Log for #openttdcoop on 26th April 2011:
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00:45:21  <elecRules> @eightball is there anyone in game at the moment?
00:45:21  <Webster> elecRules: Maybe...
00:45:27  <elecRules> !players
00:45:30  <PublicServer> elecRules: Client 71 (Orange) is Mazur, in company 1 (Campbell & Co.)
00:45:39  <elecRules> hi Mazur
00:45:45  <PublicServer> <Mazur> Lo.
00:46:09  <elecRules> what time zone are you in
00:46:15  <PublicServer> *** elecRules has left the game (general error)
00:46:15  <PublicServer> *** Game still paused (number of players)
00:46:15  <PublicServer> <Mazur> MET DST
00:46:24  <PublicServer> <Mazur> CET DST, if you wish.
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00:49:09  <Sylf> !password
00:49:09  <PublicServer> Sylf: cooped
00:49:20  <Sylf> perfect password :)
00:49:20  <PublicServer> *** Game still paused (number of players)
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00:49:30  <PublicServer> <Mazur> Nice.
00:52:43  <Sylf> I need to enable the in-game chat again
00:52:47  <PublicServer> *** Sylf has left the game (connection lost)
00:52:47  <PublicServer> *** Game paused (number of players)
00:53:12  <Sylf> !password
00:53:12  <PublicServer> Sylf: cooped
00:53:21  <PublicServer> *** Game still paused (number of players)
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00:53:24  <PublicServer> *** Sylf joined the game
00:53:31  <PublicServer> <Mazur> That mnight bea little more  convenient for you.
00:53:33  <PublicServer> <Sylf> So, the ML is at least 4x3 now?
00:53:47  <PublicServer> <Sylf> and 4x4 for about half of the circle
00:53:59  <PublicServer> <Mazur> Something like that.
00:54:17  <PublicServer> <Sylf> and almost 1500 trains O_O
00:55:06  <PublicServer> ***  made screenshot at 00014A2E:
00:57:58  <PublicServer> <Sylf> SLH5 is so big now
00:58:48  <PublicServer> <Sylf> wow, so is MSH 3
01:03:14  <PublicServer> <Sylf> in SLH5, I don't see exit from south to west, from the 3rd line
01:03:56  <PublicServer> <Sylf> line 1 (inner most line) has 2 exits though
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01:06:48  <PublicServer> <Sylf> let me see what I can do...
01:10:06  <PublicServer> ***  made screenshot at 0002FA55:
01:14:45  <PublicServer> <Sylf> I think that's gonna be it for my contribution tonight
01:15:28  <PublicServer> <Sylf> the network looks pretty impressive to me
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01:25:06  <PublicServer> ***  made screenshot at 0003A4D8:
01:29:48  <PublicServer> *** Sylf has left the game (leaving)
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01:40:07  <PublicServer> ***  made screenshot at 00015A2F:
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02:52:46  *** sets mode: +ooo V453000 XeryusTC uliko
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06:39:11  <LittleMikey> !download
06:39:11  <PublicServer> LittleMikey: !download autostart|autottd|lin|lin64|osx|ottdau|win32|win64|win9x
06:39:11  <PublicServer> LittleMikey:
06:39:21  <LittleMikey> !download autostart
06:39:21  <PublicServer> LittleMikey:
06:41:41  <LittleMikey> !password
06:41:41  <PublicServer> LittleMikey: nectar
06:41:57  <PublicServer> *** Game still paused (number of players)
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07:16:58  <V453000> !password
07:16:58  <PublicServer> V453000: nectar
07:17:18  <PublicServer> *** V453000 joined the game
07:17:19  <PublicServer> *** Game still paused (number of players)
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07:17:54  <PublicServer> <V453000> hi
07:18:00  <PublicServer> <LittleMikey> G'day
07:25:07  <PublicServer> ***  made screenshot at 00005529:
07:40:07  <PublicServer> ***  made screenshot at 0000DA8B:
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08:06:02  <PublicServer> *** V453000 has left the game (connection lost)
08:06:03  <PublicServer> *** Game paused (number of players)
08:06:08  <V453000> cya
08:06:41  <LittleMikey> Bye :D
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09:32:55  <Sedontane> hi
09:33:30  <V453000> hello
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09:58:27  <Sedontane> !players
09:58:30  <PublicServer> Sedontane: Client 105 (Orange) is Sedontane, in company 1 (Campbell & Co.)
