Log for #openttdcoop on 3rd June 2009:
Times are UTC Toggle Colours
00:00:31  <PublicServer> *** Game unpaused (enough players)
00:00:44  <PublicServer> *** Plimmer has left the game (connection lost)
00:00:44  <PublicServer> *** Game paused (not enough players)
00:00:54  <Plimmer> !password
00:00:54  <PublicServer> Plimmer: teamed
00:01:13  <PublicServer> *** Plimmer joined the game
00:01:44  <De_Ghosty> lol
00:01:51  <PublicServer> <ZarenorDarkstalker> Yay! I can test my balancer! :P
00:01:54  <PublicServer> <Plimmer> Heya
00:01:56  <De_Ghosty> i have turned SmatZ gay :D
00:02:29  <SmatZ> not so fast sweetie <3
00:02:57  *** tmunkj has quit IRC
00:09:52  <PublicServer> <ZarenorDarkstalker> Plimmer, could you switch over to the company so i can check this balancer?
00:13:33  <PublicServer> <ZarenorDarkstalker> SmatZ, could you join so I can check this balancer? I'd like to know whether it works so I can plan to replace it if I need to
00:14:47  <PublicServer> *** Game unpaused (enough players)
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00:15:28  <PublicServer> <SmatZ> I am here
00:15:48  <PublicServer> <ZarenorDarkstalker> thanks, one sec
00:16:38  <PublicServer> <ZarenorDarkstalker> hm
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00:18:58  <PublicServer> <ZarenorDarkstalker> okay, cool, it seems to go pretty well
00:19:25  <PublicServer> <ZarenorDarkstalker> not perfectly with 3 depots at the end, but it seems it shoudl average out nicely
00:19:34  <PublicServer> <ZarenorDarkstalker> Thanks SmatZ
00:20:02  <PublicServer> <SmatZ> you are welcome :)
00:20:26  <PublicServer> <SmatZ> it seems there are signal gaps though
00:20:39  <PublicServer> <ZarenorDarkstalker> in a couple of places they are intentional
00:20:40  <PublicServer> <SmatZ> what's TL?
00:20:46  <PublicServer> <ZarenorDarkstalker> but show them to me, i may have ,missed some
00:20:47  <PublicServer> <ZarenorDarkstalker> 5
00:20:59  <PublicServer> <SmatZ> can it block at !block?
00:21:08  <PublicServer> <ZarenorDarkstalker> ah..
00:21:28  <PublicServer> <ZarenorDarkstalker> only if there is very heavy traffic up th line and then i should.. let me see
00:21:45  <PublicServer> <ZarenorDarkstalker> okay
00:21:56  <PublicServer> <ZarenorDarkstalker> now that shouldn't block
00:22:09  <PublicServer> <ZarenorDarkstalker> it should be bypassable
00:22:14  <PublicServer> <ZarenorDarkstalker> or maybe...
00:25:48  <PublicServer> <ZarenorDarkstalker> Now I'd like to see anything normal TRY to block that
00:26:56  <PublicServer> <SmatZ> I think there are too long signal gaps, but the traffic will show if it works :)
00:27:47  <PublicServer> <ZarenorDarkstalker> I may adjust them some
00:28:05  <PublicServer> <ZarenorDarkstalker> the goal is to keep te traffic moving, and blending well
00:28:10  <PublicServer> <ZarenorDarkstalker> and mostly evenly
00:28:25  <PublicServer> <ZarenorDarkstalker> With next-to-zero chance for blockage
00:28:42  <PublicServer> <ZarenorDarkstalker> Keep in mind that the PBS will compensate for some of the gaps
00:32:04  <PublicServer> <SmatZ> if you say so :)
00:32:31  <PublicServer> *** SmatZ has left the game (connection lost)
00:32:32  <PublicServer> *** Game paused (not enough players)
00:32:41  <SmatZ> bah crash :)
00:32:49  <PublicServer> <ZarenorDarkstalker> lol
00:32:54  <PublicServer> <ZarenorDarkstalker> the news crash again?
00:33:00  <SmatZ> yeah :)
00:33:08  <SmatZ> the server wasn't updated for this game :-/
00:34:02  <PublicServer> <ZarenorDarkstalker> i noticed.. kinda wondered about that
00:40:39  <PublicServer> *** Game unpaused (enough players)
00:40:54  <PublicServer> *** SmatZ joined the game
00:41:12  <PublicServer> <ZarenorDarkstalker> WB SmatZ
00:41:27  <PublicServer> <ZarenorDarkstalker> any thoughts on the map so far?
00:41:51  * SmatZ patched his build with r16406, r16414 and r16416 ;)
00:41:56  <PublicServer> <SmatZ> nope...
00:42:39  <PublicServer> <ZarenorDarkstalker> it let you connect with the more recent ver?
00:42:47  <PublicServer> <ZarenorDarkstalker> por you're running lin
00:42:48  <PublicServer> <ZarenorDarkstalker> ?
00:42:52  <PublicServer> <ZarenorDarkstalker> *or
00:42:59  <SmatZ> compiling myself
00:44:30  <PublicServer> <SmatZ> good night :)
00:45:03  <Zarenor> Night SmatZ
00:45:30  <PublicServer> *** SmatZ has left the game (leaving)
00:45:31  <PublicServer> *** SmatZ has left the game (connection lost)
00:45:31  <PublicServer> *** Game paused (not enough players)
00:45:34  <SmatZ> night Zarenor :)
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01:08:55  <Zarenor> Heyas Kenjie
01:14:42  <KenjiE20|LT> yo
01:15:20  <PublicServer> <ZarenorDarkstalker> what're you up to?
01:16:23  <KenjiE20|LT> spodding about looking for summat to watch while waiting for get tired
01:16:39  <Zarenor> lol...
01:16:41  <KenjiE20|LT> if theres nothing on iPlayer then I'll randomly pick a film
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01:48:55  <Plimmer> Very basic question, but how do I make a good exit from 8 lanes into two lanes?
01:49:05  <Plimmer> exit from a ro-ro station
01:49:20  <Zarenor> merge to 4 first and mix
01:49:26  <Zarenor> and then downmix to 2
01:49:30  <Zarenor> would be what I'd do
01:50:24  <Plimmer> Dosent that give me a problem if I dont care which of the 2 lanes the trains exit to?
01:51:17  <PublicServer> <ZarenorDarkstalker> if you don't care?
01:51:21  <Plimmer> Or rather I want them to exit via the two lanes.
01:51:23  <PublicServer> <ZarenorDarkstalker> then you want to mix them
01:51:41  <PublicServer> <ZarenorDarkstalker> if you do cae which goes where, make sure they get that way and mix them
01:51:43  <mensi> !password
01:51:43  <PublicServer> mensi: jerked
01:51:48  <PublicServer> *** Game unpaused (enough players)
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01:52:04  <PublicServer> <ZarenorDarkstalker> Sup mensi?
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03:48:47  <Zarenor> mor blinkage?
03:48:49  <Zarenor> mt
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09:33:12  <XeryusTC> !password
09:33:12  <PublicServer> XeryusTC: sorely
09:33:22  <PublicServer> *** XeryusTC joined the game
09:33:29  <PublicServer> <XeryusTC> ack toyland maglev :s
09:34:09  <PublicServer> *** XeryusTC has left the game (connection lost)
09:38:52  <Mark> morning
09:40:23  <Mark> !password
09:40:23  <PublicServer> Mark: peeped
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09:56:12  <Kangoo_> !password
09:56:13  <PublicServer> Kangoo_: nudest
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11:06:52  <Godde> !password
11:06:52  <PublicServer> Godde: auburn
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11:45:46  <Xaroth> !password
11:45:46  <PublicServer> Xaroth: scolds
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13:32:58  <georg> !password
13:32:58  <PublicServer> georg: clacks
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13:36:37  <Godde> !cl 8
13:36:41  <Godde> !players
13:36:43  <PublicServer> Godde: Client 1135 is georg, a spectator
13:36:43  <PublicServer> Godde: Client 1137 (Orange) is elmz, in company 1 (OTTDC)
13:36:48  <Godde> anyone here?
13:36:55  <PublicServer> <elmz> yep
13:37:14  <Godde> is there a command like !tunnels for curvelength
13:37:15  <Godde> ?
13:37:23  <KenjiE20> yep
13:37:27  <KenjiE20> @clcalc
13:37:28  <Webster> <train/mono/mag>cl <speed km/h> returns minimum CL for full speed transit (assuming TL > CL returned else use TL) (e.g. 'traincl 110' returns '2') -- <train/mono/mag>clspd <CL> returns the maxspeed a CL can manage (e.g. trainclspd '2' returns '110km/h or 68.75mph')
13:38:12  <Godde> traincl 305
13:38:16  <Godde> !traincl 305
13:38:25  <Godde> !1cl 305
13:38:32  <Godde> ?
13:38:38  <KenjiE20> its @ same way I called the help
13:38:42  <Godde> ah
13:38:47  <Godde> @traincl 305
13:38:47  <Webster> CL 13-8.60232526704i required for rail at speed 305km/h (or TL if it's shorter)
13:38:54  <Godde> cool
13:39:01  <KenjiE20> so 13
13:39:02  <Godde> @monocl 305
13:39:02  <Webster> CL 7.74008872065 required for monorail at speed 305km/h (or TL if it's shorter)
13:39:38  <PublicServer> *** georg has left the game (leaving)
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13:47:47  <KenjiE20> @traincl 305
13:47:47  <Webster> CL 13 required for rail at speed 305km/h (or TL if it's shorter)
13:47:51  <KenjiE20> much nicer
13:49:26  <PublicServer> <elmz> *very alone and paused in here* ^^
13:51:24  * DASPRiD pokes planetmaker 
13:57:48  <planetmaker> outch
13:58:16  <planetmaker> ca va, DASPRiD ?
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14:02:00  <theholyduck> !password
14:02:00  <PublicServer> theholyduck: hummed
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14:54:53  <theholyduck> The requested URL /files/publicserver_archive/PublicServerGame_143_Final.sav was not found on this server.
14:54:57  <theholyduck> somebody who HAVE the save?
14:54:57  <theholyduck> :P
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14:57:03  <PublicServer> *** Game paused (not enough players)
14:57:13  <PublicServer> <elmz> noooo
14:57:39  <PublicServer> *** Game unpaused (enough players)
14:57:42  <theholyduck> !password
14:57:42  <PublicServer> theholyduck: pokier
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14:58:01  <PublicServer> <theholyduck> enjoy
14:58:27  <PublicServer> <elmz> :)
14:58:32  <PublicServer> <elmz> takk ^^
15:08:38  <PenKnight> !password
15:08:38  <PublicServer> PenKnight: pokier
15:08:54  <PublicServer> *** PenKnight joined the game
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15:13:28  <narc> Guten tag, everyone.
15:13:46  <PublicServer> <elmz> guten tag ^^
15:14:55  <narc> Hey, I need a quick decision: is it more interesting to have a human mind in a ship's computer learning to interact with humans again, or would it be better to have an AI initially designed as a ship's computer exceeding its limitations and learning to be human?
15:15:33  <narc> I have these two stories in my head, both with approximately the same other details, and I need to pick one over the other.
15:16:20  <PenKnight> I like the first one
15:17:10  <narc> If I go with the human mind, I do get to tell the story of human learning to be a computer.
15:17:26  <narc> Tell the story in the form of memories, of course.
15:17:38  <Ammler> sali narc!
15:17:43  <narc> On the other hand, an AI learning to be human is an exercise in novelty.
15:17:51  <narc> Oye, Ammler!
15:17:57  <narc> Como estas?
15:18:02  <PublicServer> *** elmz has left the game (connection lost)
15:18:09  <Ammler> tres bien, et tu?
15:18:19  <narc> Je suis very good :)
15:18:40  <elmz> !password
15:18:40  <PublicServer> elmz: breads
15:18:49  <narc> I have experienced flight. Twice! :)
15:19:14  <Mark> wb narc
15:19:27  <narc> Thank you, Mark, it's good to be back :)
15:19:59  <elmz> I find the human one more original, an AI learning to be human sounds a bit "straight forward" :)
15:20:18  <Mark> agreed
15:20:25  <planetmaker> narc! :)
15:20:28  <narc> Hm, a fair point.
15:20:36  <narc> Hi, pm!
15:21:15  <narc> But I don't think either of them are particularly original. I'm pretty sure I've read both types of stories before, just probably not told through the prism of ship's sensors and spaceflight.
15:21:15  <planetmaker> Concerning your stories: the human connected to the ship is the more interesting one IMO - it's a less used theme
15:21:16  <elmz> the AI variant sounds like every other story about an AI becoming self aware
15:21:37  <narc> 'Strue, AIs have been done a lot more.
15:21:46  <planetmaker> And it opens up the interesting perspective of cyborgs.
15:22:03  <elmz> yeah, one hell of a cuborg ^^
15:22:04  <narc> Hrm, in the same universe, yes. Not in this story.
15:22:15  <planetmaker> considering BSG, the human cylons are nearly that... :)
15:22:20  <narc> It's a bit past the point of cyborg, this one.
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15:22:39  <elmz> well, if the ships comuter is a human brain it would technically be a cyborg ^^
15:22:42  <planetmaker> past the point? A cyborg - in my definition - is a human enhanced with machinery.
15:22:51  <planetmaker> and the human essence is the brain.
15:22:56  <narc> Not really any human bits left in this one, not even the brain.
15:22:57  <PublicServer> *** elmz has left the game (connection lost)
15:23:09  <elmz> !password
15:23:10  <PublicServer> elmz: breads
15:23:14  <narc> We're talking consciousness transfer, or a simulated brain inside a computer.
15:23:16  <narc> Something like that.
15:23:26  <narc> There's no biological part of this human left.
15:23:39  <planetmaker> oh, ok.
15:23:45  <narc> It had to fly at sub-light speeds to a nearby star and investigate it.
15:24:04  <narc> Then return 5k years later to find a very different solar system than it left behind.
15:24:06  <planetmaker> then I wouldn't call it human mind, though.
15:24:14  <narc> It was initially human, which is the point.
15:24:35  <planetmaker> what can transform something from brain to machine?
15:24:36  <narc> And it retains many (most? all?) of its memories of having been human.
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15:25:06  <narc> Consciousness transfer? An (extremely) thorough brain scan at point of death, leading to the brain being simulated in a computer.
15:25:25  <planetmaker> proven to be impossible :P
15:25:28  <narc> That's my thinking, though I'm loath to go too deeply into details. I want sci-fi, not fantasy.
15:25:38  <narc> Bah, impossible. I'm just bending the rules a bit.
15:25:46  <narc> FTL travel's impossible, too.
