause> but even besides that, the capturing was all wrong... i could move around in the window, but if i moved to the left 10% of it, i couldn't leave that left 10% anymore
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10:16:10  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick dismissed a review for pull request #7947: Fix #7945: Add cost of clearing the sloped tile when placing a dock https://git.io/JfWDg
10:16:10  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #7947: Fix #7945: Add cost of clearing the sloped tile when placing a dock https://git.io/JvTH0
10:22:16  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #7937: Build on competitor canal https://git.io/JvUIQ
10:24:39  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #7919: Lifetime profit https://git.io/JveOR
10:26:30  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #7918: Fix 3c047b1: AIGroup.GetProfitLastYear could get values different than those displayed in gui https://git.io/Jvek6
10:28:28  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #7890: Fix #6452: Reset only editable and visible settings from GUI https://git.io/Jexqi
10:30:45  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick dismissed a review for pull request #7883: Fix: Ensure a minimum gap of water upon generating terrain with original generator https://git.io/JvjNC
10:30:45  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #7883: Fix: Ensure a minimum gap of water upon generating terrain with original generator https://git.io/JeNQn
10:32:17  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #7822: Fix #7670: Cache the origin tile to prevent recurring calls to the road pathfinder when a vehicle is blocked by another https://git.io/JegbJ
10:33:59  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #7661: Codechange: Rework 'start_date' parameter for AIs as a game setting https://git.io/fjMsZ
10:35:18  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #7503: Feature: Add aircraft type dropdown in Autoreplace window https://git.io/fjqQz
10:35:39  <argoneus> would you guys recommend any 32bpp packs?
10:35:47  <argoneus> raw zbase looks kind of... boring
10:35:53  <argoneus> especially the land
10:36:27  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #7376: More than max_no_competitors could be created in network games https://git.io/fjvY8
10:37:53  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #7193: Fix #6468: Load correct version of AI as specified during the time of its save. https://git.io/fhHI1
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12:10:00  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl commented on pull request #8268: Change: Sort cargo payment rates legend in order of (initial) cost instead of alphabetically https://git.io/JJOvp
12:12:18  <Borg> _dp_: y0, here?
12:12:27  <_dp_> hi
12:12:59  <Borg> _dp_: is your city mania GS opensourced?
12:13:16  <_dp_> Borg, it's not a GS and it's not opensourced
12:13:30  <Borg> ah.. too bad..
12:13:31  <_dp_> Borg, closest thing you can get is luukland server sources
12:14:38  <Borg> _dp_: and that city builder things? are they GS? or sth else?
12:15:08  <_dp_> Borg, which things exactly? xD
12:15:33  <_dp_> Borg, server is controlled by a patch, you can get an idea how it's done here: https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=73926
12:16:01  <Borg> there are few servers.... CITYBUILDER V2... APHID's CITIBUILDER...
12:16:38  <_dp_> Borg, those aren't citymania servers :p
12:16:42  <Borg> I know..
12:16:43  <_dp_> they run with GS
12:16:52  <_dp_> aphid's gs is opensourced
12:17:00  <Borg> basically.. im looking for sth a bit competetive to add to my server..
12:17:27  <_dp_> Borg, either simple cb or aphids
12:17:52  <_dp_> simple cb is basically a poor man's version of novapolis cb
12:18:17  <Borg> I dont want to patch server.... GS preffered tho..
12:18:20  <Borg> or GS+NewGRF
12:18:34  <_dp_> Borg, simple cb is a GS
12:18:47  <Borg> and it doesnt have any bells and whistless.. all I want to change how cities grow...
12:18:50  <_dp_> Borg, imo the best one for competitive cb
12:19:03  <Borg> oh.. ok
12:19:36  <Borg> lets see
12:20:05  <_dp_> Borg, but if you want to just change city growth probably about half of all gamescipts fit the description xD
12:20:49  <Borg> yeah.. but I want allso those nice text in city window.. that you need this and that PAX/MAIL..
12:20:56  <Borg> later you need this amount of goods.. etc
12:21:49  <_dp_> I think all town gamescripts do that in way or the other
12:22:22  <Borg> holy moly.. simple CB doesnt look all that simple ;)
12:22:38  <_dp_> Borg, yeah, it's probably the most complex one xxD
12:23:05  <Borg> can you recommend anything simpler.. preffer like only PAX/MAIL/GOODS ..
12:23:09  <_dp_> Borg, also if you ever use it with firs keep in mind it was designed with firs 1.3 in mind, with firs 2/3/4 all cargos get messed up
12:23:11  <Borg> I want to fit it.. to BSPI
12:25:14  <_dp_> Borg, I didn't play much with anything but simple cb
12:25:35  <_dp_> just aphids a bit, that may be simpler idk
12:25:36  <Borg> ok...