09:58:39  <Sedontane> !password
09:58:39  <PublicServer> Sedontane: guffaw
09:58:50  <PublicServer> *** Game still paused (number of players)
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10:03:47  <Sedontane> game looks interesting V453000
10:04:20  <Sedontane> so trains get refitted, do something else, refitted the return to raw industry?
10:06:07  <TWerkhoven> primary resource -> drop off, refit to next cargo (goods or food usually) -> load new cargo and drop off at town -> refit back to primary cargo and return to first station
10:06:40  <TWerkhoven> with some extra orders so that a train refits back to primary cargo straight away if theres little or no goods/food loaded
10:07:38  <Sedontane> intriguing
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10:10:35  <TWerkhoven> !password
10:10:36  <PublicServer> TWerkhoven: menial
10:10:50  <PublicServer> *** Game still paused (number of players)
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10:11:16  <PublicServer> <Sedontane> i guess they increased the playercount
10:11:34  <PublicServer> *** T. Werkhoven has joined company #1
10:11:34  <PublicServer> *** Game unpaused (number of players)
10:15:46  <PublicServer> <T. Werkhoven> :)
10:16:34  <PublicServer> <Sedontane> oops degfault chat setting wrong
10:17:00  <PublicServer> <Sedontane> wow this is . . . laggy
10:17:26  <PublicServer> <T. Werkhoven> a tad
10:17:26  <PublicServer> <Sedontane> 1500 trains, thats a lot of trains
10:20:24  <PublicServer> <T. Werkhoven> and still plenty more to connect
10:20:46  <PublicServer> *** Sedontane has left the game (leaving)
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10:21:02  <Sedontane> my computer cant keep up
10:21:13  <PublicServer> *** T. Werkhoven has joined spectators
10:22:16  <TWerkhoven> ouch
10:25:01  <TWerkhoven> what cpu have you got
10:25:02  <TWerkhoven> ?
10:32:26  <planetmaker> 1.5k trains is a lot. My machine was at 90% yesterday... and that was less trains ;-)
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10:49:48  <TWerkhoven> and to think that the orignal would run on a 486 (with a lot lower limits admittedly)
10:53:56  <planetmaker> the original had 256^2 map, no path signals, no one-way signals, no auto-rail, no newgrfs, no network play, no online content, no trams, ...
10:54:07  <TWerkhoven> yup
10:54:48  <TWerkhoven> max 4 platforms, max 5 lengts, no adjoining stations (no station spread)
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10:59:03  <planetmaker> some airports missing, no aqueducts, no (or much less) hotkeys. And most of all: No native support for your OS
10:59:14  <planetmaker> TTD(Patch) crashes on all my machines
11:00:00  <planetmaker> oh, and yes, the money underflow bug: make sufficient loss and get positive money. Make too much money and get a giant negative bank account
11:00:37  * TWerkhoven remembers all that
11:03:00  * TWerkhoven prefers the new stuff, even if it means his lappy can't manage more than a 3-400 trains
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11:05:36  <planetmaker> hm
11:05:51  <planetmaker> bye bye PublicServer
11:06:11  <hylje> i'd like to have distributed, nondeterministic network games for truly massive openttd
11:06:35  <planetmaker> what defines 'non-deterministic'?
11:06:52  <planetmaker> the random function is used a lot in the game code
11:07:03  <hylje> client games don't know full game state so they have to deal with their expectations changing as the game proceeds
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11:08:14  <hylje> say, client expects a train goes that way, server (or other authoritative node) thinks it goes the other way, later sync forces the client to update the train's route afterwards
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11:08:30  <planetmaker> what's fun in it?
11:08:51  <planetmaker> it leads to an un-playable game as you react to things which are not real
11:09:14  <planetmaker> you could then as well display a black map and have the player act on guessing completely
11:09:19  <hylje> ridiculous
11:09:43  <planetmaker> that's what you ask for
11:09:46  <hylje> false predictions happen, but unless the game is especially crafted to confuse the predictions and there's high latency to boot, it's not too noticeable
11:10:10  <planetmaker> false predictions happen as soon another player changes the track. Your client would not know. The more players the more likely
11:10:53  <planetmaker> Thus either your client knows the state of the displayed part at least 100% all the time, or the player will react to phantom stuff.
