Log for #openttd on 25th July 2020:
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11:34:50  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] btzy updated pull request #7028: Feature: Option to group vehicle list by shared orders
11:37:06  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] btzy commented on pull request #7028: Feature: Option to group vehicle list by shared orders
11:51:58  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on pull request #8278: Feature: decitiles/day velocity unit
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12:07:42  <nielsm> looking at my modular airports notes again...
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12:13:42  <nielsm> things an implementation would need: map storage format, definitions for tiles and modules, drawing code for the airport tiles, UI for placing modules, UI for viewing status/validity of the airport, storage and validation of the movement paths, converting existing airports to new format
12:13:53  <nielsm> and I'm sure there's more stuff
12:14:30  <nielsm> well actually making the vehicles use the movement paths and pick an appropriate entry point
12:15:25  <glx> isn't there already some kind of state machine for airports ?
12:15:42  <nielsm> there is, and I'm not sure a modular format would be easy to convert to it
12:15:56  <nielsm> at the very least it would probably need some extension
12:15:56  <glx> ah yes modular is another story
12:16:08  <Eddi|zuHause> it would probably be easier to convert the old format to a modular one
12:16:29  <nielsm> these notes I'm looking at again:
12:16:51  <glx> yes an entry/exit info per tile, with checks with neighbours
12:19:00  <Eddi|zuHause> the more modular it gets, the less likely you can ensure deadlock-free operation
12:19:54  <nielsm> I think some rules regarding planes moving to takeoff get priority, reserve their path, can make it pretty safe
12:20:19  <nielsm> so they should always be able to empty out eventually
12:20:38  <Eddi|zuHause> on radar: might allow planes to take off/land in quicker succession if present?
12:21:26  <nielsm> I think that'd be difficult
12:21:48  <nielsm> unless it's just that without radar there's an extra delay inserted on runways or similar
12:22:04  <nielsm> maybe only allow multiple runways to be reserved simultaneously if a radar is present
12:22:24  <nielsm> so without radar you can't have two planes land at the same time, or one land and one take off at the same time
12:24:21  <Eddi|zuHause> this all blends in the other issue that is occasionally requested: station buildings that have gameplay effects (warehouses, waiting areas, restaurants, etc.)
12:24:58  <nielsm> the movements graph for the airport would probably need to be stored in the savegame, to allow aircraft in the airport to refer to specific nodes and edges without depending on the graph being generated exactly the same after load
12:25:18  <nielsm> and keep reservation data properly
12:29:44  <Eddi|zuHause> and we need decorative station tiles that work for rail, road, dock and airport stations
12:30:28  <Eddi|zuHause> which causes a problem for "legacy" newgrf stations
12:32:55  <Eddi|zuHause> so you can easily make 3 separate projects out of this
12:33:36  <Eddi|zuHause> 1) modular movement patterns, 2) generalizing decorative tiles, 3) tiles that have side effects
12:36:26  <nielsm> hm yeah making old airports use new movements might be the first step
12:36:37  <nielsm> before trying to construct movements from tile layouts
12:48:45  <b_jonas> so as a drawback, the wind direction would vary, and you'd have to construct runways in at least two directions so that airplanes can always take off and land?
12:49:18  <nielsm> that would be unfun
12:49:29  <b_jonas> nielsm: "without radar you can't have two planes land at the same time" => what stops you from just having two airports then?
12:49:53  <nielsm> that's two stations, works entirely different
12:51:25  <glx> usually noise level won't allow you to build 2 airports
12:52:28  <b_jonas> oh, as for station buildings. I love the graphics of the Industrial stations renewal newgrf, it lets me build different stations for different cargo. And I found that it at least partly supports FIRS, in that it can display the engineering supplies with the graphics that was made for goods,
12:53:16  <b_jonas> but I'd like some more newgrfs for this, perhaps adding stations with FIRS-specific cargos, perhaps with just more variations of the same thing, so if you can recommend railway station newgrfs like that, I'd be happy.
12:53:33  <b_jonas> also for airports, I loaded the newgrf that has rotated versions of the standard airports
12:53:43  <b_jonas> glx: hmm ok
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13:21:14  <nielsm> ouch
13:25:56  <frosch123> ttdp stuff
13:26:27  <frosch123> <- more of it :)
13:30:53  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: maybe we should think about deprecating the current station spec, and develop a more object-like one
13:32:24  <frosch123> that's a common pattern. when people do not understand something, i believe it would be easier if they rewrite it
13:32:34  <frosch123> *they
13:33:34  <frosch123> maybe you should first try to add some features to objects, which people asked for years, and which stations support
13:33:48  <frosch123> like dragg-able any-size objects
13:33:57  <frosch123> partial demolition and more
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13:58:31  <andythenorth> hmm do logs work?
