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Log for #openttd on 6th January 2021:
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00:16:13  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] kiwitreekor commented on issue #8506: Town builds unnecessary junctions on highway https://git.io/JLN40
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00:31:23  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #8505: Feature: Allow converting track under trains when compatible with the new rail type https://git.io/JLNEi
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01:50:07  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/nml] GreyfurWolf opened issue #180: NML erroring out when compiling https://git.io/JLNgG
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02:18:21  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on issue #8506: Town builds unnecessary junctions on highway https://git.io/JLN40
02:45:58  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/nml] glx22 commented on issue #180: NML erroring out when compiling https://git.io/JLNgG
03:17:27  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/nml] glx22 opened pull request #181: Fix #180: No proper error message was given, if an unreferenced Strin… https://git.io/JLNwo
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04:35:29  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/team] Luis45ccs opened issue #122: [es_ES] Translator access request https://git.io/JLNKO
04:38:49  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/team] Luis45ccs commented on issue #122: [es_ES] Translator access request https://git.io/JLNKO
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05:17:37  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] kiwitreekor commented on issue #8506: Town builds unnecessary junctions on highway https://git.io/JLN40
05:36:24  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] kiwitreekor commented on issue #8506: Town builds unnecessary junctions on highway https://git.io/JLN40
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08:16:10  <andythenorth> yo
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09:03:39  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] erenes commented on issue #8194: Releases from version 1.10.1 no longer work on mid-2007 iMac https://git.io/JfMJz
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09:53:17  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] erenes commented on issue #7604: Buildings "wander" north away from roads https://git.io/fjBBq
10:01:42  <Wolf01> ^ I always hated this :P
10:04:04  <Xaroth> But what if that person just wanted to live out in the wild?
10:06:08  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Kuhnovic commented on pull request #8274: Feature: option to auto remove signals when in the way during rail co… https://git.io/JLNd2
10:06:48  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on issue #7604: Buildings "wander" north away from roads https://git.io/fjBBq
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10:11:01  <Wolf01> Btw, what if we move some settings in the toolbars? If a setting changes the behaviour of a function it could be moved near that function (still saved as a setting, like the transparency options), you can change it on the fly if needed and don't need to look for it in that mess
10:11:52  <andythenorth> photoshop does a lot of that
10:11:56  <andythenorth> tool-based settings
10:12:13  <andythenorth> remove-wagons in auto-replace is an example we have
10:12:36  <andythenorth> signal spacing is another
10:12:49  <andythenorth> station building UI
10:13:06  <Wolf01> Maybe even ctrl+rightclick+pentacle to show up a combo box for a button?
10:13:10  <Eddi|zuHause> we probably should have all settings in two places: the settings window, where you can search for them, and some other place, where you would expect them
10:13:21  <Eddi|zuHause> well, not necessarily "all"
10:13:45  <Eddi|zuHause> but for example everything that's in the "new game" dialog, should also be in the settings window
10:15:56  <Wolf01> Yup, in my company's softwares we use to have "setups" where you define what is proposed as default value on forms with selections
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10:18:54  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8006: Codechange: Increase scrollbar length limit to UINT_MAX and make their length properly unsigned https://git.io/JLNFW
10:19:03  <TrueBrain> LordAro: 3 real bugs, 1 question, 2 "my brain works different" :P
10:19:07  <TrueBrain> boy, that was hard to review :)
10:19:24  <LordAro> :D
10:26:08  <TrueBrain> "(b > a) ? 0 : a - b" vs "(a < b) ? 0 : a - b" .. GO! :D
10:26:35  <TrueBrain> (and yes, the = doesn't matter here)
10:26:52  <TrueBrain> pretty curious how other people's brains are primed .. do you favour the left or the right?
10:31:44  * Timberwolf tries to follow "make the simpler case come at the end of the line" approach.
10:32:08  <Timberwolf> So technically neither of those!
10:32:28  <TrueBrain> do you want cookie A or cookie B? NEITHER! I WANT A CAKE!
10:32:29  <TrueBrain> :P
10:32:40  <TrueBrain> so you get nothing :P
10:32:41  <TrueBrain> :D
10:33:02  <TrueBrain> even putting "0" at the end, you still have both cases; so I still wonder which of the two you prefer :)
10:33:11  <Timberwolf> I think I'd probably go with (a < b)
10:34:05  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne commented on pull request #181: Fix #180: No proper error message was given, if an unreferenced Strin… https://git.io/JLNbw
10:34:33  <Timberwolf> It's a weird scanning thing, somehow it's easier to read to me with the '<' symbol than the '>' symbol.
10:36:53  <TrueBrain> so you would pick "(b < a) ? a - b : 0" rather than "(a > b) ? a - b : 0" ?
10:37:06  <TrueBrain> I want to make this a twitter poll :D I am really curious how people's mind work with this :D
10:37:30  <TrueBrain> as I think it is how you process information in your head, what you can process better
10:38:22  <Timberwolf> If they're real variable names. But with 'a' and 'b', I'm not so sure. Like that seems to break what I think of as the natural "scan" order.
10:38:53  <Timberwolf> This is starting to feel like there's something unwritten here, like the way English never talks about "green big dragons"
10:39:29  <TrueBrain> I just ran into this in a PR, and my brain crashed on it .. but I can fully understand it is my brain being the issue here :)
10:39:38  <TrueBrain> that makes me wonder how other people perceive the world :)
10:39:55  <TrueBrain> (my brain crashed on ba <-> ab, basically)
10:40:01  <Timberwolf> Yeah, I'm trying to figure out what the actual rules are. I think I'm wrong with the direction of the sign, it's the alphabetical order which is strongest.
10:40:53  <TrueBrain> alphabet? Or order of variables? As in: "(a > b) ? 0 : b - a" vs "(b < a) ? 0 : b - a"
10:40:54  <Timberwolf> Like there's some cognitive load difference between "this is the order I normally see these symbols in" vs. "this is not"
10:41:38  <TrueBrain> guess a and b are too abstract for this
10:41:44  <TrueBrain> brains are funny
10:41:49  <Timberwolf> So here's the weird thing. I feel like I care a lot about "(a > b)" vs. "(b < a)" but the fact it's "b - a" doesn't trigger the same pathways.
10:43:04  <TrueBrain> tnx for your insight in this :D I really want to make it a twitter poll now ..
10:43:07  <TrueBrain> maybe for next livestream :P
10:43:09  <Timberwolf> I wish I knew more about this stuff. If I guessed I'd say it's something about data you've seen thousands of times, vs. data that's new.
10:43:35  <Eddi|zuHause> all i see is "this should be a hidden overflow check"
10:43:48  <Timberwolf> Like the only reason I prefer (a < b) is because I have a huge number of experiences of seing "a" before "b" in that context.
10:44:11  <TrueBrain> I think if you worked on a product that always does "a > b ? 0 : b - a", in what-ever form, you will always do that. If you are used to the inverse, you always expect that .. I guess you get primed by what-ever you are used to from what-ever you worked on
10:44:14  <TrueBrain> yeah, exactly :)
10:44:35  <Eddi|zuHause> i seem to have a small bias towards "<" over ">", not sure why
10:44:55  <Timberwolf> There's probably a lot of programming convention that ultimately comes down to, "eh, Grace Hopper flipped a coin the first time it was done"
10:45:46  <TrueBrain> or someone had a strong opinion about it and I just said: sure
10:45:47  <TrueBrain> :D
10:46:04  <TrueBrain> just look at PEP-8 :D
10:48:58  <TrueBrain> funny, the wandering town houses problem :)
10:49:12  <TrueBrain> the code is indeed a bit too simplistic there :D
10:49:16  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, but it's been there since TTO
10:50:06  <TrueBrain> solving it isn't simple, as in: there is nothing obvious to solve it with
10:51:41  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on issue #7604: Buildings "wander" north away from roads https://git.io/fjBBq
10:57:36  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/nml] glx22 commented on pull request #181: Fix #180: No proper error message was given, if an unreferenced Strin… https://git.io/JLNAa
10:59:29  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on issue #7604: Buildings "wander" north away from roads https://git.io/fjBBq
10:59:46  <TrueBrain> altering the town growth to replace houses a lot is fun to watch :D
11:03:13  <TrueBrain> https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/1663690/103761547-2038df00-5017-11eb-920d-881889c53ead.png
11:03:15  <TrueBrain> hihihi :)
11:03:38  <TrueBrain> the chances of getting him out this far in a normal game is like 0.0001%, but okay :)
11:05:52  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on issue #8194: Releases from version 1.10.1 no longer work on mid-2007 iMac https://git.io/JfMJz
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11:19:37  <TrueBrain> why can I only produce 1x2 buildings, and not 2x1 buildings? :D
11:20:23  <TrueBrain> guess the default stuff doesn't have a 2x1 building? :D
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11:36:12  <TrueBrain> and here we go again!!! :D
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11:36:48  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] erenes commented on issue #8194: Releases from version 1.10.1 no longer work on mid-2007 iMac https://git.io/JfMJz
11:36:51  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] erenes closed issue #8194: Releases from version 1.10.1 no longer work on mid-2007 iMac https://git.io/JfMJz
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11:41:56  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain opened pull request #8507: Fix #7604: prevent houses to wander too far from town center when rebuilding https://git.io/JLNpN
11:42:15  <TrueBrain> that was a fun little bug :)
11:44:57  <LordAro> :)
11:45:12  <TrueBrain> most time spend on testing my fix ... was not easy :P
11:45:34  <TrueBrain> can't wait for people to make their own town growth algorithms, honestly .. it is fun to toy with :D
11:50:12  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8274: Feature: option to auto remove signals when in the way during rail co… https://git.io/JLNhE
11:51:30  <LordAro> TrueBrain: you should absolutely write a blog post about it
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11:58:34  <Timberwolf> I'd like to build a town growth algorithm that can interact with roadtypes.
