Log for #openttd on 5th November 2020:
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05:09:02  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Montandalar commented on issue #7831: Crash on placing vehicle in group that used to contain 1 vehicle
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08:44:38  <andythenorth>
08:44:43  <andythenorth> roadtype!
08:44:45  <andythenorth> tramtype!
08:44:47  <andythenorth> FMLtype!
08:54:55  <LordAro> ha
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09:09:03  <SpComb> a bus disguised as a tram
09:12:28  <reldred> shhhh, let that bus be all that it can be
09:30:02  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm pretty sure we discussed these before
09:30:56  <Eddi|zuHause> and i'm pretty sure we concluded that these lines on the road fail as soon as there's dirt, snow, or heavy usage
09:50:06  <andythenorth> can we delete inflation?
09:50:15  <andythenorth> we could do it on 1 of 2 grounds
09:50:27  <andythenorth> 1) it doesn't work, and causes newgrf bug reports
09:50:29  <andythenorth> 2) it's unrealistic
09:51:29  <LordAro> i wouldn't be opposed to disabling it by default
10:07:40  <andythenorth> hmm
10:08:08  <andythenorth> mostly I draw vehicles that are mostly symmetric along the long axis
10:09:59  <andythenorth> but contemporary small ships often have cranes offset to one side
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10:31:45  <longtomjr> andythenorth, are those cranes for loading?
10:32:15  <andythenorth> yup
10:34:54  <longtomjr> Those pipes on the side of the hull is interesting, that is probably too small for ttd scale?
10:54:37  <andythenorth> the welded ribs on the hull?
10:55:21  <andythenorth> I tend to stick a few highlight / shadow pixels in to give the impression that surfaces aren't flat
10:55:31  <andythenorth> trying to actually draw them won't work, scale issues
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11:07:34  <dot_Sp0T> Hello, anybody round?
11:09:34  <dot_Sp0T> That is a shame.... Anyway in case anybody happens by and reads this: I was hoping to find some help in regards to working with the OpenTTD sources. But I seemingly cannot write any messages in the dev channel
11:13:59  <longtomjr> If you have questions, feel free to ask here. Someone might see your message and be able to help.
11:15:37  <LordAro> you waited 2 minutes
11:15:46  <LordAro> @topic get 3
11:15:46  <DorpsGek> LordAro: Don't ask to ask, just ask
11:19:16  <dot_Sp0T> It seems most of the openttd codebase is in C++ so I was looking around for what tools are recommended/necessary to work with the codebase (have just found the Development Wiki after some more searching, so scouring that right now...). In the meantime: Is there any currently recommended way to go about writing a mod/patch for the game?
11:23:30  <dot_Sp0T> The simplest way I see right now is forking the base-repo and branching off that. From there I wonder if there's any process in place commonly used that is different from somehow just filtering out modified files and / or 'simply' recompiling and installing the modded game
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11:40:08  <LordAro> that's basically it, yeah
11:40:18  <dot_Sp0T> sad
11:40:22  <LordAro> don't need to "install" it, just run it from the resulting folder
11:40:23  <dot_Sp0T> but expected
11:40:25  <LordAro> sad?
11:40:53  <dot_Sp0T> was hoping there might be some sort of process, especially considering interaction of mods and downloadsizes
11:41:27  <LordAro> that is the process
11:41:32  <LordAro> i'm not sure what else you were expecting
11:41:50  <LordAro> (also, just standard C++ development environment for working with the codebase, every developer has their own preferences)
11:41:53  <longtomjr> Patches and mods are 2 different things. You can write scripts and graphics to change the game in certain aspects, without having to patch the source code.
11:42:37  <dot_Sp0T> yes, using newgrf
11:42:52  <longtomjr> that is "mods" though. In openttd land we have newGrfs: Add more vehicles, rails, industries, objects etc.
11:42:53  <dot_Sp0T> but that only allows touching aspects of the game that are already designed to be modified/extended
11:43:12  <LordAro> newgrf development is very different to OTTD development
11:43:20  <longtomjr> Then there is gamescripts as well, that can add some goal oriented layer on top of the game.
11:44:30  <longtomjr> Gamescripts and Newgrfs are both developed in different ways, and can be distributed with the ingame content downloader.
11:46:22  <longtomjr> Mods in any game only allows touching aspects of the game that were designed to be modded and extended. With openttd being open source, you can however extend the game beyond that by creating a patched version of the game.
11:47:26  <longtomjr> This seems pretty normal to me, so like LordAro said, what did you expect this process to look like?
12:01:41  <dot_Sp0T> I was not expecting anything, I was merely hoping there might be something :)
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12:07:02  <andythenorth> there is some dev documentation in the wiki dot_Sp0T
12:07:08  <andythenorth> it's not official, it's not comprehensive
12:07:22  <andythenorth> I did tidy it up last year and removed junk, but eh
12:07:45  <andythenorth> it's community contributed so it is what it is
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12:08:41  <andythenorth> dot_Sp0T there are a couple of official docs also and
12:08:44  <dot_Sp0T> the wiki is very nice, once i find pages :))
12:09:54  <dot_Sp0T> am currently going through all that, but trying to respond in here in parallel once somebody writes something (don't wanna seem ungrateful)
12:10:04  <andythenorth> there are a few other official docs here also
12:10:07  <andythenorth> quite sparse
12:11:58  <dot_Sp0T> sparse but efficient, right now i'm just trying to find my way around cmake, as in the past i have never had to use it
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12:27:56  <TrueBrain> damn, frosch really has been busy with the export ... things are now nice and lovely in separate folders .. it is really nice
12:28:00  <TrueBrain> let me get this to staging in a bit :D
12:48:21  <TrueBrain> hmmm .. having folders in categories does show the problem of having the same category-name in different folders
12:48:25  <TrueBrain> that might be somewhat confusing I guess
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13:11:41  <dot_Sp0T> well that took me way too long to find the issue i am having. Is any dev here that works on windows and perchance not with visualstudio?
