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00:38:10 *** MinchinWeb_ has joined #openttd.dev 00:45:11 *** MinchinWeb has quit IRC 00:46:47 *** MinchinWeb_ has quit IRC 00:47:08 *** MinchinWeb_ has joined #openttd.dev 01:07:31 *** MinchinWeb_ has quit IRC 01:12:45 *** Zuu has quit IRC 04:15:15 *** MinchinWeb_ has joined #openttd.dev 04:34:33 *** Knogle has quit IRC 04:35:33 *** Knogle has joined #openttd.dev 05:34:26 *** MinchinWeb_ has quit IRC 07:29:12 *** Supercheese has quit IRC 07:34:49 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd.dev 07:34:49 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v andythenorth 09:15:42 *** Alberth has joined #openttd.dev 09:15:42 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v Alberth 09:33:37 *** Zuu has joined #openttd.dev 09:33:37 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v Zuu 09:59:00 *** LordAro has joined #openttd.dev 09:59:00 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v LordAro 10:58:52 *** frosch123 has joined #openttd.dev 10:58:52 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v frosch123 11:37:46 *** Eagle_Rainbow has joined #openttd.dev 11:37:46 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v Eagle_Rainbow 11:38:33 <Eagle_Rainbow> Hello everyone 11:41:52 <Eagle_Rainbow> frosch123, I think I got something done on the GUI arrangement / settings category thingy. 11:42:17 <Eagle_Rainbow> How do you like it to have a first look on it? 11:42:34 <frosch123> do you have some kind of diff? or something else? 11:42:38 <Eagle_Rainbow> should I create a new post in the forum, or reuse the existing one (which hasn't much to do it) 11:42:46 <Eagle_Rainbow> diff file 11:42:50 <frosch123> you can also use flyspray 11:43:06 <Eagle_Rainbow> Too many options :) 11:43:25 <Eagle_Rainbow> you prefer flyspray? 11:43:31 <frosch123> the question is, whether it is only a coding discussion, or whether you want to make the whole forum participate 11:44:01 <frosch123> but i would think that fs is enough 11:44:07 <Eagle_Rainbow> coding isn't that much the problem, I would say... it's more about the content (which setting goes to which category) 11:44:15 <Eagle_Rainbow> ok, then it's fs 11:44:20 <frosch123> classifying settings is not something i would trust the forums with :p 11:44:45 <frosch123> everyone would claim their favorite settings to be basic, while everything they don't know to be expert :p 11:45:08 <Eagle_Rainbow> and advanced would be empty then? :) 11:45:31 <planetmaker> :-) 11:45:47 <planetmaker> ask 2 people to get 3 opinion about the proper distinctions ;-) 11:45:54 <planetmaker> I can give you 3 alone, if you like :-P 11:45:58 <frosch123> with the help texts, someone gave it a start, and then everyone who liked gave counter proposals for some of the settings 11:46:10 <frosch123> then we discussed those with multiple proposals 11:46:31 <Eagle_Rainbow> well, if the discussion is being done in the Wiki automatically, I would find that productive... 11:46:52 <Eagle_Rainbow> (when the ottd developers having the final call) 11:47:07 <frosch123> i thought half of people cannot log in to the wiki :p 11:47:32 <Eagle_Rainbow> well, that's true belong to that half of the world :-| 11:53:16 <Eagle_Rainbow> Here's the FS entry: http://bugs.openttd.org/task/5355 11:55:05 <Eagle_Rainbow> and BTW I'd be glad if someone could have a look at the patch on swapping out the player's name edit box at http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=59329 as well... 11:56:23 * Eagle_Rainbow would like to go to the network filter list then thereafter, but the player's name edit box is prerequisite for that. 11:57:01 <Yexo> not sure how it works in git, but with hg you can create patch queues 11:57:10 <Yexo> ie you "commit" the patch you have and create another one on top of it 11:57:16 <Yexo> than you can show us two patches at ones 11:58:06 <Eagle_Rainbow> I already have multiple branches (one for the edit box, the other for the filter stuff), but I'd like to have the player's name first... 11:58:20 <Yexo> +cat = SC_EXPERT is not required for every item if you've already set it to be the default 11:58:32 <Eagle_Rainbow> ? 