11:58:56  <Timberwolf> So the town builds its own major and minor roads.
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12:05:00  <Borg> satan! I mean hi :D
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12:05:50  <Borg> okey. after playing for whole day.. w/ new YAPF settings.... its absulutly briliant now..
12:06:10  <Borg> multiple AUX path (close to ECMP) are selected..
12:06:26  <Borg> path w/ penalty. are selected rary... its damn great!
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12:47:42  <TrueBrain> LordAro: I guess ... tt-forums or news post, any preference?
12:57:07  <Timberwolf> News post might be nice IMO.
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13:12:57  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8473: Add: Towns can build tunnels https://git.io/JLAJK
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13:15:02  <Samu> hi
13:16:58  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8473: Add: Towns can build tunnels https://git.io/JLAJj
13:21:33  <LordAro> TrueBrain: i'd go with news post
13:21:44  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #8439: Feature: Make town bridge max length a function of its population https://git.io/JLMy3
13:23:22  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #8439: Feature: Make town bridge max length a function of its population https://git.io/JLMy3
13:24:59  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8439: Feature: Make town bridge max length a function of its population https://git.io/JLAUg
13:25:22  <TrueBrain> do we want to keep these 2 PRs based on town population (The max length birdge and tunnel), or do we want to look for other metrics?
13:25:29  <TrueBrain> I think this is good enough for a first version, honestly
13:29:06  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain approved pull request #8439: Feature: Make town bridge max length a function of its population https://git.io/JLAUK
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13:34:43  <Samu> im turning my flooding PR into a draft again
13:34:52  <Samu> got some new testings done
13:35:47  <Samu> tuns out I don't need overcomplicated checks
13:39:23  <Samu> seems that I only need to check 2 slope configurations
13:39:37  <Samu> slope with one corner and flat
13:40:07  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain approved pull request #8274: Feature: option to auto remove signals when in the way during rail co… https://git.io/JLAUh
13:49:19  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain requested changes for pull request #8444: Feature: Close adjacent level crossings as if they were one large crossing https://git.io/JLATR
13:49:23  <TrueBrain> that PR is not in a good state, sorry to say :(
13:54:16  <Samu> mine?
13:59:33  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8473: Add: Towns can build tunnels https://git.io/JLATx
14:12:02  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #8492: Fix: Don't allow towns to terraform certain floodable tiles https://git.io/JLdA0
14:12:05  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler commented on pull request #8473: Add: Towns can build tunnels https://git.io/JLAkr
14:14:14  <Samu> much simpler checks
14:15:26  <Samu> fits in a single line https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/8492/files#diff-2435a884057fcf692871728ce3d0726330c4120b00d7b07514eaa0ec310b0fd5R1384
14:30:16  <Samu> hmm I have a problem terraforming close to void tiles
14:30:33  <Samu> not sure if it's worth solving it
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14:50:21  <TrueBrain> https://gist.github.com/TrueBrain/fe3c80e7dc9313b7ac7941540e5dee22#gistcomment-3584350 <- oof, I wrote stuff ... pretty sure I could have done with less words :P
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14:58:30  <LordAro> that is a lot of words
14:59:23  <TrueBrain> yup; a design can be made in a fraction of that :P
14:59:23  * andythenorth reads
14:59:35  <TrueBrain> well, the summary does just that :D
15:00:01  <andythenorth> Off-topic: I don't think it's backwards to assess what's possible alongside what is wanted :P
15:00:07  <andythenorth> just different sides of same coin
15:00:48  <TrueBrain> you need both, but to talk a bit more in design-terms: if you consider the two-diamond approach to go from idea to implementation, I am skipping the first to jump to the second, to scope the first further
15:00:50  <TrueBrain> that is not ideal
15:01:01  <andythenorth> +1
15:01:14  <andythenorth> but if life was ideal :P
15:01:21  <TrueBrain> but I also don't see us working through the first diamond before jumping to the second, so .. yeah ..
15:01:28  <TrueBrain> pay me a salary, and we can talk :P :D
15:01:35  * andythenorth has a blank expression about timing and deadlines
15:01:54  <TrueBrain> NewGRFs make the game slow; GSes will make it even more slow, is the tldr there :)
15:02:05  <andythenorth> when I was thinking about this around newgrf, I assumed it would have to be defended by design against 'slow'
15:02:14  <andythenorth> using 'async' for whatever we think async means
15:02:24  <andythenorth> i.e. just don't try and do expensive things
15:02:32  <andythenorth> and rely on results that may not get updated frequently
15:02:45  <TrueBrain> we have seen with AIs, if you give people a full-fledge language, they will do stupid shit and make the game slow :P
15:02:50  <andythenorth> yeah
15:03:05  <TrueBrain> but I guess we just add performance warnings .. "This GS is slowing down your game"
15:03:06  <andythenorth> this is economy and map stuff, not pathfinding though, how fast does it need to be?
15:03:25  <TrueBrain> well, my example comes to mind: you want to grow the town? Let me scan EVERY TILE OF THIS MAP FOR YOU
15:03:32  <TrueBrain> that will grind the game to an halt :)
15:03:47  <andythenorth> newgrf example: using lots of restrictive placement checks on industries makes map gen very slow
15:03:50  <andythenorth> so .... don't do it
15:04:06  <andythenorth> this one is a known real case ^
15:04:26  <TrueBrain> in a good design, you define deadline and measure if things meet them .. I guess in this case it will be: we measure it, and yell if they don't meet the deadline, but go fucking ahead otherwise :P
15:04:56  <TrueBrain> yeah, but the NewGRF example is a bit faulty, in the sense that: the NewGRF callback finishes quick
15:05:02  <TrueBrain> just the game cannot place an industry anywhere, and keeps trying
15:05:06  <andythenorth> yes
15:05:09  <TrueBrain> here it is that the callback just takes FOR EVER to finish
15:05:09  <andythenorth> and that's the author's mistake
15:05:13  <TrueBrain> so the game is no longer in control
15:05:17  <TrueBrain> so the UI stutters
15:05:22  <TrueBrain> like .. a lot :P
15:05:28  <TrueBrain> (we cannot even draw during the callback)
15:05:30  <andythenorth> yeah that's bad
15:05:38  <TrueBrain> so the effects are much more ... noticeable :)
15:05:43  <TrueBrain> a lot less .. subtle :D
15:06:01  <TrueBrain> it is the whole reason AIs work btw, because we enforce deadlines :)
15:06:17  <TrueBrain> AI-authors don't like it :P I have been told many many many many times :D
15:06:57  <andythenorth> I guess you just have to code defensively for it :P
15:07:15  * andythenorth hasn't experienced it in OpenTTD, newgrf is never slow in the newgrf part
15:07:26  <TrueBrain> but the more I think about it, the more I realise it will just be fine to pop up the performance overview if a GS starts to become silly slow
15:07:29  <andythenorth> but I used to code a lot of Flash games, defensive coding was a thing
15:07:34  <TrueBrain> and just point to: THIS is why your game is lagging
15:07:58  <TrueBrain> "defensive" coding misses context; security-wise defensive? :P
15:08:02  <TrueBrain> what do you mean with it :)
15:08:19  <andythenorth> us Flash game coders were all pretty self-taught and not very good
15:08:34  <andythenorth> so it was really basic stuff like "don't write unclosed loops (dumbass)"
15:08:46  <andythenorth> but also there were things in Flash that were slow and we used to hunt them down
15:08:56  <andythenorth> like animating shapes with a lot of vectors
15:09:09  <andythenorth> or fonts...we used to convert the fonts to bitmap pixels for performance
15:09:21  <TrueBrain> I cannot predict how this will effect OpenTTD atm .. hence the PoV suggestion, so we can find out :D
15:09:31  <andythenorth> "A script in your browser is running slowly, do you want to terminate it" :P
15:09:40  <TrueBrain> well, exactly
15:09:48  <TrueBrain> just ours would be: "a GS was running slow, we terminated it"
15:10:04  <andythenorth> hmm
15:10:44  <andythenorth> maybe we could do it all like the DOM, attach arbitrary scripts to arbitrary nodes, with extensible attributes everywhere, and no namespacing?