11:11:25  <planetmaker> And pathfinding as is done now requires 100% knowledge of the total track layout
11:11:39  <planetmaker> and 100% knowledge of the other vehicles everywhere, too
11:12:16  <hylje> let's say someone deliberately waits until a train passes before changing track layout to confuse other clients, it's one effective latency roundtrip (a few, at most a few tens of milliseconds) later nobody notices it
11:12:59  <planetmaker> which changes the reservation state, the track chosen, the level crossing closed, the vehicle stopped, the tile not free, thus not accessible for building...
11:13:13  <hylje> for a second or so, given ridiculously high latency
11:13:13  <planetmaker> and you do notice 100msecs
11:13:47  <hylje> you're more likely more annoyed at the other player messing up with your design than the game being slightly imprecise
11:14:41  <planetmaker> it's not that the other player does that delibarately. Just assume he places a track of his company where you also place one. You think, you win, he thinks, he wins, trains go accordingly, one is thrown back to 'nothing happend'
11:14:45  <planetmaker> Very ill-designed that way
11:15:46  <hylje> all that under a second
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11:16:46  <hylje> you're likely seeing the other player's building before you bump into his stuff
11:16:56  <planetmaker> @calc 1000/30
11:16:56  <Webster> planetmaker: 33.3333333333
11:17:03  <planetmaker> ^ that's the frame rate of OpenTTD
11:17:40  <planetmaker> so if the latency is larger than that (including, sending, receiving and (re-calculating), your stuff will jump happily around.
11:17:46  <planetmaker> Which is about uber-annoying
11:18:00  <planetmaker> flickering screens etc.
11:18:11  <planetmaker> you might be happy with it. 99.9% won't, I'm sure
11:18:30  <hylje> jump around in what way?
11:18:57  <planetmaker> trains positions, things not being built. etc
11:19:33  <hylje> train positions
11:19:49  <hylje> *can* jump, but only if predictions are consistently off from what really happens
11:20:06  <planetmaker> they will
11:20:21  <planetmaker> as pf prediction is not accurate
11:20:32  <planetmaker> only if you know everything it will be accurate
11:20:46  <hylje> i would imagine the authoritative node would tell what way it expects trains to go
11:21:29  <planetmaker> but then you need really stupid clients which are constantly, each frame, fed with a stream of positional update information
11:21:43  <planetmaker> of every change of the map
11:21:52  <hylje> of every change their viewport sees
11:22:04  <planetmaker> which is funny if you scroll
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11:22:36  <hylje> you can deliberately scroll really far and fast and get google maps esque checkerboard, of course, but at least you have maps you can scroll that far
11:23:10  <planetmaker> and you can zoom-out. Which then requires you to get an update of large, if not all parts of the map ;-)
11:24:09  <hylje> at which case the server can serve less precise details since you don't really see beyond them
11:24:50  <planetmaker> @calc 1000000 / 256
11:24:50  <Webster> planetmaker: 3906.25
11:26:56  <planetmaker> @calc 1000 * (32+16) + 4000 * (32+8*7) + 100 * (16 + 16)
11:26:56  <Webster> planetmaker: 403200
11:27:17  <planetmaker> well, you'd need 400kbit downstream ;-)
11:27:23  <planetmaker> for a 2k^2 map
11:27:41  <planetmaker> thus the server needs 400kbit * # clients of upstream capacity
11:28:11  <hylje> is that the data needed to transfer the full state of all tiles of a 2k*2k map?
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11:29:05  <planetmaker> no. Just the updates of 1000 vehicles moving, the tiles being changed (which is #tiles / 256) and some data of industries / towns /... changing
11:29:13  <planetmaker> quite less than a map ;-)
11:29:41  <planetmaker> you might compress it, but that doesn't give you an order of magnitude
11:30:30  <planetmaker> and I considered that no information is transmitted, if nothing changed, thus only 4000 tiles change state instead of 16k per tick
11:30:38  <planetmaker> hm... actually, the data rate is 33 times as high
11:30:45  <planetmaker> that is the data per tick
11:31:58  <hylje> can you even see individual tiles at a zoom level containing all of 2k*2k tiles in their glory?