11:58:41 * Eagle_Rainbow is looking as well 11:58:56 <Eagle_Rainbow> ah... that you mean... 11:58:58 <Yexo> everything you put in [defaults] is copied to every item that doesn't have that as key 11:59:00 <frosch123> Yexo: but that makes it harder to review the categorisation 11:59:01 <Eagle_Rainbow> yes, I know... 11:59:18 <Eagle_Rainbow> exactly, the idea was to document that I have made a call on that setting 11:59:28 <Yexo> ok, that's fien 11:59:46 <frosch123> though it is actually harder to see it from the diff than i hoped 11:59:55 <Yexo> it's still too hard to review like this, since often the comapny name is not in the same chunk as the category 12:00:15 <Eagle_Rainbow> well, I already expanded it to -U5 lines on diff to make it easier 12:00:17 <frosch123> it was so easy with the help texts :) so i thought that would work here as well :( 12:00:39 <Eagle_Rainbow> I can increase the context lines even further, if that helps... 12:00:44 <Yexo> yes, it would 12:01:10 * Eagle_Rainbow is working on it 12:02:16 <Eagle_Rainbow> here we go, FS entry is updated 12:02:36 <Yexo> screenshot_format / savegame_format: why the inconsistency? Either both should be advanced or both expert, imo the latter 12:03:13 <Eagle_Rainbow> That's why I called it "first shot" :) Working alone on such a thing, you'll never notice those things... 12:03:16 * Eagle_Rainbow will update it 12:03:42 <Yexo> invisibility_options / transparency_options: while neither of them are in the advanced settings gui, same as above. I think both should be basic 12:03:56 <Yexo> keyboard/keyboard_case should be expert 12:05:21 <Yexo> construction.command_pause_level could be expert I think 12:05:35 <Yexo> autoslope also 12:05:51 <frosch123> i would put "pause level" in advanced 12:06:07 <frosch123> it seems quite commonly used/asked for 12:06:19 <Yexo> ok, I wasn't so sure about that one 12:06:19 <Eagle_Rainbow> done all requests locally here... 12:06:46 <Yexo> train/roadveh _slope_steepness / acceleration model? 12:06:56 <planetmaker> autoslope do we need that at all? 12:06:57 <Yexo> currently on advanced, I think I'd put them on expert 12:07:19 <frosch123> steepness might expert 12:07:26 <frosch123> model sounds like advanced to me 12:07:35 <Eagle_Rainbow> Why this "inconsitency"? :) 12:07:45 <frosch123> :p 12:07:51 <Yexo> they have a different meaning 12:08:03 <Yexo> lot's of people switch from original to the "realistic" model 12:08:14 <Yexo> but not as many people understand what the slope steepness does 12:08:27 <Yexo> forbid_90_deg? 12:08:42 <planetmaker> expert 12:08:59 <Yexo> the default is false 12:10:11 <Eagle_Rainbow> train/roadveh _slope_steepness is now to expert and acceleration model is now with advanced 12:10:47 <Yexo> order.serviceathelipad? Does anyone change that? could be at expert imo 12:11:04 <Yexo> order.gradual_loading too perhaps 12:11:05 <frosch123> what's the default? 12:11:13 <Yexo> true and true 12:11:14 <frosch123> gradual loading is expert, definitely 12:12:08 <Eagle_Rainbow> what about the helipad? 12:12:28 * Eagle_Rainbow is up to date with all other changes locally (not commited yet) 12:13:51 <frosch123> expert likely 12:14:02 <Eagle_Rainbow> switched to expert then 12:14:09 <Yexo> snow_line_height could be basic 12:14:20 <Eagle_Rainbow> done 12:14:28 <frosch123> it's in a different window anyway :p 12:14:45 <Yexo> yes, but if we're going to category all then let's do it properly 12:15:03 <Yexo> economy.allow_shares to advanced instead of basic? 12:15:42 <Eagle_Rainbow> well, my thought on basic always was: could a new player who doesn't know much about the game, understand what this means? 12:15:53 <planetmaker> depends on the default, Yexo ;-) 12:16:04 <Yexo> default is false, which is imo ok 12:16:10 <planetmaker> then advanced 12:16:24 <Eagle_Rainbow> allow_shares => advanced 12:16:42 <Yexo> Eagle_Rainbow: "buying shares" is not obvious to new players, there are limitations in multiplayer and others too, like that you can only buy shares after the company has existed for 6 years 12:17:03 <Eagle_Rainbow> that's a reason then... 12:17:08 <Yexo> so while my thought is the same as yours, I figured this one is not as obvious for new players 12:18:23 <Yexo> unrelated to this patch: should the advanced settings window remember the filter which was used last time it opened? 12:18:37 <Yexo> so that if you swtich to expert, open it again it opens on expert? 