15:10:47  <andythenorth> great idea
15:10:58  <TrueBrain> go sit in the corner
15:11:16  <andythenorth> every time I have to write javascript, I'm newly amazed by how mad it is
15:11:28  <andythenorth> like it's conventional to just keep state in a ... <div> or whatever
15:11:30  <andythenorth> wtf?
15:12:29  <TrueBrain> the only reason it is a bad idea to make a VM per controller, is that a VM has a stack
15:12:40  <TrueBrain> but boy, it would solve the deadline issue :D
15:12:56  <TrueBrain> owh, the stack is just a vector
15:13:05  <TrueBrain> unusual, but .. means it is not that heavy in terms of memory
15:16:14  <TrueBrain> defaults to 1024, but we can reduce that I guess
15:16:56  <TrueBrain> something to fiddle with :P
15:17:00  <TrueBrain> first, 1.11 :)
15:17:58  <TrueBrain> owh, btw, with a system like Controllers like this, I can think up some crazy shit we could do :D
15:18:09  <TrueBrain> don't know if I wrote it down, but an AI is just a Controller for a Player :)
15:18:18  <TrueBrain> but it also means you can do tutorials, or a cinematic viewer ... :D
15:20:03  <andythenorth> yeah it makes sense
15:20:31  <andythenorth> how insane is that things like windows could get controllers in like....10 years time?
15:20:37  <andythenorth> too insane?
15:20:47  <TrueBrain> what do you mean?
15:21:08  <andythenorth> curious about scriptable UI
15:21:20  <andythenorth> I have NFI about implementation or anything
15:21:33  <andythenorth> just see players complaining about stuff sometimes
15:21:33  <TrueBrain> should be rather easy, in this concept
15:21:43  <TrueBrain> just it might be hard to assign benefit
15:22:08  * andythenorth thinks scriptable UIs are a 0.1% feature
15:22:09  <TrueBrain> basically, anything that is an instance in C++, you can assign to a controller (as it really is already a controller)
15:22:11  <andythenorth> emacs users :P
15:24:31  <TrueBrain> I wonder how threadable this concept is ..
15:24:39  <TrueBrain> all GSes can read at once, basically
15:24:43  <TrueBrain> and their writing is done via DoCommands
15:24:55  <TrueBrain> future-additions :P
15:25:59  <Samu> mapsize could have 1 extra void tile
15:27:05  <Samu> im trying to get the height of a tile + tilediff (1, 1), where tile is the bottom corner of the map
15:30:33  <Samu> TileHeightOutsideMap is not too smart
15:35:40  <andythenorth> TrueBrain got any candidate ideas for how they communicate?
15:36:27  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: it depends a bit on what we want from it, what information to store
15:36:40  <TrueBrain> is it key-value information
15:36:42  <TrueBrain> or is it more
15:36:56  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain dismissed a review for pull request #8439: Feature: Make town bridge max length a function of its population https://git.io/JLD72
15:37:06  <andythenorth> can I pass a script? :P
15:37:09  * andythenorth straight to evil
15:37:20  <TrueBrain> you can, but not execute it, so no real help ;)
15:38:00  <andythenorth> towns are a really good practical test case, but I don't know if they're good for finding the use cases
15:38:19  <andythenorth> most of the town stuff, my answers would be 'minimal communication' and 'not often'
15:38:34  <andythenorth> once a town is placed, it needs to run fairly self-contained
15:38:34  <TrueBrain> personally I like registers as it is simple and contained .. I can imagine key-value is more useful, as it is more explicit and can handle more situations .. but I guess it will be JSON :P
15:38:43  <TrueBrain> growth is one of the things there
15:38:46  <TrueBrain> when can a town grow
15:38:53  <TrueBrain> that would require communication, I guess
15:39:05  <andythenorth> when the 'allowed to grow' flag is 1 :P
15:39:13  <andythenorth> which doesn't need updated very often
15:39:15  <TrueBrain> and I suspect people will want to make towns grow in "rings", like suburbs, etc
15:39:26  <andythenorth> yeah there is some interest in that
15:39:32  <TrueBrain> so there are all these pieces that would require communication
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15:39:55  <TrueBrain> currently, as I found out today, towns are rather limited ... 1x1, 1x2, 2x1, 2x2 houses
15:39:56  <TrueBrain> that is it
15:40:01  <andythenorth> I have other (non-town) use cases, but I have to do some grown up stuff first :P
15:40:02  <andythenorth> BIAB
15:40:02  <TrueBrain> and some other properties ofc
15:40:16  <TrueBrain> well, you showed me your use-cases :)
15:40:23  <TrueBrain> but we have to start somewhere, and we cannot do everything at once ;)
15:51:35  <glx> ok I found why nml regression runs are failing
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16:02:12  <Borg> hahaha..
16:02:17  * Borg laugts at compiler
16:02:54  <Borg> I just disassembled OpenTTD... and.. in one simple place I found that short circuit was optimized badly..
16:05:33  <Borg> luicky.. its called once. per game..
16:05:37  <LordAro> Borg: submit a PR!
16:05:39  <Borg> so maybe compiler is so uber smart? ;)
16:05:48  <Borg> LordAro: hmm? :)
16:06:06  <LordAro> if the code its generated from is also written incorrectly
16:06:17  <Borg> no no.. code is perfectly okey (C++) part
16:06:22  <Borg> I think compiler is just trolling..
16:06:44  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] saveinthesky commented on issue #8501: OTTD crashes on start macosx . Log https://git.io/JLNID
16:06:48  <Borg> if (_network_dedicated || (!_networking && !Company::IsValidID(_local_company))) return;
16:13:51  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #8501: OTTD crashes on start macosx . Log https://git.io/JLNID
16:13:54  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro closed issue #8501: OTTD crashes on start macosx . Log https://git.io/JLNID
16:20:19  <andythenorth> TrueBrain this is a dumb question, but if town A wants a result from town B, and town B delegates the result to town A...what happens? :)
16:28:49  <Samu> i guess I better not deal with void tiles
16:50:32  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: that never happens; callbacks are only done downstream
16:50:40  <TrueBrain> communication can go side-wards, but not in an active mechanism
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16:52:42  <andythenorth> equally dumb, town A wants result from town B, and town B calculates result based on asking '5 neighbouring towns' for their results, is that a thing?
16:52:56  * andythenorth trying to understand the flow
16:52:57  <TrueBrain> again, town A cannot "want result from" town B
16:53:24  <TrueBrain> they might have a shared storage, but town A can never request information from another town like that
16:53:31  <andythenorth> hurrah
16:53:46  <TrueBrain> it makes no sense to have that
16:54:06  <andythenorth> reduces the need for devlolopers to learn the hard way about "things I should not do"
17:12:56  *** Wormnest has joined #openttd
17:28:13  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/nml] glx22 opened pull request #182: Fix: regression failure with Pillow 8.1.0 https://git.io/JLAna
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17:46:30  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on pull request #8444: Feature: Close adjacent level crossings as if they were one large crossing https://git.io/JLAcR
17:46:45  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #8444: Feature: Close adjacent level crossings as if they were one large crossing https://git.io/JLAc0
17:48:10  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on pull request #8444: Feature: Close adjacent level crossings as if they were one large crossing https://git.io/JLAcg
17:49:55  <andythenorth> is it naptime?
17:51:46  <TrueBrain> haha Eddi|zuHause , that does explain a thing or two :)
17:52:38  <TrueBrain> I like the feature; would love it if you can dust it off and make it mergeable :)
17:56:25  <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: michi_cc said he wanted to look at the necessary saveload changes, so far i've only done the bare minimum to update it to current master
17:57:05  <TrueBrain> ah :) So yeah, make it a draft ;)
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18:01:03  <supermop_Home> andythenorth i want to nap
18:01:15  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/team] glx22 commented on issue #121: [it_IT] Translator access request https://git.io/JLNqM
18:01:29  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/team] glx22 commented on issue #122: [es_ES] Translator access request https://git.io/JLNKO
18:01:39  <andythenorth> supermop_Home not allowed in your employment contract
18:02:41  <supermop_Home> andythenorth ha we don't have contracts
18:02:50  <supermop_Home> at will employment
18:02:53  <andythenorth> oh yes that
18:04:17  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: what is a good GRF to test trams with?