13:58:55  <andythenorth> I posted Train Whack updates this morning at 9AM UK time or so
13:59:13  <frosch123> yes, i pressed F5 about a hundred times
13:59:18  <frosch123> never got 2 snowploughs
13:59:31  <andythenorth> testing the game was quite repetitive
13:59:39  <andythenorth> testing randomised games always is :P
14:04:48  <frosch123> You scored 1031240!     Snowplough bonus: 2 = 4x score multiplier <- yay, finally
14:05:06  <frosch123> how much bandwidth did that cost?
14:05:35  <frosch123> one of the snowploughs is even at the front
14:07:26  <andythenorth> wonder what my AWS bill will be
14:29:36  <michi_cc> andythenorth: The game is missing an "Share your result" link, how am I supposed to show of my awesome creation otherwise? :P
14:29:44  <andythenorth> I considered it
14:29:53  <andythenorth> I don't know how many params I can fit on the query string
14:29:56  <andythenorth> iirc there's a limit
14:30:09  <andythenorth> I could hash table *every* possible combination of vehicles?
14:31:54  <andythenorth> hmm, 2048 chars per url
14:32:06  <michi_cc> I see you use random(). If it is possible in JS, you'd just need to set/read the radmon seed.
14:32:18  <andythenorth> maybe :)
14:32:28  <andythenorth> vehicle IDs are 0...9999 range, there are max 15 in a row, 10 rows
14:32:45  <andythenorth> so 600 chars, plus boilerplate separators
14:32:54  <andythenorth> might fit in a query string
14:33:05  <andythenorth> if I just did one row, that would be trivial
14:34:08  <andythenorth> hmm, I could do a service where you take a screenshot, then I read the pixels, and detect the IDs from them
14:34:27  <andythenorth> I suspect that's not very hard if an uncompressed PNG is used
14:34:34  <b_jonas> you can always just use a POST request if you want more parameters in the request than fit in an url
14:34:47  <andythenorth> you can post to JS on S3 now? :o
14:35:03  <andythenorth> probably have to use a Lambda :P
14:35:06  <andythenorth> this might get out of hand
14:36:00  <andythenorth> I like the hash table idea, there are between 10 and 150 vehicles displayed, and there are 496 vehicles to choose from
14:36:06  <andythenorth> how many hashes do I need? o_O
14:36:13  * andythenorth never did hashing
14:36:48  <andythenorth> this will be nCr or some other thing I should have paid more attention to
14:38:25  <andythenorth> hashing each row is probably simpler :P
14:38:47  <andythenorth> that's just 15 entries, with 496 possible values per entry
14:39:52  <andythenorth> 496 ^ 15?
14:40:43  <andythenorth> @calc 496 ^ 15
14:40:43  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: Error: Something in there wasn't a valid number.
14:40:47  <frosch123> just stick to 3 digits per vehicle
14:41:05  <frosch123> 10 query params, one for each row. each a string of 15x3 chars
14:41:20  <andythenorth> I am using the newgrf IDs currently which are widely spaced
14:41:24  <andythenorth> I could reduce it though
14:41:41  <frosch123> then use base64
14:41:44  <frosch123> @calc 64**2
14:41:44  <DorpsGek> frosch123: 4096
14:41:45  <frosch123> @calc 64**3
14:41:46  <DorpsGek> frosch123: 262144
14:42:23  <andythenorth> it's here if anyone wants to fork :P
14:43:02  <frosch123> what's the hero unit?
14:43:08  <andythenorth> Bootstrap thing
14:43:10  <andythenorth> css class name
14:43:14  <andythenorth> big blue box
14:43:27  <frosch123> i thought it was some cheat to win at train whack
14:43:32  <andythenorth> if only
14:44:00  <andythenorth> TBH, for rebuilding permutations, a different design might be better :)
14:44:08  <andythenorth> this is kind of top-down or something
14:44:17  <andythenorth> whichever kind of coding is wrong in comp. sci. class
14:44:24  <andythenorth> I failed the only comp. sci. class I did
14:44:41  <andythenorth> I got the result, but I did the wrong kind of coding, I didn't go to the lecture
14:46:23  <frosch123> top-down for new stuff. bottom-up for established stuff that you never want to deal with again
14:47:09  <andythenorth> it was some parse-data-and-draw-a-chart thing
14:47:19  <andythenorth> so I just parsed the data and drew the chart
14:47:37  <andythenorth> I was supposed to create some charting component or something, and a data parsing module
14:47:42  <andythenorth> then connect them together
14:48:15  <andythenorth> Comp. Sci. seemed moderately less actual science than the Political Sci. degree I actually finished
14:48:18  <andythenorth> and more fashion
14:49:05  <andythenorth> I wonder if I can create an ephemeral high score table with an AWS queue?