12:25:45  <Borg> lets check wiki and banans then..
12:26:13  <_dp_> if you just want requirements for all towns not just claim-one citybuilder thing Renewed City Growth GS seems popular
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13:39:21  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl opened pull request #8269: Fix #8269: Set invalid road and tram types for rail tunnel ends https://git.io/JJOUq
13:39:50  <LordAro> i feel like that fix number is incorrect
13:42:35  <_dp_> LordAro, wdym? it's redudant in pr title yes but for commit seems right, no?
13:43:44  <LordAro> i didn't look at the commit
13:43:48  <LordAro> just the message here
13:44:16  <b_jonas> I should try FIRS for my next game probably (or at least look at it in a scratch cheat game and enable it in the main game if I like it). I say next game, but I don't know when that will be, because it's 2086 and I still see plenty of things to improve on this map.
13:45:19  <LordAro> _dp_: oh, no, still weird
13:45:27  <LordAro> why is the PR number in the commit message?
13:45:43  <LordAro> surely that's unintentional, it's not fixing itself
13:46:33  <_dp_> LordAro, ehm, because I added it to a commit, why not?
13:51:43  <Wolf01> Eddi|zuHause: you were pissed off by that fullscreen/window problem, I'm pissed off by the fact I can't set the sound effect device for terraria, music goes to the right output, sound effects still go to the default device and there is no way to make it work without changing the default device (which I don't wat to change)
14:08:04  <milek7> pretty weird that music/effect uses different output stream at all
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14:12:09  <_dp_> #8111 is very weird, how is anyone supposed to increase savegame version now? bump it in that IsSavegameVersionUntil or what?
14:12:10  <nielsm> milek7: since around 1998-2000 I suppose that's weird, between 1990-2000 it was quite common
14:12:31  <nielsm> since you typically had music played either via a MIDI synth or via CDDA
14:12:43  <nielsm> and sound effects played via digital channel
14:12:50  <nielsm> OTTD just does as back then
14:14:40  <LordAro> _dp_: "Fix <foo>:" where foo is what you are fixing
14:14:42  <LordAro> not the fix itself
14:15:05  <_dp_> LordAro, do you want me to also open an issue for 3-line change?
14:15:21  <LordAro> no
14:15:32  <LordAro> either nothing at all, or the thing that originally introduced the issue
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14:16:21  <_dp_> LordAro, fix # links the issue not the cause
14:16:36  <_dp_> i guess I can do fix nrt as well
14:16:55  <_dp_> but most fixes just reference the issue
14:17:04  <LordAro> yes, the issue
14:17:06  <LordAro> not the PR that fixes it
14:17:21  <LordAro> which, somewhat by definition, you can't know until you open the PR
14:17:26  <LordAro> makes no sense
14:17:36  <LordAro> commit hash is fine as well
14:17:42  <_dp_> LordAro, well, there is no issue, and pr and issue is pretty much the same thing
14:17:55  <LordAro> so "Fix: thing" then
14:18:06  <LordAro> why are you making this complicated? surely you know all this? :p
14:18:48  <_dp_> LordAro, as someone who does blame quite often I fell like it's a good idea to include some # in commit message ;)
14:19:29  <LordAro> squashed PRs get the PR number inserted at the end
14:19:32  <LordAro> (by default)
14:19:48  <LordAro> other than that, the GH ui usually suffices
14:28:08  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl updated pull request #8115: GS methods to let company have exclusive access to the industry https://git.io/JfZt7
14:29:04  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl updated pull request #8269: Set invalid road and tram types for rail tunnel ends https://git.io/JJOUq
14:29:35  <_dp_> LordAro, well, whatever
14:42:46  <Borg> b_jonas: not bad.. im at 2039 or so :)
14:43:02  <Borg> waiting for some farms to close....
14:43:13  <Borg> and I will try to build steel chain.. to overflow my goods HUB
14:59:29  <b_jonas> Borg: I added vacuum trains
14:59:39  <b_jonas> that helps
15:01:21  <b_jonas> I had a passenger network connecting only cities, skipping other towns, so they were far away enough from each other, then I converted them to vacuum trains, but then vacuum trains that can go 4000 km/h were invented, and suddenly the cities are too close, I'll have to improve the vac layout so trains can do long stretches between faraway cities, but still service all the cities
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16:06:21  <b_jonas> I quite enjoy the Industrial Stations Renewal newgrf. Is there something like that, a newgrf with stations for various industries and cargo types, but for FIRS temperate basic?