18:04:52  <andythenorth> eGRVTS, or Road Hog
18:04:59  <TrueBrain> Road Hog I have installed, tnx
18:05:15  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #8468: Fix #8316: Make sort industries by production and transported with a cargo filter possible https://git.io/JLHah
18:06:19  <Samu> very minor fix, instead of return p << 8; it's return p;
18:14:27  <supermop_Home> mopRVs?
18:15:08  <supermop_Home> oddly i started that set just to try to get a couple basic trolley buses into ogfx+ RVs
18:15:47  <supermop_Home> as it seemed like after NRT if ogfx+ had a tram it should have a trolley bus
18:17:11  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on issue #8068: Streetcar track removal fails when bank balance negative https://git.io/JvxRZ
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18:17:32  <TrueBrain> removing bridges with tramrails on it, should be less expensive .. hmm .. I guess ..
18:19:48  <TrueBrain> lol @ comment: 	/* Clearing tram earns a little money, but also incurs the standard clear road cost,
18:19:48  <TrueBrain> 	 * so no profit can be made. */
18:19:50  <TrueBrain> seems that is a lie :D
18:21:49  <TrueBrain> hmm .. you cannot remove tram or road from a bridge without destroying the whole bridge? Awh :(
18:22:02  <frosch123> you can
18:22:09  <Eddi|zuHause> that should be possible
18:22:10  <frosch123> you have to add the other one first
18:22:14  <TrueBrain> I added both
18:22:19  <TrueBrain> and then how?
18:22:23  <Eddi|zuHause> select tram, press "R", click on bridgehead
18:22:24  <frosch123> remove tool
18:22:37  <TrueBrain> the normal buldozer thingy is disabled for bridges
18:22:43  <TrueBrain> owh, you can do it with normal rail
18:23:04  <TrueBrain> not intuitive, but yeah, it works :)
18:23:12  <TrueBrain> you cannot place it that way, but you can remove it that way :D
18:23:26  <Eddi|zuHause> i think you can also place it
18:23:33  <TrueBrain> owh, tram on road bridge, yes
18:23:48  <TrueBrain> and the other way around too .. lol .. it gave me an error when I tried
18:23:53  <TrueBrain> owh well, I must be silly
18:23:55  <TrueBrain> it works indeed
18:24:02  <Eddi|zuHause> you might have tried to build the wrong trackbit
18:24:03  <frosch123> you get an error if there is nothing left
18:24:06  <Samu> where in the code do I check the flood coming from void tiles?
18:24:10  <frosch123> you cannot destroy the bridge with that
18:24:12  <TrueBrain> I keep clicking the wrong trackbit .. so yeah
18:24:27  <TrueBrain> it is really not very clear which part of the road you are clicking on :)
18:24:36  <TrueBrain> some user feedback would be nice .. but not solving all problems today :D
18:24:56  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, similar highlighting as with autorail is needed
18:24:57  <TrueBrain> indeed, it was the trackbit, tnx Eddi|zuHause  :)
18:25:14  <TrueBrain> you can remove it while clicking on the wrong trackbit
18:25:14  <Eddi|zuHause> also, custombridgeheads :p
18:25:15  <TrueBrain> hihi
18:25:25  <TrueBrain> anyway ... lets find why the cost is calculated wrong .. no clue where to look for that :D
18:25:39  <Eddi|zuHause> i think cost calculation is magic
18:27:11  <Samu> oh, TileLoop_Clear has a DoFloodTile, I didn't expect that
18:27:40  <Samu> I was looking hard at TileLoop_Water
18:27:48  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master https://git.io/JLAWA
18:27:49  <DorpsGek>   - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
18:29:37  <TrueBrain> its funny how destroying a bridge cost is calculated :D
18:30:09  <TrueBrain> that indeed is not in line with what happens if you remove tram yourself first :D
18:36:59  <TrueBrain> replacing a bridge is also a bit wonkey, price-wise :)
18:59:15  <TrueBrain> okay, I think destroying a bridge is too cheap :D It doesn't consider what is on the bridge
18:59:24  <TrueBrain> how much will people hate me if I increase the cost of destroying bridges? :D
18:59:48  <TrueBrain> in return, destroying a rail bridge now makes money :P
18:59:55  <frosch123> if you write a wiki page summarizing the cost, we do not have to discuss it 10 times more :)
19:00:22  <TrueBrain> bridges are a bit weird .. basically, destroying them is a fixed fee per tile
19:00:56  <TrueBrain> but road/trams kinda made that weird :D
19:02:17  <TrueBrain> hmm, that fixed, when building, it uses the bridge NewGRF spec price thingy to multiply the value with
19:02:22  <TrueBrain> but not when destroying
19:02:32  <TrueBrain> guess I need to read NewGRF specs now :D
19:03:04  <TrueBrain> "cost factor"
19:03:06  <TrueBrain> well, that was not helping me :D
19:03:37  <TrueBrain> frosch123: what do you think .. cost of building is "bridge_len * _price[PR_BUILD_BRIDGE] * GetBridgeSpec(bridge_type)->price >> 8"
19:03:52  <TrueBrain> cost of removing is "bridge_len * _price[PR_CLEAR_BRIDGE]"
19:03:58  <TrueBrain> should that "price >> 8" be in the latter too?
19:06:22  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc approved pull request #8439: Feature: Make town bridge max length a function of its population https://git.io/JLA8l
19:08:22  <frosch123> TrueBrain: that would be very cheap :p
19:08:41  <frosch123> bridgespec thingie is a 16bit thing, so i think that >> 8 belongs to it
19:08:52  <frosch123> making it a 8-bit fixed point number
19:09:20  <frosch123> yeah, bridge_land.h has cost factors 80 to 510
19:09:24  <frosch123> so, around 256
19:09:29  <TrueBrain> what I mean to ask, and I am not sure you are answering that: should "bridge_len * _price[PR_CLEAR_BRIDGE]" not be "bridge_len * _price[PR_CLEAR_BRIDGE] * GetBridgeSpec(bridge_type)->price >> 8" ?
19:10:24  <frosch123> nah, bridges are expensive to build. destroying them is a fixed price
19:10:33  <frosch123> dynamite does not care what it destroys
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19:10:53  <TrueBrain> that argument became a bit weird with road/tram bridges
19:10:58  <TrueBrain> as it is now better to first remove the tram
19:11:01  <TrueBrain> than destroy the bridge
19:11:05  <TrueBrain> which is a bit odd
19:11:25  <TrueBrain> patching that is easy .. it now basically first strips the bridge, than destroys it :P
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19:12:24  <frosch123> maybe you could check whether stripping gives money
19:12:42  <TrueBrain> is that worth the effort?
19:12:49  <frosch123> so, you know whether everything is dynamited, or what is stolen in advance
19:13:06  <frosch123> cost things are never worth their effort :p
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19:13:11  <TrueBrain> rail bridges have the same issue btw :)
19:13:18  <TrueBrain> but you cannot remove rail from bridges before destroying it :P
19:13:27  <TrueBrain> which again is a bit weird :)
19:13:28  <frosch123> let's look up what convert rail says
19:13:35  <frosch123> iirc there was some essay comment in the code
19:15:29  <frosch123> RailConvertCost() has the essay, but not helpful here
19:16:18  <TrueBrain> converting only makes you pay the difference too, indeed, so it pays you back and it charges you again
19:19:52  <TrueBrain> funny, adding trams to an existing road bridge charges you extra for "destroying" the bridge first :D
19:22:25  <supermop_Home> would my thicker monorail station roofs be eligible to amend ogfx?
19:23:08  <andythenorth> Costs Rabbit Hole!
19:23:11  <andythenorth> where Cost Rabbits live!
19:24:58  <frosch123> supermop_Home: become ogfx maintainer, and you can decide yourself :p
19:26:31  <andythenorth> 'maintainers' :)
19:26:39  <andythenorth> a funny idea, on reflection
19:26:57  <frosch123> someone who decides on white and orange mouse cursors
19:27:15  <andythenorth> so far you only mention downsides :(
19:27:28  <andythenorth> this won't convince supermop_Home
19:27:36  <frosch123> you get a badge!
19:27:48  <Eddi|zuHause> you can put it in your resume when applying for a job
19:27:53  <andythenorth> now we're sucking diesel!
19:28:03  <andythenorth> how do I apply?
19:28:28  <andythenorth> oh are they storming Congress?