14:50:03  <andythenorth> "AWS SQS message retention period is 14 days"
14:50:41  <frosch123> did you add code for local storage, to make results worse the longer you play?
14:50:55  <andythenorth> no, that would require a whole load of PECR compliance crap
14:51:12  <andythenorth> I'd need to do a Data Privacy Impact Assessment, appoint a Data Protection Officer
14:51:17  <andythenorth> get a privacy policy etc
14:51:23  <frosch123> oh, sorry, probably should not have mentioned that
14:51:30  <andythenorth> oh jeez, I'm still collecting logs
14:51:37  <andythenorth> I must remember not to look at them
14:52:13  <andythenorth> I probably should set a retention period and add them to my data register too
14:53:27  <andythenorth> the internet was fun once :P
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17:45:45  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master
17:45:45  <DorpsGek_III>   - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
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18:25:09  <andythenorth> anyone won TW yet?
18:29:32  <frosch123> maybe aws did
18:32:29  <andythenorth> billing forecast: 
18:32:33  <andythenorth> for July
18:32:52  <andythenorth> it's *way* cheaper with cloudfront in front of s3
18:33:39  <frosch123> what's the exchange rate between $ and TW points?
18:34:03  <Eddi|zuHause> does it have blockchain?
18:34:03  <andythenorth> no idea
18:34:06  <andythenorth> are they tradeable?
18:34:11  <andythenorth> wow
18:34:21  <andythenorth> for June :o
18:34:22  <andythenorth> "Personal AWS (502284999405) costs are up .52 (6,596%)"
18:34:28  <andythenorth> scary % increase
18:34:33  <frosch123> i got about a million in the best game, is that more than aws earned?
18:34:45  <andythenorth> yes
18:34:55  <Wolf01> <- andythenorth: got all 6 metro in the same consist
18:34:59  <Eddi|zuHause> there's no highscore, how would i keep track?
18:35:05  <andythenorth> has anyone cloned it yet?
18:35:09  <andythenorth> 2048 got a lot of copies
18:35:57  <frosch123> but 2048 was a copy of 3s
18:36:04  <frosch123> what is TW a copy of?
18:36:10  <frosch123> is it original?
18:36:23  <andythenorth> I'm not sure
18:36:29  <andythenorth> I didn't invent it :P
18:36:31  <andythenorth> I'm sure
18:36:47  <frosch123> do you have distribution rights?
18:37:08  <andythenorth> I no longer discuss licensing issues :D
18:37:22  <andythenorth> is TW more or less fun than OpenTTD?
18:38:13  <Eddi|zuHause> no
18:38:26  <frosch123> today i player a lot more tw than ottd
18:38:50  <andythenorth> I played a lot of OpenTTD this week
18:39:00  <andythenorth> 70 years of game or so
18:39:01  <frosch123> is it easier to add more trains to tw than to ottd?
18:39:03  <milek7> what is TW?
18:39:13  <andythenorth> frosch123 pretty much identical amount of effort, oddly
18:39:24  <andythenorth> milek7 you had to ask :(
18:39:24  <andythenorth> oof
18:39:34  <frosch123> milek7:
18:39:54  <andythenorth> someone here actually gave me the idea, but I forget who
18:40:10  <andythenorth> there are random sprites in the header on most pages
18:40:16  <andythenorth> someone was hitting refresh on them
18:41:10  <frosch123> btw. "boring mode" is perfectly labeled
18:41:22  <frosch123> i tried it, and it was pretty accurate
18:41:23  <andythenorth> I thought you might like that
18:41:26  <andythenorth> the name
18:42:06  <frosch123> can you disable breakdowns?
18:42:21  <andythenorth> in the web inspector yes
18:42:25  <andythenorth> you have to hack the source
18:42:30  <andythenorth> I don't know the license on that
18:42:37  <andythenorth> you might have to send me your modifications
18:43:04  <andythenorth> GPL has this weirdly vague handwaving away about "html etc aren't really code, so we'll just ignore them"
18:43:35  <frosch123> i thought everything is solved by "source is the favorite format for editing"
18:43:43  <andythenorth> yes!
18:44:05  <andythenorth> anyway just don't distribute, you'll be fine :P
18:44:21  <frosch123> my favorite format is putting weird idea into someone else's head, and see what comes out
18:44:30  <Timberwolf> This is great until you're doing serious retrocomputing and either punching cards or toggling front panel switches.
18:44:35  <andythenorth> I think my sense of lolz is a bit distorted recently, what with COVID and PECR so forth
18:44:59  * andythenorth making simplified mode for Iron Horse, clearly a good sign?
18:45:28  <andythenorth> I should call it pikka mode :P
18:55:38  <Timberwolf> Is there any way using sprite stacks to set pixels of the target sprite back to transparent/index 0? I'm guessing not, the only thing I could think of that might actually write a transparent pixel is using a recolour map to map something else to 0x00, but looks like the colour remap takes place before the transparency check.