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16:18:16  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #8269: Set invalid road and tram types for rail tunnel ends https://git.io/JJOtv
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16:25:59  <Borg> doooh....
16:26:09  <Borg> I dont use such weird stuff.. its basically vanilla..
16:26:17  <Borg> I just added one loco: X2025
16:26:29  <Borg> its basicaly improved X2001 :) because I love how it looks
16:31:24  <b_jonas> so in FIRS "temperate" basically means UK, which is why it doesn't have grain production?
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17:45:51  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master https://git.io/JJOmL
17:45:51  <DorpsGek_III>   - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
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18:23:21  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: i use Pulseaudio, there i can set up output device for each program individually
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18:51:48  <Wolf01> Eddi|zuHause: I use ear trumpet (on windows), does the same, but software wise, so if the software uses 2 channels I'm fucked :P
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19:27:31  <_dp_> crazy idea of the day: every release make a vote and remove one setting
19:29:53  <b_jonas> _dp_: you already have a tier system for basic vs advanced settings, you could have the vote decide to move a setting up from basic, or remove it if it's already in advanced
19:30:32  <b_jonas> _dp_: except maybe you could fast-track remove settings that are now available as newgrfs
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19:30:52  <_dp_> b_jonas, that solves nothing, first thing everyone does is switching it to expert to see them all
19:31:22  <b_jonas> _dp_: ok
19:31:48  <_dp_> if anything I think it would be better to remove those categories completely as it only adds to confusion
19:32:49  <_dp_> don't think anyone looks at settings and thinks "hmm, what should I change today, guess I'll go for something advanced"
19:32:56  <_dp_> everyone just looks for setting to do x
19:40:34  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] abmyii opened issue #8270: Chat history https://git.io/JJOOE
19:42:18  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl commented on issue #8270: Chat history https://git.io/JJOOE
19:44:06  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] abmyii commented on issue #8270: Chat history https://git.io/JJOOE
19:46:49  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] abmyii commented on issue #8270: Chat history https://git.io/JJOOE
19:49:31  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] abmyii commented on issue #8270: Chat history https://git.io/JJOOE
19:50:21  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #8270: Chat history https://git.io/JJOOE
19:50:21  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro closed issue #8270: Chat history https://git.io/JJOOE
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20:08:23  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] abmyii commented on issue #8270: Chat history https://git.io/JJOOE
20:17:28  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #8270: Chat history https://git.io/JJOOE
20:42:35  <Eddi|zuHause> great game... i have 100 inhabitants and 193 free work places... i rescue a bunch of people, and get a popup saying i should lower unemployment below 7%... then i get immediately a popup that i was successful
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21:22:44  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] abmyii commented on issue #8270: Chat history https://git.io/JJOOE
21:25:34  <_dp_> focus works weirdly indeed
21:28:56  <_dp_> opening and switching windows doesn't take focus from chat and some buttons don't either
21:30:00  <LordAro> mm...
21:31:31  <_dp_> hm, isn't shifting bools incorrect? (g->replace_protection ? 0 : 1) | (_ctrl_pressed << 1)
21:32:49  <_dp_> especially in that context xD
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21:39:46  <LordAro> _dp_: dunno about incorreft, but it's definitely very strange
21:39:50  <LordAro> *c
21:40:56  <_dp_> LordAro, iirc bools aren't guaranteed to convert to ins as 1 and there are even some cases where compilers use that for optimizations
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21:55:56  <michi_cc> _dp_: For c++, false -> 0 and true -> 1 IS guaranteed.
22:01:32  <nielsm> I think the memory representation of the bool might be implementation defined, but conversion from bool to int always results in 0 or 1
22:02:13  <_dp_> I was just thinking of this one: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/54120862/does-the-c-standard-allow-for-an-uninitialized-bool-to-crash-a-program
22:02:20  <_dp_> but it's a slightly different case
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22:05:38  <_dp_> so now I'm watching for landmines every time there is a bool xD
22:05:42  <_dp_> bloody c++ :/
22:07:45  <_dp_> should I still fix those shifts though while I still remember where they are?
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22:12:25  <nielsm> the shift of a bool would still be an implicit conversion to int (0 or 1) and then shifting that int
22:12:42  <nielsm> if the bool has an undefined value then you'd be invoking UB regardless
22:14:33  <b_jonas> hey all. can I ask questions about FIRS? in particular, with FIRS, is it still true that FIRS temperate basic is the easiest climate, FIRS arctic basic is medium, tropic basic is hard? or does FIRS do away with that? in particular, what are the condition for town growth with FIRS?