19:28:42  * andythenorth was watching live, then they closed the session
19:29:14  <frosch123> you first need to stop complaining about ogfx, and renounce using the original baseset
19:29:50  <andythenorth> or I could just do the first
19:29:54  <andythenorth> and not the second
19:29:57  <andythenorth> I think we agreed the first
19:31:51  <frosch123> looks like andy is already baseset maintainer
19:32:19  <andythenorth> somewhat :P
19:34:03  <andythenorth> I just fixed the warnings
19:34:09  <andythenorth> and added missing sprites
19:34:18  <andythenorth> I haven't made any sprite commits for years
19:34:41  <supermop_Home> commit my maglev station roof
19:35:46  <supermop_Home> Eddi|zuHause my last 2 years work is largely under nda so sprites are my closest thing to built work recently
19:48:32  <Heiki> online content seems broken
19:49:25  <TrueBrain> works for me; so you have to be a bit more specific if you can :D
19:49:53  <Heiki> start OpenTTD, press ”Check Online Content”, no contents appears
19:50:19  <Heiki> −s
19:50:30  <TrueBrain> I see no disruptions on our end .. do you have a firewall active that might be blocking it?
19:51:49  <Heiki> no, everything else (including multiplayer) works fine, and earlier today online content worked normally
19:51:58  <TrueBrain> anyone else having issues?
19:53:23  <frosch123> no issues here
19:53:32  * andythenorth looking for the default recolour sprite definitions
19:53:45  <Heiki> must be some strange local problem then
19:53:51  <TrueBrain> :(
19:53:52  <TrueBrain> sorry
19:54:01  <frosch123> andythenorth: still not bookmarked?
19:54:38  <andythenorth> oh maybe they're in a comment in my code
19:54:40  * andythenorth looks
19:55:23  <andythenorth> frosch123 this? https://github.com/frosch123/TTDViewer/blob/master/src/recolor.xml#L186
19:55:30  <Eddi|zuHause> content seems fine here
19:55:40  <frosch123> https://github.com/frosch123/TTDViewer/blob/master/src/recolor.xml  https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenGFX/blob/master/sprites/base/base-0775-recolor.pnml
19:56:01  <TrueBrain> Heiki: if multiplayer listing does work, it is especially odd
19:56:06  <TrueBrain> as they follow the same network path
19:56:17  <TrueBrain> (well, one is UDP, the other TCP, but that is the only difference, really)
19:56:51  <andythenorth> frosch123 thanks
19:56:54  <andythenorth> passed it on
19:57:00  * andythenorth human discord bridge
19:57:06  <Heiki> restarting the modem did the trick; no idea what was broken
19:57:43  <frosch123> someone should write a js script version of ttdviewer
19:57:55  <frosch123> so we can watch/zoom ttd sprites from the internet
19:57:59  <TrueBrain> Heiki: well, at least good to hear :)
19:58:01  <TrueBrain> frosch123: NOT IT
19:58:38  <frosch123> hmm, usually tb refers to everything as "he". does it refer to itself with "it"?
19:58:51  <TrueBrain> beep boop
19:59:31  <TrueBrain> right, bridges are a real rabbit hole ... let me just fix the issue, instead of the whole complete mess :D
19:59:40  <andythenorth> frosch123 can we get them out of the WASM build live? :P
19:59:45  * andythenorth not even trolling
19:59:56  <andythenorth> then I can make Train Whack for arbitrary grfs
20:00:42  <frosch123> no idea whether there is a java->wasm compiler
20:00:56  <frosch123> do you remember the java age?
20:01:59  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: if you do any industry stuff, they're usually like 20 years behind :p
20:02:46  <Eddi|zuHause> "what? templates? we just started with object oriented programming"
20:03:08  <andythenorth> I missed the java age
20:03:11  <frosch123> no, not 20, only 10
20:03:15  <andythenorth> it happened around me, not to me
20:03:46  *** Borg has quit IRC
20:04:09  <Eddi|zuHause> i learned some java in the first year of university. that was almost 20 years ago
20:05:10  <andythenorth> I was very fortunate, I spent the first 5 years of my job using Flash and similar
20:05:38  <andythenorth> and only started writing serious web apps just as java + oracle DB became a clear poor choice
20:05:41  <frosch123> ttdviewer is the only java thing i ever wrote outside of university exercises. i did not know anything else that could do cross-platform gui stuff at that time.
20:07:07  <andythenorth> extract sprites, dump them into some kind of browser plugin?
20:07:16  * andythenorth assumes that security says NOPE to that idea
20:07:18  * andythenorth hopes
20:09:26  <supermop_Home> well great
20:09:27  <frosch123> somewhen i tried to make ottd create screenshot using sprite references, so you could have an external viewer, and change the sprite offsets in it etc
20:09:58  <supermop_Home> check news when zoom call ends and there is an active armed standoff in the House
20:10:06  <supermop_Home> what a great country
20:10:24  <Eddi|zuHause> i heard you guys are on the brink of revolution?
20:11:22  <andythenorth> supermop_Home seems exciting at least?
20:15:24  <supermop_Home> Eddi|zuHause i think the term is Autogolpe
20:16:17  <Timberwolf> I've never had to live the horror of the servlet era. Done a bit of Spring Boot but that's more one of those things where it is to Java what JGRPP is to regular OpenTTD.
20:16:32  <Timberwolf> Did not escape ASP.net AJAX, though.
20:16:42  <Timberwolf> That was... interesting.
20:18:08  *** blathijs has quit IRC
20:18:38  <frosch123> supermop_Home: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-coup <- i had to look it up, but it's already listed
20:20:16  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_Home: i must admit, i've never heard that word before
20:22:42  <frosch123> apparently it's spanish
20:22:54  <supermop_Home> yep
20:22:55  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain opened pull request #8508: Fix #7656: destroying a tunnel/bridge now first removes the tracks for cost calculation https://git.io/JLARD
20:23:42  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain opened pull request #8509: Fix #8068: always allow removal of tram track if that generates money https://git.io/JLARS
20:24:24  <TrueBrain> that was ... interesting code
20:24:32  <TrueBrain> frosch123: I assume you noticed my updated gist for TownAIs? :D
20:24:48  <supermop_Home> i guess all the riot police and teargas they used on BLM protestors sitting in the street this past summer were not available to be used on people waving confederate flags and storming the capitol with guns....
20:25:04  <frosch123> TrueBrain: yeah, read it during dinner
20:25:18  <TrueBrain> you have strange dinners :P
20:25:29  <TrueBrain> would love to hear your input on it, of course :)
20:25:32  * andythenorth wondering what animation ticker ships might have https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1240156#p1240156
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20:26:14  <frosch123> TrueBrain: i have no opinion yet. but i remember that there are some gs and ai, which spend 5 game years after start to compute some voronoi decomposition of the map or other things, before they really start
20:26:33  <TrueBrain> frosch123: yup .. there is an open ticket to give them more time at startup :D
20:26:54  <frosch123> so, huge startup times. so even if the same gs can have individual vms for each town, they may have a shared startup thingie?
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20:28:04  <TrueBrain> that is honestly not a bad idea
20:28:42  <TrueBrain> this global state needs more thinking, but allowing to give a JSON blob to a controller on startup is not a bad idea
20:28:51  <TrueBrain> where the GS gets some time to prepare tha tJSON blob on start of game
20:29:58  <TrueBrain> I can imagine someone makes a "core" GS, which does make these kind of graphs at startup
20:30:02  <TrueBrain> and shares it with other GSes
20:31:22  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on pull request #8508: Fix #7656: destroying a tunnel/bridge now first removes the tracks for cost calculation https://git.io/JLAEO
20:33:01  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8508: Fix #7656: destroying a tunnel/bridge now first removes the tracks for cost calculation https://git.io/JLAEC
20:33:50  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #8508: Fix #7656: destroying a tunnel/bridge now first removes the tracks for cost calculation https://git.io/JLARD
20:35:42  <TrueBrain> "Republican congressman says China is "sitting back and laughing" at the US right now" <- only China? :D
20:36:43  <Eddi|zuHause> the russians surely got their money's worth when they bought that election 4 years ago
20:36:53  <milek7> I'm not sure if this is funny really
20:37:16  <TrueBrain> "je oogst wat je zaait", they say in Dutch
20:38:04  <frosch123> milek7: don't worry about things you cannot influence. rather worry about poland
20:38:31  <andythenorth> after 4 years of Brexit lolz, everything like this is funny
20:38:48  <frosch123> 4 years only? i thought it had been longer
20:39:39  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain merged pull request #8439: Feature: Make town bridge max length a function of its population https://git.io/JLMy3
20:40:01  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: yeah, american trump and british copycat-trump happened almost simultaneously
20:40:23  <TrueBrain> okay .. fixed 3 bugs today .. I feel good about that :D \o/
20:41:55  <TrueBrain> right ... on to "what to do with this PR" .. https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/7497 .. what do we think?
