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Log for #openttdcoop on 26th June 2010:
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00:14:51  *** Phazorx has quit IRC
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00:30:49  <Qanael_> Hey everyone
00:30:51  <Qanael_> !password
00:30:51  <PublicServer> Qanael_: amulet
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02:35:26  <Qanael_> !password
02:35:26  <PublicServer> Qanael_: wintry
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02:49:23  <quietus> !password
02:49:23  <PublicServer> quietus: flinch
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02:50:26  <quietus> qanael you around?
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04:32:24  <Qanael_> quietus: Now I am, but I guess you're not?
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08:34:37  <Andycow> Howdy!
08:35:43  <Henri> Hi
08:38:41  <Henri> !dl win32
08:38:41  <PublicServer> Henri: http://binaries.openttd.org/nightlies/trunk/r20001/openttd-trunk-r20001-windows-win32.zip
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08:44:12  <Henri> !password
08:44:12  <PublicServer> Henri: ferret
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10:12:42  <Andycow> Whassup, okay?
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10:18:16  <Andycow> !start
10:19:58  <Chris_Booth_> Andycow: @quickstart
10:19:58  * Andycow tickles Condac
10:20:31  <Chris_Booth_> !players
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10:20:33  <PublicServer> Chris_Booth_: There are currently no clients connected to the server
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11:00:46  <Andycow> It's you!
11:01:18  *** Z is now known as Guest1206
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11:26:10  <Andycow> Well, whatchya up to?
11:27:15  <hylje> trolling the internets
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11:56:33  <Dred_furst> Hey
11:57:14  <Dred_furst> @quickstart
11:57:16  <Webster> Quickstart - #openttdcoop Wiki - http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/Quickstart
12:06:38  <Dred_furst> !password
12:06:38  <PublicServer> Dred_furst: strove
12:09:45  *** Macha has joined #openttdcoop
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12:09:51  <Macha> !players
12:09:52  <PublicServer> Macha: There are currently no clients connected to the server
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14:53:26  <Andycow> Whassup, okay?
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15:01:47  <quietus> !password
15:01:47  <PublicServer> quietus: canary
15:03:13  <quietus> !players
15:03:15  <PublicServer> quietus: Client 386 (Orange) is quietus, in company 1 (MonkeyWasters Ltd)
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15:03:58  <Andycow> theholyduck: Moo.
15:04:52  <theholyduck> barkbark
15:05:05  <quietus> bork bork bork
15:07:43  *** Henri has joined #openttdcoop
15:08:02  <Henri> hello
15:08:19  <Henri> anyone knows why welcome stable server is down?
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15:14:23  <Ammler> Henri: it isn't
15:14:40  <quietus> damn the map download is being slow
15:14:45  <Ammler> or it is :-)
15:15:01  <quietus> probably just me
15:16:09  <PublicServer> *** quietus joined the game
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15:16:56  <quietus> !password
15:16:56  <PublicServer> quietus: homely
15:17:06  <quietus> sigh.
15:18:32  <Henri> Ammler: i would'nt ask if it was online :) , but could anyone with power make the server running again please?
15:18:57  <quietus> henri what is the welcome public
15:19:09  <Ammler> openttd doesn't allow continue a running game
15:20:12  <quietus> Ammler: what?
15:20:16  <Henri> uh
15:20:38  <Ammler> it doesn't save company passwords :-)
15:21:26  <quietus> great...
15:21:42  <quietus> so it will let you continue, but its open for anyone to get in your company
15:22:49  <Henri> better maybe new map?
15:22:57  *** PeterT|tor has joined #openttdcoop
15:23:04  <Henri> since most people were waiting for new map anyway
15:23:32  <PublicServer> *** quietus joined the game
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15:24:10  <quietus> is it jus me or is this happening to everyone
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15:24:30  <Andycow> Heya.
15:24:51  <Henri> !password
15:24:52  <PublicServer> Henri: grooms
15:25:06  <PublicServer> *** Henri joined the game
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15:25:37  <Henri> quietus: no problem for me with throwing out
15:26:09  <quietus> housemates must be torrenting.