18:56:09  * Timberwolf was looking for a lazy way to resolve the "long vehicles glitch in tunnels" problem.
18:58:54  <frosch123> Timberwolf: no, you cannot recolour to transparent
18:58:56  <Timberwolf> enorth> in the web inspector yes
18:59:00  <frosch123> recolouring to color 0 is just black
18:59:02  <Timberwolf> Oops, paste fail.
18:59:08  <Timberwolf> Thanks.
19:00:09  <frosch123> ottd can clip sprite (as it does for ground tiles on halftile foundations, and in a few other places), but that is not available to newgrf
19:04:11  <Timberwolf> Heh. I accidentally held down shift instead of ctrl and got a cost estimate for setting the start date for my timetable :)
19:04:41  <andythenorth> lol
19:04:45  <andythenorth> was it £1m?
19:04:51  <b_jonas> that's a good thing. I want shift to cancel everything, even things where the game can't give me a cost estimate, for intuitive UI
19:05:25  <b_jonas> that reminds me
19:05:26  <Timberwolf> Yeah, it's consistent and it was also correct. The estimate was £0, and it did indeed cost me £0.
19:06:20  <b_jonas> I wonder if it would make sense to have some way to do land raise/lower/flatten/dynamite tools in such a way that it refuses to do expensive things (for early game), as in destroying water or city property
19:06:43  <b_jonas> though for dynamite I'd really like some much more fine-grained control
19:06:49  <b_jonas> where I can tell what exactly to destroy and what not
19:07:02  <Timberwolf> Kind of like minimum bank balance for autorenew, except with terraforming?
19:07:30  <Timberwolf> Making it intuitive for new players would be hard, although I guess the error could mention how to override it.
19:07:33  <andythenorth> 'autosave'
19:07:34  <andythenorth> :P
19:07:50  <frosch123> b_jonas: but tycoons are mad and throw dynamite in all directions
19:08:25  <b_jonas> frosch123: yes, and I want that as an option too, for late game, an option to destroy transmitters and whole cities, even if it costs a lot of money
19:08:35  <b_jonas> but I don't want to misclick with the dynamite and lose all my money that way
19:09:05  <frosch123> nah, i like transmitters
19:09:15  <frosch123> there must be limitations, otherwise there is no game
19:09:49  <b_jonas> frosch123: there are too many transmitters, I hate the map generator for it, I hate it as a game mechanic because it makes you want to generate flat maps just to avoid transmitters
19:09:54  * andythenorth just plays with magic bulldozer on most of the time
19:10:04  <andythenorth> sometimes that causes new problems :P
19:10:06  <b_jonas> I do use magic bulldozer occasionally
19:10:09  <frosch123> i prefer permaban for people playing on flat maps
19:10:12  <b_jonas> I don't leave it on most of the time
19:10:42  <b_jonas> frosch123: I don't want a flat map either, and that's why I magic bulldozered most of the transmitters and lighthouses,
19:11:03  <andythenorth> I played 88 game years this week, there's not much I'd bother changing about OpentTTD currently
19:11:04  <b_jonas> so I think it's the map generation's fault
19:11:20  <Timberwolf> Awful gameplay idea: can only start/stop vehicles or change orders if they have line of sight to a transmitter.
19:11:23  <b_jonas> andythenorth: yes, it's certainly very playable, I like it
19:11:29  <andythenorth> vehicles should show speed at the start of their window destination string, not the end
19:11:33  <andythenorth> I tried to patch that, but failed
19:11:35  <b_jonas> but it's not perfect
19:11:39  <andythenorth> otherwise game is kinda done
19:11:51  <Timberwolf> Additional awful gameplay idea: transmitter based fog of war.
19:11:56  <andythenorth> lol
19:12:00  <andythenorth> GS
19:12:18  <andythenorth> we should add a bool to each tile - draw/don't draw
19:12:24  <andythenorth> like Neverending Story
19:12:27  <b_jonas> Timberwolf: ah yes, and pylons to supply vehicles and infrastructure with psi
19:12:28  <andythenorth> then let GS turn them on
19:12:50  <andythenorth> anyway OpenTTD is kinda done, we should stop changing it
19:12:53  <andythenorth> and fix FIRS
19:13:11  <andythenorth> and I should fix the Bananas skin but eh
19:13:19  <frosch123> maybe construction cost should scale with the distance to your hq
19:13:26  <frosch123> corruption fees
19:13:33  <frosch123> punishing 4k noobs
19:13:50  <Eddi|zuHause> i always wanted statues to be replaced by branch offices
19:13:59  <b_jonas> andythenorth: yes, I'm playing FIRS now, I was asking for station newgrfs similar to industrial station renewal but optimized for it
19:14:05  <andythenorth> CHIPS
19:14:10  <andythenorth> and the object sets also
19:14:18  <Timberwolf> Start merging in features from Civ type games.