20:42:12  <TrueBrain> personally I fully understand why people want this, but it feels like the list will only grow over the next few months
20:42:19  <TrueBrain> I wonder if there isn't a better solution for this problem
20:42:22  <TrueBrain> Factorio has blueprints to solve it :D
20:43:00  <frosch123> i still don't know why there are special selections for "trees" and "company property"
20:43:08  <frosch123> but not for "water", "rivers", "canals"
20:43:14  <frosch123> "stations", ...
20:43:15  <TrueBrain> you proof my point, yes :)
20:43:39  <Eddi|zuHause> "tracks only"
20:43:46  <Eddi|zuHause> "roads only"
20:44:13  <andythenorth> our situation is quite different to USA really, but similar in the amount of lol
20:44:17  <TrueBrain> so do we deny the PR in full, do we start building this endless long list .. or do we have a better suggestion?
20:44:59  <Eddi|zuHause> on/off toggles and locks like the visibility/transparency settings?
20:45:03  <frosch123> i also have no idea why it's only in the landscaping toolbar, and not in the other construction toolbar
20:45:06  <supermop_Home> i am not finding today funny, nor have i found much of the past 4 (+) years funny
20:45:20  <frosch123> so many things, i do not know whether they are intentional or just wtf
20:45:24  <andythenorth> I don't understand PRs like that
20:45:31  <TrueBrain> frosch123: assume it is not intentional :)
20:45:34  <andythenorth> I'm not -1, I'm just lost
20:45:36  <TrueBrain> supermop_Home: sorry to hear :(
20:45:59  <TrueBrain> I understand the idea behind such PR, but it feels that it is not thought through sufficiently .. but I also don't have a solution myself :)
20:46:18  <andythenorth> it's not a viable solution as it stands
20:46:30  <andythenorth> maybe I talk to quick (again)
20:46:37  <frosch123> yep, the pr does not solve any problem in a convincing way
20:46:38  <andythenorth> 1st, what is the problem?
20:46:49  <frosch123> it just raises more questions
20:47:49  <andythenorth> why do we need to demolish only trees?
20:47:58  <frosch123> i already asked that :p
20:48:11  <frosch123> most likely it is so you can replant them
20:48:17  <andythenorth> I thought same
20:48:24  <andythenorth> this is caused by "we don't have sandbox mode"?
20:48:32  <frosch123> so, why not a "replant trees" button? :p
20:48:34  <andythenorth> which a possible solution for might be "Town GS"
20:48:48  <frosch123> i think i make a replant-trees-button for the next livestream
20:48:52  <andythenorth> yes
20:49:00  <andythenorth> and a special 'make town rating 100%' button
20:49:09  <andythenorth> but only accessible with the right key combo
20:49:12  <frosch123> no, rather a wrap-around
20:49:19  <andythenorth> ha
20:49:19  <frosch123> annoy them so much, that they love you again
20:49:29  <andythenorth> just take over the town hall
20:49:33  <andythenorth> if you don't like the result
20:49:41  <frosch123> probably by bulldozing your statue or something
20:49:56  <andythenorth> good mechanic
20:51:50  <andythenorth> what rationale is there for denying a feature like this?
20:52:15  <andythenorth> generally the UI has done ok with 'moar', excepting a few horrors
20:54:02  <supermop_Home> apparently national guard activated now
20:54:26  <supermop_Home> trump will finally get his tanks on the national mall he wanted
20:54:39  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #7497: Feature: Selective demolition tool. https://git.io/JLAui
20:54:39  <TrueBrain> I wrote words
20:54:42  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain closed pull request #7497: Feature: Selective demolition tool. https://git.io/fjq82
20:55:07  <TrueBrain> "Ivanka Trump calls rioters "patriots," then deletes tweet" <- sorry, but this just makes me laugh out loud
20:55:11  <TrueBrain> if not that emotion, what other is there
20:55:48  <supermop_Home> i don't expect any of them to face any real consequences
20:56:20  <andythenorth> supermop_Home not sure, senior republicans seem to have found a spine
20:56:22  <supermop_Home> but i would hope that at least the countries that have their shit more together would place some kind of sanctions on them
20:56:48  <andythenorth> when you have weapons drawn on the senate floor, it's not a game any more eh
20:57:14  <andythenorth> https://static.politico.com/dims4/default/6780612/2147483647/resize/1920x/quality/90/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fstatic.politico.com%2F47%2Fb8%2F13e0e1dc433dbb2c6ab592478d8a%2Fgettyimages-1294932511.JPG
20:57:28  <supermop_Home> andythenorth if these guys had more melanin there wouldn't be a standoff -
20:57:47  <andythenorth> no comment, not my country :P
20:57:55  <supermop_Home> but here the capitol police are just letting them sort of have their run
21:00:31  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_Home: just remember the situation a few months ago, where everyone was like "we need the national guard!"
21:01:26  * andythenorth fails to be surprised that one group think the rules are different for them
21:01:31  * andythenorth has met people before
21:01:33  <andythenorth> more than once
21:01:33  <supermop_Home> andythenorth just don't let this family get away with retiring to their golf course in Scotland
21:01:50  <andythenorth> supermop_Home Scotland...independent anyway by next year?
21:03:08  <frosch123> are there new odds on london becoming an independent city state?
21:03:31  <andythenorth> probably on a betting site somewhere
21:03:42  <andythenorth> anyway, shall I animate ship cranes when loading? https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1240156#p1240156
21:04:08  <andythenorth> I could probably do mod(load_amount / 8) or something
21:04:12  * andythenorth invents maths
21:04:13  <frosch123> if only ships were loaded from back to front :)
21:04:37  <frosch123> their position could show the loading percentage, and fill the ship up behind them
21:04:56  <andythenorth> maybe we need the JGR through-loading patch, for ships
21:05:30  <frosch123> ship-conveyor belt?
21:05:32  <supermop_Home> Eddi|zuHause i am not saying i want police brutality now... im saying "the response seems to be different when one group holds a sit-in on the street vs when another group literally commits terrorism"
21:05:44  <andythenorth> https://vimeo.com/227399983
21:06:21  <andythenorth> presumably they have to reposition that ship occasionally to distribute load
21:06:40  <supermop_Home> andythenorth its not just that one group thinks the rules don't apply to them, its that in practice, the rules actually are applied differently... different lines in the sand for different people
21:06:47  <andythenorth> supermop_Home don't want to state the obvious, but isn't that how power structures work?
21:06:50  <frosch123> i think i saw some crap-tier documentation about how difficult it is to load a big ship, so that it does not break apart during loading due to imbalanced loading
21:07:08  <andythenorth> I read a whole thing about loading ships yesterday
21:07:16  <andythenorth> ships are really quite interesting
21:07:28  * andythenorth audience of one for that
21:07:55  <andythenorth> there are basically two approaches to running ships (before container ships)
21:08:04  <andythenorth> a big empty box, 1-4 giant holds
21:08:35  <andythenorth> filled with one bulk cargo, or one cargo of the same break-bulk items
21:08:52  <supermop_Home> also videos of uniformed capitol police taking selfies with 'protestors' inside the capitol
21:08:53  <andythenorth> or a ship with lots of divided holds, some with specialised equipment
21:09:14  <andythenorth> the game simulates the first kind :D
21:10:47  <michi_cc> The real question is more like, whom is the national guard loyal to?
21:10:56  <andythenorth> valid Q
21:11:01  <TrueBrain> we are about to find out :D
21:11:48  <andythenorth> media is now labelling them rioters, not protesters
21:11:50  <andythenorth> seems reasonable
21:11:59  <michi_cc> TrueBrain: I really hope we don't find out. A second US civil war will not end good for anybody, including us.
21:12:22  <TrueBrain> little we can do about any of that from over here, sadly
21:12:30  <TrueBrain> so one way or the other, we will find out, don't we?
21:12:42  <TrueBrain> I just hope it is a result that doesn't end in WWIII
21:13:49  <andythenorth> more likely a secession
21:13:52  <Eddi|zuHause> from this point on, really ANYTHING can happen
21:15:27  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain opened pull request #8510: Fix #8168: allow relocating of HQ partial over existing HQ https://git.io/JLAz5
21:15:49  *** jottyfan has quit IRC
21:15:53  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on issue #8168: It takes two actions to move your company HQ by one tile. https://git.io/JfViG
21:16:05  <TrueBrain> these bugs are funny :)
21:17:12  <TrueBrain> will close 8 out of the 30 open 1.11 tickets, these 4 PRs :D w00p :)
21:17:12  <frosch123> you make it cheaper, do we care?