15:27:40  <Henri> but well, could please someone put new map to welcome stable server, because company passwords lost and long time noone playing.
15:28:03  <PublicServer> *** Henri has left the game (leaving)
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15:37:20  <quietus> does the welcome server have a hostname?
15:37:33  <quietus> that i can use to get autoupdate to work on it
15:49:36  <quietus> !stable
15:49:55  <quietus> !help
15:49:55  <PublicServer> quietus: http://www.openttdcoop.org/wiki/IRC_Commands
15:50:21  <quietus> !ip
15:50:21  <PublicServer> quietus: ps.openttdcoop.org
15:50:24  <Henri> the server is up with new map btw
15:50:33  <Henri> oh and ammler: thank you:)
15:50:42  <quietus> i noticed, im just trying to get autoupdate to work with it
15:51:12  <Ammler> quietus: use testing
15:51:20  <Ammler> as we also update with RCs
15:51:51  <quietus> so Lat Stable (including Pre stable)
15:51:57  <Ammler> yep
15:53:53  <quietus> i suppose clearing company passwords on reload was done for single player reasons, so you dont forget old passwords, or continue playing offline
15:57:29  <quietus> nope im not allowed to play on stable either
15:57:32  <quietus> definatly my end
15:58:29  <quietus> !servers
15:58:34  <quietus> servers
16:12:16  <planetmaker> [17:57]	<quietus>	nope im not allowed to play on stable either <-- ?
16:14:27  *** Chris_Booth has quit IRC
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16:17:13  <Andycow> Heya.
16:17:22  <Macha> !players
16:17:24  <PublicServer> Macha: There are currently no clients connected to the server
16:17:25  <Macha> Hi
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16:18:00  <Andycow> Hi Bob!
16:18:47  <Macha> !password
16:18:47  <PublicServer> Macha: resale
16:18:58  <PublicServer> *** Macha joined the game
16:21:34  <PublicServer> *** Macha has left the game (leaving)
16:21:41  <PublicServer> ***  made screenshot at 00000000: http://ps.openttdcoop.org/public/webcam/00000000.png
16:22:37  <olleman> \o :)
16:23:01  <Macha> Hmm. Gedborough Bay seems to have stopped growing.
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16:30:42  <quietus> planetmaker: my net connection has the shits and keeps dissconnecting from ottd servers
16:31:47  <olleman> what's a good way to milk a city, ie make it grow?
16:32:16  <Macha> olleman: Loads of passengers getting transported
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16:34:19  <quietus> how is this screenshot possible?
16:34:20  <quietus> http://blog.openttdcoop.org/files/pictures/new_terminus_station_advanced.png
16:36:01  <uliko> !grf
16:36:02  <PublicServer> uliko: http://www.openttdcoop.org/wiki/GRF (Version 7.3)
16:37:24  <quietus> i cant get my head around the bridges/tunnels it looks like track is going through the bridge
16:39:58  <quietus> i think its because the sloped track is propped up without changing the terrain, is it a certain grf that does that?
16:45:58  <uliko> its just a bridge over a tunnel entrence, nothing special or any extra grfs
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16:46:51  <uliko> the signals being in front of the bridges is what makes it look odd
16:49:46  <olleman> thanks Macha
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16:55:57  <PeterT> "shall we move our IRC chat to twitter completely? (Ammler)" <-- eh, what?
16:58:17  <quietus> mybad, didnt realize bridges could be made on flat ground, thought you had to have terrain to match it
17:04:12  <De_Ghosty> !date
17:04:12  <PublicServer> De_Ghosty: 12 Aug 2360
17:04:20  <De_Ghosty> still the same pax game?
17:04:23  <De_Ghosty> pax game never ends
17:04:23  <De_Ghosty> lol
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17:20:41  <Andycow> wb fonsinchen
17:20:50  <fonsinchen> hi
17:22:10  <fonsinchen> I have to leave again, though ...