15:25:46  <planetmaker> yes, but conciousness transfer is fantasy, not scifi :)
15:26:11  <planetmaker> is it?
15:26:14  <narc> I wouldn't bet on it.
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15:26:42  <narc> It all depends on how "hard" the rules are. If you bend them just a little bit, and remain sufficiently cryptic about details, you can convince a reader.
15:26:52  <narc> If they're willing to be convinced, anyway.
15:28:00  <elmz> bah, the game dl stops at 72.5 / 492 kb :(
15:28:29  <PublicServer> *** elmz has left the game (connection lost)
15:28:49  <elmz> !password
15:28:49  <PublicServer> elmz: titter
15:30:17  <elmz> I tried to save a sparrow chick today :/
15:30:28  <elmz> I failed :(
15:30:56  <XeryusTC> usually it is better to save human chicks ;)
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15:32:05  <elmz> well, if I found a dirty human chick on a side walk I most certainly wouldn't have taken her home :P
15:32:23  <narc> It would depend on how dirty, now wouldn't it?
15:33:00  <XeryusTC> wll, i kind of like dirty :P
15:33:01  <elmz> not that kind of dirty :P
15:33:25  <planetmaker> narc, I prefer SF which doesn't make too many assumptions which violate basic phyical laws :)
15:33:31  <planetmaker> *physical
15:33:44  <planetmaker> and quantum mechanics is quite fundamental...
15:33:53  <narc> Hrm, I didn't say a quantum-level analysis.
15:33:56  <narc> Just neuron-level.
15:34:25  <narc> If you can simulate the neurons and the many brain chemicals, you can simulate a brain.
15:34:26  <planetmaker> well. But I guess you'll need that :) in order to obtain the memory.
15:35:07  <narc> Is the human brain a quantum computer? At least, does it store memory at the quantum level?
15:35:16  <Razaekel> nobody knows
15:35:24  <narc> Indeed, which is why I can play with it.
15:35:33  <narc> :)
15:35:36  <Razaekel> there was a book that assumed it was
15:35:41  <Razaekel> dont remember the name, tho
15:35:51  <narc> If it is, there's no way to clone a brain the way I described it.
15:36:06  <narc> So I'm going to have to assume it isn't.
15:36:13  <narc> At least for this story.
15:36:17  <Razaekel> why wouldnt there be a way to clone it?
15:36:31  <narc> Didn't say that, I just said it couldn't be cloned the way I described it.
15:36:45  <narc> i.e. using a deep scan and then simulating the results.
15:36:48  <Razaekel> oh
15:36:53  <narc> Quanta are annoying like that.
15:36:54  <Razaekel> eh
15:37:41  <Razaekel> the book i read which assumed it had a quantum structure used a deep scan to simulate it
15:37:51  <Razaekel> the result, tho, was that the to brains were linked
15:37:54  <Razaekel> two*
15:38:04  <narc> Ha, human-machine telepathy.
15:38:14  <Razaekel> not that kind of linked
15:38:15  <narc> The ultime brain-computer interface? :)
15:38:20  <narc> *ultimate
15:38:25  <narc> I kid, I kid.
15:40:08  <Razaekel> the point of the quantum structure is that it arose from the extreme complexity of the brain, and thus a simulation of that complexity ended up creating a duplicate quantum structure, which resulted in the two being quantum entangled
15:40:35  <Razaekel> but when the human died, the other brain experienced a bit of a backlash
15:40:47  <narc> Eenteresting.
15:42:23  <narc> Would you happen to recall the title of this book?
15:42:32  <narc> And/or the author?
15:42:36  <Razaekel> i already said i dont remember the name
15:42:44  <narc> Right, sorry.
15:42:47  <Razaekel> if i dont remember the name, i cant remember the author
15:42:58  <narc> Let's see if Google helps any.
15:44:05  <XeryusTC> hmm, with enough processing power one could simulate a human brain, although i doubt that you could properly fit the neural networks that a human brain form so quickly into a computer
15:44:59  <planetmaker> you need a neural network obviously.
15:45:14  <Razaekel> the closest we have to a human brain in terms of hardware is a FPGA
15:45:16  <XeryusTC> from a purely biological standpoint it would be very hard to do as every neuron has thousands of incomming and outgoing connections all being influenced by certain types of hormones
15:45:33  <XeryusTC> and on top of that there are other chemicals that apparently are used to store memory and other things
15:46:10  <narc> All details fickle enough to leave inside the black box of "brain-computer consciousness transfer"
15:46:17  <XeryusTC> and other chemicals that influence the overal mood of the brain and such
15:47:01  <narc> Still, the fact that we know these things points to the fact that the problems can probably be overcome, given enough engineering.
15:47:17  <planetmaker> my personal feeling is "if you can clone a brain - then you can do anything. It doesn't matter anymore" :)
15:48:07  <narc> Oh, there are bound to be problems bigger than that.
15:48:16  <narc> Just because you can clone it, doesn't mean you understand it.
15:48:26  <planetmaker> I don't think so :)
15:48:28  <XeryusTC> i think the most effecient way to solve such a thing is to make a computer interface for the brain and spinal cord
15:48:35  <XeryusTC> anyway, dinner time
15:49:14  <narc> Truth is, that is a neat option -- but how feasible is it to keep a brain in a jar alive for several centuries (at least) of ship time?
15:49:27  <Razaekel> not
15:49:34  <Razaekel> well
15:49:36  <Razaekel> alive, sure
15:49:43  <Razaekel> conscious?
15:49:52  <Razaekel> eehhh
15:50:00  <narc> Granted, it might be less of a problem than simulating the same brain inside a computer.
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15:50:12  <narc> Alive, conscious. The brain is the ship.
15:50:29  <narc> To some extent, anyway.
15:50:34  <Razaekel> several centuries is a long time without any interaction
15:50:55  <Razaekel> there's no gurantee that it'll be sane when it gets back
15:51:02  <narc> Depends on what you mean by interaction.
15:51:37  <Razaekel> imo, it would be better to simulate the brain in a computer
15:51:38  <narc> The entire situation makes for an enormous change from the human condition.
15:51:45  <PublicServer> *** elmz joined the game
15:51:49  <Razaekel> at least that way, it can control the relative time speeds
15:52:05  <Razaekel> or even just sleep until it arrives
15:52:07  <narc> That would still be feasible as a brain in a jar, to an extent.
15:52:16  <Razaekel> i dont think so
15:52:44  <Razaekel> we, as humans, dont have idnetical brains, yet we all seem to experience passage of time at the same rate
15:52:54  <planetmaker> narc: keeping a brain alive for prolonged time, even centuries - that is again something which I find probably to exist given due time and technological advances
15:52:54  <Razaekel> putting a brain in a jar wouldnt change that
15:53:30  <Razaekel> besides, the equipment necessary to keep that brain alive
15:53:30  <narc> True, but this brain has a chance to change its own biochemistry within a huge range, not available to one in a fully biological body.
15:53:41  <Razaekel> would be bulky
15:53:50  <Razaekel> a computer requires much less equipment
15:54:14  <narc> Wouldn't bet on that -- I'd expect about the same order of magnitude of the volume of equipment.
15:54:26  <planetmaker> Razaekel, considering an interstellar passage, the equipment to maintain one brain cannot be the major thing to sustain :)
15:54:38  <narc> The complexity of the equipment, on the other hand, can be very different.
15:54:54  <Razaekel> go read Accelerando
15:55:39  <Razaekel> they advanced enough that they could simulate multiple brains inside a large simulation on a small peice of equipment
15:55:56  <narc> Meh. Not sure I buy that. Moore's law doesn't go on forever.
15:56:17  <Razaekel> it goes pretty far
15:56:20  <narc> Otherwise, define "small".
15:56:26  <Razaekel> couple cm
15:56:28  <Razaekel> probably
15:56:34  <narc> Not very likely.
15:56:51  <Razaekel> *snort*
15:57:05  <narc> Either way, consider this entire ship is built around the (human or AI) brain that's going to drive it.
15:57:15  <Razaekel> this is the future and you're saying 'not very likely'?
15:57:30  <Razaekel> that's what they said about flying
15:57:40  <narc> Well, I didn't say "impossible", did I?
15:57:50  <Razaekel> they also said flying was impossible
15:57:56  <narc> I don't believe it's impossible.
15:58:10  <narc> Just not very likely, at least not for the relatively near future I'm going for.
15:58:12  <Razaekel> so there's no point saying not very likely
15:58:14  <PublicServer> <elmz> finally connected :)
15:58:43  <Razaekel> nerc, what do you know about the singularity
15:58:44  <Razaekel> ?
15:58:48  <Razaekel> narc*
15:58:54  <narc> I need the equipment to be bulky enough that it doesn't make sense to send more than one intelligence on this ship, but also advanced enough that the intelligence *can* be placed on it.
15:59:03  <narc> I vaguely remember the term.
15:59:29  <Razaekel> alright
15:59:48  <Razaekel> theoretically, you could put a brain in a vat and feed it stimulus
16:00:00  <Razaekel> you're gonna need equipment to clean the fluid
16:00:34  <Razaekel> but in that case, i'd use delta wave stimulus to keep the brain asleep
16:00:54  <narc> Hrm.
16:00:56  <Razaekel> unless something comes up that the ship's computer cant handle
16:01:14  <planetmaker> sounds like a good plan, Razaekel
16:01:30  <narc> Of course, the brain itself can be in charge of ordering delta-wave stimulus to put itself to sleep.
16:01:38  <Razaekel> of course
16:01:48  <narc> So that's the brain in a jar, then.
16:01:52  <XeryusTC> back
16:01:59  <narc> wb, XTC
16:02:02  <Razaekel> it's not really necessary for the brain to be awake the entire time or even on a standard sleeping cycle during the flight
16:02:06  <Razaekel> space is big
16:02:08  <Razaekel> and boring
16:02:08  <narc> Very much agreed.
16:02:30  <narc> It could wake up once in a while just to look around, see if there's anything interesting nearby (say, once a year or so?)
16:02:37  <Razaekel> now, if you had the ability to simulate a fantasy world, basically, then you could keep the brain awake
16:02:37  <narc> Then put itself back to sleep.
16:03:09  <Razaekel> it would just feed that data into the brain interface, so it'd be 'real'
16:03:17  <narc> Well, the brain can simulate a fantasy world itself -- see dreams -- so expanding that to a state of lucid dreaming wouldn't be impossible.
16:03:21  <XeryusTC> hmm, i think you want the brain to be able to wake up when the ship's in danger
16:03:36  <narc> Aye, but that's what the ship's computer is for.
16:03:47  <XeryusTC> and to keep navigating the ship in case it hits an unpredicted gravity well etc :P
16:03:50  <Razaekel> alpha wave stimulation plus a shot of adrenaline
16:04:20  <narc> These are details that the story doesn't need to tell, but they're good to know in advance.
16:04:22  <XeryusTC> now that is not a very nice method of waking a brain up :P
16:04:31  <Razaekel> the ships computer would be able to wake the brain in one of 3 situations
16:04:34  <Razaekel> the ship is in danger
16:04:40  <Razaekel> the ship doesnt know what to do
16:04:44  <XeryusTC> narc: a good story comes from knowing facts that aren't told in the story but good to know anyway ;)
16:04:47  <Razaekel> or it's a prearranged wakeup time
16:04:48  <narc> Oh, hell, why not just flash a big noisy alarm in its visual and auditory cortexes?
16:04:53  <narc> Exactly.
16:05:08  <narc> XeryusTC: That's why we're brainstorming, no? :)
16:05:18  <XeryusTC> quite ;)
16:05:29  <narc> So we could do it as a brain in a jar, at least from this standpoint.
16:05:48  <narc> The question is, can it remain alive for useful periods?
16:06:12  <narc> Or do we need some kind of stasis device to keep it fresh? (see Niven's Slaver Stasis)
16:06:32  <Razaekel> some genetic tinkering should help
16:06:49  <narc> Could we assume nano-engineering good enough to repair damaged neurons?
16:06:56  <Razaekel> although, since the brain is in a jar, and doesnt have it's own tempeature/pain nerves
16:07:05  <Razaekel> you could chill the fluid
16:07:08  <narc> If we can assume the nanos, we can keep it alive indefinitely.
16:07:17  <Razaekel> nanos are a cheat device
16:07:20  <Razaekel> :-P
16:07:23  <planetmaker> narc, way easier to add from time to time new stem cells which become new neurons.
16:07:25  <narc> Or if not nanos, some way to trigger cell regrowth.
16:07:32  <narc> Yah, I was just about to say that, pm
16:07:35  <planetmaker> stem cells can be carried frozen and thus in stasis
16:07:53  <Razaekel> or genetic tinkering to fix the telomeres
16:08:00  <narc> That solves that problem, then.
16:08:02  <Razaekel> in which case, cells dont suffer from aptosis
16:08:03  <planetmaker> given proper hormones they can be programmed to become brain cells e.g. neurons.
16:08:17  <Razaekel> but then you have the risk of cancer
16:08:23  <Razaekel> which could be a plot point
16:08:46  <narc> The Fear for a brain in a jar: the threat of cancer.
16:09:11  <Razaekel> heh
16:09:13  <planetmaker> hm...
16:09:17  <narc> We could irradiate cancer cells, but at the cost of killing a bunch of healthy cells with it, all of them needing to be regrown later.
16:09:21  <XeryusTC> add some chemical that puts the brain in stasis
16:09:34  <Razaekel> it would be uncontrolled division of cells
16:09:44  <Razaekel> which results in the brain growing larger than the jar
16:09:51  <Razaekel> with unhappy results
16:09:58  <narc> Which is death, basically.
16:09:59  <planetmaker> narc: rather do dedicated microwaving. Just frying the cancer helps
16:10:03  <narc> Right.
16:10:05  <XeryusTC> the main problem of cells dying is just pure age and them  having devided too much
16:10:26  <Razaekel> xeyrus, that's suspected to be a result of telomere degradation
16:10:32  <narc> Aye.
16:10:53  <narc> So do we want to mess with the telomers, or would we rather grow new neurons from stem cells?
16:11:06  <narc> Either way, there's a potential for runaway cell division.
16:11:15  <narc> (i.e. cancer)
16:11:55  <narc> I sort of prefer the stem cell idea, it's a bit closer to what we can do today.
16:12:30  <Razaekel> but you can only carry a limited amount of stem cells
16:12:38  <narc> It's a big ship.
16:12:40  <Razaekel> eventually you're gonna run out
16:12:54  <narc> All you have to be careful of is that you don't run out before you can get back home.
16:13:29  <narc> Several centuries of ship-time is a limited time-frame.