13:13:45  <LordAro> @topic get 3
13:13:45  <DorpsGek> LordAro: Don't ask to ask, just ask
13:15:52  <dot_Sp0T> that's lit what i did
13:16:30  <LordAro> don't ask if there's anyone around to ask your question to either
13:16:37  <LordAro> just ask your damn question
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13:20:13  <TrueBrain> breath LordAro , breath!
13:20:18  <TrueBrain> bread?
13:20:23  <TrueBrain> well, you get what I mean :P
13:20:26  <LordAro> oh dear
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13:23:32  <dot_Sp0T> Sorry, had to restart to get powershell to behave. probably missed your last msgs
13:24:32  <TrueBrain> it felt like a ragequit :P
13:24:52  <TrueBrain> but seriously dot_Sp0T , in these communities, like most open source, just tell what you are doing and what you are seeking help with
13:24:57  <longtomjr> having to restart bc powershell might be rage inducing
13:25:05  <TrueBrain> don't try to connect with someone first, to ask the question .. it makes for very very slow conversations :)
13:25:25  <TrueBrain> it sounds a bit rude, it really isn't :)
13:25:45  <TrueBrain> dev-expertise is all over the place, so finding "a dev" is not going to help you :) Asking what you have issues with, most of the time will ;)
13:26:09  <TrueBrain> longtomjr: fair point, honestly :P
13:26:13  <longtomjr> sometimes they even email you to offer you a deal on building a mobile app. these dev
13:26:14  <longtomjr> s
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13:26:42  <TrueBrain> ......... longtomjr stop reminding me :P
13:27:24  <longtomjr> Why, is the offer starting to seem more and more appealing?
13:27:46  <longtomjr> hahah
13:28:14  <dot_Sp0T> anyway it's mostly what i implied but not stated explecitile: DId you get the buildprocess to run on windows without using visual studio, and if yes, how? (I am in the process of slogging through the cmake doku to understand what the lists file tells me and to config env vars accordingly)
13:28:39  <TrueBrain> if not using VS, what are you using?
13:28:41  <TrueBrain> kinda important :P
13:29:19  <dot_Sp0T> in my case CEVELOP which is built on top of eclipse CDT. But i could be using anything to edit the files and then run a compiler/debugger per command line for all i care
13:29:36  <LordAro> cmake does have a workable gui
13:30:14  <TrueBrain> never heard of CEVELOP, no clue if there is CMake support for that :D You are exploring new territoria :D
13:30:24  <LordAro> looks like it might have an answer
13:30:49  <TrueBrain> not a promising answer ...
13:31:05  <LordAro> not a great one, but presumably workable
13:31:07  <TrueBrain> well, the second step is pretty solid
13:31:19  <longtomjr> What are you using to build on pipelines?
13:31:19  <dot_Sp0T> yeah no the answer there is a good pointer, but I figure i need to get CMAKE running first
13:31:37  <longtomjr> ah vs
13:31:42  <dot_Sp0T> i was hoping to only build locally^^
13:31:54  <TrueBrain> longtomjr: MSVC simply gives the best binaries, we found out over 15 years :P
13:31:55  <LordAro> work out where the cmake gui is, use that
13:32:06  <longtomjr> Nah, were asking True what openttd uses in their pipelines.
13:32:09  * LordAro disappears
13:32:20  <longtomjr>
13:32:22  <dot_Sp0T> ah nvm
13:32:23  <TrueBrain> dot_Sp0T: honestly, most Windows people simply use MSVC
13:32:40  <TrueBrain> so you are a bit on your own here, most likely ...
13:32:53  * LordAro has no real issues with MinGW, but it wouldn't try to use it for "serious" development work
13:33:07  <TrueBrain> well, I use WSL, and cross-compile
13:33:11  <TrueBrain> but I might be a bit weird :P
13:33:12  <LordAro> mkdir build && cd build && cmake .. works just fine
13:33:20  <dot_Sp0T> no bother
13:33:20  <TrueBrain> I just love VSCode, and I love WSL2 :)
13:33:35  <LordAro> TrueBrain: just a bit weird
13:33:45  <longtomjr> TrueBrain is windows your daily driver?
13:34:16  <TrueBrain> "daily driver"? Sorry, I don't know that slang, what do you mean?
13:34:33  <longtomjr> As in the operating system you mainly use?
13:35:02  <TrueBrain> I only use Windows these days
13:35:09  <TrueBrain> but I do all coding work via WSL2
13:35:12  <longtomjr> ✝✝✝
13:35:17  <TrueBrain> vscode also runs in WSL2
13:35:40  <TrueBrain> wait, you want to start an OS war? :D
13:35:47  <longtomjr> No, mostly just joking
13:35:52  <longtomjr> were interested
13:36:02  <TrueBrain> I used all OSes ... in the end, they are all the same
13:36:12  <TrueBrain> I like MacOS because it means it "just works", 99% of the time
13:36:24  <TrueBrain> I like Windows because games "just work", 99% of the time
13:36:30  <TrueBrain> I like Linux, because FUCK OFF I CAN DO THIS MYSELF
13:36:40  <longtomjr> Proton is nice
13:36:58  <TrueBrain> but WSL2 + Windows is a really strong platform to work with
13:37:11  <TrueBrain> today I was in a store where they had installed xfce as desktop for the employees
13:37:17  <TrueBrain> HILARIOUS when she opened up Firefox
13:37:19  <TrueBrain> took 3+ minutes
13:37:23  <TrueBrain> guess they have Raspberries :P
13:37:49  <TrueBrain> Proton is nice, Stadia is nicerrrrrrr
13:38:11  <longtomjr> Yep, I used WSL as well when working mostly in C#, installed it on the company machine, got a visit from the secops guys...
13:38:25  <longtomjr> Something something cpu code injection something something
13:38:33  <TrueBrain> well, if you run WSL, you might as well be local administrator, honestly
13:38:51  <TrueBrain> good for them they detected it, but why could you install it in the first place? :D
13:39:00  <longtomjr> They gave up, so all the coders were local admins.