19:14:33  <b_jonas> Eddi|zuHause: oh, I'd like that, that would mean I can destroy my own branch offices
19:14:36  <andythenorth> I am trying to figure out a pollution type mechanic
19:14:39  <b_jonas> currently I am not allowed to destroy my statues
19:14:39  <Timberwolf> "Senington Heights has revolted due to low ratings! Senington Heights is now owned by Frufingwell Transport."
19:14:41  <andythenorth> like original SimCity
19:15:23  <andythenorth> TBH, I think the only decent feature we should add is the ability to launch a rocket
19:15:28  <frosch123> Timberwolf: i was worried you wanted to make it turn based
19:15:29  <andythenorth> I am quite serious
19:15:43  <andythenorth> complete arbitrary goals; launch rocket
19:15:53  <frosch123> andythenorth: add it to the website
19:15:55  <b_jonas> andythenorth: yes, that could work
19:16:02  <andythenorth> frosch123 the suggestions wiki?
19:16:04  <frosch123> you can copy the code from the web
19:16:19  <andythenorth> shall we just move the game into the browser?
19:16:23  <frosch123> andythenorth: no, add the rocket to the website
19:16:25  <andythenorth> then we can just edit the wasm live
19:16:45  <andythenorth>
19:16:45  <frosch123> andythenorth: <- scroll to the bottom, and click the rocket
19:16:56  <andythenorth> oh happy days
19:16:59  <frosch123> firs docs should have the same, with trains
19:17:02  <andythenorth> I used to have a stupid thing like that
19:17:05  <andythenorth> I'll find it
19:17:23  <frosch123> click a vehicle, and it drops and crashes to the fllor
19:17:48  <andythenorth> pure CSS animations? o_O
19:17:56  <andythenorth> I can't be bothered to find the stupid web things I used to do
19:18:00  <andythenorth> they were so stupid
19:18:23  <frosch123> weren't they in flash? and noone has flash anymore
19:19:03  <frosch123> is there some permafrost storage for flash players somewhere? so future archaeologist can play flash games?
19:20:03  <frosch123> is there a rosetta stone with carvings in c, java and flash?
19:20:08  <andythenorth> I think this was my favourite
19:21:52  <frosch123> it has frames, must be old
19:21:58  <frosch123> but quite andyish
19:21:58  <andythenorth> very
19:22:32  <andythenorth> dunno if this will work
19:22:44  <andythenorth> oh the days when we just used to make stuff and upload it to a server :P
19:23:43  <frosch123> seems to work, kind of surprising
19:23:51  <frosch123> i expected it would block all that positiojning stuff
19:23:53  <andythenorth> some of the window sizing isn't quite right
19:24:01  <andythenorth> also screens got a lot bigger
19:24:07  <andythenorth> that was probably made for 800x600 or so
19:24:34  <nielsm> <Eddi|zuHause> i always wanted statues to be replaced by branch offices  <- it would perhaps make sense to replace the "build statue" town action with a statue object you just place
19:24:42  <nielsm> but that would probably break AIs :P
19:24:58  <nielsm> but you could then have different objects that have "statue effect"
19:25:32  <b_jonas> like statues in Settlers game, as in expensive buildings that increase the morale but do nothing more direct than that?
19:26:06  <andythenorth> this is a bit broken
19:26:16  <Eddi|zuHause> you must have played different settlers games...
19:26:20  <andythenorth> very design-of-a-certain-era
19:26:22  <frosch123> b_jonas: are statures the new gold?
19:26:39  <frosch123> i s1 you deposited 2 gold for 3 soldiers in houses
19:26:40  <andythenorth> ha my old site is quite similar style to OpenTTD site :)
19:27:08  <b_jonas> frosch123: you need gold to built them
19:27:08  <andythenorth> orange and dark grey, with stripes, was a thing
19:27:11  <b_jonas> they're gold statues
19:27:19  <b_jonas> well, gilded
19:27:45  <andythenorth> looks like I used to draw pixel crap too
19:27:50  <Eddi|zuHause> in settlers 2 you would deliver gold to houses, and when they are used, one soldier of each rank in the house would get promoted
19:28:08  <Eddi|zuHause> so it worked more efficiently in larger houses
19:28:09  <frosch123> andythenorth: i made a screenshot of the old-old ottd website, before it was replaced by the old website
19:28:14  <andythenorth> pls show
19:28:18  <frosch123> but i lost it :(
19:28:25  <frosch123> it's probably somewhere on some disk
19:28:43  <andythenorth> wayback machine?
19:29:23  <frosch123>
19:29:36  <frosch123> i like the false-coloured header
19:29:41  <andythenorth> so good
19:29:59  <andythenorth> we won a prize!