17:22:13  <fonsinchen> bye
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18:06:57  <Andycow> So?  chris11: Heeyyyyyyyyy!
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18:25:01  <Andycow> Heeyyyyyyyyy!
18:25:08  <Macha> !players
18:25:09  <PublicServer> Macha: There are currently no clients connected to the server
18:25:17  <Macha> Hmm, damn timezones
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18:30:20  <Macha> Not that there is much to do, but...
18:48:22  *** Macha has quit IRC
19:02:30  <Ammler> maybe someone should prepare next game :-)
19:19:19  <BloodyRain2k> how about a brainstorming game about overflow depots? XD
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19:31:32  <Phazorx> i sugges another pax game with randomized net based on  MSRN
19:33:06  <Phazorx> enterable depots are generaly bad and srnw/msrn are the only possible use for them w/o disrupting whole net
19:33:26  <Vitus> What about station overflows?
19:35:18  <Phazorx> especially these
19:35:40  <Phazorx> overflow means you are either already have too muich trains there or are about to make some
19:35:44  <Phazorx> and in general there should be none
19:35:59  <Phazorx> since their are bound to be piling up somewhere
19:36:07  <Phazorx> either before station or somewhere esle
19:36:43  <Vitus> Hmmm, but what about industries pickup, which production fluctates a lot (like some secondary industry)
19:37:01  <Phazorx> waiting buffer in terms of a queue i fin
19:37:14  <Phazorx> like 1 TL buffer before few platforms
19:37:22  <Phazorx> or few estra platforms
19:37:24  <Phazorx> that is ual
19:37:26  <Phazorx> usual
19:37:33  <Vitus> I don't see how it is different from building overflow depot
19:37:49  <Phazorx> overflow depot is much slower construction
19:38:11  <Phazorx> and it lets you get away with 100 extra trains where you need 10
19:38:21  <Phazorx> while 1 train queue does not
19:38:54  <Vitus> People piling trains in overflow depot is another thing, imho
19:39:04  <Phazorx> one leads to another
19:39:23  <Phazorx> a while ago i was doing something funky
19:39:37  <Phazorx> i was taking a PS save game after we consider it done
19:39:59  <Phazorx> and were removing extra trains
19:40:16  <Phazorx> in ost cases sacrificing ~20% trains would yield more early traffic
19:40:21  <Phazorx> w/o any constructions done
19:40:38  <Phazorx> now we are closer to 40% extra
19:40:55  <Phazorx> meaning we ar slacking big time at estimating how many trains we actually need
19:41:04  <Phazorx> and saturating game long before it should been
19:41:36  <Phazorx> with unneeded additional trains which do eat CPU but bring no joy to cooper's mind
19:41:59  <Vitus> Yes, yes, but it's people who do it. In ideal world, where stations have just enough trains to accomodate ~2100 items/month production, overflow cannot be bad thing
19:42:24  <Phazorx> an industry can produce up to 2144 items
19:42:30  <Phazorx> and in thatc ase it could only be coal
19:42:52  <Phazorx> that is very extreme case an should be dealt with in "special" fashion
19:43:00  <Vitus> Hmmm, maybe.
19:43:01  <welterde> ah... new game ahead.... ;-)
19:43:02  <Phazorx> however many stations nowadayas have more than that
19:43:15  <Phazorx> but it is achieved by ugly stationwalking which we should not do
19:43:31  <Phazorx> and have nothing to do with neccesity
19:43:52  <Vitus> But I mean, that if you have industry with 2000+ production, every change in its production is big enough to change greatly the number of trains, which are needed to service it
19:43:52  <Phazorx> all i am saying - we got lazier with time and overflow concepts just help us be lazt
19:43:55  <Phazorx> *lazy
19:44:14  <Phazorx> 2000+ is not normal if it is a primary
19:44:27  <Vitus> Why not?