22:16:03  <Eddi|zuHause> FIRS does nothing to change town growth.
22:16:29  <_dp_> nielsm, yeah, I understand that it's correct, just still a weird thing to do imo
22:16:37  <Eddi|zuHause> and there is nothing that prevents you to use tropic basic in temperate climate
22:16:56  <argoneus> how does timetabling determine which vehicle should get which start date?
22:16:58  <b_jonas> Eddi|zuHause: I know that, I'm asking because FIRS does change the food industry
22:17:00  <argoneus> they seem to leave the depot in random order
22:17:55  <b_jonas> and yes, part of the difference between climates is the default train engines and other vehicles
22:18:02  <b_jonas> and that depends on the climate
22:18:18  <b_jonas> but the industry set and town growth can change the difficulty too
22:18:38  <nielsm> towns in arctic and tropic climates might require different cargoes to grow, rather than food and water
22:18:44  <Eddi|zuHause> again. FIRS does NOT change TOWN GROWTH
22:18:58  <b_jonas> ok
22:20:39  <_dp_> I'm actually a bit surprised there were still some ctrl-click features I didn't know xD
22:20:51  * _dp_ did grep _ctrl_pressed
22:22:04  <b_jonas> _dp_: there's actually a wiki article listing them
22:23:03  <b_jonas> _dp_: https://wiki.openttd.org/Hidden_features#Ctrl_features
22:23:15  <b_jonas> I found a few I didn't know about there too
22:23:23  <_dp_> b_jonas, it's far from being complete :p
22:23:33  <b_jonas> probably
22:23:34  <_dp_> I did grep cmclient though, it may have some extras xD
22:24:11  <b_jonas> I use a lot of ctrl features often
22:24:29  <b_jonas> that might be because I'm used to gimp, which has a lot of features bound to holding ctrl and/or shift
22:25:07  <_dp_> b_jonas, who doesn't
22:25:07  <b_jonas> plus it seems to be the only way to create shared orders or clone a vehicle sharing orders
22:25:21  <_dp_> that article is among links I usually send to completely new players xD
22:25:43  <b_jonas> also the tooltips tell about some of the ctrl features
22:25:53  <b_jonas> and there are so many that sometimes I just TIAS
22:26:00  <argoneus> is there a way to determine which vehicle will leave the depot first?
22:26:11  <argoneus> the timetable autoseparation seems broken
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22:26:57  <argoneus> it sets the start dates correctly but e.g. the bus that's meant to be 3rd is 1st
22:27:01  <argoneus> and blocks the others
22:27:03  <b_jonas> more about FIRS, is it possible to directly transport from a Fishing Grounds or Dredging Site industry with train or truck? or are they locked to ships only?
22:27:54  <b_jonas> also, if I'm new to FIRS, is it recommended that I try temperate basic first?
22:28:03  <b_jonas> or is one of the other two basics better?
22:30:08  <b_jonas> these docs at http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/releases/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html and linked pages describing the industry sets are great, but I wish they also mentioned which cargo(es) houses consume and produce
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22:34:51  <b_jonas> oh, so FIRS tropic basic doesn't even have water, that must mean they've changed the town growth
22:38:08  <_dp_> if this works well it may be a good thing to do in vanilla as well: https://github.com/citymania-org/cmclient/commit/7441767ed85108d5b32c9dea1d8910f0db5a1365
22:41:17  <_dp_> I'll be experimenting with moving remove mode to shift
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22:43:14  <_dp_> b_jonas, why do you even care about those town cargos? they are so irrelevant can hardly be counted as "town growth"
22:43:32  <_dp_> they just map to newgrf cargo based on some flags
22:44:34  <b_jonas> _dp_: because towns (on non-temperate) can basically stop growing if you don't transfer them, and town growth matters. on temperate they don't matter, sure, but I'm asking about the other climates.
22:44:57  <b_jonas> _dp_: and I also care about which cargoes are produced and accepted by houses (ordinary town buildings)
22:45:53  <b_jonas> oh also, how ready is FIRS 3? should I play that instead of FIRS 2?
22:46:45  <_dp_> b_jonas, it's so ready it's almost outdated :p
22:47:03  <b_jonas> I should have downloaded that then, thank you
22:47:11  <b_jonas> I'll download now so I don't forget
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22:56:29  <b_jonas> at least the in-game gui is clear enough about what a town needs for growth
22:56:40  <b_jonas> (and production and acceptance) so I can use that
23:02:24  <b_jonas> I think I'll probably stick to temperate and FIRS temperate basic at first if I try FIRS
23:02:44  <b_jonas> thank you for the answers
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