16:14:06  <narc> Maybe some combination? Assume telomeres can be messed with enough to enhance the lifetime of a neuron enough that you don't have to carry as many stem cell replacements.
16:14:27  <narc> Even 10% longer life is good enough on the order of centuries.
16:14:37  <XeryusTC> but you can grow stemcells to get more stem cells
16:14:45  <Razaekel> considering neurons already last almost a lifetime
16:14:57  <narc> Yes, but then they need nutrients, etc, which the brain itself also needs.
16:15:05  <XeryusTC> so if you divide one cell 100 times you could maybe use only 50% for the regrowing of cells
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16:15:40  <XeryusTC> but, the problem with replacing cells is that they need to make the same neurological connections again too
16:15:50  *** mixrin has joined #openttdcoop
16:16:03  <XeryusTC> so you might end up with a brain that ends up schizophrenic or something like that
16:16:04  <Razaekel> if your cells have already died, then you've already lost some function
16:16:09  <narc> Not necessarily the same connections.
16:16:36  <narc> Just enough that damaged memories can be recreated in the newly-grown sections.
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16:16:49  <KenjiE20> holy crap, it's a narc
16:16:52  <narc> I suspect the brain can do this on its own.
16:17:05  <narc> Heh.
16:17:18  <XeryusTC> the brain doesnt really restore dead neurons
16:17:32  <XeryusTC> but maybe you're trying to prevent a kind of slow stroke
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16:17:40  <narc> True, but it does shift memories around from damaged areas to undamaged ones.
16:17:56  <narc> So if you gave it a new undamaged area it could theoretically use that.
16:18:32  <XeryusTC> i guess it will move the memories to a previously unused area and you then replace the old died of area
16:18:42  <narc> Pretty much.
16:18:46  <XeryusTC> which could maybe lead to partial replacements of the brain over a longer livespan
16:18:53  <XeryusTC> much like upgrading or maintenance :P
16:19:10  <narc> Right, and doing enough of those would eventually net you a whole new brain with most of the memories of the old one.
16:19:24  <XeryusTC> so you can have one individual going through so many partial replacements that it actually had 20+ brains in its livetime
16:19:29  <narc> Naturally, they'd seem more faded, like our memories of childhood are.
16:19:35  <narc> Yah.
16:19:41  <planetmaker> XeryusTC, I think I recently read in Nature that neurons are indeed restored - contrary to long-established believe
16:19:45  <XeryusTC> much like placing the whole personality in a new brain, but in smaller steps
16:19:59  <narc> Although at that point, I dunno if I'd call it the same brain anymore.
16:20:05  <planetmaker> recently = last 12 months or so.
16:20:06  <XeryusTC> planetmaker: was that partially damaged or dead neurons?
16:20:32  <planetmaker> restored = new neurons created like new skin cells.
16:20:43  <planetmaker> replacing dead or dying ones
16:20:43  <narc> I recall hearing about that, too.
16:22:23  <XeryusTC> hmm, i havent heard it but it sound plausible indeed
16:23:00  <XeryusTC> although it was believed that 98% or so (cant remember the exact figure) of your brain and other neurons were grown in early childhood
16:23:09  <XeryusTC> and the other 2% or so is small reconstruction work
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16:25:18  <Tonyf12> !dl win32
16:25:18  <PublicServer> Tonyf12:
16:25:58  <Tonyf12> Damn, my internet is slow today.
16:26:43  <Tonyf12> !password
16:26:43  <PublicServer> Tonyf12: shrugs
16:27:09  <PublicServer> *** Tony joined the game
16:27:47  <PublicServer> <Tony> Do toyland maps always look like this?
16:28:07  <KenjiE20> look like what?
16:28:16  <KenjiE20> a giant junction of insanity?
16:28:37  <PublicServer> <Tony> Ugly. Very Very Ugly.
16:28:44  <PublicServer> *** Kenji joined the game
16:28:56  <PublicServer> <Kenji> is not ugly
16:29:05  <PublicServer> <Kenji> weird maybe
16:29:16  <PublicServer> *** Narc has left the game (connection lost)
16:29:24  <PublicServer> <Tony> It is ugly. It's far too cluttered.
16:29:35  <PublicServer> *** Narc joined the game
16:29:38  <PublicServer> <Kenji> oh the trees?
16:29:38  <PublicServer> <elmz> it wouldn't be bad if they toned down the colors a bit
16:30:01  <PublicServer> <Narc> Bah, yea, toyland is an ugly tileset.
16:30:02  <PublicServer> <Kenji> yea, the tree algorithm doesn't really work for these
16:30:04  <PublicServer> <Tony> Yes. Kenji: Did you think I was talking about the network.
16:30:14  <PublicServer> <Kenji> not really
16:30:20  <PublicServer> <Kenji> being abtuse :P
16:30:23  <theholyduck> wich is why we have tress invisble
16:30:33  <PublicServer> <Kenji> whose 'we'?
16:30:35  <PublicServer> <theholyduck> me
16:30:36  <PublicServer> <theholyduck> :p
16:31:05  <PublicServer> <Tony> What's the keyboard shortcut for that again? I haven't played this in a month.
16:31:16  <theholyduck> PublicServer, no idea, jut open transparency settings
16:31:19  <PublicServer> <Narc> Ctrl+2 for the trees.
16:31:20  <PublicServer> <Kenji> tools, trancparecy options
16:31:29  <PublicServer> <Kenji> get your self a nice toolbar for them
16:31:37  <PublicServer> <Tony> Thanks Narc
16:32:05  <PublicServer> <Narc> Hm, this game is completely GRF-less?
16:32:08  <theholyduck> yeah
16:32:13  <PublicServer> <Kenji> yup
16:32:33  <PublicServer> <Narc> It looks better with OpenGFX than with the default graphics.
16:33:06  <PublicServer> *** theholyduck has left the game (leaving)
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16:33:22  <PublicServer> <Narc> Hrm, the block signals look like PBS signals, that's not nice.
16:33:24  <theholyduck> !password
16:33:24  <PublicServer> theholyduck: shrugs
16:33:39  <PublicServer> *** theholyduck joined the game
16:33:41  <PublicServer> <Narc> Indeed, it's highly confusing.
16:33:42  <PublicServer> <theholyduck> oh god yes
16:33:49  <PublicServer> *** Narc has left the game (leaving)
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16:33:51  <PublicServer> <theholyduck> atleast the background looks better
16:33:57  <PublicServer> <Tony> I've to guess at times anyway. The difference is not clear on 1440 x 900.
16:34:10  <PublicServer> *** PenKnight has left the game (leaving)
16:34:10  <PublicServer> *** PenKnight has left the game (connection lost)
16:34:19  <PublicServer> <Tony> (Difference between signal types)
16:34:21  <narc> !password
16:34:21  <PublicServer> narc: shrugs
16:34:31  <PublicServer> *** Narc joined the game
16:34:39  <PublicServer> <theholyduck> nice invisible trees and towns. make opengfx livable
16:34:48  <narc> With OpenGFX, the path sigs are white-posted, the block sigs are gray.
16:34:51  <PublicServer> *** PenKnight joined the game
16:34:55  <narc> Makes them easy to tell apart from each other.
16:35:14  <PublicServer> *** Kenji has left the game (leaving)
16:35:14  <PublicServer> *** Kenji has left the game (connection lost)
16:35:32  <PublicServer> <Narc> And I see that, for toyland/original gfx, the opposite is true.
16:35:32  <PublicServer> <Tony> How do I get openGFX?
16:35:39  <KenjiE20> bananas
16:35:40  <PublicServer> *** Narc has left the game (leaving)
16:35:40  <PublicServer> *** Narc has left the game (connection lost)
16:35:51  <narc> Right, grab it from bananas, easiest way.
16:35:52  <PublicServer> <theholyduck> yeah, just go download online conent, and select opengfx
16:36:07  <PublicServer> <theholyduck> then all you have to do is enable it in game settings
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16:37:25  <elmz> !password
16:37:25  <PublicServer> elmz: shrugs
16:37:41  <PublicServer> *** elmz joined the game
16:37:46  <PublicServer> <Tony> How do people comprehend these networks? I can't even understand some of the junctions.
16:37:49  <PublicServer> *** Narc joined the game
16:37:55  <PublicServer> <theholyduck> this is a VERY simple junction
16:37:56  <narc> The password's set to change more rarely now, isn't it?
16:37:58  <PublicServer> <theholyduck> take a look at the blog
16:38:13  <PublicServer> <theholyduck> well the middle bit
16:38:14  <PublicServer> <theholyduck> anyway
16:38:17  <PublicServer> <theholyduck> is very simple
16:38:21  <PublicServer> <theholyduck> its a davli/spiral junction
16:38:52  <KenjiE20> complicated by the fact there's a station in the middle
16:38:58  <PublicServer> <theholyduck> true
16:39:00  <KenjiE20> with hooks to 3 branches
16:39:05  <PublicServer> <theholyduck> but if you just disregard it
16:39:08  <XeryusTC> and its sheer size
16:39:09  <PublicServer> <Narc> That, and being spread out over a huge area.
16:39:28  <KenjiE20> hard to disregard when you can't tell whats what without being zoomed right out
16:40:29  <PublicServer> *** Tony has left the game (leaving)
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16:40:53  <PublicServer> <Narc> Hrm. Hub bypass.
16:41:12  <theholyduck> yeah any lines that just need to turn right
16:41:15  <theholyduck> bypass
16:41:16  <Tonyf12> !password
16:41:16  <PublicServer> Tonyf12: buttes
16:41:26  <theholyduck> instead of complicating the exit of the hub
16:41:34  <PublicServer> *** Tony joined the game
16:41:39  <PublicServer> <Narc> Yah, I see the reason for it.
16:41:54  <PublicServer> <Narc> Though it effectively means it's not really the spiral hub anymore.
16:42:02  <PublicServer> *** PenKnight has left the game (leaving)
16:42:02  <PublicServer> *** PenKnight has left the game (connection lost)
16:42:08  <PublicServer> <theholyduck> well it still IS, its just improved for everyones sanity sake
16:42:25  <PublicServer> *** Tony has left the game (leaving)
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16:42:27  <PublicServer> <theholyduck> every line hooks directly into every exit, and then gigatnic mergers at the end
16:42:34  <PublicServer> <theholyduck> thats the spiral hub
16:42:37  <KenjiE20> I thought the idea was to test the layout on the blog
16:42:41  <PublicServer> <theholyduck> doesnt need to actually LOOK like a spiral
16:42:48  <PublicServer> *** Tony joined the game
16:42:48  <narc> KenjiE20: That's what I was thinking, too.
16:42:48  <KenjiE20> not the layout + anything we feel like tacking on?
16:43:03  <PublicServer> <theholyduck> its the exact same layout, but optimized
16:43:12  <KenjiE20> then it's not the EXACT
16:43:21  <PublicServer> <Tony> Ok. OpenGFX, as a base graphics set, still has a way to go. Too many black squares
16:43:33  <KenjiE20> Tony, hence aplha
16:43:36  <KenjiE20> alpha*
16:43:46  <PublicServer> <theholyduck> the "graphs" of where a train starts and exit  is still identical
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16:43:49  <PublicServer> <Narc> Aye, but the black square buildings are nicely ignorable.
16:43:58  <PublicServer> <theholyduck> wich is why we put them on 100% transparency
16:44:03  <PublicServer> <theholyduck> all cities,
16:44:08  <PublicServer> <theholyduck> then all industries at just transparent
16:44:09  <KenjiE20> not the point
16:44:15  <PublicServer> <theholyduck> makes everything more viewable
16:44:21  <PublicServer> <Narc> My personal opinion is that the extra bypasses are an extra complication, but probably upgrade the hub's capacity quite a bit.
16:44:32  <KenjiE20> if the intention was to test the layout. the layout diagram should've been followed
16:44:43  <PublicServer> <Narc> At least they do if there are many trains using the bypasses.
16:44:59  <PublicServer> <theholyduck> thraxian added the bypasses anyway
16:44:59  <KenjiE20> if you add stuff to it, you're not testing the layout anymore
16:45:04  <KenjiE20> you're testing a new layout
16:45:13  <PublicServer> <Narc> But I thought the idea was testing the layout, i.e. the spiral hub, to see at what point it overloads.
16:45:24  <PublicServer> <Narc> As Kenji said, we're not really testing that anymore.
16:45:28  <PublicServer> <theholyduck> narc, it wont ever overload :P
16:45:33  <PublicServer> <theholyduck> it all depends on the mergers at the end
16:45:37  <PublicServer> <Narc> Sure it will. Everything overloads.
16:45:42  <PublicServer> <Narc> Sooner or later.
16:45:43  <PublicServer> <theholyduck> what you're TESTING is the mergers at the end
16:45:48  <PublicServer> <theholyduck> not the junction
16:45:55  <PublicServer> <theholyduck> the junction has no crossovers, no nothing
16:45:58  <PublicServer> <theholyduck> and no breakdowns
16:46:02  <PublicServer> <theholyduck> thus the junction itself will never jam
16:46:19  <PublicServer> <theholyduck> and the exit portion is identical to waht it would have been
16:46:26  <PublicServer> <theholyduck> on the original junction
16:46:40  <PublicServer> <Narc> Not quite identical -- you're merging two sets of tracks: normal exit and the bypass.
16:46:44  <KenjiE20> but by changing it's layout, you've changed the speed stuff arrives at those mergers
16:46:50  <XeryusTC> the junction cant be tested in this game, there is no way that you can overload it
16:46:53  <PublicServer> <Narc> Where as you would only have the normal exit usually.
16:46:57  <KenjiE20> those changing the mechanic of the layout
16:47:16  <PublicServer> <Narc> *whereas. Damn English language :P
16:47:18  <KenjiE20> s/those/thus/
16:47:19  <PublicServer> <theholyduck> but the bypass route is identical to the normal one
16:47:27  <PublicServer> <theholyduck> cpet you only have to build half as many bridges
16:47:30  <PublicServer> <theholyduck> to go OVER the bypass
16:47:36  <PublicServer> <theholyduck> err. normal lines
16:47:38  <KenjiE20> which changes the nature of those lines
16:47:40  <PublicServer> <Narc> It's three extra tracks the normal route didn't have.
16:47:50  <KenjiE20> thus changing the way things play out
16:48:02  <PublicServer> <theholyduck> no, its 3 tracks moovef rom following thei nside, into following the outside
16:48:17  <XeryusTC> !blog
16:48:17  <PublicServer> XeryusTC:
16:48:18  <PublicServer> <theholyduck> so the bypass is  actually LONGER than the original route
16:48:21  <PublicServer> <elmz> is the stuff at the first sign in the sign list acceptable??