13:39:43  <longtomjr> Otherwise they would non stop be getting requests like, "I need emacs for note taking", "new vs version is out", "I want my screensaver to be a cute puppy" etc.
13:39:57  <TrueBrain> yeah ... putting developers in their own vlan is a very smart thing to do .. and give them very limited network access :D
13:40:20  <longtomjr> They gave us access to the guest network, otherwise we will not be able to download vs code
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13:40:33  <TrueBrain> I gave a lot of training in companies, for security-related stuff .. developers were the most fun :)
13:40:41  <longtomjr> We are a terrible bunch
13:40:52  <TrueBrain> mostly, I love "hacking" into developers laptops
13:40:58  <TrueBrain> it is .. like ... really quick
13:41:10  * longtomjr unplugs router
13:41:13  <TrueBrain> as there is always this one person that has a Tomcat or what-ever outdated running on a weird port
13:41:24  <TrueBrain> like .. "yes, now it is hidden"
13:41:51  <TrueBrain> and always with passwords that are .. euh ... well, simple? :D
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13:42:39  <longtomjr> TrueBrain, hmm, did not know I belonged to a demographic with bad password discipline
13:43:05  <TrueBrain> local setups always run the most simplest of passwords
13:43:13  <TrueBrain> I have that myself even ... and I should know better :P
13:43:25  <TrueBrain> so a local apache
13:43:27  <TrueBrain> or a local tomcat
13:43:30  <TrueBrain> or a local database
13:43:37  <TrueBrain> they often have logins like root/root, or test/test
13:43:48  <TrueBrain> as .. which developer constantly wants to use his Password Manager to enter his local database?
13:43:53  <longtomjr> Aaah yep, but those should not be exposed to the network?
13:43:59  <TrueBrain> SHOULD not be
13:44:10  <TrueBrain> but often enough either firewalls are not configured
13:44:19  <longtomjr> (I might be that developer, religously use my password manager, because I can forget root/root)
13:44:28  <TrueBrain> or, my favorite: I just exposed it for a few minutes to my colleague could see what I was doing
13:44:42  <longtomjr> That is like only running around naked for 5 minutes
13:44:44  <TrueBrain> s/to/so/
13:44:59  <longtomjr> you are still running around naked in public
13:45:00  <TrueBrain> and, as it goes: out of the 10 developers, only 1 needs to have this attitude :)
13:45:42  <longtomjr> Yep. Turns out developers know enough to be a security threat, but not enough to mitigate it.
13:46:07  <TrueBrain> I have been in the cybersecurity field for over 5 years now, and I still make those mistakes .. it is VERY difficult to keep track of that all constantly
13:46:14  <longtomjr> Something something a little bit of knowledge is more dangerous than no knowledge
13:46:49  <longtomjr> I think it is easier to make those mistakes on your local setup, somehow you feel less is at stake
13:48:04  <TrueBrain> and often: I will do this quickly and clean up after
13:48:17  <TrueBrain> I once put my Docker on a TCP socket, as I needed to connect to it remotely
13:48:18  <TrueBrain> forgot about it
13:48:26  <TrueBrain> within 3 days it had coinminers running
13:48:36  <longtomjr> oof
13:49:04  <TrueBrain> it happens; simple as that
13:49:43  <longtomjr> Luckily it were just docker
13:49:52  <longtomjr> or did it have filesystem permissions?
13:50:10  <TrueBrain> Docker API access == root access
13:50:13  <TrueBrain> nothing you can do about that
13:50:23  <longtomjr> Oof.
13:50:27  <TrueBrain> for me, in this case, I am the type of person that isolates EVERYTHING
13:50:33  <TrueBrain> so the Docker host was... just a Docker host
13:50:36  <TrueBrain> with only images it pulled
13:50:42  <TrueBrain> but .. it is a mistake easily made
13:51:16  <dot_Sp0T> anyway, gotta fiddle with it some more another day. thanks for all the help!!!!
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13:52:38  <TrueBrain> <- so many fixes to deploy ... and new featuresssssss :D
13:53:58  <TrueBrain> lets see how long it takes to get this to staging :)
13:54:04  <longtomjr> I were still reviewing :P
13:54:22  <TrueBrain> good for you :D Let me know if you find anything wrong :)
13:54:40  <longtomjr> I think I will probably not find anything, but I will learn a bit
13:54:58  <TrueBrain> pretty sure there are mistakes somewhere hiding in there, but as it goes .. after a while you go blind on these things :)
13:55:04  <TrueBrain> downside of your own code, honestly
13:55:27  <longtomjr> Yep, best to outsource it to a company when you want to develop apps. Then you don't have to deal with your own code ;)
13:55:39  <TrueBrain> ..........
13:55:41  <TrueBrain> :P
13:56:05  <TrueBrain> "Python overtakes Java to become the second-most popular programming language" <- what a silly headline
13:56:25  <longtomjr> There is a lot to unpack there
13:56:33  <TrueBrain> it reads like: gratz, you are still failing
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13:59:45  <longtomjr> Let me know what the warm up time is
14:05:53  <TrueBrain>
14:05:57  <TrueBrain>
14:06:27  <TrueBrain> PRETTY
14:06:28  <TrueBrain> ish
14:06:59  <TrueBrain> I like it tells you when a page is on another language than you are on now
14:07:23  <longtomjr> Ooh
14:09:19  <TrueBrain> pretty happy with most of it now, honestly :)
14:11:27  <TrueBrain> the editing is not completely done yet, but otherwise I think the viewing part is pretty much complete ..
14:11:41  <TrueBrain> well, yes, the export needs some fixing, but .. that is just a matter of doing, more than anything else
14:15:27  <LordAro> very nice
14:15:56  <TrueBrain> tnx :)
14:25:49  <TrueBrain> let me know if you find any non-content related bugs pretty please (in the view part)
14:40:55  <andythenorth> TrueBrain 96% of the time
15:02:29  <TrueBrain> do I want to know why you are throwing percentages at me andythenorth ? :D
15:02:37  <andythenorth> no
15:02:47  <andythenorth> was it lunch time yet?
