Log for #openttdcoop on 12th March 2012:
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00:10:28  *** [1]Mark has joined #openttdcoop
00:10:32  *** [1]Mark is now known as Mark
00:10:53  <Mark> hello
00:18:16  <V453000> hi :)
00:18:33  <Mark> :)
00:18:35  <Mark> howyagoing?
00:18:53  <V453000> variously :D sometimes busy sometimes bored
00:19:03  <V453000> and our current game isnt exactly succesful :d
00:19:15  <Mark> let me guess, logic? :)
00:19:44  <V453000> no, pax
00:19:58  <Mark> oh
00:20:02  <Mark> ill have a look tomorrow
00:20:07  <V453000> wanted to make 1 town over the whole map but it isnt possible, theoretical cap is at ~2.4-3 millions
00:20:24  <V453000> it gets tough as hell from ~1.5M
00:20:33  <Mark> hmm...
00:20:35  <Mark> fund some more towns?
00:21:02  <V453000> yes sure but there are also some other problems :)
00:21:12  <V453000> like my Sbahn is totally wrong and ML has low capacity :D
00:21:48  <V453000> also your RV game ended up not so well so I think we should try again soon :)
00:22:02  <Mark> shame
00:22:13  <Mark> completely forgot i wouldnt be there to play it when i started it
00:22:22  <V453000> doesnt matter, not much to do about it
00:22:32  <V453000> just was too large map, ships, and wrong RV settings
00:22:50  <V453000> if we make smaller map, no ships and RVs with original acceleration, it should be good
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00:25:24  <xav> I would love an RV game
00:25:36  <Mark> you just missed one :)
00:25:50  <xav> yeah, but I DL'd it :-)
00:27:01  <V453000> next game will be RV probably
00:27:28  <V453000> and maybe even very soon, I dont quite feel like fixing half of this map
00:27:50  <xav> At least town growth has been better defined
00:27:58  <V453000> for sure
00:28:13  <V453000> it has been fun, but it isnt really fun to fix it now I would say
00:29:00  <V453000> so in return I would plan for something like RV game 229, and 230 chaos ... chaos cant be worse than 228 and 226 :D
00:30:11  <xav> How feasible would it be to make a game with different TLs that are sorted into sidelines by TL?
00:30:26  <xav> Would that be a horrible mess?
00:30:30  <V453000> doesnt technically make sense
00:30:37  <V453000> or ... why
00:30:59  <xav> why...not? :-p
00:31:05  <xav> thinking aloud, that's all
00:33:02  <V453000> well sure but you usually use -something- to reach -something- :)
00:33:20  <V453000> like you use SRNW to reach easy servicing of large groups of same primaries
00:33:34  <V453000> or you use SML to reach trivial expandability of ML
00:33:47  <V453000> but you use various TL to .. ? :p
00:34:05  <xav> on a SNRW for different cargo types?
00:34:14  <xav> *SRNW
00:34:18  <V453000> can be done with orders
00:34:39  <V453000> @psgsave 223
00:34:39  <Webster> PSG 223 Archive entry;
00:34:42  <Mark> and pf traps
00:34:47  <Mark> would be fun to do without though
00:35:14  <xav> I thought part of the point of SRNW was to not use orders
00:35:24  <xav> at least not more than is necessary
00:36:07  <V453000> the point is to reach -something- ;)
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00:36:45  <xav> The drop, then a train cycles around trying to get to the drop again, right?
00:36:58  <xav> Hopefully by bumping into a pickup station on the way
00:37:08  <V453000> pretty much
00:37:53  <xav> So say you have a factory as the drop, and the pickups are steel and grain.
00:38:22  <V453000> how many steel pickups do you expect? :D
00:38:31  <xav> Point taken.
00:38:57  <V453000> but substitute that with livestock or somethign
00:39:23  <xav> Right - just any industry that takes two primaries.
00:39:40  <V453000> you dont even need the drop to be the same
00:39:42  <xav> At the station exit, sort the trains by TL and they'll go on their respective loop
00:39:52  <xav> Ah, exactly.
00:39:59  <xav> That's even better.
00:40:06  <V453000> now that is pointless. :) You make different TLs just to split them into different tracks
00:40:13  <V453000> why not just build 2 different tracks from the start
00:41:06  <xav> because it's cooler this way? :-p
00:41:31  <xav> Granted, it doesn't make sense with any of the current industries.
00:41:41  <V453000> idk I feel like it is cleaner to do it with orders as you dont need splitting logic that way
00:43:03  <V453000> and unfortunately orders for different cargo SRNWs would work even with psg 199-ish SRNW - order less multidrop, choose drop by where you pickup etc.
00:43:48  <V453000> so I cant really imagine a situation when would you really need the splitters
00:43:59  <V453000> sure the idea is nice but ...