12:19:06 <Yexo> actually two questions: should it remember it while the game is running (imo yes) and should it remember it between games, so in the config file (imo not necessary) 12:20:16 <Eagle_Rainbow> imo: game running, yes -- config file, no 12:21:27 <frosch123> what should it remember? 12:21:34 <frosch123> only basic/adv/expert? or also deviations? 12:21:41 <Yexo> only basic/adv/expert 12:22:01 <frosch123> so, the last used one of those 12:22:10 <frosch123> game starts with "basic"? 12:22:11 <Eagle_Rainbow> but that sounds a bit strange, isn't it? 12:22:20 <Yexo> switch to advanced -> switch to deviation -> close window -> open window -> open on advanced 12:23:53 <Eagle_Rainbow> so only storing the SettingCategory and not the DDB state... 12:25:06 <frosch123> i prefer consistency here. in the other windows we do not save filters either 12:25:26 <Eagle_Rainbow> and what's the default then, when you open the window initially? 12:25:31 <frosch123> (string filters and such) 12:25:55 <frosch123> the default is definitely "basic" 12:26:07 <frosch123> if that is unusable, it needs to go to the config 12:26:23 <frosch123> but novice players need to get "basic", else there is no point in that category :p 12:27:00 <Eagle_Rainbow> don't you fear that advanced players will start cursing if they always have to switch it? 12:27:18 <frosch123> config file also sounds fine to me 12:27:40 <frosch123> but "deviations" is more on a level like "string filters" 12:28:29 <Eagle_Rainbow> If that is something different, shouldn't we also not provide two distinct DDBs? 12:28:47 <frosch123> no, noone wants to see deviations of only basic settings :p 12:28:57 <Eagle_Rainbow> I could think of them being orthogonal on each other... 12:29:14 <frosch123> however, if a players wants to compare settings, it might also make sense to save the deviation filters 12:29:43 <Eagle_Rainbow> so, it would be config with the last state of the DDB (incl. deviations) 12:30:44 <Eagle_Rainbow> BTW: Any further requests on different categories for settings? 12:30:49 <Yexo> comparing with the defaults is something you do "once", not multiple times soon after eachother 12:31:01 <Yexo> the level of settings you want to see if much more static 12:31:26 <Yexo> on the other hand: this means that you only have to change it back once if it remembers the deviations too 12:31:55 <Yexo> Eagle_Rainbow: I'd like to see a diff with U8 / U10 so I can see all settings 12:31:55 <Eagle_Rainbow> Which I think it's ok, because I have left the screen with that state I know... 12:32:00 <frosch123> both has usecases :p you might also want to look at multiple saves to compare the settings 12:32:07 <Eagle_Rainbow> Yexo: It's already U10 :) 12:32:10 <frosch123> imo the only reasoning here is consistency 12:32:24 <frosch123> and remembering all dropdown states might be more intuitive 12:32:25 <Eagle_Rainbow> How much do you want? :p 12:32:31 <Yexo> Eagle_Rainbow: I didn't see the second patch yet 12:32:44 <Yexo> in that case could you upload a enw one with the already done changes in it? 12:32:54 <Yexo> frosch123: yes, that's fine with me 12:32:54 <Eagle_Rainbow> gimme a minute 12:33:55 <Eagle_Rainbow> Third version is uploaded... 12:34:22 <Eagle_Rainbow> on DDB persistency, it's config with all states now, right? 12:35:24 <Yexo> yes 12:42:41 <Eagle_Rainbow> As I have to leave now for a couple of hours, please feel free to add further change requests on categorization here -- I will have a look into the logs once I am back. 12:43:11 <frosch123> bye, have fun :) 12:43:12 <Eagle_Rainbow> Concerning remembering the state of the DDB in the adv. setting screen, I would have a look there, too, which I would try to squeeze into a distinct patch... 12:45:49 *** Eagle_Rainbow has quit IRC 13:19:25 <Zuu> planetmaker: I thought that the forbid_90_deg setting is something the average forum user is aware of and usually want to have on. Thus should go into advanced rather than expert? 