16:48:26  <PublicServer> <Narc> I admit I'm not really seeing it very well.
16:48:35  <Tonyf12> What's the improved loading algorithm in the settings?
16:48:42  <Tonyf12> !help
16:48:42  <KenjiE20> elmz -> useually yes
16:48:42  <PublicServer> Tonyf12:
16:48:50  <KenjiE20> -e
16:48:53  <PublicServer> <Narc> Tony: IIRC, it's AKA gradual loading
16:48:58  <KenjiE20> @man improved loading
16:49:01  <Webster> Improved Loading - OpenTTD -
16:49:38  <PublicServer> <elmz> ah well, I've left my signature, people can flame me later if this sucks :)
16:49:53  <PublicServer> <Narc> Ah, I was wrong, then.
16:50:29  <PublicServer> <Narc> It's the one that says "load fullest vehicles first"
16:51:03  <PublicServer> <theholyduck> really, none of the ESSENCE of the spiral has been lost, its just been modified for the sanity of everyone involved building it
16:51:14  <PublicServer> <Narc> But does that also do gradual loading? 'm not sure from the desc on the wiki.
16:51:16  <XeryusTC> <elmz> is the stuff at the first sign in the sign list acceptable?? <- probably no, the first sign should always be the network plan sign
16:51:19  <XeryusTC> !password
16:51:19  <PublicServer> XeryusTC: buttes
16:51:30  <PublicServer> *** XeryusTC joined the game
16:51:30  <PublicServer> <elmz> I removed it again ^^
16:51:43  <PublicServer> <theholyduck> its great on FLAT land, but in real games with TERRAIN,   you cant actually cram that many bridges and splits
16:51:55  <KenjiE20> heh XeryusTC, two different readings of the same sentence
16:52:03  <PublicServer> <XeryusTC> if you want to say something important use a ! or even an !! sign
16:52:13  <XeryusTC> KenjiE20: ?
16:52:15  <PublicServer> <theholyduck> without some major reconscructive surgery
16:52:22  <KenjiE20> [17:48] <@KenjiE20> elmz -> useually yes
16:52:30  <PublicServer> <elmz> I did a "  !! ! Sign" ^^
16:52:44  <KenjiE20> I read it as he was wondering about the contents of the sign list itself
16:52:46  <PublicServer> <XeryusTC> no spaces in advance ;)
16:52:51  <PublicServer> <XeryusTC> top locations are reserved so the say
16:52:52  <KenjiE20> rather than making a sign, as he is
16:53:08  <XeryusTC> ah ok :P
16:53:11  <Razaekel> !password
16:53:11  <PublicServer> Razaekel: buttes
16:53:22  <KenjiE20> in which case my answer is the same as yours :P
16:53:38  <PublicServer> *** Razaekel joined the game
16:53:43  <PublicServer> <elmz> I didn't mean the sign to be more than a way of people to find the location :)
16:53:52  <KenjiE20> " !! blah !! " signs are reserved for network maps and things
16:54:07  <PublicServer> <elmz> yea, I guessed
16:54:08  <PublicServer> <XeryusTC> well, usually putting a single ! in front is enough
16:54:21  <PublicServer> <XeryusTC> as it will end up somewhere near the top anyway
16:54:23  <KenjiE20> "!blah" > "/$/%/&/^ blah" in importance
16:54:31  <PublicServer> <elmz> I'll never touch the exclamation marks again :)
16:55:16  <KenjiE20> yea you will
16:55:32  <PublicServer> <elmz> :P
16:56:15  <KenjiE20> btw narc; the 0.3.0 API lets you do a channel monitor style thing, so I went and did one
16:56:17  <PublicServer> *** Razaekel has left the game (leaving)
16:56:17  <Webster> Title: Wee Enhanced Environment for Chat - Tasks: task #7404, display multiple channels in one... [Savannah] (at
16:56:17  <PublicServer> *** Razaekel has left the game (connection lost)
16:56:21  <KenjiE20> :P
16:56:39  <narc> Hah, neat.
16:56:58  <KenjiE20> although flash looks to be doing something neat that will means it's not needed
16:57:13  <KenjiE20> depends if it's done before 0.3.0 final though
16:57:29  <narc> I'm noticing that. Neat.
16:57:32  <KenjiE20> which once that gets made stable, I'll be switching to
16:57:47  <KenjiE20> no more hydra :)
16:57:51  <PublicServer> *** Narc has left the game (leaving)
16:57:51  <PublicServer> *** Narc has left the game (connection lost)
16:58:01  <narc> CLI clients rock more anyway :P
16:58:18  <KenjiE20> hehe
16:58:25  <XeryusTC> stupid gnu people with their recursive acronyms
16:58:56  <KenjiE20> in fairness, hydra is still nice and I'll still keep it around, but I won't be using it as the main client
16:59:42  * Tonyf12 uses Opera
17:00:55  <XeryusTC> i need a new client anyway
17:00:59  <PublicServer> <elmz> I want to see trains on this thing ^^
17:01:08  <XeryusTC> after i put a clean windows install on my pc in 3 weeks time or so
17:01:21  <PublicServer> *** XeryusTC has left the game (connection lost)
17:01:36  <KenjiE20> meh, xchat isn't that bad
17:01:45  <XeryusTC> this is y-chat
17:01:47  <KenjiE20> just rather glitchy under win gtk+
17:01:53  <XeryusTC> a free windows split from xchat
17:02:02  <narc> I found bersirc to be usable, if not very pretty.
17:02:02  <KenjiE20> it's still xchat tbh
17:02:08  <XeryusTC> and i get verily annoyed by its odd tab complete
17:02:15  <KenjiE20> kvirc isn't too bad
17:02:39  <narc> I like weechat more, though, it's very convenient for my situation.
17:02:53  <Tonyf12> What odd tab complete?
17:02:53  <KenjiE20> the only thing I'll miss on weechat is clickable links
17:02:57  <KenjiE20> but meh
17:03:13  <narc> I don't miss those, the XFCE terminal auto-links.
17:03:22  <narc> Same as GNOME terminal, IIRC.
17:03:39  <narc> Not sure if xterm does it also, but I wouldn't be surprised if it did.
17:03:44  <KenjiE20> SSH'ing doeesn't afaik
17:03:46  <narc> Would be a useful extra for putty.
17:03:50  <KenjiE20> unless I missed a setting
17:03:58  <XeryusTC> xchat doesnt have clickable links either, you need to right click them first xD
17:04:11  <XeryusTC> they don't have a default action for it in their context menu :s
17:04:11  *** seandasheep has quit IRC
17:04:11  <KenjiE20> that's not awful though
17:04:19  <narc> It depends what you do your SSH with. PuTTY doesn't look for links in the text it displays.
17:04:22  <KenjiE20> save random misclicks
17:04:35  <KenjiE20> hmm
17:04:55  <KenjiE20> I could always X11 forward openbox with the xfce terminal running
17:05:01  <PublicServer> *** Tony has left the game (leaving)
17:05:02  <PublicServer> *** Tony has left the game (connection lost)
17:05:02  <KenjiE20> but that's probably a bit much
17:05:02  <narc> That'd very likely work.
17:05:14  *** Tonyf12 has left #openttdcoop
17:05:30  <KenjiE20> iirc I saw a link collector for 0.2.6 with networkable actions
17:05:30  <narc> Well, Cygwin X11 server required, so yeah, it's a bit much.
17:05:34  <narc> But works.
17:05:46  <narc> I think.
17:06:49  * XeryusTC goes to try weechat
17:07:19  <KenjiE20> there ->
17:07:33  <narc> I'm very curious if PuTTY can't be convinced to highlight URLs after all.
17:07:45  <KenjiE20> I think I'd need ssh server on windows though
17:07:47  <XeryusTC> no compiled binaries for windows?
17:07:50  <KenjiE20> >.> so it's not much better
17:07:56  <narc> SSH server? Why?
17:07:58  <KenjiE20> nope, runs under cygwin
17:08:11  <XeryusTC> hmm, too bad
17:08:16  <KenjiE20> since it uses curses
17:08:22  <XeryusTC> my cygwin is even more broken than my xchat
17:08:27  <PublicServer> *** Mark joined the game
17:08:27  <XeryusTC> although that's mainly for compiling :P
17:08:32  <KenjiE20> narc; it uses ssh to send a remotecmd
17:08:33  <narc> Oh, right. You want to send URLs to your win box.
17:08:36  <narc> Yah.
17:08:55  <narc> Probably easier to go for the Cygwin X11 server and X forwarding.
17:08:58  <PublicServer> <Mark> bah
17:09:01  <PublicServer> *** Mark has left the game (leaving)
17:09:01  <PublicServer> *** Mark has left the game (connection lost)
17:09:08  <KenjiE20> probably
17:09:37  <PublicServer> <elmz> one question....
17:09:38  <KenjiE20> although running X11 even with openbox wm is still something I'd rather not do on that box
17:09:51  <narc> Run it without a WM.
17:09:52  <PublicServer> <elmz> why must ALL bridges be doubled?
17:09:59  <narc> You only need the terminal to run, right?
17:10:01  * KenjiE20 wonders if theres an alt to putty
17:10:02  <XeryusTC> oh, all this reminds me that i should grab ubuntu :P
17:10:08  <Mark> only ML bridges must be doubled
17:10:17  <KenjiE20> elmz, cause it screws with the ML flow
17:10:23  <narc> XTC: Yah, Ubuntu is great.
17:10:36  <XeryusTC> mark that makes it sound like sl bridges must not be doubled
17:10:46  <PublicServer> <elmz> you double 4 tile bridges, yet somewhere you only double 10 tile bridges ^^
17:10:48  <KenjiE20> narc; forwarding needs the host apps to run on the server, i.e. x11 server, WM, app
17:10:51  <hylje> there are some putty forks which did url highlighting
17:10:56  <Mark> XeryusTC: usually not
17:10:58  <XeryusTC> narc: i hope it works better than my previous experiences with fedora core did
17:10:59  <hylje> namely nutty, but i recall it's old
17:11:08  <narc> KenjiE20: So use TWM, or some other really crappy wm.
17:11:10  <KenjiE20> so PuTTy
17:11:13  <XeryusTC> mark: i meant like, they never ever may be doubled
17:11:15  <XeryusTC> as a rule
17:11:23  <XeryusTC> not as in you can do so, but you dont have to :P
17:11:24  <narc> You only need the terminal to display, nyet?
17:11:30  <KenjiE20> openbox, is pretty much the lightest vm I've seen
17:11:38  <KenjiE20> wm*
17:11:42  <narc> I'm thinking xmonad might be even lighter.
17:11:49  <Mark> all right: "ML bridges should always be doubled, and SL if needed"
17:11:51  <theholyduck> openbox uses the MOST HORRIBLE xml config format
17:11:53  <theholyduck> EVER
17:11:56  <narc> twm is extremely light, it does almost nothing.
17:11:57  <KenjiE20> still X11 is a mem hog on this box
17:12:04  <theholyduck> like seriously
17:12:19  <narc> Well, X is X.
17:12:21  <KenjiE20> that's why obconf exists
17:12:31  <theholyduck> KenjiE20, cept the openbox menu tool is rubbish
17:12:38  <KenjiE20> no it's not
17:12:38  <theholyduck> and didnt let me do what i wanted with it
17:12:50  <hylje> big resolution = big images = big memory
17:12:53  <theholyduck> so i actually had to  edit the menu by hand
17:12:54  <KenjiE20> it's pleasant, and xfce-ish
17:13:07  <theholyduck> well yeah, but the xfce menu tool is even MORE rubbish
17:13:14  <theholyduck> as in the tool for making 100% custom menus
17:13:26  <theholyduck> you cant actually specify all item types for the xfce menu IN the menu editor
17:13:31  <theholyduck> if you want some of the more cool options
17:13:45  <theholyduck> you literally have to dig out your text editor and face the horror that is editing xml by hand
17:14:28  <theholyduck> but there is no good reason why they couldnt use a human readable plain text format?
17:14:31  <theholyduck> like fluxbod does
17:14:36  <theholyduck> *fluxbox
17:14:47  <theholyduck> xml as a configuration format should DIE
17:15:00  <narc> Aye, definitely agree to that.
17:15:22  <narc> XML is unnecessarily complex for configuration files.
17:15:28  <narc> And verbose.
17:15:32  <theholyduck> narc, and a horrible pain to type out by hand
17:15:34  <XeryusTC> theholyduck: xml is meant to be human readable
17:15:38  <planetmaker> hehe. In principle xml IS human readable. It's just blowing things up wrt size.
17:15:38  <theholyduck> XeryusTC, MENT yes
17:15:44  <narc> XML is not meant to be human-editable.
17:15:54  <narc> Readable, yes -- editable, no.
17:16:01  <theholyduck> XeryusTC, it invovles a horrible amount of typing and <> and /'<
17:16:03  <theholyduck> etc
17:16:17  <theholyduck> in fluxbox you have a ultra simple menu format, without end tags
17:16:18  <theholyduck> etc
17:16:20  <planetmaker> yes. readable. Not editable. That's the good destinction IMO :)
17:16:21  <XeryusTC> well, that's what you get for sgml based languages
17:16:33  <narc> Of course, since we're programmers, we can still force ourselves to do it, but we're the same people who write HTML by hand.
17:16:47  <XeryusTC> but indeed, editable is a bit hard
17:16:49  <planetmaker> otoh xml is WAY more flexible than many config languages.
17:16:59  <narc> It is, but do you *need* that flexibility?
17:17:01  <theholyduck> planetmaker, but who needs it when you're writing a config?
17:17:19  <theholyduck> i mean, if systems shipped PERFECT editing tools
17:17:22  <theholyduck> that were nice and usabel
17:17:33  <theholyduck> i wouldnt care so much about what they stored the stuff in on the backend
17:17:37  <narc> Consider the config method XULRunner uses -- a bunch of Javascript instructions: SetConfig('key', 'value')
17:18:05  <theholyduck> but openbox and xfce's are both rubbish at letting me do what i want with the configs
17:18:05  <narc> (and a bunch of other details not worth mentioning)
17:18:08  <KenjiE20> oooh
17:18:09  <Webster> Title: PuTTY Tray (at
17:18:13  <XeryusTC> i still prefer ini based formats for config
17:18:22  <XeryusTC> or something like narc just said indeed
17:18:42  <narc> Ha, that looks perfect, Kenji.
17:18:47  <KenjiE20> indeed
17:18:50  <planetmaker> ini based formats are best IMO for configuration. At least if the user is supposed to be able to edit it...