15:02:52  <TrueBrain> 4 hours overdue
15:02:53  <TrueBrain> sure
15:24:11  <supermop_Home> coffee time?
15:24:44  <andythenorth> no
15:28:03  <FLHerne> andythenorth: There's quite a difference between 60s/70s ships and more recent ones
15:28:29  <supermop_Home> hydrofoil bulk carriers?
15:29:22  <FLHerne> The older ones tend to have angled decks and very smoothly-faired hulls, like or
15:29:29  <andythenorth> FLHerne there is if things like X-bow are included
15:29:52  <FLHerne> Also, forward control on boxships was much more common in that era
15:30:19  <andythenorth> find some 1000grt coasters and report back :D
15:30:38  <andythenorth> shortsea ships, the 1990+ ones often have things like elevating house
15:30:45  <andythenorth> and the hull is more angular
15:31:15  <FLHerne> Then the yards realized it's cheaper to use identical prefab sections
15:32:17  <FLHerne> So modern ones have have perfectly-square/flat decks for most of the length, and the bow is obviously sort of tacked on the end with the minimum length of custom steel possible
15:32:49  <andythenorth> the current 1960s-70s small GCV is similar to
15:33:04  <FLHerne> Like
15:33:08  <andythenorth>
15:33:57  <FLHerne> You can go some way just by making the wheelhouse an ugly square box :p
15:34:05  <FLHerne> Maybe with bridge wings
15:35:22  <andythenorth>
15:35:31  <andythenorth> square off the rear hull
15:35:38  <FLHerne> is a very little coaster I found on holiday
15:36:07  <andythenorth> hmm
15:36:16  * andythenorth looks up the grt
15:36:53  <FLHerne> I went on this at the same time
15:36:58  <FLHerne> It's a beautiful ship
15:37:17  <FLHerne> SQUID doesn't do fast ferries currently, does it?
15:37:28  <andythenorth> can't remember
15:37:39  <andythenorth> I am going to bring the hydrofoils back for Sam
15:37:51  <FLHerne> Little fast river catamarans like the Thames Clippers or NYC Ferries ones would be nice
15:38:27  <andythenorth> I spent a lot of time looking at incat and austal
15:38:31  <FLHerne> SQUID has basically one small passenger boat with a useful capacity, which gets boring to look at
15:38:38  <andythenorth> it does
15:39:03  <andythenorth> I think for the general cargo ships, I want to keep the crane
15:39:10  <andythenorth> most coasters aren't geared now
15:39:27  <andythenorth> and those that are have hydraulic cranes offset to one side
15:39:33  <FLHerne> ACL's new conros are quite different-looking
15:39:35  <FLHerne>
15:39:49  <FLHerne> And surprisingly small compared to current large container ships
15:39:52  <andythenorth> like a spaceship
15:40:06  <andythenorth> it's like a vegas hotel set sail
15:40:18  <andythenorth> paint it gold, put 'Trump' down the side
15:40:30  <FLHerne> Hm?
15:40:41  <FLHerne> The big racks are to stop containers falling off the side
15:40:56  <FLHerne> Because the North Atlantic has famously bad weather
15:41:31  <FLHerne> Most of the big ships go much further south, out of Gibraltar or so
15:41:54  <FLHerne> But ACL's niche is relatively frequent, low-transit-time shuttles between the NE US and Northern Europe
15:41:56  <andythenorth> don't know why, but reminded me of
15:42:20  <FLHerne> So they have to go straight across the Atlantic regardless of weather
15:42:36  * FLHerne isn't seeing it
15:43:13  <andythenorth> nvm :)
15:43:36  <andythenorth> anyway, I'm quite open to 'modern' ships, but it takes 1 week to draw each ship
15:43:39  <FLHerne> Are you doing vehicle carriers? Those are distinctive
15:43:51  <andythenorth> I am probably going to do a fake small shortsea one
15:44:03  <andythenorth> there are real shortsea vehicle carriers, but they aren't interesting
15:44:13  <andythenorth> I want to squash one of the big WW type
15:44:49  <FLHerne> ?
15:44:56  <FLHerne> Don't forget the basketball court :p
15:45:20  <andythenorth>
15:45:29  <andythenorth> actual shortsea edition
15:45:31  <andythenorth> maybe
15:45:58  <FLHerne> -- smallish ro-pax ferry, mostly freight
15:46:23  <FLHerne> Oh, that's interesting, I've not seen one like that
15:46:33  <andythenorth> so many ship types :P
15:46:45  <andythenorth> designing a UK-based train set is much easier to research
15:46:50  <andythenorth> there are only so many wagon types
15:47:54  <FLHerne> has more scale
15:48:18  <FLHerne> Big ship, but not as big as it looks :p
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15:52:05  <andythenorth> the small ferry though
15:52:14  <andythenorth> that's a candidate
15:52:17  <andythenorth> oof so many ships to draw
15:56:17  <supermop_Home> andythenorth that one up there i thought was "City of Lettuce"
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17:34:37  <andythenorth> are there any devs here?
17:34:48  <andythenorth> or who is a newgrf expert I could ask a question to?
17:44:32  <TrueBrain> @kick andythenorth go sit in the corner
17:44:33  *** andythenorth was kicked by DorpsGek (go sit in the corner)
17:44:47  <TrueBrain> 1002
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17:46:19  <longtomjr> harsh
17:46:28  <TrueBrain> is it? really? :)
17:46:43  <longtomjr> Not even a warining, how could he have knows
17:46:49  <longtomjr> known*
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17:47:02  <TrueBrain> good boy andythenorth_corner  :)
17:47:37  <andythenorth_corner> pls, send me the codez?