00:44:33  <PublicServer> *** V453000 has left the game (leaving)
00:44:46  <Mark> oh shit my titlegame made it to the 2nd round
00:45:04  <xav> A factory a refinery and a sawmill on one drop, which is goods pickup for another set of trains
00:45:09  <V453000> yes it did Mark :)
00:45:39  <Mark> only just though
00:46:45  <V453000> xav: you can also have "fake" unreachable orders like in psg 207 for example. So trains do want to go somewhere and you have control over where they are going, but they never reach the orders so they can use it anywhere on the map without reaching a certain spot to trigger the order (unlike the standard "drop" order)
00:47:06  <V453000> not sure what you meant by the factory,refinery and sawmill though
00:47:25  <xav> I just mean one station for goods pickup; goods can be on another network
00:48:09  <V453000> doesnt even have to be
00:48:57  <V453000> if each of your train group goes to a certain waypoint which can never be reached, you can then just pf trap various paths to the waypoint to just tell trains where to go
00:49:57  <xav> Trains would go around the map and be sorted into pickups, provided those stations were also unoccupied.
00:51:18  <V453000> yes but why would you need different TLs for that
00:51:46  <xav> So a coal train doesn't go into a lumber mill
00:52:46  <V453000> coal goes to coal, wood goes to wood assigned tracks, just by going towards an unrechable wood/coal waypoint
00:52:51  <V453000> clean and easy
00:53:15  <xav> <shrug>
00:54:13  <xav> It's only to make sure every train regardless of cargotype gets only an order to go to the drop
00:54:30  <xav> which isn't something you /need/ to do, I know.
00:56:10  <V453000> as I said :) the idea is nice, but it can be solved much nicer. I like multiple train lengths too, but making splitters everywhere is .. :z
00:58:26  <xav> I guess I just want to see a multi-cargo SRNW
00:58:48  <xav> on one network
00:58:50  <V453000> that isnt a problem either
00:59:32  <V453000> on the other hand it is questionable ;) SRNW is to handle a large amount of primaries easily, by increasing the cargo types, you reduce the effectiveness of your SRNW theoretically
01:05:43  <V453000> anyway, gnight
01:05:46  <xav> night!
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02:04:27  <Rhamphoryncus> Is there a PF trap that doesn't involve reversing?  I could do a logic train I suppose.
02:09:51  <Hazzard> I have a noob question
02:10:03  <Hazzard> Why are the reversing traps necesary?
02:10:21  <Rhamphoryncus> evil.  Pure, unadulterated, evil.
02:11:06  <Rhamphoryncus> lemme log on
02:11:32  <Rhamphoryncus> !password
02:11:32  <PublicServer> Rhamphoryncus: ailing
02:11:51  <PublicServer> *** Game still paused (number of players)
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02:11:57  <Rhamphoryncus> Oh, you're not on :)
02:12:02  <Hazzard> No
02:12:08  <Hazzard> Internet too slow :(
02:13:24  <Hazzard> Are the pathfinding traps the dead ends on the Sbahns?
02:13:38  <Rhamphoryncus> Okay, the basic way the pathfinder works is it builds a graph of all the steps it can take, applies a value ("weight") to each one, and then picks one that should be best/quickest (lowest "weight")
02:14:06  <Hazzard> Yes
02:14:09  <Hazzard> Rating them
02:14:48  <Rhamphoryncus> Sorry, applies a weight to each step, but then picks a collection of steps that'll get it to its goal with the lowest weight
02:15:31  <Rhamphoryncus> In the end it doesn't care how bad the weight is, just as long as it gets there.  It has no concept of what's good for that distance
02:15:46  <Hazzard> Ok
02:17:52  <Rhamphoryncus> So.. these trains don't have any of the pickup stations on their orders.  They have no interest in going through them, and stations are a penalty (increases the weight).  However, they can reach their goal through there, so they'll do it if they have to.  This incidentally causes them to stop and load because they're not non-stop
02:18:41  <Rhamphoryncus> "If they have to" is the key bit there.  They'd much rather find a direct path that doesn't go through a station
02:19:00  <Rhamphoryncus> And we need such a path in case they don't find a station to go through
02:19:24  <Rhamphoryncus> So we need a path they can use, but not know they can use.  Thus the PF trap.
02:21:22  <Rhamphoryncus> It breaks the pathfinder, causing it to be unaware of how to get through there.  If a train does enter the trap it becomes lost and merely wanders through junctions
02:21:24  <Hazzard> Can a PF trap also be a station the inverse of that, one they think they can use but actually cannot?
02:21:34  <Hazzard> Hmm
02:22:01  <Rhamphoryncus> That's related
02:22:57  <Rhamphoryncus> The weird 3-way branch at the end of a trap is a junction, which is what the lost trains look for
02:23:27  <Rhamphoryncus> Of course they immediately run out of track, causing them to reverse.. and the pathfinder immediately kicks back in, finds a new path, and carries on as if nothing was wrong
02:23:47  <Rhamphoryncus> Now the other part of this is the use of red two-ways
02:24:43  <Rhamphoryncus> It's off by default but openttdcoop enables an openttd option that makes the pathfinder treat them as end-of-line.  Essentially that tile of track disappears when it's red
02:25:25  <Hazzard> So the trains cant stop there
02:25:50  <Hazzard> So they just go through the penalty unless there is a space
02:26:04  <Hazzard> So are the little trees actually necesarry
02:26:34  <Rhamphoryncus> Exactly.  Technically they still might under certain circumstances, but those are obscure.  Obscure means I run into them. ;)
02:26:35  <Rhamphoryncus> trees?