13:21:01 <Zuu> The motivation to push it to expert could be that users not aware of it will run into problems if they accidently turn it on. 13:24:04 <planetmaker> Zuu, I still argue for "forbid 90° = true" as default. And then expert. But yes, it's still "false" iirc, thus advanced makes sense 15:06:27 *** MinchinWeb_ has joined #openttd.dev 16:29:29 *** Zuu has quit IRC 16:34:40 *** Knogle has quit IRC 16:35:38 *** Knogle has joined #openttd.dev 16:41:02 *** fonsinchen has joined #openttd.dev 16:41:02 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v fonsinchen 17:22:48 *** fonsinchen has quit IRC 17:22:52 *** fonsinchen has joined #openttd.dev 17:22:52 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v fonsinchen 17:34:44 *** fonsinchen has quit IRC 18:22:29 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 18:45:20 *** DorpsGek changes topic to "OpenTTD Dev Channel || Latest SVN: r24662 || Logs: http://webster.openttdcoop.org/?channel=openttd.dev || Voice (talk-right) upon request via #openttd; make sure you are registered to NickServ before asking" 19:03:10 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd.dev 19:03:11 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v andythenorth 19:12:23 *** Alberth has left #openttd.dev 19:23:34 *** Eagle_Rainbow has joined #openttd.dev 19:23:34 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v Eagle_Rainbow 19:24:15 <Eagle_Rainbow> Rehi, what's the trick, which I don't know, allowing to remove your name of "Assigned to" in FS? 19:36:47 <Yexo> you don't have the rights to do that 19:39:59 <Eagle_Rainbow> ok, that's at least an answer - I had assigned FS#5356 to myself, as I wanted to work on the patch there and took it to my name; now the patch is there, but I can put it back to you all, for processing it .-| 19:41:02 <Eagle_Rainbow> BTW: I just got the problems again with GIT not being updated - I couldn't see r24662. However, I found out that I was using http://git... instead of git://git.... With the latter, the revision was there 19:42:40 <Yexo> probably some caching somewhere, hard to tell 19:43:08 <Yexo> wrt assigning FS tasks: we hardly use that, it doesn't really matter if it's still assigned to you or not 19:45:18 <Eagle_Rainbow> ok, you can't change the type and other things in FS, if it's not assigned to yourself 19:49:11 <Yexo> again: hardly used 19:49:43 <Eagle_Rainbow> got it... 19:53:26 *** Supercheese has joined #openttd.dev 20:06:58 *** Zuu has joined #openttd.dev 20:06:58 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v Zuu 20:10:17 <frosch123> sadly there is no "remove assignment" role, there are only way more powerful options 20:11:05 <Eagle_Rainbow> it's ok :) I can live with it having the stuff on my name... I was only worried having it on my name, and other's might think that I still have to do something. 20:11:19 <Eagle_Rainbow> But that was clarified by Yexo already... 20:13:29 <michi_cc> Yeah, it seems there is only a "Edit assignments" permissions, and that would be a bit too broad ;) 20:15:36 <michi_cc> Eagle_Rainbow: I added you to the "Regular patchers" usergroup earlier BTW, in theory you should be able to edit tasks you created (even if you are not assigned to it). 20:17:31 <Eagle_Rainbow> michi_cc: thanks; I will check and provide feedback 20:18:30 <michi_cc> I could remove you from the assigment list if you want, but yeah, nobody cares about that anyway :) 20:18:59 <Eagle_Rainbow> do, if you like; from where I come from, they really really care hard on the name ;) 20:19:15 <Eagle_Rainbow> so, I might be a bit biased here ;) 20:22:14 <Eagle_Rainbow> michi_cc: nope, doesn't work: 5356 is no longer assigned to my name. Still I can't edit the task - only the comments which I made... 20:22:59 <michi_cc> If there are a lot more active developers/commiters it might become necessary, but OTTD is small enough that it would be just needless bureaucracy. We don't care about votes either, BTW :) 20:23:28 <Eagle_Rainbow> which might draw the flame wars on you :p 20:24:08 <michi_cc> Too bad :( Looks like "Modify own tasks" really only applies to assigned tasks then. 20:24:59 <Eagle_Rainbow> now, you know that :) -- for me it's ok... 21:08:24 *** andythenorth is now known as Guest4503 21:08:26 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd.dev 21:08:26 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v andythenorth 21:15:15 *** Guest4503 has quit IRC 21:46:56 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 22:20:38 *** Zuu has quit IRC 22:28:57 *** Eagle_Rainbow has quit IRC 23:08:02 *** LordAro has quit IRC