19:30:24  <frosch123> i think we won hup 3 years in a row
19:30:42  <andythenorth> when was that, 2006?
19:30:44  <frosch123> maybe we got disqualified
19:30:58  <frosch123> andythenorth: old homepage was started in 2008
19:31:06  <frosch123> so that page is 2006-2008
19:31:28  <andythenorth> looks like I joined forums about 2004
19:31:33  <andythenorth> but I didn't really understand the project
19:31:49  <frosch123> did you play ttdp then?
19:31:57  <andythenorth> nah, I was on a mac
19:32:13  <frosch123> <- oh shit, look at the name
19:32:16  <frosch123> it's a scam
19:32:31  <andythenorth> check the SSL :P
19:32:57  <frosch123> so, ottd started on 2004-03-06, and it had a website on 2004-04-23
19:33:07  <andythenorth> speedy
19:33:32  <frosch123> considering the headers, i bet most of the text is still on current website :p
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19:33:47  <andythenorth> this is a pattern right?  In all projects, the old guard do less, and browse the archives more? :P
19:34:06  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think i've ever seen this version of the website
19:34:12  <Timberwolf> ISTR it was really quick to get from vanilla TTD to near feature parity with TTDP.
19:34:30  <Timberwolf> Quick as in a lot of work happened fast :)
19:34:39  <frosch123> Timberwolf: feature-parity was 2008
19:34:42  <andythenorth> not as fast as you draw trains Timberwolf :P
19:34:58  <andythenorth> unrelated: are forums safe to visit currently?  I am sort of avoiding internets mostly
19:35:26  <Eddi|zuHause> <--- this must be around the time that i found the game
19:35:44  <frosch123> Timberwolf: considering that ttdp only really started in 2002, ottd started in 2004, and ttdp died in 2007. 2008 is not that fast
19:35:54  <andythenorth> "so with any luck we will have an OS/2 binary for 0.5.0 final"
19:36:22  <Timberwolf> Really, that late? For some reason I recall it being a lot quicker, maybe it was only the features I cared about :p
19:36:42  <andythenorth> there are those who say feature parity has never been achieved
19:36:51  <andythenorth> but they mostly say it in places I don't go in
19:37:09  <andythenorth> in languages ich spreche nichst so gut
19:37:27  <andythenorth> nicht *
19:37:33  <Timberwolf> The current realistic acceleration model took a while, I remember hacking in my own years ago.
19:38:00  * andythenorth wonders when TW will overtake OpenTTD in features
19:38:02  <Timberwolf> Mine was evil in that trains could fully stall on hills.
19:38:22  <andythenorth> did turning them round solve it?
19:38:34  <andythenorth> maybe TW needs a content layer, for modding
19:38:35  <Timberwolf> It solved that particular problem.
19:38:59  <Timberwolf> GL if you'd put a one way signal halfway up the hill.
19:39:19  <andythenorth> pre-PBS I used to get trains so stuck that crashing them was the only option
19:39:31  <frosch123> andythenorth: how about a "feature request" link, that links to the gh fork action?
19:39:44  <andythenorth> or just opens web inspector? :P
19:39:55  <andythenorth> I've not actually tried editing JS live in the dom
19:40:01  <andythenorth> not sure what it does
19:41:26  <Timberwolf> My main network problems pre-PBS came from living through The Age Of Roundabouts.
19:41:35  <_dp_> I recently had an idea to do fog of war with landscaping
19:41:43  <frosch123> hmm, i just noticed, while it says "transport tycoon", it missed the "deluxe"
19:41:47  <frosch123> so what does the D stand for?
19:41:49  <_dp_> when fog lifts it raises the land and funds industries and towns
19:42:11  <andythenorth> if we're making changes, we should make big silly changes :)
19:42:22  <andythenorth> that don't require nml patches or newgrf wiki docs :P
19:43:21  <Timberwolf> vanilla pathfinder was interesting to work around, too. ISTR it has situations where a train will always turn in the compass direction to their destionation, even if it's not a viable path.
19:44:24  <Timberwolf> I always ended up with at least one "pathfinder correction loop" somewhere in a network.
19:45:08  <frosch123> Timberwolf: the first "improved" train pathfinder (named ntp: new train pathfinder), solved exactly that issue by picking  a random direction when lost
19:46:18  <Eddi|zuHause> i always built my crossings in a way that compass direction was the right one
19:46:41  <Timberwolf> Oh yes! I remember NTP. Usually swapping to it mid-game when whatever the first full pathfinder got beyond what my PC could cope with.
19:47:07  <Timberwolf> Eddi|zuHause: well, that would be the "good at the game" option :)
19:47:18  <andythenorth> ok brains trust: help me our with FIRS industry closure, it nearly tipped me into a rage quit 2 weeks ago :D
19:47:42  <andythenorth> FIRS 3 has closure for secondary industries if unserviced for some years (I never use it)
19:47:54  <Eddi|zuHause> are we quoting scrubs now?