17:18:52  <XeryusTC> i usually just make my configs in the scripting languages if i use one
17:19:03  <KenjiE20> esp. since PuTTY hasn't been updated in what? 2, 3 years?
17:19:13  <XeryusTC> that way you can just call a bunch of SetConfig('key', 'value') thingies
17:19:19  <narc> I usually use INI format, mostly because pretty much all languages can read it cheaply.
17:19:21  <theholyduck> [exec] (ApplicationName) {/path/to/program} </path/to/icon>
17:19:22  <theholyduck> = <3
17:19:28  <theholyduck> nice and simple and copy-pastable
17:19:34  <narc> (see PHP's parse_ini_file('/path/to/config'))
17:19:37  <theholyduck> since you dont have to wory about where things start and end
17:20:04  <theholyduck> you dont actually need the path to program either :P
17:20:07  <planetmaker> convince the programmer of that programme ;)
17:20:07  <KenjiE20> 2007-04-29 PuTTY 0.60 is released <--- 2 aparantly
17:21:24  <KenjiE20> hm, mind you tray's not much better
17:21:31  <KenjiE20> meh
17:21:44  <narc> Yay, hyperlinks in PuTTY.
17:22:05  *** mixrin has quit IRC
17:22:12  <narc> Of course, I'm starting to really hate Courier New.
17:22:31  <KenjiE20> roll on html5 and embeddable fonts
17:23:23  <theholyduck> embedable fonts have their uses :P
17:23:32  <theholyduck> its one of the strenghts of the .mkv video format
17:23:39  <theholyduck> the fact that you can embedd arbritary data
17:23:51  <KenjiE20> yes, (mkv is a container btw)
17:23:54  <theholyduck> sure
17:23:58  <theholyduck> i MENT container
17:24:11  <KenjiE20> ofc
17:24:12  <theholyduck> i dunno why i said video
17:24:57  <KenjiE20> oh cool, putty tray is just a putty.exe replacement
17:24:57  <theholyduck> now you can even get mplayers with propper ordered chapter supports
17:25:02  *** mixrin has joined #openttdcoop
17:25:02  <KenjiE20> heh, win
17:25:08  <theholyduck> wich is really nice
17:25:20  <narc> Hrm. Can I get the Monospace font from Linux into Windows? Let's find out...
17:25:23  <theholyduck> the 1 last reason to detest mkv is gone :P
17:26:02  <KenjiE20> heh, probably narc
17:26:30  <theholyduck> KenjiE20, so, do you like ordered chaptes?
17:27:12  <KenjiE20> depends what I'm watching and how
17:27:26  <theholyduck> well orderd chapters is not chapter points :P
17:27:40  <theholyduck> incase we misunderstood eachother
17:28:00  <theholyduck> its the ability to insert a external videofile at any moment of the videofile you're playing
17:28:18  <theholyduck> so like you could have 1 set of series intro/ending
17:28:25  <theholyduck> and then just link it into all the episodes
17:28:25  <KenjiE20> oh right that
17:28:52  <KenjiE20> it's useful for sure, but I've only seen two series subbers do it, and both series seem to have stalled
17:29:07  <theholyduck> well kurenai and freedom both had them
17:29:08  <KenjiE20> so I've never actually used it
17:29:09  <narc> Muh? FreeMono isn't monospaced?
17:29:17  <KenjiE20> lol
17:29:21  <narc> No, really.
17:29:30  <narc> That's downright confusing.
17:29:31  <theholyduck> and some dvd rip groups  are using it aswell
17:30:33  <KenjiE20> why would you do it for freedom? The only bit is the 1:20min intro
17:30:42  <KenjiE20> and there was a grand total of 6 eps
17:30:50  <theholyduck> and the outro?
17:30:50  <KenjiE20> seems mildly pointless
17:30:58  <theholyduck> they had 3 diffrent ops and 3 diffrent eds i think
17:30:59  <KenjiE20> outro was different each ep
17:31:05  <theholyduck> no, only every OTHEr ep
17:31:12  <theholyduck> same for intros
17:31:15  <theholyduck> they changed every other ep
17:31:16  <theholyduck> or so
17:31:19  <KenjiE20> each ED had scenes from that epp
17:31:21  <KenjiE20> =p
17:31:21  <theholyduck> ah
17:31:24  <KenjiE20> *-p
17:31:26  <theholyduck> but each op was every other ep
17:31:27  <theholyduck> anyways
17:31:29  <theholyduck> thora subbed it
17:31:32  <theholyduck> in HIGH BITRATE
17:31:34  <theholyduck> hd
17:31:40  <theholyduck> so they saved a fair bit of space actually
17:31:43  <KenjiE20> meh I got the HDTV rips
17:31:52  <KenjiE20> 368Mb per iirc
17:31:54  <theholyduck> hmm, i dont htink those existed?
17:31:56  <theholyduck> as in subbed anyway
17:32:02  <theholyduck> yoroshiku did the dvd rips
17:32:09  <theholyduck> then theora did half the hd-dvd rips
17:32:15  <KenjiE20> [AF-F_Y-F]_Freedom_-_04_[H264-AC3][72F415ED].mkv
17:32:16  <theholyduck> then theora redid all the eps from bluray
17:32:19  <theholyduck> with orderd chapters
17:32:23  <theholyduck> KenjiE20, those are dvd rips
17:32:40  <theholyduck> freedom never aired on tv
17:32:52  <KenjiE20> good point
17:33:04  <theholyduck> actually, it was the first and last series as far as i know
17:33:12  <theholyduck> to air on a dvd-hddvd hybrid
17:33:14  <KenjiE20> still 720x480
17:33:17  <KenjiE20> good enough for me
17:33:19  *** [alt]buster has joined #openttdcoop
17:33:24  <KenjiE20> and my lappy won't choke on them either
17:33:37  <theholyduck> as in, in a dvdplayer it would play as dvd
17:33:45  <theholyduck> and on a hd-dvdplayer it would play as hd-dvd
17:34:01  <theholyduck> same disk
17:34:01  <theholyduck> :P
17:34:12  <KenjiE20> wasn't that the point of ALL hd-dvd discs anyway
17:34:24  <theholyduck> KenjiE20, i dont think that many actually used it
17:34:30  <theholyduck> well im fairly sure it was the last
17:34:40  <theholyduck> they DID finish the series as hd-dvd
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17:34:45  <theholyduck> but the format was dead then
17:35:19  <theholyduck> KenjiE20, the reason the yoroshiku releases had such a GIGANTIC break in the middle
17:35:28  <theholyduck> were because their tl for that series
17:35:31  <theholyduck> got pregnant
17:35:47  <KenjiE20> and I care about that break because?
17:35:49  <theholyduck> and they didnt want to change tls for consitency :P
17:35:53  <hylje> ANIMUUU
17:35:56  <theholyduck> hylje, :P
17:35:59  <theholyduck> KenjiE20, i dunn
17:36:01  <theholyduck> o
17:36:25  <KenjiE20> if I wanted speed I'd murder my brain on DB, but I don't
17:37:25  <narc> Yay, found it (I think). Font is Liberation Mono.
17:37:28  * XeryusTC slaps theholyduck around a bit with Trigun
17:37:35  *** KenjiE20|SSH has joined #openttdcoop
17:37:47  <KenjiE20|SSH> someone poke a lin... nvm better idea
17:37:52  <KenjiE20|SSH> !grf
17:37:52  <PublicServer> KenjiE20|SSH: (Version 7.3)
17:37:57  <KenjiE20|SSH> awesome
17:38:24  <KenjiE20|SSH> that's that little niggle removed
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17:39:39  * KenjiE20 pokes torrents
17:39:46  <KenjiE20> speed up!
17:39:54  <XeryusTC> hmm
17:40:14  <XeryusTC> i wonder if my new game should involve AIs
17:40:25  * KenjiE20 wants to screw with little people's lives
17:40:29  <KenjiE20> :P
17:40:31  <theholyduck> take a whole bunch of diffrent ones?
17:40:35  <theholyduck> and see wich is best?
17:41:09  <XeryusTC> grfpack is huuuuuge
17:41:44  <KenjiE20> 17mb isn't that big
17:42:00  <theholyduck> all the stuff in bananas is like. 100mb?
17:42:01  <theholyduck> or so :P
17:42:03  <theholyduck> ++
17:42:38  <XeryusTC> well, i can remember the time where the grfpack were just 11 newgrfs :P
17:42:40  <KenjiE20> I've seen 500mb touted around #openttd before
17:42:40  <theholyduck> scenarios and heightmap is probally the bulk of it
17:43:01  <XeryusTC> but then again, for the amount of sets that's in the pack it isnt that big
17:43:04  <XeryusTC> but i dont use most of them :P
17:43:39  <KenjiE20> lol QNet is horribly laggy
17:43:45  <KenjiE20> getting burst of 8 messages
17:44:03  <theholyduck> :O
17:44:08  <theholyduck> i prefer rizon's netsplits
17:44:34  <theholyduck> pluss, Qnet is full of gamer trash
17:45:49  <XeryusTC> maybe it's me, but isnt that the idea of qnet?
17:46:39  <theholyduck> stick all the gamer trash there?
17:46:47  <theholyduck> so we dont have to deal with them on all the more sane irc networks?
17:47:51  <XeryusTC> indeed
17:47:58  <XeryusTC> except from the channel your currently in :P
17:48:29  <narc> Hrm, Project Natal is interesting.
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17:50:38  <theholyduck> narc, that video seems more than a little bit fake
17:51:27  <narc> It's hard to believe natural language and body language recognition reaching that far, is it?
17:52:30  <theholyduck> well more the fact that that they dont seem, entirely
17:52:32  <theholyduck> in to it?
17:52:46  <XeryusTC> which video
17:52:47  <theholyduck> and ithe movements on the screen mirrors TOO correctly :P
17:52:47  <XeryusTC> ?
17:52:49  <KenjiE20> hehe Natal
17:52:55  <theholyduck> onto what they do on the screen
17:52:57  <theholyduck> err
17:53:02  <theholyduck> infront of it
17:53:05  <KenjiE20> we're not trawling the depths of gaming peripharels
17:53:07  <KenjiE20> oh no
17:53:07  <narc> You just need a good camera for the mirror.
17:53:17  <narc> To work properly, I mean.
17:53:31  <narc> It's doable. Extremely processing-intensive, but doable.
17:53:47  <theholyduck> narc, sure if they had some sort of tracking dots on joints
17:53:50  <theholyduck> i'd be more convinced
17:54:00  <theholyduck> thats how profesional motion capture is done
17:54:09  <narc> But tracking joints isn't necessary.
17:54:15  <theholyduck> but for it to cope with arbiratay clothing
17:54:20  <narc> It's just capturing an image and determining where the hands are.
17:54:30  <theholyduck> narc, no, it tracks your ENTIRE body :P
17:54:32  <narc> It probably doesn't work very well with skin-color clothing.
17:54:35  <theholyduck> all your movements affect it :P
17:54:41  <theholyduck> or so it says
17:54:43  <narc> No, it only projects the picture of your entire body.
17:54:59  <narc> It needs to track big parts: head, hands, torso.
17:54:59  <theholyduck> little boy playing godzilla
17:55:17  <narc> At least, based on the video I'm looking at.
17:55:18  <PublicServer> *** SmatZ has left the game (connection lost)
17:55:26  <theholyduck> it SEEMS to react to foot movents
17:55:34  <theholyduck> and FULLY BODY MOTION CAPTURE
17:55:38  <theholyduck> is in the marketing blurb
17:55:42  <PublicServer> *** SmatZ joined the game
17:55:56  <narc> Hrm.
17:56:10  <theholyduck> narc, i mean i could belive just tracking the scincolored faces and hands
17:56:12  <PublicServer> <SmatZ> good evening :)
17:56:17  <theholyduck> we got open source software that cando that easily
17:56:23  <narc> Heya, SmatZ! :)
17:56:35  <PublicServer> <SmatZ> hello narc! :)
17:56:51  <XeryusTC> hmm, link to video maybe?
17:56:58  <narc> theholyduck: I was looking at this video: which seems to track only hands.
17:56:59  <Webster> Title: YouTube - E3 2009 - Project Natal - Milo Demo with Peter Molyneux 720p HD (at
17:57:04  <narc> Yes, that.
17:57:14  <theholyduck> narc
17:57:15  <narc> I think I like the 'bot.
17:57:16  <Webster> Title: YouTube - Project Natal (at
17:57:21  <theholyduck> now lets switch
17:57:47  <narc> Yours says clearly "Product vision: Features and details may vary"
17:57:53  <theholyduck> still :P
17:58:03  <theholyduck> what it shows is impossible :P
17:58:04  <theholyduck> for now
17:58:09  <narc> Still, nothing. My video shows what it actually does do.
17:58:15  <narc> And it's a good start.
17:58:23  <PublicServer> *** theholyduck has left the game (connection lost)
17:58:37  <georg> !password
17:58:37  <PublicServer> georg: evades
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17:59:45  <theholyduck> narc, still seems a bit scripted
18:00:01  <narc> It is scripted, but at least it doesn't seem impossible.
18:00:17  <PublicServer> *** SmatZ has left the game (leaving)
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18:00:36  <narc> What strikes me is that it's a lot like an extension of the Wiimote idea.
18:01:11  <narc> They'll probably end up requiring you to wear special shoes and gloves, or else requiring you to train the software to recognize body parts from pictures taken by the camera.
18:03:05  <elmz> !password
18:03:05  <PublicServer> elmz: evades
18:03:17  <PublicServer> *** elmz joined the game
18:03:27  <narc> I think, with good enough hardware and software, it's very doable. Take a few years for the hardware to become mainstream, but why not?
18:03:58  <PublicServer> *** georg has left the game (leaving)
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18:04:09  <XeryusTC> hmm, it's quite possible to do something like that
18:04:43  <XeryusTC> i've been "backstage" (they were still building) at a theatre company once who had 3 very strong beamers to project images on their actors
18:05:07  <XeryusTC> and they kept track of their actors by suspending a ir camera like 15 meters above the stage
18:05:25  <narc> Hm, yah, I hadn't thought of that.
18:05:41  <XeryusTC> before each show they made a picture of the stage as a null picture and they had software which detected changes in the picture as movement of the actors
18:05:48  <XeryusTC> and apparently it was very accurate
18:06:15  <narc> It's actually a much better idea than trying to figure out which part of a picture is a person's hands or whatnot.
18:06:41  <theholyduck> wont work if background temps are high though?
18:07:01  <theholyduck> clammy party or japan during a heatwave without aircon
18:07:02  <narc> Would have to be so high that you'd be cooked and not really feeling like playing a game, wouldn't it?