11:32:57  <hylje> besides i do think it's reasonable to have less frequent updates at a distant zoom
11:33:41  <planetmaker> well, if you don't you still need to transfer those data at some point, if the client zooms in, moves, etc. You don't save anything. Maybe not transfering all changes but only the viewport changes gives you again a factor 10. Which is what I forgot with the factor 33 for the tick length. Thus 400k continuous downstream
11:34:00  <planetmaker> Compared to todays 2.2kbit
11:34:15  <planetmaker> Especially servers won't like that. Thus you can have less clients than now
11:35:21  <planetmaker> @calc 100000000 / 400000
11:35:21  <Webster> planetmaker: 250
11:35:43  <planetmaker> for a 100Mbit connection from a dedicated server. No other connections
11:35:51  <planetmaker> nor traffic
11:36:28  <planetmaker> @calc 2000000000000 / 100000000
11:36:28  <Webster> planetmaker: 20000
11:36:31  <planetmaker> @calc 2000000000000 / 100000000 * 8
11:36:31  <Webster> planetmaker: 160000
11:36:35  <planetmaker> @calc 2000000000000 / 100000000 * 8 / 3600
11:36:35  <Webster> planetmaker: 44.4444444444
11:36:54  <planetmaker> thus we could do that 44 hours, then we'd be stuck with 10Mbit on our server ;-)
11:37:02  <planetmaker> which means 25 clients :-P
11:37:28  <hylje> well, i can't retort since i haven't actually designed a streaming protocol especially for openttd
11:38:04  <hylje> but there's bound to be good tradeoffs to have good perceived latency by dropping the data the client doesn't actually need and only fetch it as needed
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11:40:14  <planetmaker> even 40k instead of 400k is... a lot for servers
11:40:42  <hylje> 40k is a lot of data for a specialized client that can fill in
11:40:49  <planetmaker> but it could only finally be judged, if someone completely re-wrote the client-server architecture
11:40:51  <hylje> more difficult is having reasonable pathfinding and that thing without global state
11:41:11  <planetmaker> the client can't do PF. You'll have to have the server do that
11:41:30  <hylje> client can have a good guess at the pf
11:41:33  <planetmaker> and you'll need to provide update info then on the vehicles. Possibly in digested form for those not currently visible
11:42:17  <hylje> for instance vehicle cargo data is only relevant if it affects visuals
11:42:25  <planetmaker> Doing such prediction is something to consider when actually the way network playing works has been changed to a true client-server architecture instead of 'just' a server which distributes commands
11:42:58  <planetmaker> hylje, I only added positional change and vehicleID in the calculation. No other vehicle changes ;-)
11:43:35  <hylje> yea, but even a dumb pathfinder that just expects trains go forward until a fork at which point it defers to the guess the server gave it
11:43:41  <planetmaker> 16 bit per coordinate, 16 bit for the vehicleID
11:44:02  <hylje> can reduce the needed update data drastically
11:44:06  <planetmaker> that might, with a bit bit-scraping include direction
11:44:41  <planetmaker> a ship hits a node every tile ;-)
11:45:39  <planetmaker> however... all this means re-writing the game from scratch ;-)
11:45:47  <planetmaker> mostly
11:45:48  <hylje> more or less
11:48:41  <hylje> particularly the client part of the game engine might well be scrapped entirely, but the server core may not need any changes at all
11:49:06  <hylje> well, just methods to get subsets of data as needed for the client view to look at
11:51:06  <hylje> and maybe some kind of events the server can proactively tell the client about, such as when two people attempt to build the same tile
11:51:45  <planetmaker> just as now, commands only become effective when acknowledged by the server. That could be kept
11:52:45  <planetmaker> that already is needed now
11:53:25  <hylje> i would think current-style netcode can happily coexist with nondeterministic client code
11:55:00  <planetmaker> not quite. You'll need to re-write the whole packet part and handling thereof
11:55:57  <hylje> unless one implements the data view code beside the current netcode
11:59:26  <hylje> a crafty person would screw overhead and do it in http
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12:15:05  <Sedontane> sounds like you guys rehashed the whole network based play system while I was AFK
12:15:46  <Sedontane> and to TWerkhoven I have Dual(2 Physical chips not dual core) Xeon 2.8Ghz
12:15:50  <planetmaker> nothing like that was done
12:16:00  <Sedontane> but the ram of 1Ghz 600Mhz lets it down
12:16:38  <Sedontane> How are you planetmaker, not seen you in a while
12:16:44  <TWerkhoven> ah
12:16:46  <planetmaker> 2.8GHz should suffice. The number of cores is nearly irrelevant, the RAM speed.... might play a role. And so didn't I see you :-)
12:17:33  <Sedontane> this computer just seems slow, dunno what it is, cant wait to get back to my machine in the UK
12:19:25  <Sedontane> Im in Munich at the moment, so im using a work machine to run TTD, mabye it is because of network latency but the trains were jerkibng something chronic, could barely move my mouse
12:20:05  <Sedontane> you guys run any more OSQCs?