19:47:58  <Timberwolf> I think it wasn't until 1998 or 1999 that I played a successful game which wasn't either extending Megarail, 1960 or just building bus and lorry services on West Country 90210.
19:48:05  <andythenorth> I think scrubs quoted something else :)
19:48:07  <andythenorth> FIRS 4 closure is broken due to new production mechanics etc
19:48:19  <Eddi|zuHause> quite possibly :)
19:48:34  <andythenorth> I wonder if (a) it's acceptable to say closure = use magic bulldozer
19:48:46  * _dp_ hates closing with passion
19:48:47  <andythenorth> or (b) not including closure removes some richness from the game
19:48:51  <andythenorth> or (c) something else
19:48:52  <Eddi|zuHause> but even if i had watched that other stuff, it would have been in german so the reference might have been lost
19:49:21  <andythenorth> apparently
19:49:23  <andythenorth> and more
19:49:35  <nielsm> industries opening and closing during the game, and having unpredictable production changes, is one of the things I like in Transport Tycoon over Transport Fever
19:49:56  <andythenorth> FIRS is very linear
19:50:12  <andythenorth> production only changes when you want it too - I have ideas to vary that
19:50:30  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: somehow i doubt that scrubs would have referenced a UK thing
19:50:43  <andythenorth> more likely
19:51:09  <frosch123> <- funny how truelight moved everything from all-around-the-world to a single server, and now truebrain is moving it back to the cloud
19:51:23  <andythenorth> what's old is new again
19:51:29  <andythenorth> the world turns on it's axis
19:51:31  <andythenorth> its
19:51:52  <andythenorth> one man struggles
19:51:56  <andythenorth> while another relaxes
19:52:54  <frosch123> anyway, extrapolation time. first website 2004-04 to 2005-07, 2nd 2005-08 to 2008, 3rd 2008 to 2019, 4th 2019 to ??
19:53:01  <andythenorth> where even is TrueBrain?  Holidays?
19:53:03  <frosch123> when do we get the next website?
19:53:23  <frosch123> don't wake the dragon
19:53:24  <andythenorth> srs answer: not this year, but I would like to fix bananas skin
19:54:25  <andythenorth> I quite like the website, except the page structure is no longer good
19:54:39  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe you should peel the banana first?
19:55:11  <frosch123> <- i found a gem
19:57:13  <andythenorth> ha ha
19:57:20  <Eddi|zuHause> This TrueLight person must be a real proper idiot :p
19:57:20  <andythenorth> hmm, how much town storage is there?
19:57:32  * andythenorth wonders about more intelligent closing
19:57:43  <andythenorth> how about global storage for newgrf? :P
19:58:23  <andythenorth> hmm, no, please no more newgrf spec changes
19:59:59  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: my thoughts on closing: 1) have a parameter for "no closing", 2) have areas that the player never touched "protected" so they aren't empty when the player finally manages to get there
20:00:43  <Eddi|zuHause> as a rough estimate for "never touched" you can maybe query the rating of nearby towns?
20:00:57  <andythenorth> I was wondering about minimum number of industries per quadrant of the map or something
20:01:00  <andythenorth> or per town
20:01:24  <andythenorth> inevitably, this is all GS stuff :P
20:01:33  <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds like it would be failing for different density settings
20:01:51  <andythenorth> I might break those in FIRS soon anyway
20:02:04  <andythenorth> they're not very good
20:02:24  <andythenorth> can I just let OpenTTD close the industries?