18:07:11  <theholyduck> narc, only 40 degrees :P
18:07:17  <theholyduck> you can get that atleast outdoors :P
18:07:18  <XeryusTC> theholyduck: apparently it worked in a huge tent in the middle of summer :P
18:07:42  <theholyduck> narc, but lets say
18:07:43  <XeryusTC> but they use ir to negate the effects of the ever changing lights on a stage
18:07:45  *** elmex has quit IRC
18:07:50  <narc> The background temp would have to match body temperature pretty precisely.
18:07:55  <theholyduck> if the sun shone in your window
18:07:58  <theholyduck> onto your coach :p
18:08:02  <theholyduck> for a while
18:08:07  <theholyduck> that would heat up significantly
18:08:10  <theholyduck> to close to or above body temp
18:08:15  <narc> Then the couch will be hot, but it won't look human.
18:08:20  <narc> In shape.
18:08:26  <theholyduck> but it will still give off ir
18:08:27  <narc> Probably not in temperature, either.
18:08:30  <theholyduck> wich makes tracking harder
18:08:31  <narc> Of course.
18:08:33  <XeryusTC> narc: the software doesnt know what is human and what isnt :P
18:08:45  <theholyduck> narc, once you have to track ir in the shape of a human
18:08:48  <theholyduck> it gets more complex
18:08:52  <theholyduck> and strenght of ir
18:08:53  <theholyduck> etc
18:09:02  <XeryusTC> but you have to match the temperature within the margin of error that is written into the program
18:09:09  <narc> Well, you need smart signal analysis to really do the body recognition thing well in the first place.
18:09:12  <theholyduck> XeryusTC, still. it COULD happen?
18:09:17  <narc> It's doable.
18:09:21  <XeryusTC> it could though
18:09:24  <theholyduck> narc, well it would still throw it off
18:09:35  <narc> Of course, but it can be worked around.
18:09:43  <XeryusTC> but then again, some ir cameras are not displaying heat images but normal images but more greenish etc
18:10:15  <theholyduck> XeryusTC, those arent ir
18:10:23  <theholyduck> those are light amplification
18:10:29  <theholyduck> green = light amplification
18:10:32  <theholyduck> black and white = ir
18:10:44  <theholyduck> sure hollywood doesnt actually do it like that
18:10:48  <narc> Infrared is a color.
18:10:50  <theholyduck> but thats how it is in THE REAL world
18:10:53  <XeryusTC> hmm, ok
18:11:11  <theholyduck> narc, well you CAN get ir color aswell, but almost all portable/used equipment
18:11:12  <XeryusTC> but well, they usually claim it to be ir on cameras and such
18:11:18  <theholyduck> especially military, is black/white
18:11:35  <narc> The only way to see infrared is to take the image from a camera that can see IR and shift it around.
18:11:40  <XeryusTC> but my point being, not all ir cameras are meant to measure heat
18:11:41  <narc> At that point, you can make it look any color.
18:12:27  <narc> IR is heat.
18:12:53  <narc> When you measure infrared radiation, you're measuring heat emissions.
18:13:29  <narc> Everything whose temperature is above zero absolute is glowing in infrared.
18:13:35  <XeryusTC> so when gravitation pull is so strong that you get red shifting then the lowest reds would actually turn into just heat?
18:13:52  <narc> Pretty much.
18:14:04  <narc> And the ultraviolets will turn into violets, then blues, etc.
18:14:13  <narc> Blueshifting goes the other way.
18:14:22  <narc> And makes infrared into red and so on.
18:14:50  <XeryusTC> i know, but a photon changing from visible light into head just because of gravitational pull is quite hard to believe :P
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18:14:56  <narc> Travelling at significant fractions of c would allow you to view both phenomena.
18:15:00  <XeryusTC> as they're considered different types of energy
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18:15:20  <narc> What's hard to believe? Gravitational pull imparts more kinetic energy onto the photon.
18:16:02  <narc> Since the photon HAS to move at c, the only way it can show the extra energy is by shifting the color, which itself is just a vibration of the photon.
18:16:19  <narc> That is, color is a measure of the amount of vibration.
18:16:57  <narc> As is heat -- heat is also vibration, but in particles of non-negligible mass, you don't get the same spectrum that photons have.
18:17:05  <narc> All the above is assuming I understand things correctly.
18:17:11  <narc> I was never a physics whiz.
18:17:34  <XeryusTC> true, but certain high frequency types of ir are still considered a colour, even though they're not visible by the naked eye
18:17:41  <narc> So anyone who knows better can go ahead and correct me.
18:18:03  <narc> Gamma rays are a colour, too, if you want to put it that way.
18:18:04  <XeryusTC> and heat is a odd thing to properly define, or i just dont remember it correctly
18:18:08  <PublicServer> *** Game unpaused (enough players)
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18:18:12  <narc> Same as X rays, etc.
18:18:54  <PublicServer> *** Game unpaused (enough players)
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18:19:02  <XeryusTC> yes, but they aren't considered a color, some types of ir and uv are
18:19:10  <XeryusTC> when they closely border to the visible light spectrum
18:19:23  <narc> Colours are just pieces of the electromagnetic spectrum.
18:19:32  <narc> A subset of the EM spectrum is visible light.
18:19:40  <XeryusTC> yeah i know
18:19:48  <narc> Pieces near the visible light spectrum are IR and UV.
18:20:02  <narc> Literally, below red, and above violet.
18:20:46  <narc> And IR also happens to be the frequency that objects radiating heat use to, um, radiate their heat.
18:21:19  <narc> (frequency or spectrum, the latter is more accurate, I think)
18:21:49  <XeryusTC>
18:21:50  <Webster> Title: xkcd - A Webcomic - Electromagnetic Spectrum (at
18:22:08  <XeryusTC> but well, not the entire ir spectrum is considered a colour
18:22:09  <XeryusTC> iirc
18:23:58  <narc> No, but you can go ahead and consider it as such.
18:24:17  <narc> It just feels weird to call it "some FM station's colour" so we use frequency instead.
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18:25:00  <narc> It's a question of terminology, really.
18:25:15  <XeryusTC> well, yes, that's why we only call a part of the irc spectrum colour, but it may also have to do with what the sun radiates and what not
18:25:49  <narc> That makes sense.
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18:35:56  <mensi> !players
18:35:58  <PublicServer> mensi: Client 1184 (Orange) is elmz, in company 1 (OTTDC)
18:36:01  <KenjiE20> <-- haha
18:36:02  <Webster> Title: xkcd - A Webcomic - Troll Slayer (at
18:38:06  <XeryusTC> heh yeah
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18:41:45  <XeryusTC> also, webster is annoying
18:41:59  <LittleBoyRick> !password
18:42:00  <PublicServer> LittleBoyRick: tucked
18:42:15  <PublicServer> *** Game unpaused (enough players)
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18:43:50  <seandasheep> !players
18:43:52  <PublicServer> seandasheep: Client 1188 (Orange) is LittleBoyRick, in company 1 (OTTDC)
18:43:52  <PublicServer> seandasheep: Client 1184 (Orange) is elmz, in company 1 (OTTDC)
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18:47:59  <PublicServer> <LittleBoyRick> This map is hard on my eyes x_x
18:48:50  <mensi> !password
18:48:51  <PublicServer> mensi: tucked
18:49:02  <PublicServer> *** mensi joined the game
18:51:08  <PublicServer> <LittleBoyRick> I do like the plan Thrax made.
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18:59:07  <PublicServer> *** Game paused (not enough players)
19:02:04  <PublicServer> *** elmz has left the game (connection lost)
19:03:38  <KenjiE20> god damn you Toblerone, why are you such a bugger to break up
19:03:45  <KenjiE20> also, mmmm Toblerone
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19:04:52  *** ChanServ sets mode: +o SmatZ
19:06:54  <Ammler> KenjiE20: don't eat our mountains :P
19:07:03  <KenjiE20> omnomnom
19:07:14  <SmatZ> :-D
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19:39:16  <KenjiE20> ping Mark
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19:58:56  <Webster> Latest update from openttd: OpenTTD 0.7.1-RC3 <>
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20:14:51  <SmatZ> !players
20:14:53  <PublicServer> SmatZ: There are currently no clients connected to the server
20:16:31  <Mark> KenjiE20: pong
20:16:37  <KenjiE20> hey
20:16:41  <Mark> hello :)
20:16:42  <KenjiE20> RCT3
20:17:04  <Mark> what's with it?
20:17:18  <KenjiE20> Ostrich Farm Plains, is it me, or is it impossible to paint the same terrain back?
20:17:39  <Mark> i doubt it's impossible
20:17:47  <Mark> i didn't do the career, though
20:17:54  <KenjiE20> well the base one seems to be a mix of mud and light sand
20:18:11  <Mark> lemme see
20:19:20  <XeryusTC> KenjiE20: there was one where you didnt have the proper landscape in the beginning indeed
20:19:29  <XeryusTC> but maybe it's replicable by adding layers or sth
20:19:40  <XeryusTC> or whatever the method of combining landscapes is :P
20:19:45  <KenjiE20> it might be using the blend system
20:20:10  <elmz> !password
20:20:10  <PublicServer> elmz: faints
20:20:12  <KenjiE20> in which case I'd need to alternate tiles
20:20:19  <KenjiE20> uch
20:20:20  <KenjiE20> meh
20:20:21  <PublicServer> *** elmz joined the game
20:21:07  <PublicServer> *** Game unpaused (enough players)
20:21:21  <elmz> I wish there was some way to parameterize the amount of trees on a map
20:21:22  <PublicServer> *** SmatZ joined the game
20:21:28  <KenjiE20> yep, that's it
20:21:35  <KenjiE20> bleh
20:21:36  <PublicServer> <SmatZ> helllo
20:22:01  <elmz> I do like trees, but i'd like to have like 20% of what it is today ^^
20:22:06  <PublicServer> <SmatZ> hmm there are several places that will cause jams :-x
20:22:07  <PublicServer> <elmz> hello
20:22:13  <PublicServer> <elmz> yep
20:22:57  <KenjiE20> it's 50/50 light sand and the first grass tile
20:23:14  <KenjiE20> still doesn't work against the edge tiles, so nuts to i
20:23:16  <PublicServer> <elmz> just point me in the direction of something I can do :)
20:23:16  <KenjiE20> it*
20:24:03  <PublicServer> *** elmz has left the game (connection lost)
20:24:03  <PublicServer> *** Game paused (not enough players)
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20:24:09  <PublicServer> *** SmatZ has left the game (connection lost)
20:24:18  <Mark> :)
20:25:04  <PublicServer> *** elmz joined the game
20:26:48  <KenjiE20> ah well
20:26:57  * KenjiE20 goes back to trying to get tycoon on this scen
20:30:41  <KenjiE20> also, the random screams when I make rct3 the active window again is mildly disturbing
20:32:44  *** theholyduck_ has joined #openttdcoop
20:32:49  <De_Ghosty> ooo
20:32:55  <De_Ghosty> roller coaster tycoon?
20:33:02  <KenjiE20> yes
20:33:26  <KenjiE20> mark's been showing off, making me reinstall it
20:33:36  <De_Ghosty> lol
20:33:43  <De_Ghosty> wanna see my park? :)
20:35:20  <KenjiE20> are you going to link it anyway? :P
20:38:12  *** theholyduck has quit IRC
20:38:38  <KenjiE20> you know what would be really nice in rct, transport ride / path crossings
20:39:41  <KenjiE20> especially since in rct3 you have to go up 3 levels instead of 2
20:39:44  <Mark> there's some cheat to disable collision detection
20:40:18  <Mark> though there'd be glitches of course
20:40:50  <Mark> De_Ghosty: show me :P
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20:43:14  <PublicServer> <elmz> hum hum hum
20:43:52  <PublicServer> <elmz> does someone want to finish this stuff? ^^
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21:02:35  <PublicServer> <elmz> ...guess not :(
21:02:51  <PublicServer> *** elmz has left the game (leaving)
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21:21:47  <tmunkj> !password
21:21:47  <PublicServer> tmunkj: myriad
21:21:57  <PublicServer> *** Tmunkj joined the game
21:24:48  <Mark> !password
21:24:48  <PublicServer> Mark: myriad
21:25:21  <PublicServer> *** Mark has left the game (connection lost)
21:25:25  <Mark> !password
21:25:25  <PublicServer> Mark: domino
21:25:44  <PublicServer> *** Mark joined the game
21:25:45  <PublicServer> <Mark> 'lo
21:26:02  <PublicServer> <Mark> hop in so it unpauses
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21:30:42  <PublicServer> *** Game unpaused (enough players)
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21:31:45  <PublicServer> <Tmunkj> was afk a bit, toyland strains my eyes a bit
21:32:22  <Mark> that joke was funny the first tenthousand times it was made but it's getting a bit annoying now
21:32:45  <KenjiE20> yeah
21:32:56  <gleeb> joke?
21:33:00  <gleeb> Also, Toyland?
21:33:04  <gleeb> We has toyland game?
21:33:18  <XeryusTC> yes
21:33:22  <gleeb> :£
21:33:22  <XeryusTC> and it sucks
21:33:24  <gleeb> :3 *
21:33:26  <gleeb> No u
21:33:27  <XeryusTC> central hub is way too big :P
21:33:40  <narc> Mark: I don't think it's a joke, toyland really is eye-straining. Too many bright colours.
21:33:52  <gleeb> What's the plan? My PC is too crap to run OpenTTD atm.
21:33:56  <Mark> guess i'm immune then
21:34:01  <narc> Somewhat milder on OpenGFX, though.
21:34:04  <XeryusTC> i'm quite immune too
21:34:16  <KenjiE20> I never really found toyland that bad
21:34:25  <XeryusTC> everytime i see toyland it's more like *blink*blink* "ok, my eyes didn't deceive me, this is toyland"
21:34:40  <XeryusTC> after a while the pattern on the tiles gets annoying though
21:35:39  <theholyduck_> gleeb, gigant davil hub
21:35:39  <planetmaker> indeed :)
21:35:50  <XeryusTC> !archive
21:35:50  <PublicServer> XeryusTC: http://www.openttdcoop.ORG/wiki/PublicServer:Archive |
21:35:50  <theholyduck_> look in the blog
21:35:52  <gleeb> davil?
21:36:05  <theholyduck_> gleeb, new invention
21:36:51  <gleeb> Oh, I see where it gets it's name.
21:36:54  <theholyduck_> its like a non shitty roundabout with mergers on the end
21:37:04  <Mark> nice concept though poorly implented in this game
21:37:10  <gleeb> Yeah, I saw the post.
21:37:18  <Mark> poorly as in it takes 250*350 tiles while 100*100 would do
21:37:25  <gleeb> When you said hub, I though you meant a station.