21:18:10  <andythenorth> 'no'
21:18:11  <TrueBrain> I do not :)
21:18:20  <andythenorth> we can outsource the caring
21:18:50  <andythenorth> having read ~1000 OpenTTD issues, I have seen that there are other people who will care for us
21:18:52  <andythenorth> we don't need to
21:18:53  <frosch123> you can also infinitely put it on the same location
21:19:11  <frosch123> so much bs cases :)
21:19:12  <andythenorth> there is a big correlation between 'people who care about costs' and 'people who will file detailed tickets'
21:19:12  <TrueBrain> frosch123: yup
21:19:25  <TrueBrain> I was like .. do I care enough if people do that ... do I want to solve that case ....
21:19:28  <TrueBrain> and I decided against it :)
21:19:36  <andythenorth> do any kittens die?
21:20:00  <TrueBrain> so I too clicked a lot of times my HQ on the same location
21:20:04  <TrueBrain> just because I fucking can now :D
21:20:34  <TrueBrain> too often I misplaced my HQ by 1, and had to move it away and back again, to place it AGAIN on the wrong location .. so yeah, I am pretty happy with this PR :P
21:20:49  <TrueBrain> if you want, btw, I will fix those edge-cases for you frosch123  :)
21:20:56  <TrueBrain> I just didn't care enough to do so :P More code .. :D
21:21:17  <frosch123> nah, i am way more scared about other things
21:21:28  <TrueBrain> like? :)
21:21:44  <TrueBrain> the thing we promised not to talk about? :D
21:21:51  <frosch123> overbuilding multi-tile objects was a huge problem, and noone believed at the time that it was fixed for good
21:22:09  <TrueBrain> was it?
21:22:51  <frosch123> lots of special code with ClearedObjectArea
21:22:56  <TrueBrain> well, HQ is an inverted example of it, I guess :)
21:23:33  <TrueBrain> I almost dismissed my own solution; it was only when I noticed that the clearing of the HQ is done in the same function I was like: this is fine :)
21:24:51  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not sure i understood any word of this https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1240143#p1240143
21:25:15  <andythenorth> me neither, is there a translate version?
21:25:17  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 approved pull request #8510: Fix #8168: allow relocating of HQ partial over existing HQ https://git.io/JLAgI
21:25:31  <TrueBrain> owh, the CI failed ... oops
21:25:45  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause also we agreed not to talk about NRT
21:25:48  <TrueBrain> the regression was testing if the HQ could be build on top of iteself
21:25:51  <TrueBrain> did not see thatone coming
21:25:55  <andythenorth> I nearly regret-quit (again) when I read that
21:26:36  <glx> oh you again forgot to check regression before push ;)
21:26:41  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on pull request #8510: Fix #8168: allow relocating of HQ partial over existing HQ https://git.io/JLAgs
21:26:42  <TrueBrain> SSSSTTTTT
21:26:49  <TrueBrain> damn you, you did this!
21:27:03  <glx> he's fast
21:27:16  <andythenorth> and accurate
21:27:19  <andythenorth> like a bot
21:27:26  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8510: Fix #8168: allow relocating of HQ partial over existing HQ https://git.io/JLAgC
21:27:57  <frosch123> did that guy run the regression themself? or are they replicating what gh checks already said?
21:28:16  <glx> he reads the checks
21:28:40  <glx> usually it's about commit checker
21:28:41  <TrueBrain> checks really improved btw, if you click Details, you see the regression failure
21:28:47  <TrueBrain> no longer it is hiding
21:30:41  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain dismissed a review for pull request #8510: Fix #8168: allow relocating of HQ partial over existing HQ https://git.io/JLAgI
21:30:44  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #8510: Fix #8168: allow relocating of HQ partial over existing HQ https://git.io/JLAz5
21:30:54  <TrueBrain> I did consider making DorpsGek announce when the CI was failing
21:30:58  <TrueBrain> but ... I voted against it :P
21:31:05  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/nml] glx22 updated pull request #181: Fix #180: No proper error message was given, if an unreferenced Strin… https://git.io/JLNwo
21:31:32  <glx> and I'll get a check failure notice for this push :)
21:31:45  <frosch123> oh, someone ran an inofficial highscore at my old company, about who breaks the ci how often
21:32:16  <TrueBrain> I am very known to have CI failures, also at old jobs :D
21:32:29  <TrueBrain> I really do not care .. it is the CIs job to tell me when I forgot something :)
21:32:37  <frosch123> unfortunately the ci usually broke due to os upgrades and environment changes, rather than commits
21:32:46  <TrueBrain> like the regression .. 9 out of 10 it doesn't need changing .. so why waste 9 times running it, if the 10th is told by the CI :)
21:33:11  <frosch123> TrueBrain: anyway, i am really curious how you came up with tile 239, 76
21:33:23  <TrueBrain> haha :D I looked up a random industry on the map
21:33:32  <TrueBrain> Industry 0
21:33:36  <TrueBrain> an Oil Refinery
21:34:20  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 approved pull request #8510: Fix #8168: allow relocating of HQ partial over existing HQ https://git.io/JLAgF
21:34:26  <TrueBrain> initially I just tried numbers
21:34:34  <TrueBrain> but that didn't go anywhere :P
21:34:52  <frosch123> i also like your typo "stop making me fail worse" :)
21:34:54  <TrueBrain> I am one of those lazy programmers ... least amount of effort .. :D
21:35:10  <TrueBrain> hahaha, oops
21:35:12  <TrueBrain> fixed :P
21:35:13  <TrueBrain> sorry :D
21:36:04  <frosch123> awh, it was so self-fulfilling
21:36:06  <TrueBrain> but yeah, CIs rule, and people should depend on them more :)
21:36:34  <frosch123> not every ci works as well as those you set up
21:36:52  <andythenorth> I love making the CI fail
21:37:00  <andythenorth> means manual QA people didn't have to find my mistakes
21:37:09  <TrueBrain> frosch123: it is a bit the reverse: I set them up well, as I depend on them :)
21:37:16  <glx> oh no regression failed for my nml PR (expected, not my fault)
21:37:21  <TrueBrain> many CIs I had to work with, were not so dependable .. so I made them more dependable :)
21:37:46  <supermop_Home> two bombs diffused at capitol
21:38:01  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain merged pull request #8510: Fix #8168: allow relocating of HQ partial over existing HQ https://git.io/JLAz5
21:38:04  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain closed issue #8168: It takes two actions to move your company HQ by one tile. https://git.io/JfViG
21:38:38  <TrueBrain> well, at least Trump can now claim he was ahead for a while
21:39:21  <TrueBrain> frosch123: the best CIs are those that need to flash hardware with your build and run tests ..... making those dependable is ............. difficult :D
21:40:34  <TrueBrain> what I also love doing, is move a bunch of test to weekly tests, those tests that should never fail, but are worth checking once in a while
21:40:45  <TrueBrain> that means that when you come in on Monday you have this nice email telling you you have work to do for the next 3 hours
21:40:50  <TrueBrain> just a good start of the week :)
21:41:19  <TrueBrain> (shit like dependency checks, outdated, CVEs, etc, or full-production tests, involving a full redeployment on AWS, stuff like that)
21:42:39  <frosch123> there is a weekly testsuite that starts saturday and runs till monday. most follow a policy to not commit on fridays, since you get lynched if you break the build or something that affects the whole testrun
21:43:09  <TrueBrain> no commit-friday .. that is a new one for me :)
21:43:15  <TrueBrain> no deploy-friday is pretty common :)
21:44:14  <andythenorth> our auto-deploy tool bans Fridays
21:45:16  <TrueBrain> owh, right, https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/8032 .. with the comments in between which I cannot process :D
21:45:57  <frosch123> there are a bunch of people on gh, which you should rather ignore
21:46:01  <glx> yeah there's some flood in the middle
21:46:14  <TrueBrain> my mental ignore works perfectly, most of the time :)
21:46:28  <TrueBrain> I still like that PR, but I guess we need to split off a few cases that depend on real-time
21:46:36  * andythenorth wonders about a block :P
21:46:38  <TrueBrain> so yet-another-timer :)
21:46:43  <andythenorth> "content has null value, takes space"
21:47:14  <andythenorth> "If the primary purpose of the function is to to...[theoretical discussion with no relevance to our codebase]"
21:47:44  <TrueBrain> I might give it a crack soon, to see if we can make that part of the code a bit more clear
21:47:55  <TrueBrain> owh, and andythenorth , in case you didn't notice, I was mentally ignoring your blabla over mentally ignoring people :D :P
21:48:05  <TrueBrain> <3
21:48:09  <frosch123> glx: why is 7904 a bug?