19:44:33  <Phazorx> and if it is secondary - we have many techniques to deal with that which dont require overflow
19:44:55  <Phazorx> vitus only way you get above 2000 per industry in reality is pax
19:45:10  <Phazorx> and in case of pax we have a whole bunch of concepts
19:45:32  <Phazorx> and pax is something that should be moved as fast as possible so trains should be loading at ny time and not waiting
19:46:10  <Phazorx> realistically overflow buffers are some kind of cheat to stop caring for a while about performance
19:46:28  <Phazorx> and imho coopers way of playing is all about performance at all aspects
19:46:53  <Phazorx> so instead of making a cheat we better come with a decent concept where trains can go where they are needed rather than wait in depots
19:49:05  <Vitus> Just a quick question about the industry: if you keep station rating above 60% (which is perfectly possible), you have ~67% chance to increase its production (in case the production change happens)... I mean, with this system it should be perfectly possible to reach 2000 items/month with long enough playtime (or servicing time, depends on how you look at it)
19:49:25  <Phazorx> 1st we play with smooth economics
19:49:25  <Andycow> Moo. Moo.
19:49:31  <Phazorx> so there is no 67% break
19:50:01  <Phazorx> second there was a hardlimit on default industries about top performance
19:50:05  <Vitus> I've taken this from wiki and yes, it was under "smooth economy"
19:50:05  * Andycow takes a nap
19:50:25  <Phazorx> depending on insutry it differns but highest one is for some coal mines which can go up to 2144/mo
19:50:54  <Phazorx> with smoth economy higher percentage means higher chance to get an increase
19:51:10  <Phazorx> and increase is between 1 and 10% as well as decrease
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19:51:27  <Phazorx> 67% just means there is twice as much chance to get an increase as a decrease
19:51:48  <Phazorx> we generaly aim for something above 65% to keep indstries growing
19:53:46  <Vitus> Yes, yes, but if (chance to increase production) > (chance to decrease production), you'll inevitably run into production limit... sooner or later
19:54:12  <Phazorx> but iit is still only on some cases can approach 2000/mo per industry type
19:54:29  <Phazorx> and 2000/mo can be dealt with 3 platforms
19:54:37  <Phazorx> and trains with tl 5-6
19:54:43  <Phazorx> tht rally si not much at all
19:54:54  <Phazorx> and doesnot require any buffering
19:56:36  <Phazorx> and even more
19:56:57  <Phazorx> a single lane SL can deal with up to 6-7 fast platfroms in general
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19:57:32  <Phazorx> so if you get to the point of needing more than 3 platforms per station you should start considering load on SL as well
19:57:52  <Phazorx> and in most cases if you need more han 3 you are better of spreading load between multiple SLs
19:58:27  <Phazorx> or that SL is in danger of becoming overloaded or only function as a ML leg serving single station
19:59:31  <Phazorx> any buffering only hides that issue from being visible but in no way prevents or deal with it btw
20:01:25  <Vitus> Just to get to your previous point: maximum industry production is 2550
20:01:30  <Vitus> And that is case of forest
20:01:36  <Phazorx> well things do change
20:01:41  <Phazorx> used to be coal mine
20:01:47  <Phazorx> and it is determined by grfs
20:02:07  <Phazorx> PBI and ECS do change that a lot
20:02:18  <Phazorx> as well as opengrf it seems
20:02:44  <Phazorx> still 2000 seems like a viable "target" for most industries
20:02:46  <Vitus> According to wiki, industry produces some base value of cargo (up to 255) and this happes 8-9 times a month (depending on the month itself), forest is exception, because its production callback happes 10 times a month
20:02:50  <Vitus> 10*255 = 2550
20:02:59  <Vitus> Tested directly in game, so yes
20:03:10  <Phazorx> well "up to 255" is a tricky part
20:03:21  <Phazorx> depending on industry max possible production is capped
20:03:52  <Phazorx> it used to be capped at 240 for coal mine
20:03:59  <Phazorx> so 2144 is 9*240
20:04:23  <Phazorx> and forests were 192 and 220 depending on type of climate
20:04:49  <Phazorx> mind you, things DO change and i been away from design angle on these things for a while
20:04:55  <Phazorx> still 255 is a hard limit
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20:05:17  <Phazorx> and that giwes you on avergae a 2168 max
20:05:30  <Phazorx> 255*8.5 :)
20:05:42  <OwenS> Incidentally, having two stations near an industry means you get 100% of the cargo
20:05:55  <Phazorx> owen only if they are of differnt types
20:06:03  <Phazorx> same type station still can miss cargo
20:06:20  <OwenS> Whats the reason for that?