21:37:36  <PublicServer> *** XeryusTC has left the game (connection lost)
21:37:48  <theholyduck_> Mark if we kill a bunch of towns
21:37:49  <theholyduck_> yes
21:38:04  <theholyduck_> and flatten the world
21:38:11  <Mark> nonsense
21:38:25  <XeryusTC> how not cool
21:38:40  <XeryusTC> the only bbh in psg35 has been stripped down alot in the save game
21:38:52  <gleeb> 35 or 135?
21:38:56  <XeryusTC> 35
21:39:04  <gleeb> Odd
21:39:08  <XeryusTC> if i wanted to say 135 i would've said 135
21:39:39  <XeryusTC> first they converted the express lane to maglev halfway through the game making it look alot simpler than it was
21:39:41  <gleeb> It could have been a type.
21:39:52  <XeryusTC> and then they slim it down to the most essential connections only
21:39:54  *** Plimmer has quit IRC
21:39:57  <gleeb> typo *
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21:41:19  <XeryusTC> !password
21:41:19  <PublicServer> XeryusTC: darken
21:41:27  <PublicServer> *** XeryusTC joined the game
21:41:28  <XeryusTC> mark: im with you on the kill towns idea btw
21:42:16  <Mark> the towns aren't even in the way
21:42:34  <PublicServer> <XeryusTC> hmm, maybe not :o
21:43:20  <theholyduck_> as in, you would need to kill a bunch of towns?
21:43:20  <theholyduck_> t
21:43:23  <theholyduck_> *to make room?
21:43:30  <PublicServer> <XeryusTC> how annoying, 7 lanes thick on one side, 9 on the other
21:43:33  <theholyduck_> and various other things in the way
21:43:44  <theholyduck_> XeryusTC, has to be
21:43:47  <PublicServer> <XeryusTC> 12 even
21:43:55  <theholyduck_> XeryusTC, bypasses add up
21:44:05  <theholyduck_> not to mention the number of entrances are uneven
21:44:09  <PublicServer> <XeryusTC> i didnt even count those
21:44:10  <theholyduck_> so some sides will have more lines than others
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21:44:17  <PublicServer> <XeryusTC> personally i would've joined some lines like this
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21:45:08  <gleeb> Uneven numbers are not possible. Assuming every in has n-1 outs, the number of lanes should ALWAYS be equal.
21:45:43  <PublicServer> <XeryusTC> n is spurs
21:45:55  <PublicServer> <XeryusTC> or rather, the amount of :P
21:46:10  <gleeb> mmhmm
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21:51:04  <PublicServer> <XeryusTC> lets let a part of the new line go through where dribblepool first was :P
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21:57:31  <Xaroth> XeryusTC: wait for my map, that'll be a BLAST :P
21:57:46  <XeryusTC> toyland?
21:57:50  <Xaroth> god no
21:57:59  <Xaroth>
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21:58:56  <KenjiE20> ^ tis a good one that
21:59:25  <Xaroth> yar :)
21:59:37  <Xaroth> had a shot at it, quite hard if you want to put in large networks from the start
21:59:40  <PublicServer> *** XeryusTC #1 has left the game (connection lost)
21:59:43  <Xaroth> take a LOT of mm'ing
22:00:03  <XeryusTC> oh, plan space in the map!
22:00:24  <Xaroth> yep
22:00:41  <KenjiE20> yea, thats a cool 'feature' :P
22:00:49  *** FooBar_ has quit IRC
22:01:09  <XeryusTC> it's a feature, not a bug!
22:01:22  <Xaroth> yeh
22:01:52  <PublicServer> <XeryusTC> ~30, ~50 ~70 tiles shrinkage
22:01:55  <Xaroth> only put in 4, not much room to allow for many different plans
22:02:51  *** Booth has joined #openttdcoop
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22:05:09  <Mark> Xaroth: we always fund our own factories
22:05:16  <Mark> so that's hardly a goal
22:05:30  <Xaroth> Mark: often we locate near already-placed factories and expand
22:05:33  <Xaroth> my map has 0 factories
22:05:49  <Mark> uh?
22:05:51  <Mark> not really
22:06:06  <Mark> unless by "we" you don't mean openttdcoop
22:06:36  <XeryusTC> we use already placed factories for mm only
22:06:52  <XeryusTC> the plan uses own funded factories unless there happen to be one already present
22:09:16  <Xaroth> could swear last few maps we had drops placed at already placed factories
22:09:56  *** theholyduck has joined #openttdcoop
22:09:58  <Mark> well.. you're wrong :P
22:10:22  * Xaroth shrugs
22:10:25  <Booth> i have finaly got a nice height map of the Alps
22:10:44  <PublicServer> <XeryusTC> subtile, very subtile
22:10:52  *** Guest441 has quit IRC
22:10:54  <Mark> is it playable?
22:11:14  <Booth> if you mean finished then
22:11:15  <Booth> no
22:11:38  <Booth> i wasnt sure i should use real town / city placements
22:11:45  <Mark> can you upload the heightmap?
22:11:45  <Booth> or just random towns / cities
22:12:20  <Booth> not to here as i dont have the passwords
22:12:28  <Booth> but could put it my website
22:12:33  <KenjiE20> isn't a heightmap with cities an scn?
22:12:39  <Booth> it is
22:12:53  <PublicServer> *** XeryusTC has left the game (connection lost)
22:12:53  <Booth> a hight map is just an image
22:13:12  <Booth> as soon as you turn it into a map its an scn
22:13:14  <Mark> you could just upload it to Ammler's img thingy
22:13:15  <KenjiE20> then perhaps you should've phrased your sentence better
22:13:26  <Booth> no
22:13:28  <KenjiE20> <Booth> i have finaly got a nice height map of the Alps [to turn into a scenario]
22:13:30  <Booth> its a hieght man
22:13:40  <Booth> nothing on it
22:13:48  <Booth> i just made the image
22:13:51  <Booth> and loaded it
22:13:54  <Booth> and am happy with it
22:14:54  <Booth> KenjiE20: have you ever used a height map to create a scn befor?
22:15:15  <KenjiE20> can't say I have or have an urge to
22:15:22  <KenjiE20> but that's not my point
22:16:01  <KenjiE20> my point is your initial phrasing has led to confusion over your subject matter
22:16:06  <Booth> its relay easy
22:16:19  <Booth> if you wanted to you could make a map of your face
22:16:22  *** theholyduck_ has quit IRC
22:17:56  <mensi> !password
22:17:56  <PublicServer> mensi: disuse
22:18:06  <PublicServer> *** mensi joined the game
22:19:05  <PublicServer> *** mensi has left the game (leaving)
22:19:05  <PublicServer> *** mensi has left the game (connection lost)
22:19:33  <PublicServer> *** Mark has left the game (leaving)
22:19:34  <PublicServer> *** Mark has left the game (connection lost)
22:19:34  <PublicServer> *** Game paused (not enough players)
22:19:58  <PublicServer> *** Tmunkj has left the game (leaving)
22:19:58  <PublicServer> *** Tmunkj has left the game (connection lost)
22:20:21  *** tmunkj has quit IRC
22:20:34  <Mark> bye tmunkj
22:20:36  *** georg has left #openttdcoop
22:20:53  <Xaroth> Booth: i have to see my own face enough already.. don't think i'd want a scn of that :P
22:21:24  <Booth> lol
22:21:25  <Mark> we've considered a map with at least the contours of a human body
22:21:35  <Mark> could still do that
22:22:30  <Booth> hm i dont think it would be that fun
22:22:47  <KenjiE20> oh I do
22:22:51  <KenjiE20> :D
22:22:54  <planetmaker> :)
22:22:57  <XeryusTC> hmm
22:23:07  <Xaroth> [@KenjiE20]: oh I do << he's thinking epeenman
22:23:08  <Booth> the thing with my swiss map is oyu get some flat toped mountains
22:23:17  <XeryusTC> lets make a screenshot of some pron movie with loads of women doing indecent stuff and use that as a heightmap :P
22:23:17  <KenjiE20> lol
22:23:32  <KenjiE20> hmmm, pron in ASCII
22:23:33  <planetmaker> hehe
22:23:50  <XeryusTC> KenjiE20: now that would get me going ;)
22:23:56  <KenjiE20> lol
22:23:57  <Booth> see 2 large mountains could be fun
22:24:09  <KenjiE20> might prod aaxine actually
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22:26:33  <KenjiE20> lulz, it sort of works
22:26:51  <XeryusTC> what, ascii pron?
22:27:02  <KenjiE20> yup
22:27:07  <XeryusTC> oh
22:27:09  <XeryusTC> link? :P
22:27:15  <KenjiE20> lol
22:27:19  <KenjiE20> lemme find a decent still
22:27:23  <KenjiE20> :P
22:28:29  <KenjiE20> unless you've got access to a linux box
22:28:48  <XeryusTC> i do
22:28:59  <XeryusTC> or use pastebin or sth
22:29:08  <KenjiE20> apt-get aaxine
22:29:18  <KenjiE20> or whatever it is for your ditro
22:29:19  <KenjiE20> :P
22:30:17  <XeryusTC> meh, ps' apt doesnt like aaxine :o
22:31:19  <XeryusTC> KenjiE20: can you pastebin it?
22:31:34  <narc> Ahaha, aalib front-end to libxine. Possibly in something like aalib-utils, or whatever.
22:31:50  <KenjiE20> maybe
22:32:05  <XeryusTC> hmm, indeed :P
22:32:20  <KenjiE20> do aalib*
22:32:26  <narc> Let's see if it's in libaa-bin
22:32:42  <KenjiE20> that'll prob be 'bb' the demo thing
22:32:47  <XeryusTC> well, i wont do it on Phoenix_the_II's server :P
22:32:50  <narc> Guess not.
22:32:53  <KenjiE20> lol
22:33:10  <narc> xine-console.
22:33:11  <XeryusTC> and im off to bed
22:33:31  <narc> Includes aaxine, cacaxine and fbxine
22:33:31  *** [com]buster has quit IRC
22:33:44  <Booth> evening narc
22:33:49  <narc> Oi, Booth!
22:33:52  *** [com]buster has joined #openttdcoop
22:33:52  *** ChanServ sets mode: +o [com]buster
22:33:53  <KenjiE20> xer, 2secs
22:34:00  <XeryusTC> hmm
22:34:05  <XeryusTC> use proper highlighting :P
22:34:13  <Booth> long time no see
22:34:37  <narc> Yes, indeed. Thank you for nice email, btw.
22:34:52  <Booth> you never replyed :'(
22:34:57  <narc> Yea, I did.
22:35:11  <Booth> i never got it
22:35:16  <narc> ...when I got home. On Sunday.
22:35:31  <narc> Didn't actually have any internets in Crete.
22:35:51  <Booth> ooh crete
22:35:54  <Booth> has was it
22:35:56  <Booth> bet it was hot
22:36:05  <narc> Aye, so it was.
22:36:10  <Booth> did i give you my correct email address?
22:36:12  <narc> But also beautiful.
22:36:22  <Booth> chris_peter_booth@hotmail dot co dot uk
22:36:26  <narc> Dunno, chris_peter_booth at hotil?
22:36:28  <narc> *hotmail
22:36:31  <narc> Heh.
22:36:34  <narc> Then yes, you did.
22:36:49  <narc> Mebbe it went into spam box.
22:37:13  <Booth> it did
22:37:16  <Booth> stupid thing
22:37:44  <narc> Huh, I don't have gzcat on bast?
22:38:01  <narc> Ah, because it's called zcat. Le oops.
22:38:37  <XeryusTC> gn all
22:38:45  <Booth> gn XTC
22:38:46  <narc> nn, XeryusTC
22:39:18  <narc> There, found it. Mail delivered May 31st at 12:57pm, with "250 <message-id> Queued mail for delivery"
22:39:43  <Booth> i found it now narc
22:39:48  <Booth> and thanks for the reply
22:39:49  <narc> I don't send much mail to hotmail, so I'm not surprised they still put it in spam.
22:39:59  <Booth> but i am not sure how automated the reply was
22:40:10  <Booth> concidering it said it was an automated reply
22:40:36  <narc> Nay, it wasn't. The subject is "Re: playing on coop (was: Automated Notification)". Which, to me, it was.
22:40:46  <narc> Contact form uses that subject, after all.
22:41:01  <Booth> aaah i see
22:41:10  <Booth> good old
22:41:21  <narc> Aye. I'm very proud of it.
22:41:32  <Booth> its better than my server
22:41:37  <Booth> which always crashes
22:41:43  <Booth> then takes down my PC
22:41:48  <Booth> and all my VM's
22:42:43  <narc> Hrm. crashes during power outages.
22:42:55  <narc> (WAN link goes down)
22:42:58  <Xaroth> nn
22:42:59  <Booth> get some batterys then
22:43:11  <Booth> and erm i can solve the WAN issue
22:43:17  <Booth> as ISP's suck
22:43:17  <narc> If the outage is long enough, the UPSes won't live through it, either.
22:43:33  <narc> Nay, you canna solve the WAN issue, I'm afraid.
22:43:45  <Booth> get 2 WANs
22:43:56  <Booth> from seperate providers
22:44:08  <Booth> loacted in sperate area of the country
22:44:11  <narc> Not gonna help unless the other WAN gets power from a different power distributor.
22:44:13  <narc> Ha.
22:44:52  <Booth> well if they are not in the same location then they may use a different power plant
22:45:02  <Booth> doesnt romainia have a national grid?
22:45:19  <narc> I'd prefer to get my ISP to drop me a nice, long fiber-optic cable instead of the twisted pair cable coming through my balcony.
22:45:32  <narc> But I'm not really complaining.
22:45:55  <narc> Either it's a short outage, in which case it'll be resolved quickly, or it's not a short one in which case the UPSes will die.
22:46:10  <narc> Either way, having the WAN link working won't help any.
22:46:14  *** [1]Booth has joined #openttdcoop
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22:46:19  *** [1]Booth is now known as Booth
22:46:43  <Booth> @logs
22:46:43  <Webster> WIP logs; now updating on the hour
22:47:13  <KenjiE20> lemme run the script real wuick
22:47:16  <KenjiE20> quick*
22:47:52  <KenjiE20> updated
22:48:42  <Booth> @logs
22:48:42  <Webster> WIP logs; now updating on the hour
22:48:46  <narc> I'm speaking on a very local level, of course.
22:49:15  <Booth> the logs finish at 2pm
22:49:24  <Booth> thats poor KenjiE20
22:49:31  <narc> Hrm, no.
22:49:41  <narc> They finish at "lemme run the script real wuick"
22:49:44  <KenjiE20> umm no
22:49:49  <narc> At 15:47.