17:48:48  <longtomjr> andythenorth_corner, JGR's daylength modifies running cost
17:49:15  <longtomjr> That is most likely what is happening
17:50:55  <longtomjr> So I think it might be 16 daylength factor since that is the mulitple
17:51:12  <andythenorth_corner> why the fuck would it do that :D
17:51:12  <longtomjr> but I am not 100% sure how daylength scales that factor
17:51:26  <frosch123> TrueBrain: if i move some templates (like {{!}} or {{-}}) into the template root folder (without en/). does that cause problems on your side? do you expect a language code?
17:51:32  <longtomjr> because otherwise trains are insanely cheap to run
17:51:39  <longtomjr> on higher daylengths
17:51:59  <TrueBrain> frosch123: today I added code that makes link without langauge code invalid, yes :P
17:52:01  <TrueBrain> doesn't mean we can't add it
17:52:05  <TrueBrain> but maybe in its own "language"?
17:52:15  <longtomjr> So the actual running cost per tick might be the same, but because the year has more ticks (to make money and travel) the running costs scale up with it
17:52:26  <frosch123> TrueBrain: okay, sounds like v2 :)
17:52:32  <TrueBrain> how else will we prevent people from making language-specific ones, is my wondering there :)
17:52:48  <andythenorth_corner> oof
17:52:52  <andythenorth_corner> longtomjr sounds plausible
17:52:58  <longtomjr> TBH if the daylenth factor is 16 in that screenshot, that running cost is pretty ok
17:53:20  <andythenorth_corner> why is even daylength
17:53:25  <longtomjr> Especaially for a train that is that quick and powerfull
17:54:15  <longtomjr> I like daylength, makes server games last a lot longer ;). The 90% menu scrolling players like that :) (I am one of them)
17:54:21  *** andythenorth_corner is now known as andythenorth
17:55:25  <andythenorth> daylength is a plague, for newgrf bug report purposes
17:55:57  <longtomjr> The ideal is that folks will know daylength affects running costs
17:56:05  <longtomjr> they obviously don't
17:56:20  * andythenorth wishes daylength wasn't in the standard version of OpenTTD :P
17:56:36  <SpComb> wait what, there's daylength in the standard version of OpenTTD?
17:56:51  <TrueBrain> SpComb: with a fixed value of 1, yes
17:56:54  <andythenorth> JGRPP is the standard version
17:56:57  <SpComb> or did you mean JGRPP = standard version :P
17:56:59  <andythenorth> reddit declared some time last yeart
17:57:03  <andythenorth> year *
17:57:13  <SpComb> "Legacy OpenTTD" and "JGRPP"
17:57:21  <andythenorth> yes
17:57:26  <longtomjr> seriously
17:58:00  <andythenorth> JGRPP is what reddit (and to a lesser extent) forums direct new players to
17:58:30  <longtomjr> new players, hmm ok
17:59:01  <longtomjr> don't get me wrong, I love playing with JGRPP, but I can easily see it not being the best for new players.
17:59:55  <longtomjr> I mean milage will vary
18:05:14  * andythenorth learns about it
18:05:16  <andythenorth>
18:05:22  <andythenorth> what are timetables for anyway?
18:07:50  <longtomjr> Most powerful part is scheduled dispatch. It allows you to fine tune how many trains per hour goes on a route etc.
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18:11:08  <FLHerne> The OTTD timetabling system sucks for that, though
18:11:21  <longtomjr> Why?
18:12:47  * andythenorth experiments
18:13:37  <andythenorth> yeah I just don't understand timetables, no matter how many people explain them :P
18:14:05  <SpComb> TpF has some kind of spreading for trams/busses, but I don't think it has anything for trains. They sometimes get all bunched up
18:14:14  <FLHerne> Because it takes a vast amount of micromanagement to achieve useful results, and then everything breaks whenever you add more vehicles or upgrade something
18:14:34  <andythenorth> 1) why are timetables needed 2) how do they work?
18:15:04  <FLHerne> (the design issue being that the interface is vehicle-oriented rather than service/route-oriented)
18:15:33  <longtomjr> Scheduled dispatch makes the micro not that bad tbh
18:15:54  <FLHerne> andythenorth: (1) to stop vehicles bunching up, or to avoid conflicts at junctions or single-line sections
18:16:20  <andythenorth> but how does the game speed up or slow down the vehicle?
18:16:25  <FLHerne> (2) You set running times for each leg, and dwell times for each station, for each set of orders
18:16:28  <andythenorth> that's the part I don't understand
18:16:35  <FLHerne> For each vehicle, you set a start date
18:16:38  <andythenorth> the maximum speed is set by newgrf
18:16:47  <andythenorth> so how does the vehicle catch up if late?
18:16:52  <FLHerne> If the vehicle is too early, it waits at a station until it isn't
18:16:54  <longtomjr> andythenorth, if it is early, it waits at stations till its calculated departure I think
18:16:59  <FLHerne> If it's too late, it gets endlessly later
18:17:12  <FLHerne> (so, your timetable needs some slack)
18:17:19  <andythenorth> but it will inevitably be late
18:17:23  <andythenorth> due to traffic, breakdowns etc
18:17:40  <andythenorth> so slack
18:17:43  <andythenorth> ok
18:17:59  <andythenorth> and the game literally reduces the speed of the vehicles if early?
18:17:59  <FLHerne> andythenorth: I mean, real trains do that too
18:18:06  <longtomjr> That is where the automatic timetabling helps in some cases, it continually adjust for the changes
18:18:16  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Well, if "stopped" is a kind of reduced, yes
18:18:24  <andythenorth> but timetables need the speed setting?
18:18:33  <andythenorth> I have to set all the speed limits and crap
18:18:42  <longtomjr> You dont have to
18:18:47  <andythenorth> I don't?