20:06:29  <Phazorx> bad coding i guess :)
20:06:38  <Phazorx> that goes all the way back to Mr Sawyer :)
20:06:51  <Vitus> I'll try to get industry to its max production, give me a while :)
20:07:05  <OwenS> Phazorx: The only thing that I can think of is that theres a maximum intake per tile (iirc)
20:07:32  <Phazorx> OwenS: in most cases there is only one tile per industry that actualy has defined production
20:07:35  <Phazorx> so that doesnt matter
20:07:46  <Phazorx> wither that tile is in catchment area of a station
20:07:49  <Phazorx> and you get all
20:07:53  <Phazorx> or you get none
20:08:25  <Phazorx> but different stations say a lorry and a railways station are processed at different times
20:09:28  <Phazorx> so there are 2 "collect events" that can claim produced cargo instead of 1
20:09:49  <Phazorx> and in that case cargo does not get to expire before second colelct from same type of station
20:10:29  <Ammler> !info
20:10:29  <PublicServer> Ammler: #:1(Orange) Company Name: 'MonkeyWasters Ltd'  Year Founded: 1950  Money: 59925301613  Loan: 0  Value: 59932561449  (T:861, R:1000, P:2, S:50) unprotected
20:10:44  <Ammler> @stage finish current game and prepare next game
20:10:44  *** Webster changes topic to "Welcome to #openttdcoop, the Cooperative OpenTTD | PSG #187 (r20001) | STAGE: finish current game and prepare next game | www.openttdcoop.org | New players, use @quickstart and !help | Screenshots: http://img.openttdcoop.org | Coopetition ladder: http://mz.openttdcoop.org/ladder | Welcome to the depths of insanity | create a wiki userpage"
20:11:04  <Ammler> !playercount
20:11:04  <PublicServer> Ammler: Number of players: 0
20:11:37  <OwenS> Phazorx: OK, so you need two stations, and each needs a truck and a train station :p
20:11:37  <Phazorx> Ammler and XeryusTC in contrast to me actually have done some grf coding so they might be able to provide more detailed info on the subject :)
20:11:57  <Phazorx> owen can be one station and truck just offloading to that station
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20:12:03  <Ammler> I didn't read your conversation
20:12:19  <Phazorx> ammeer i debunk idea of overflow buffers :)
20:16:19  <Vitus> Fine, got 40 years since I bulit that forest and I'm at 459 tones a month production
20:19:28  <yorick> hmm I just got someone looking for mark
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20:24:07  <Phazorx> vitus is the forest being serviced at all?
20:24:40  <Vitus> Yes, station rating about 94%
20:25:00  <Phazorx> nice
20:26:33  <Vitus> But if the wiki is right (i.e. 4.5% chance to change its production every month), it could take a while to build the production high enough
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20:27:51  <Vitus> And now it jumped from 400 to 900 in like 4 months :D
20:30:50  <Vitus> 1809
20:31:01  <Vitus> in 97 years
20:31:43  <Vitus> 2097 in 99 years
20:32:04  <Vitus> Here we go, 2286 in 100 years. So it shouldn't be impossible
20:32:34  <Vitus> 2550 in 102 years, and that's maximum :)
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21:48:30  <Andycow> wb mixrin
21:48:39  <mixrin> oh hai
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22:32:07  <olleman> !password
22:32:07  <PublicServer> olleman: minnow
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