22:50:07  <narc> Mebbe you've got an old version stuck in your browser's cache.
22:50:41  <KenjiE20> it can take a little while to get, since each page is ~300kb
22:51:26  <narc> 382 kB in this case.
22:51:39  <narc> :)
22:51:39  <Booth> yeah i had an old cached page
22:51:47  <Booth> what time is the server runnign on?
22:51:52  <Booth> USA eastcoast?
22:51:52  <KenjiE20> @tz
22:51:59  <KenjiE20> oh I removed it
22:52:03  <KenjiE20> @time %Z
22:52:03  <Webster> KenjiE20: PDT
22:52:26  <Booth> which is?
22:52:50  <KenjiE20> pacific
22:52:55  <Booth> i want a direct ethernet cable to my ISP
22:53:04  <narc> US, west coast.
22:53:07  *** Guest442 has quit IRC
22:53:12  <narc> With DST.
22:53:20  <Booth> aah i see
22:53:32  <Booth> said the blind man as he got up and walked off
22:53:52  <narc> About 7 hours off british summer time.
22:53:57  <Booth> what time zone is vancoover in (i know its canada)
22:54:11  <Booth> i went west coast USA last summer
22:54:20  <Booth> was very cold arround SF bay area
22:54:22  <narc> knows :)
22:54:23  <Webster> Title: (at
22:54:30  <narc> Thank you, Webster :P
22:54:43  <Booth> but when you got to the napa valley area it was nice
22:54:46  <Booth> and lots of wine
22:54:49  <Booth> :)
22:55:02  <narc> Vancouver is in PDT also.
22:55:37  <Booth> well its my bed time
22:55:44  <Booth> i have to go to london tomorrow
22:56:06  <narc> Hrm, fun trip or not so fun?
22:56:30  <Booth> not so fun
22:56:34  <Booth> university has finished
22:56:40  <Booth> so i have to go back home
22:56:40  <narc> My condolences, then.
22:56:53  <narc> :)
22:56:57  <KenjiE20> hehe you don't go to london to have fun, you go to get ripped off
22:57:00  <Booth> as have no where to live in, in plymouth anymore
22:57:07  <Booth> lol
22:57:23  <Booth> i like london i have lived there for 18 years
22:57:31  * KenjiE20 was born in Hackney
22:57:45  <Booth> ooh i live in romford
22:57:55  <narc> I've been wanting to visit London (and other bits of the UK) for over a year now.
22:58:04  <narc> Someday I'll probably actually get around to doing it :P
22:58:11  <Booth> dont
22:58:17  <Booth> europe has many nicer places
22:58:22  <KenjiE20> it's nice to visit, but living there is ridiculous
22:58:39  <narc> I'll see Europe's nicer places sooner or later, too.
22:58:44  <Booth> any how 5 hour drive tomoz
22:58:45  <Booth> nn all
22:58:54  <narc> But I want to visit the UK soon-ish.
22:58:56  <narc> nn Booth.
22:59:05  <Booth> go plymouth
22:59:09  <Booth> and the south west
22:59:12  <Booth> that always nice
22:59:14  <Booth> and sunny
22:59:18  <KenjiE20> soon-ish(R)TM of Murphy Inc.
22:59:19  <Booth> toodles all
22:59:26  <Booth> lol
22:59:34  *** Booth has quit IRC
22:59:39  <narc> Aye, that's the one.
22:59:51  <narc> tbh, I don't really care much where in the UK I go.
23:00:03  <KenjiE20> you should hop on the east coast mainline and drop in York Rail Museum
23:00:23  <narc> That sounds very nice :D
23:00:54  <KenjiE20> they're rebuilding 4472 "The Flying Scotsman" there iirc
23:01:17  <narc> Oh, sweet.
23:01:32  <KenjiE20> plus they've got a ton of others
23:01:47  <KenjiE20> and the powercar from a 0series Shinkansen
23:02:07  <KenjiE20> in JR West blue I think
23:02:15  <narc> Yeah, definitely a must-see, must-spend-a-day-looking-around-there :)
23:02:38  <KenjiE20> find the York roman museum thing too
23:02:39  <narc> <-- railfan. 's in me blood :)
23:02:41  <mensi> and if you like tunnels, you can also come to switzerland ;)
23:02:42  <KenjiE20> that's worth a visit
23:03:19  <narc> Hm, Switzerland. Yes, one day, definitely.
23:03:19  <KenjiE20> and if you hop on another train you shouldn't be too far from the North York Moors perserved railway
23:04:31  <Plimmer> If you like shitty trains that never are on time, come to Denmark.
23:04:38  <Plimmer> We got tons.
23:04:45  <KenjiE20> lol
23:04:47  <narc> Ah, sounds like Romania.
23:04:58  <narc> From that point of view, anyway.
23:05:15  <mensi> my train today was 5 mins late
23:05:21  <KenjiE20> meh, UK trains at rush hour are pretty much sure to be late
23:05:22  <mensi> and it's the worst I had for a year or so
23:05:45  <Plimmer> Had a friend comming back from Asia, 2 stops with airplanes, around half the globe and ended up in copenhagen 2 mins before time. Then the train that had to take him 200km was 2 hours late.
23:05:53  <narc> Yah, well, Swiss precision, mensi :P
23:05:54  <KenjiE20> our lines don't have any slack, so one thing goes, everything is late
23:06:25  <KenjiE20> then there's Japan, 91% on time, and late is a delay over 2mins
23:06:49  <narc> Yeah, but the Japanese *have to* move a lot of people daily.
23:07:00  <Plimmer> And if you cant fit in the trains theres people shoving you into the train. :)
23:07:08  <narc> So they overengineer from the start. With good results, too.
23:07:24  <mensi> narc, one day I came back home, after I left the train and got to the stairs, an american woman was rushing up... the train was already moving again though so she said this: "I hate Switzerland" ;)
23:07:43  <narc> Hah.
23:07:50  <KenjiE20> that, and if you get anything wrong in Japan it's generally a disgrace and a poor reflection on ones self
23:08:23  <KenjiE20> which makes for extreme stress levels
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23:11:34  <mensi> they have pretty high suicide rates
23:11:45  <KenjiE20> yes
23:12:51  <KenjiE20> the work ethic, is the one reason I couldn't live there, despite my love for the country
23:13:51  <Plimmer> Why dont I ever build dual tracks when I start on a new map..
23:14:15  <KenjiE20> I don't know, why DO you never build double tracks?
23:14:22  <Plimmer> Work ethics..
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23:14:46  <narc> Good reason :P
23:15:06  <mensi> btw has there ever been a PSG with a grid of double tracks and simple PBS junctions?
23:15:16  <KenjiE20> nope
23:15:20  <mensi> like a big mesh where a YAPF automatically loadbalances
23:15:36  <narc> No, but I think something like that was tested at some point, somewhere.
23:15:42  <KenjiE20> I doubt, YAPF would autobalance quite that way
23:15:45  <narc> ...I know, very useful.
23:15:49  <KenjiE20> but it's worth testing
23:15:55  <mensi> it looks a red signals, so it kinda should pick routeswith less traffic
23:16:09  <narc> It might pick right, yeah. Would depend on the fine-ness of the grid, though.
23:16:20  <mensi> and if you have a full mesh, you should be able to find lots of ways to get somewhere
23:16:27  <KenjiE20> and the distance it wanted to go
23:16:42  <narc> It would probably also take a ton of processing power the more trains you added.
23:17:05  <mensi> a problem could be that the pathfinder kinda degrades to an A* or something on a flat grid with dynamic costs
23:17:07  <KenjiE20> probably
23:17:21  <narc> Yah, pretty much. See also ship pathfinding under YAPF.
23:17:22  *** theholyduck has quit IRC
23:17:28  <mensi> yeah
23:17:39  *** nubn has quit IRC
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23:21:53  <Plimmer> Why is it you only use 6 wagons in your games?
23:22:01  <Plimmer> To get more trains running or?
23:22:09  <KenjiE20> totally up to the planner
23:22:14  <narc> Not all games. Train length is part of the plan.
23:22:26  <Plimmer> Ahh
23:22:36  <KenjiE20> psg131 was a TTT
23:22:58  <KenjiE20> pretty sure we had a 12 tile on recently too
23:23:02  <KenjiE20> noe*
23:23:04  <KenjiE20> one*
23:23:06  <KenjiE20> >.>
23:23:20  <narc> Tired?
23:23:26  <KenjiE20> not really
23:23:38  <KenjiE20> i should be
23:25:13  <KenjiE20> wait wut? This year's prediction was right?! -->
23:25:14  <Webster> Title: Why Linux is ready for the desktop today | Tech News on ZDNet (at
23:25:32  *** theholyduck_ has quit IRC
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23:25:39  <narc> Eh? Interesting.
23:25:52  <KenjiE20> some good points
23:25:55  <narc> I've been semi-expecting an article like that from big IT news for a while now.
23:26:01  <KenjiE20> especially the pre-load thing
23:26:57  <narc> Considering I've got my mother using Ubuntu (at home, at least), I'm not very surprised by the statement.
23:27:13  <KenjiE20> people don't seem overly bothered what OS is there so long as it's se up, works, and does what they expect
23:27:16  <mensi> meeh I don't like linux on my desktop
23:27:19  <narc> Pretty much.
23:27:21  <mensi> us it on the laptop though
23:27:26  *** georg has left #openttdcoop
23:27:32  <Plimmer> My mom got 10 virusses in 10 months and had me fixing it every time. Then I gave her Ubuntu.
23:27:44  *** Fuco has joined #openttdcoop
23:27:47  <narc> As long as it's not extremely cumbersome to learn, people will use just about anything.
23:27:53  <KenjiE20> Dad toggles much like I do
23:28:07  <KenjiE20> and mum keeps asking
23:28:12  <narc> Including using the "wrong" software for various things.
23:28:52  <KenjiE20> the only thing holding mum back is she needs publisher / adobe / japanese 8bit fonts that are on windows, to make sure the stuff she translates works
23:29:09  <narc> "But why did you try to send a 50 MB file through email?" "Because I know how to use email, durr"
23:29:19  <KenjiE20> lol
23:29:43  <KenjiE20> dad gets that occaisionally
23:29:47  <Plimmer> I hate the people that says "just use GIMP".
23:29:59  <KenjiE20> usually ending up with, "I'm not even going to bother"
23:30:07  <narc> Yah, no. The GIMP is painful.
23:30:11  <KenjiE20> "just use GIMP"
23:30:13  <KenjiE20> :P
23:30:25  <narc> My mother's been learning how to use it, tho.
23:30:28  <Plimmer> It's like stabbing yourself in the leg using that program.
23:30:49  <KenjiE20> it's not god awful, and I'd rather it over PS CS3 for what I do
23:31:07  <Plimmer> I'd rather use paint than gimp
23:31:08  <KenjiE20> which is basic crop / resize editting
23:31:15  <narc> Yah, that matters, too.
23:31:33  <KenjiE20> and transparency / formatting
23:31:48  <Plimmer> I have a hate for OpenOffice too.
23:31:55  <mensi> I kinda like MS Office 2007 with those ribbons
23:32:11  <mensi> OOo is like the ancient WordPad on speed
23:32:12  <narc> I haven't used MS Office since Office XP, I think.
23:32:19  <mensi> new features, same crap
23:32:19  <KenjiE20> ^
23:32:23  <mensi> but "works"
23:32:28  <KenjiE20> lol works
23:32:31  <narc> For the very limited use I get out of that type of stuff, OOo is enough.
23:32:32  <mensi> I prefere cool software, not software that "works"
23:32:55  <mensi> hmpf I'm typing extra vowels again
23:33:07  <Plimmer> LateX is so awesome that words dont even start to describe it.
23:33:52  <mensi> Sometimes my hands just mix in aspects of other languages in my typing
23:34:14  <mensi> LateX is a pain in the ass if you're not a pro
23:34:32  <KenjiE20> Sometimes my hands just mix in other aspects in my typing
23:34:35  <mensi> And there isn't even some single, good source of documentation
23:34:36  <KenjiE20> :D
23:34:42  <Plimmer> It takes some learning, but when that is over it just blows everything else aside.
23:35:19  <Razaekel> LaTeX is awesome
23:35:58  <mensi> to cool thing of proprietary software is that it's programmers get forced to also implement the boring stuff
23:36:09  <mensi> and write good documentation
23:36:15  <narc> Yeah, pretty much.
23:36:21  <mensi> those open source hackers tend to only do the cool stuff
23:36:40  <mensi> Not that I'm not doing the same thing ;)
23:36:52  <mensi> I only complete stuff if I'm getting paid for doing so ;)
23:39:23  <KenjiE20> "Real programmers never write their own code"
23:42:46  <narc> Mwah, I have eradicated the vile Carthaginian civilization.
23:43:11  <narc> Poor bastards never really had a chance. And they were the most advanced of the bunch.
23:44:30  <KenjiE20> haha
23:45:22  <KenjiE20> I'm always so defensive in RTS', I always get that turtle by my name by 2nd advancement in AoEII
23:45:42  <narc> Heh. Yah, I play my Civ 4 about the same.
23:46:10  <KenjiE20> Total Ann, and SupCom I always end up with imprenetrable air defense walls
23:46:14  <narc> Wait a good *long* while, be the first at technology, then boom -- run the enemy over with stealth bombers and modern armor.
23:46:35  <KenjiE20> i.e. 2/3rds pop cap at times
23:46:48  <KenjiE20> just patrolling aircraft
23:46:51  <narc> Heh.
23:47:32  <mensi> SupCom ftw!
23:47:49  <KenjiE20> the Absolute Annihilation mod was fun
23:47:55  <KenjiE20> I used to get my air wall up
23:48:02  <KenjiE20> then go for the uber range arty
23:48:16  <KenjiE20> that stuff would usually end up as veterans
23:48:32  <KenjiE20> and start aiming for enemy aircraft and hit them too ^_^
23:49:14  <KenjiE20> supcom2 looks good
23:51:18  <mensi> ?
23:51:24  <mensi> is there any material out yet?
23:51:48  <mensi> lol
23:52:16  <KenjiE20> there's a few screenies around
23:52:36  <KenjiE20>
23:52:37  <Webster> Title: VE3D Image for Supreme Commander 2 (PC) - Voodoo Extreme (at
23:53:17  <KenjiE20> less of the grey, with grey, and a slight tint of player colour
23:57:14  <mensi> you know I'm an admin over at and don't know about this stuff...
23:57:29  <mensi> .. I guess it says something about my level of activity ;)
23:58:03  <KenjiE20> lol
23:58:09  <mensi> we even have that screenshot on the frontpage news

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