21:48:13  <andythenorth> pls send emoji more
21:48:31  <frosch123> is it just that people obsess about the name of the method?
21:48:59  <TrueBrain> 7904 is non-sense indeed; but what glx describes does read like a real bug :)
21:49:02  <frosch123> i think the point of the method is to update widgets, which take some time to update
21:49:13  <TrueBrain> https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/8032#issuecomment-606102685 <- that "bug" :)
21:49:14  <frosch123> so, imo using real-time is the right thing
21:49:19  <glx> the main issue is it can be called way too often
21:50:02  <frosch123> oh, i was thinking about fast-forward... but the bug is about slow-forward :)
21:50:15  <glx> if there's lag you get even more lag
21:50:45  <TrueBrain> except for 2 function, it appears nobody expect real-time, but all kinda assume game-time (the OnHundredthTick implementations)
21:51:53  <TrueBrain> so OnHunderdthTick (what a shitty word to write) and OnEveryThirdSecond I think is what we need :D
21:52:41  <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: try not to speak it :p
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21:52:56  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: FU! :P Now I tried ....
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21:53:49  <TrueBrain> https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/6780 it only recently got changed to real-time btw
21:54:25  <frosch123> funny, i would have expected _scroller_click_timeout to use a guitimer
21:54:34  <frosch123> does it scroll faster in fast-forward?
21:55:01  <TrueBrain> would you be surprised if it was? :D
21:57:07  <frosch123> it feels like scrolling slightly slower in fast-forward :p
21:57:50  <frosch123> also, make a guess: i used an empty 64x64 map to have really fast fast-forward. what do you think which window i used to get a long scrollbar? :p
21:58:22  <TrueBrain> NewGRFs!
21:58:30  <frosch123> close
21:58:31  <Eddi|zuHause> conttent?
21:58:39  <TrueBrain> content, lol, yes :D
21:58:39  <frosch123> content in-game?
21:58:56  <TrueBrain> content service button, yes :)
21:59:00  <frosch123> oh, indeed you can open content in-game....
21:59:01  <TrueBrain> that is most likely the longest list we have :P
21:59:08  <TrueBrain> it is laggy as fuck :D
21:59:10  <frosch123> but no, i used the settings gui with expand-all
21:59:16  <TrueBrain> haha, that works too :)
21:59:23  <glx> works too, and faster to fill
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22:01:23  <frosch123> glx: DecreaseWindowCounters is called via a guitimer, so your PR does not change anything
22:01:32  <frosch123> that's also why the scrollbar works :)
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22:03:20  <glx> anyway in most cases OnHundredthTick is intended to update display after some game state changes, and game state changes are tick based
22:03:47  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 commented on pull request #8032: Fix #7904: Don't use a timer for hundredth tick determination https://git.io/JLAaR
22:04:02  <glx> but in fast forward we get the issue again, as more ticks happen
22:04:03  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on issue #7904: OnHundredthTick() not called once per 100 ticks https://git.io/Jejmx
22:04:06  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain closed issue #7904: OnHundredthTick() not called once per 100 ticks https://git.io/Jejmx
22:04:34  <TrueBrain> frosch123: haha, nice catch :D
22:06:29  <TrueBrain> sorry glx, your PR can no longer fix that issue :D (sorry, I had to close it, I did not really read the content before :P)
22:06:38  <frosch123> hmm, while my observation is correct, my conclusion is not
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22:08:11  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 commented on pull request #8032: Fix #7904: Don't use a timer for hundredth tick determination https://git.io/JLAaX
22:08:27  <glx> I think it's not a complete fix, probably needs both GUITimer and tick counter, and refresh only for the case that is the longer delay
22:09:24  <frosch123> now i like the fix. in fast-forward the the guitimer of decreasewindowticks stops it from being called more often
22:09:47  <frosch123> and in slow-forward the _hundreth_tick_timout counter stops it from being called too often
22:09:55  <TrueBrain> win-win? :D
22:10:13  <TrueBrain> only means we have to fix the two exceptions, that really depend on real-time :P
22:10:28  <frosch123> i think there should be a comment about that in the code
22:11:07  <frosch123> call onhundrethtick at constant time when the game is fast, call it less often when it is slower than realtime
22:11:48  <TrueBrain> I guess a simple solution is to allow a Window callback which gets delta_ms
22:12:03  <TrueBrain> means a Window like chat can figure out itself when to do what after how much time
22:12:52  <glx> I should rebase first :)
22:13:06  <glx> then we can amend it
22:13:14  <frosch123> sounds complicated. we have event-based invalidation for important stuff, tick-based invalidation for cheap stuff, and onhundrethtick for expensive stuff without proper trigger
22:13:15  <TrueBrain> same as for the error dialog .. it now only works on N * 100 ticks timeouts now
22:13:50  <TrueBrain> frosch123: yeah, except that we have 2 cases that don't care about any of those 3 :)
22:13:55  <glx> D:\developpement\GitHub\glx22\OpenTTD [fix_7904 ↓1 ↑466]> <-- small rebase :)
22:14:02  <TrueBrain> time an error window stays open, and time a chat message is visible
22:14:15  <TrueBrain> someone just hooked that into OnHunderthTick, but that is kinda hackish :D
22:15:09  <TrueBrain> which is apparent in the error one, as there is another counter counting down for N "seconds" :D
22:17:08  <TrueBrain> owh, OnRealtimeTick already exists
22:17:18  <TrueBrain> so they are just hooked in the wrong one
22:18:22  <TrueBrain> ah, so that is how news messages always appear in normal speed :D
22:20:10  <glx> so we can just replace 'wrong' OnHundredth with OnRealtime
22:20:21  <TrueBrain> I think we can; but I am looking at frosch123  here
22:20:45  <TrueBrain> lol, errmsg_duration's tooltip says it is in seconds
22:20:53  <TrueBrain> but I think it is 3 times as long?
22:21:15  <frosch123> why looking at me? i want to go to sleep
22:21:26  <TrueBrain> haha, you just said it was a complicated idea :)
22:21:36  <TrueBrain> so I was more double-checking if I understand this wrong :)
22:22:20  <frosch123> double-checking to understand something wrong... you have weird goals :)
22:22:38  <TrueBrain> that I don't mind being wrong? I guess :)
22:23:14  <frosch123> OnRealtimeTick sounds right for errors and chat :)
22:23:27  <TrueBrain> k :)
22:23:28  <frosch123> forgot about that one, i think it's also "new"
22:23:40  <TrueBrain> I remember news going super fast in fast-forward :P
22:23:46  <TrueBrain> I hate it no longer does :D
22:24:10  <TrueBrain> okay, so errmsg_duration really doesn't do what the tooltip says :D Default is 15 seconds, not 5 :P
22:24:26  <TrueBrain> old games are fun .. so many weird errors :D
22:25:17  <glx> checking all OnHundredth now, and replacing where appropriate, I'll add a separate commit
22:25:33  <TrueBrain> its a gui-setting .. so can we change it to be more correct? Hmm ..
22:25:47  <TrueBrain> guess that means all existing games change from 15 to 5 seconds timeout?
22:26:08  <TrueBrain> we don't version the configuration file :P :P
22:27:09  <TrueBrain> renaming the setting is the obvious solution, I guess
22:27:23  <TrueBrain> owh well, I will leave glx to do his thing :D
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22:32:57  <TrueBrain> hmm, do we need to have the error message duration to be configurable? Lol .. maybe just remove that completely, honestly ...
22:45:08  <andythenorth> :)
22:45:54  <TrueBrain> when she's smiling (8(
22:46:56  <TrueBrain> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXYRkp2HZto to make clear what went on in my head
22:50:22  <andythenorth> I wants YT for the inside of my head
22:50:25  <andythenorth> pls explain me
22:50:27  <andythenorth> thx bai
22:50:31  <andythenorth> GG google
22:50:38  <TrueBrain> the youtube movie you requested is not available
22:50:39  <TrueBrain> :P
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22:52:38  * andythenorth should go to bed
22:52:43  <andythenorth> or I be sleeping on a sofa
22:52:56  <andythenorth> same again tomorrow then
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23:45:52  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #8509: Fix #8068: always allow removal of tram track if that generates money https://git.io/JLAry
23:45:56  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #8507: Fix #7604: prevent houses to wander too far from town center when rebuilding https://git.io/JLArS
23:50:59  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/nml] LordAro commented on pull request #182: Fix: regression failure with Pillow 8.1.0 https://git.io/JLArx
23:54:09  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 updated pull request #8032: Fix #7904: Don't use a timer for hundredth tick determination https://git.io/JvruE
23:56:54  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/nml] glx22 commented on pull request #182: Fix: regression failure with Pillow 8.1.0 https://git.io/JLAoq

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