18:18:51  <FLHerne> andythenorth: The only direct effect of a timetable on a vehicle is to prevent it leaving a station if it's early
18:18:53  <andythenorth> I've never used timetables
18:18:55  <FLHerne> It just keeps loading
18:19:01  <andythenorth> I just do that thing where you set waiting time in stations
18:19:03  <FLHerne> (even if it's full)
18:19:06  <andythenorth> that seems to work fine
18:19:16  <andythenorth> I never understood why people even want timetables
18:19:20  <andythenorth> just set the waiting time
18:19:28  <FLHerne> Because otherwise all your vehicles bunch up
18:19:40  <andythenorth> yeah but if you control the amount of vehicles per station
18:19:43  <andythenorth> and set waiting time
18:19:45  <andythenorth> they can't
18:19:51  <andythenorth> it's like a flow rate control
18:19:55  <FLHerne> That sounds like it would be ugly and messy
18:20:11  <FLHerne> Timetables would be elegant if they worked
18:20:53  <longtomjr> FLHerne, have you used scheduled dispatch before?
18:21:04  * andythenorth considers screen recording current game
18:21:17  <andythenorth> I have a non-contrived example with trains
18:21:19  <andythenorth> trams *
18:21:41  <FLHerne> longtomjr: This is a JGR thing?
18:21:57  <FLHerne> I don't think so
18:22:07  <longtomjr> I think it is a jgr thing yep
18:22:31  <longtomjr> I am by no means an expert on it, but it seems to work really well for a lot of cases.
18:22:57  <andythenorth> this is a simple route, but the trams just have 'wait for 5 days' at one of the stations
18:23:01  <andythenorth> so that naturally spaces them
18:23:05  <andythenorth> no timetables at all
18:23:22  <andythenorth> they do bunch outside the 'wait' station sometimes though
18:27:42  <TrueBrain> frosch123: what do you think of the language postfix on links I added?
18:28:15  <TrueBrain> <- I also now removed the "Other languages" category, in favour of this way of presenting it
18:31:01  <TrueBrain> <- what is wrong with release notes? Lol . this feels so double :P
18:31:45  <andythenorth> it's misplaced diligence :)
18:31:57  <andythenorth> you know how it goes :)
18:32:12  <FLHerne> longtomjr: This seems a bit kludged onto the existing system, but it is a big improvement
18:32:22  <TrueBrain> frosch123: <- pages as templates aren't fixed properly yet?
18:33:04  <TrueBrain> (I was looking for a {{Page: example to see if my implementation really works :D)
18:34:03  <TrueBrain> hmm .. 3 minutes and 45 seconds to render all pages .. that time is decreasing while we are adding features :P
18:34:28  <LordAro> TrueBrain: don't suppose i could convince you that spaces in URLs are ugly and should be replaced with underscores?
18:34:31  <TrueBrain> not sure why, honestly .. I am guessing more and more shit is removed from the export, speeding things up :D
18:34:44  <TrueBrain> LordAro: "ugly" for who?
18:34:54  <LordAro> me, looking at the links you're posting :p
18:35:02  <TrueBrain> yes .. don't look at links, click them :P
18:35:08  <TrueBrain> so much prettier that way :D
18:35:11  <LordAro> putty doesn't have clickable links :(
18:35:31  <TrueBrain> ..... I .... well, the 1% can fuck off :P :P :P
18:35:32  <TrueBrain> <3 :D
18:35:39  <TrueBrain> no, I really don't care, spaces or _
18:35:43  <LordAro> i imagine your matrix client is doing something fancy with them
18:35:45  <TrueBrain> but know that in the wiki a lot of escaping is needed of URLs
18:36:05  <TrueBrain>
18:36:12  <TrueBrain> I mean ... links really do not get prettier
18:36:19  <LordAro> mm, you're not wrong
18:36:26  <TrueBrain> so we all kinda have to give up on making links pretty, tbh :)
18:36:42  <TrueBrain> in the browser, there it should be pretty :D
18:37:12  <LordAro> :p
18:37:20  <LordAro>'t)%20Hurt%20Your%20Eyes%20;-) should there be files here?
18:37:28  <LordAro> s/files/images/
18:38:36  <TrueBrain> Upload 'File:Scn-DontHurtYourEyes-Screenshot.png' does not exist
18:38:36  <TrueBrain> Upload 'File:Scn-DontHurtYourEyes-Minimap.png' does not exist
18:39:41  <TrueBrain> currently, we have: 1025 invalid namespaces in links, 1069 missing templates, 1478 missing uploads and 16914 missing pages
18:39:51  <TrueBrain> NO clue how many are currently not on the wiki too
18:39:56  <TrueBrain> so those stats mean nothing :D
18:41:40  <LordAro>;-) well they work here :p
18:42:59  <frosch123> TrueBrain: page templates are on the list for this evening
18:43:05  <TrueBrain> frosch123: ah, sweet :)
18:43:17  <frosch123> and i am gainst replacing spaces with underscores
18:43:23  <frosch123> that adds ambiguity again
18:43:24  <TrueBrain> LordAro: yes .. together with 1476 other missing images ;) frosch123 is still busy with it :)
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18:43:31  <TrueBrain> frosch123: he already was convinced, I think :P
18:44:27  <LordAro> very good :)
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18:44:34  <TrueBrain> frosch123: I am fixing some more errors on the live wiki btw :)
18:44:39  <TrueBrain> like the broken gallery tags in a few, etc
18:45:08  <TrueBrain> LordAro: basically, frosch123 is reading the wikitext and fixing links and figuring out what files are used etc ... but people did some weird-ass shit
18:45:12  <TrueBrain> in this case, it is an image behind a template
18:45:16  <TrueBrain> which is VERY hard to deduce
18:45:21  <TrueBrain> but we will get there :)
18:45:34  <TrueBrain> the numbers above, were over 70k errors last week :P
18:45:42  <LordAro> :)
18:46:33  <TrueBrain> but if you notice issues with how things are rendered or anything else non-content related, please let me know
18:46:36  <TrueBrain> as that for sure is not intended :)
18:46:54  <frosch123> TrueBrain: the links (language) are nice when you do not expect a link to another language. but they are confusing when you look at images which are used in all languages. <- it would be easier to read if the "used on english page" also had that language tag
18:47:25  <frosch123> TrueBrain: btw. do the link tooltips ever show something else than the link text?