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12:24:06  <planetmaker> qsqc hasn't been really continued. Sadly
12:24:17  <planetmaker> *osqc
12:25:55  <Sedontane> indeed, that was great fun
12:28:13  <V453000> making maps for it takes a lot of effort though :)
12:30:08  <Sedontane>  true
12:30:30  <V453000> to be honest, I have tried something, but the problem is the idea - what shall be the topic :|
12:31:10  <V453000> stuffing something in some limited space is a whole lot of fun, but having it there multiple times is kind of ... repetitive
12:31:22  <Sedontane> mmhmm
12:31:32  <planetmaker> well... it needs a special setup, so that different solutions can be compared :-)
12:31:35  <V453000> it certainly could be like a main topic for all of the osqcs, but hm :) I didnt feel like that is the case
12:31:44  <planetmaker> ^^
12:31:47  <V453000> and that is the other problem ;)
12:32:21  <Sedontane> maybe something to do with efficiency and good usage of multiple systems so placing vehicle limits could be an idea
12:32:26  <planetmaker> maybe it should. And the other 'problem' actually is the judgement part. That took WAAAY too long last time. And it took WAAAY too much of my time to do that properly and fair
12:32:44  <V453000> :)
12:33:51  <Sedontane> yeah judgement is probably the worst bit, but maybe set arbitrary conditions for determining comp order then have special mentions for good innovation . . . etc.
12:34:50  <planetmaker> well, yes :-) That's what we did ;-)
12:35:59  <Sedontane> well it worked well
12:36:21  <Sedontane> im still annoyed at myself for not using a standard distro for my entry
12:39:09  <Sedontane> Whats the purpose of SRNWs?
12:39:20  <Sedontane> SRNW stations
12:40:45  <V453000> you dont need to mess with orders
12:41:00  <V453000> automatized network, briefly
12:42:13  * TWerkhoven can see V suggesting a snrw game after the current one
12:42:54  <planetmaker> Sedontane, I guess it doesn't matter too much. anymore :-)
12:43:23  <planetmaker> But yes... such competitions can only use non-patched game versions, or it won't stay compatible and comparable
12:43:45  <planetmaker> I guess I learnt about that part of the game a lot since osqc. Back then I didn't even know about gamelog
12:43:55  <planetmaker> or hardly
12:44:01  <Sedontane> gamelog?
12:44:23  <planetmaker> :-) The means to check what was changed from the original settings since map creation
12:45:11  <planetmaker> thus means to detect cheating by changing settings back and forth
12:45:23  <planetmaker> or adding / removing newgrfs
12:45:29  <V453000> I added black! :)
12:46:03  <planetmaker> that's inacceptable ;-)
12:46:10  <Sedontane> black?
12:46:38  <V453000> new company colour :p
12:47:10  <V453000> pm: I also didnt compete :p I just played it a while later because the scenario was just fun :)
12:47:17  <Sedontane> didnt we always use orange back in the day?
12:47:19  <planetmaker> I know :-)
12:47:43  <planetmaker> V453000, I can't tell all names, but I know you didn't. I'll remember when I see the name(s)
12:48:18  <V453000> sure, that wasnt the poitn anyway :P
12:48:24  <planetmaker> ;-)
12:52:14  <Sedontane> done any SML stuff lately?