20:02:35  <andythenorth> for secondary, I don't understand the basis for default closure
20:02:52  <andythenorth> primary uses prod_multiplier I think
20:05:44  <andythenorth> 		if ( (byte)(_cur_year - i->last_prod_year) >= 5 && Chance16(1, smooth_economy ? 180 : 2)) { closeit = true; }
20:06:01  <andythenorth> so it's just no prod for 5 years and random chances
20:06:29  <andythenorth> but I have to reimplement that myself I think
20:06:40  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, and this 5 year grace period is ... weird
20:06:57  <andythenorth> I could just reimplement it and move on
20:07:01  <andythenorth> that's what I did last time :)
20:07:14  <andythenorth> frosch123 said improving closure in newgrf was impossible and I should stop wasting my life :)
20:08:05  <frosch123> tw is better
20:08:36  <Eddi|zuHause> no. newgrf can probably improve closing, but it cannot work with global economy data
20:10:16  <andythenorth> I didn't try giving each industry some unique seed
20:10:25  <_dp_> remove all closing and let GS solve it :p
20:10:25  <andythenorth> the biggest problem is waves of closure
20:10:37  <andythenorth> _dp_ we should just make a GS bot
20:10:54  <andythenorth> GS is the new XML
20:10:58  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, the waves of closure come from the 5 year period
20:11:31  <Eddi|zuHause> it'll catch all industries you haven't touched in the first 5 years of gameplay. then the rest of the map will be empty
20:11:36  <andythenorth> yup
20:12:06  <andythenorth> the game solves that because it only visits each industry occasionally, unless smooth economy is on
20:12:20  <Eddi|zuHause> that's why my suggestion would be to start the 5 years only if the nearby town has a rating for at least one compan
20:12:22  <Eddi|zuHause> y
20:12:28  <andythenorth> yes, that could be a mitigation
20:12:45  <andythenorth> other mitigations could be giving each industry a periodicity
20:13:01  <andythenorth> this has to run on the monthly cb, the occasional cb can't be trusted due to economy setting
20:13:39  <andythenorth> but if the check was mostly 'return nothing' and only actually attempted closure 1 in n times
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20:15:23  <Eddi|zuHause> the problem there is that N needs to depend on map settings
20:16:31  <andythenorth> yes
20:16:40  <andythenorth> fundamentally this is an induction vs deduction problem
20:16:53  <andythenorth> I just wonder if I can plaster over it enough
20:17:26  <andythenorth> the downside is I'll never know because I never use the setting :)
20:18:27  <Eddi|zuHause> you'll never find the right N without massive playtesting between different settings and playstyles
20:18:38  <andythenorth> ...which I'm not going to do
20:18:46  <andythenorth> I might do something different
20:19:37  <andythenorth> this is another class of the problem of distributing industries
20:19:56  <andythenorth> I use newgame a lot because mapgen gives non-viable maps (not enough coal mines or something)
20:20:32  <andythenorth> distributing closure values for arbitrary density and map size is similar issue, but not discovered until you have played for 5 years
20:21:01  <andythenorth> BUT
20:21:11  <andythenorth> there might be crude solutions
20:21:13  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd still try the town rating idea
20:21:16  <andythenorth> I might yes
20:21:25  <andythenorth> I forsee a side effect though :)
20:21:36  <andythenorth> just as you start doing well in a town, the industries start closing :)
20:21:43  <_dp_> since I started working on newgrf server I'm really curious whether I'll end up actually using any grfs or it will just be a single megaforkgrf of my own ...
20:22:16  <Eddi|zuHause> you need to store the date when the first town rating appeared, and then count the 5 years from there
20:22:39  <andythenorth> I have related idea about making industries volatile or stable
20:22:52  <andythenorth> which I might use also for primary production
20:23:23  <andythenorth> when an industry is built, I can count the type, and distribute volatile / stable on odd/even
20:23:43  <andythenorth> so 50% will be of each type, at least until closures and openings start
20:24:47  <Eddi|zuHause> just make sure the first one is always stable. for smaller maps that only have 1 of each type :p
20:25:08  <andythenorth> good point
20:25:36  <andythenorth> much as I hate newgrf spec change these days, 256 grf-local storage registers for an industry newgrf might be useful :P
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20:28:20  <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds... problematic
20:29:17  <andythenorth> TMWFTLB
20:29:24  <andythenorth> it only solves closure, not needed for much else
20:29:56  <andythenorth> not even sure it can solve closure, due to way cb works :P
20:30:44  <Eddi|zuHause> i mean, it would introduce state into previously steteless operations, and i don't think you can restrict it to industries only
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21:34:49  <b_jonas> I think I'll dismantle my food trains and rebuild entirely. With the higher amount of money that I have now, and faster trains for the quickly spoiling cargo, and new industries that keep opening, I can probably make it work after a redesign, but the current network is terrible.
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21:51:33  <b_jonas> oh I see! FIRS industries differ in how much cargo they want to start gung-ho production levels:
21:52:35  <b_jonas> iron ore mine only wants 80 crates of engineering supplies in 3 months, but bulk terminal wants 640 tons of clay in three month
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21:54:00  <b_jonas> luckily the high production is not too important for the bulk terminal
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22:36:51  <b_jonas> having the train go on the left track is confusing when I make the signals, but sometimes I have to do it for space reasons, like in this tight complicated station
22:43:30  <b_jonas> hmm, I'm making this big steel mill station uglier, but it will work better
22:47:16  <b_jonas> oh great, I even found a bug in my previous setup
22:55:56  <b_jonas> ok, now I'm definitely going for mad science value, as opposed to efficiency only
22:59:56  <Timberwolf> CB36 not being called on station visits for trains is annoying :(
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23:38:36  <b_jonas> hmm, are my trains too weak? should I put a double engine?
23:39:12  <b_jonas> or maybe they're just slowing down because there's a temporary jam because I rebuild much of the station
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