18:47:30  <TrueBrain> that would require a lookup from "en" to "english", but I agree
18:47:42  <TrueBrain> frosch123: 99% of the time, no ..
18:47:47  <TrueBrain> it is one of those things mediawiki does
18:47:57  <TrueBrain> I was considering just dropping that honestly
18:48:02  <frosch123> can we show the full path in the tooltip then?
18:48:10  <TrueBrain> sure
18:48:13  <TrueBrain> we can do anything :P
18:48:15  <TrueBrain> sounds like a good idea
18:48:26  <TrueBrain> I wrote it down!
18:49:19  <frosch123> we will get a lot of pages/templates with identical names
18:49:40  <frosch123> currently we have a lot "Main Page", and i am planning to do the same for "TOC" templates
18:49:49  <frosch123> not sure yet how to name them
18:50:24  <TrueBrain> you should never see "Main Page" anywhere btw :P Well, except for source/edit
18:51:10  <frosch123> LordAro: btw. i moved all changelogs into "archive", so in the future we have a reason to only link to the website changelog, instead someone copying it to the wiki
18:51:28  <LordAro> but the links!
18:52:09  <frosch123> but i won't be surprised when translators translate the archive
18:52:25  <frosch123> i mean, they translated 10 year old talk pages...
18:52:51  <frosch123> i wonder when they translate the forums
18:53:19  <TrueBrain> haha :D
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18:54:48  <TrueBrain> hmmm ... "View Source" doesn't show the source, it seems :P
18:55:15  <TrueBrain> yeah, pretty sure it isn't :D
18:57:33  <TrueBrain> hahahaha, oooooppppssss
18:57:41  <TrueBrain> parser functions are resolved in the source :D
18:58:54  <TrueBrain> hmmm ... opinion time frosch123
18:59:07  <TrueBrain> should "[[ File:bla.png ]]" work? (a space between [[ and File)
18:59:13  <TrueBrain> the syntax is, strictly seen: [[File
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19:00:49  <LordAro> TrueBrain: i would say no
19:00:57  <TrueBrain> an example where it breaks:
19:00:59  <frosch123> TrueBrain: yes, that should work. we also support \n in template parameters and more, so wikilinks/images should not be different
19:01:04  <TrueBrain> all those spaces break it :)
19:01:11  <frosch123> however, my conversion fixes File:\s*foobar
19:01:30  <TrueBrain> I do strip results of switches, as example
19:01:30  <frosch123> no idea how that worked in mediawiki, but maybe only in templates
19:01:44  <TrueBrain> so removing the space between [[ and {{ should be sufficient
19:02:33  <TrueBrain> it does fix it :P
19:03:10  <FLHerne> Can someone explain why action6.free_parameters belongs to action6 (and not actionD) ?
19:03:23  <TrueBrain> asking the real questions here FLHerne  :)
19:03:42  <TrueBrain> frosch123: I am tempted to not support it for now, as it only breaks very rarely, and really seems easy to fix .. let's see how it goes, I would say :)
19:04:18  <FLHerne> I mean, even its own status message says "Concurrent ActionD registers: ..."
19:04:59  <frosch123> i am the culprit for naming the latter :)
19:05:05  <frosch123> no idea who put it in action6
19:05:15  <frosch123> maybe action6 was the first thing to use them
19:06:32  <TrueBrain> hmmm ... my cache file became corrupted ... oh-oh
19:06:38  <frosch123> but we have all the fancy names :) a0properties, va2variables, va2registers, a679Dparameters
19:06:54  <frosch123> properties, variables, registers, parameters :) all different
19:06:54  <FLHerne> mm
19:07:47  <FLHerne> I think that message should be 'parameters' for consistency with everything else?
19:08:35  <frosch123> then they ran out of words and had to resolve to combined terms like "patch variables" (recoined to gamesetting somewhen)
19:09:23  <FLHerne> And the generic 'storages' when you're not sure which word applies :p
19:09:39  <frosch123> FLHerne: i am not sure how consistent those terms really are. it's better to add redundancy for unambiguoty
19:10:00  <frosch123> FLHerne: do you mean temporary or persistent storage? :p
19:10:38  <FLHerne> No, permanent storage
19:10:51  <frosch123> FLHerne: i think i picked "action d registers", since nml uses "parameters" for user-defines parameters only, not those auto-allocated ones
19:11:26  <FLHerne> The code uses 'parameter' for almost everything to do with them
19:11:43  <frosch123> and the docs?
19:12:06  <FLHerne> Well, the docs don't have anything to say about NML's internals
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19:25:25  <TrueBrain> frosch123: I fixed all the image errors and gallery issues on the live wiki
19:25:40  <TrueBrain> we have 36 "{{TALKPAGENAME}}" entries .. not sure what we want to do with that
19:26:24  <frosch123> TrueBrain: didn't i already fix the File: in the conversion?
19:26:40  <TrueBrain> "the File:", what are you referring to, sorry?
19:26:52  <frosch123> the image errors you are refering to
19:27:10  <TrueBrain> no, these were things you don't want to fix in your script :)
19:27:17  <TrueBrain> like people typing "grame" instead of frame
19:27:29  <TrueBrain> in the "--validate-all" it reported a few cases
19:27:57  <frosch123> <- pretty sure i auto-fixed that at some point, maybe i broke it again :p
19:28:26  <TrueBrain> its fixed now :P
19:28:34  <TrueBrain> sometimes it is easier to do the work than to add glue for it
19:29:07  <TrueBrain> [[:OpenTTD:Village Pump|OpenTTD:Village Pump]]
19:29:08  <TrueBrain> lol
19:29:11  <TrueBrain> stupid village pump :D
19:30:16  <frosch123> i think i trashed it, but things get confusing :p
19:30:44  <TrueBrain>
19:30:49  <TrueBrain> it is ... a special page, to say the least
19:31:16  <TrueBrain> the banner links to a page that doesn't exist
19:31:54  <TrueBrain> fixed the link .. just ... because I can!