12:52:28  <Sedontane> I tried to do one in a game on my own, but its daunting
12:53:40  <V453000> SML is an awesome idea, but totally boring to lpay
12:53:42  <V453000> play
12:54:14  <V453000> last SML game was pzg13
12:54:58  <V453000> @pzg13
12:54:58  <Webster> ProZone Game 13: Timed (aka insane) SML at #openttdcoop -
12:55:09  <V453000> there :)
12:58:08  <V453000> on PS it might be ...psg176 I think
12:58:27  <V453000> 172 was the start of the failsafe shifters
12:59:14  <planetmaker> quite a time ago ;-)
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13:00:15  <V453000> for a reason :)
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13:07:25  <^Spike^> the reason: Spike wasn't around cause he likes SML? :)
13:08:47  <V453000> the reason: people know SML is nothing but slave labour without using brain
13:08:57  <V453000> ;(
13:09:26  <^Spike^> .... :)
13:09:37  <^Spike^> we'll see what we can do when i'm done with graduatin? :)
13:11:05  <^Spike^> and it's not just slave labour :)
13:12:03  <Mazur> Slave reporting for labour.
13:12:06  * Mazur .
13:12:44  <planetmaker> cool. I have a cellar room which needs a clean-up. Will you do that, please?
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13:13:05  * ^Spike^ goes back to writing report and letting server do tests...
13:13:11  <^Spike^> the last part is like watching paint dry....
13:13:18  <Mazur> OTTD slave, not idiot-slave.
13:13:28  <planetmaker> :-(
13:14:54  <TWerkhoven> lol
13:14:56  <^Spike^> hehe
13:15:06  <^Spike^> pm not everyone wants to be your personal slave ;)
13:16:18  <planetmaker> But they should!
13:16:29  <^Spike^> ......
13:16:34  <planetmaker> they don't know what they miss >:-)
13:16:37  <TWerkhoven> can i use dynamite to clear it?
13:16:45  <^Spike^> nothing? :)
13:16:48  <TWerkhoven> or a flamethrower?
13:16:58  * Mazur has quite independant ideas on what he "should" or "should not".
13:17:05  <^Spike^> i would go with C4 personally
13:17:17  <^Spike^> bigger boom...
13:17:18  <^Spike^> :)
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13:17:21  <TWerkhoven> hehe
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13:20:43  <Chris_Booth> !password
13:20:43  <PublicServer> Chris_Booth: menial
13:20:52  <PublicServer> *** Game still paused (number of players)
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13:24:39  <Sedontane> cya later guys
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15:20:41  <ali> hello
15:20:44  <ali> any here?
15:21:33  <hylje> yes
15:23:11  <ali> where can find japanese Train Set v2 beta3    tnx if any can help me whit link
15:24:02  <planetmaker> bananas
15:24:27  <planetmaker> iirc at least
15:27:51  <ali> in bananas not find it  :(
15:29:18  <ali> ore can i downlodad  GRFs from #openttdcoop's GRF pack version 7. 3:  ?
15:29:42  <ali> in 7.3 pack have  japanese Train Set v2 beta3
15:30:41  <ali> tnx i find it
15:30:48  <ali> in grf pack coop 8.0
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16:07:09  <KenjiE20> my DwarfFortress miner just made this, I think it's going by the entrance to the meeting hall
16:07:10  <Webster> Title: Dead elves, spikes, labouring dwarves founding the #DwarfFort... on Twitpic (at
16:12:11  <hylje> i got one of my friends play dorf fort
16:12:16  <hylje> two hours and he was addicted
16:13:23  <Chris_Booth> is DwarfFort a command based game?
16:13:32  <Chris_Booth> where you type actions into a consol
16:13:40  <hylje> it's menu based
16:13:57  <KenjiE20> think rogue-like, only city management
16:14:06  <hylje> but despite the benefits of a mouse UI there's no such thing so far
16:14:07  <KenjiE20> and on a mega grand scale
16:14:14  <hylje> simcity
16:14:27  <KenjiE20> the aim for DF is world sim
16:14:32  <Chris_Booth> I loved sim city
16:14:34  <KenjiE20> cities next :)
16:14:53  <Chris_Booth> but they never got Sim City 5
16:14:55  <KenjiE20> hylje: there are some mouse bits, the military screen is entirely mouse enabled
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21:45:17  <MrD2DG> !password
21:45:17  <PublicServer> MrD2DG: voiced
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21:46:34  <TWerkhoven> eya
21:46:45  <PublicServer> <MrD2DG> Hi
21:55:09  <PublicServer> ***  made screenshot at 0003A021:
21:58:24  <TWerkhoven> gn
21:58:29  <PublicServer> <MrD2DG> BB
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