19:31:55  <TrueBrain> :D
19:32:48  <frosch123> i am not sure what to do with links to trashed pages, or TALKPAGENAME :)
19:33:04  <TrueBrain> just leave them as "dead" pages, honestly
19:33:13  <TrueBrain> and add them to your list of "known dead links" :)
19:33:29  <TrueBrain> a, I meant "dead" links, not pages
19:33:49  <TrueBrain> it will be a while before all the old crap is really removed .. it will require some manual labor, I am sure
19:34:04  <TrueBrain> we do have an active translation team by now on GitHub, hopefully they can also fix the translation on the wiki :P
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19:36:05  <TrueBrain> right, when-ever you make a new API export, few more issues should be fixed .. nothing more I can do for you there :) Mostly it is up to you now .. sorry :P
19:41:58  <TrueBrain> <- small QoL going a long way :)
19:42:42  <frosch123> hmm. when i have {{Foobar}}... what does it check first? Template:Foobar or Main:Foobar ?
19:43:51  <TrueBrain> well, last we talked about this, you said it shouldn't check either/or
19:44:03  <TrueBrain> so {{Foobar]} resolves to Template/Foobar (which doesn't exist, ever)
19:44:06  <frosch123> yes, for truewiki, for sure :)
19:44:10  <frosch123> but what does mediawiki do?
19:44:12  <TrueBrain> ah :D
19:44:15  <frosch123> i need to convert them :)
19:44:27  <TrueBrain> euh .... we have that ambiguity?
19:44:32  <TrueBrain> I think it does template first
19:44:37  <TrueBrain> but ... honestly no clue
19:44:43  <frosch123> i hope not. i went for Template:
19:44:44  <TrueBrain> I just hope nobody in his right mind would do that :P
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19:45:48  <frosch123> {{User:Pystro/Template:Link Translation}} <- great...
19:47:05  <frosch123> i hate translators :)
19:47:23  <TrueBrain> the Pystro ones are ... rather annoying to work your way through
19:47:26  <TrueBrain> I know from experience :(
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19:51:54  <TrueBrain> right, merged a bunch of fixes into truewiki .. now "source" should really be  "source" :D
19:52:28  <TrueBrain> this weekend I want to finish editing
19:52:47  <TrueBrain> hopefully that is easy enough :D
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20:08:36  <andythenorth> hmm
20:08:39  <andythenorth> boats aren't trains
20:08:45  * andythenorth realises things
20:09:45  *** D-HUND is now known as debdog
20:11:14  <frosch123> sometimes you implement one thing, and it fixes another thing
20:14:35  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Unless they're barge trains
20:17:45  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Or this
20:26:19  <andythenorth> yes
20:28:38  <frosch123> TrueBrain: migrated page transclusions. funnily my refactoring for that also fixed a lot of other templates :p
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20:33:09  <TrueBrain> Nice!!
20:33:23  <TrueBrain> Will check it out tomorrow :D
20:33:32  <TrueBrain> How many errors left?
20:33:40  <frosch123> 7k3
20:33:50  <frosch123> it goes up and down :)
20:35:40  <TrueBrain> Wasnt it 6k a few days ago? :p
20:35:55  <frosch123> yes, then you detected more issues
20:36:08  <TrueBrain> Owh, yes ... templates missing :D
20:36:14  <frosch123> not blaming you :)
20:36:39  <TrueBrain> :D
20:37:45  <andythenorth> I think the internet has been won
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20:53:23  <andythenorth> oof I thought maybe ship types would be like train types
20:53:28  <andythenorth> so Water Horse, or Water Hog
20:53:34  <andythenorth> doesn't match up though
20:53:43  * andythenorth Redesign!
20:54:13  <frosch123> 6k7
21:06:48  <TrueBrain> Like watching an election in reverse :D
21:32:06  <Heiki> there’s railtypes and roadtypes, but when will we have watertypes?
21:32:27  <frosch123> we have waterclasses
21:33:24  <frosch123> sea, river, canal
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21:33:45  <Heiki> ah, true
21:34:01  <Heiki> but no electrified canals yet
21:34:15  <Heiki> (also airtypes)
21:34:43  <LordAro> short & long runways/planes
21:35:03  <LordAro> :p
21:35:15  <LordAro> and helicopters, of course
21:36:30  <andythenorth> is it naptime?
21:36:36  <frosch123> Heiki: nuts has wetrail
21:36:58  <frosch123> andythenorth: it's weekend for me :p
21:38:04  <andythenorth> cheating
21:38:10  <andythenorth> haxor!
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21:48:02  <frosch123> 5k4
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21:49:44  <andythenorth> x/y%
21:58:45  <frosch123> how weird, my query of WantedPages seems to be incomplete
22:09:17  <frosch123> ok, i hit a mediawiki bug :)
22:09:55  <frosch123> the pagination of wantedpages does not work, it sorts the pages indeterministic
22:10:07  <frosch123> so i get many duplicates and many missing
22:10:45  <frosch123> <- yeah, different results on every reload :/
22:11:01  <frosch123> i guess i just reload it 10 times, and hope to hit most :p
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22:20:51  <frosch123> hey, results are stable after 4 reloads
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22:23:13  <frosch123> 3k6....
22:23:26  <frosch123> that's the most stupid reduction due to a mediawiki bug :)
22:28:21  <TrueBrain> That is insane....
22:28:44  <andythenorth> :)
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22:29:06  <TrueBrain> Well, seriously fucked up even :p
22:32:05  <frosch123> ok, 5 cases of " " after "[["
22:32:19  <frosch123> fixed them with the script, let's rerun the check
22:33:03  <frosch123> hmm, i guess the same applies for " " after "{{" ?
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22:39:25  <TrueBrain> Likely, but possibly not :D
22:39:42  <TrueBrain> Initially I stripped everything .. but that does break some things too :p
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22:49:40  <frosch123> [[<!--AI:Main Page-->SI:Strona_główna/Pl|NoAI Framework]]  <- great...
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