02:27:19  <Hazzard> 3-way branch things
02:27:30  <Hazzard> could they just be 2 way or one way?
02:27:44  <Rhamphoryncus> 3-way branch at the end of the PF trap?
02:28:54  <Hazzard> Yes
02:28:58  <Hazzard> Where they reverse at
02:29:10  <Rhamphoryncus> That's the junction they look for, yes
02:30:21  <Rhamphoryncus> I believe there's also some criteria about distance.  A lost train would rather wander all over your network than stick in a tiny loop somewhere.  I'm not sure how it works though
02:31:09  <Rhamphoryncus> Which is what I mean about "under certain circumstance".  Sometimes a train will wait at the red two-way instead, which is due to that somehow
02:32:40  <Hazzard> Okay
02:33:11  <Hazzard> Is the same concept the reason for the little branches at the ML stations?
02:34:35  <Rhamphoryncus> I'm not sure.  I didn't investigate them in great detail
02:38:47  <Hazzard> Thanks for the explanation
02:42:48  <Rhamphoryncus> np
02:42:56  <Rhamphoryncus> I'm happy I finally understand it ;)
02:45:13  <Hazzard> Well, I gtg now
02:45:16  <Hazzard> See you later
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03:51:57  <Rhamphoryncus> complete fail  :O  I get the impression that the pathfinder in general doesn't care about double red signals.  It's only once it enters that block that it cares.
03:57:08  <Rhamphoryncus> Which is a good thing in general.  It means double signals at the end of a route don't cause trains on the other end of the map to become lost.  Unfortunately it also destroys my scheme.  XD
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08:49:13  <Hazzard> Hey guys
08:56:56  <Hazzard> Is the spread limit on the welcome server changed?
08:57:22  <Hazzard> I think it must be
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09:01:11  <Hazzard> Ugh, so anoying
09:01:14  <Hazzard> I cant change my stations
09:01:47  <Hazzard> 8 tiles ?!?!
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09:32:48  <Ammler> Hazzard: that can be different every game, depends on the map maker
09:33:14  <Ammler> best is to speak with the map author and ask for change...
09:33:35  <V453000> this was actually particularly suspicious Ammler :) other companies used like 25tile stations and then it was apparently reduced to 8
09:33:38  <V453000> which is unfair as hell
09:33:56  <V453000> but yeah, even station spread 4 games can be found there :P
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11:44:02  <Absolutis> !password
11:44:02  <PublicServer> Absolutis: hanker
11:44:09  <Absolutis> good (ugt) morning
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11:55:06  <elecRules> !players
11:55:09  <PublicServer> elecRules: There are currently no clients connected to the server
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12:51:42  <Hazzard> Anyone here play MSN transport?
12:53:17  <V453000> msn?
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14:35:33  <Mark> hello
14:38:20  <Mark> !password
14:38:21  <PublicServer> Mark: hanker
14:38:21  <V453000> o/
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16:19:54  <thecogwheel> !password
16:19:54  <PublicServer> thecogwheel: hanker
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16:25:35  <PublicServer> <TWerkhoven[l]> ello
16:27:08  <PublicServer> <TWerkhoven[l]> i hope the roads are right, i simply copied the pattern
16:27:16  <PublicServer> <Cogwheel> morning
16:27:20  <PublicServer> <Cogwheel> oh ty :)
16:30:10  <PublicServer> <Cogwheel> weird... trains with "full load" seem to take priority over trains that arrive first without that order
16:30:52  <PublicServer> <TWerkhoven[l]> why do you say that?
16:31:02  <PublicServer> <TWerkhoven[l]> snrw not working as expected?
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16:32:45  <PublicServer> <Cogwheel> C1 the train finishes unloading and starts loading again before the SBahn one is full
16:36:23  <Absolutis> train wrong way around?
16:36:27  <Absolutis> !password
16:36:27  <PublicServer> Absolutis: flexed
16:36:33  <Absolutis> happened to me before
16:36:39  <PublicServer> <TWerkhoven[l]> seems to work fine to me, all the passengers transfer to the actual train hey are supposed to be on
16:36:45  <PublicServer> <Cogwheel> it's cause i'm using a long station instead of a piece of rail past the end of the station for the dummy. Giving it a speed limit seems to have helped
16:37:01  <PublicServer> <TWerkhoven[l]> ah
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16:37:14  <PublicServer> <Cogwheel> hello
16:37:16  <PublicServer> <TWerkhoven[l]> it could start loading before the next train was in the platform then?
16:37:26  <PublicServer> <TWerkhoven[l]> in which case, first come first serve
16:37:33  <PublicServer> <Cogwheel> no, the train would get to the platfrom, get to ~66% then teh dummy train would arrive and start filling up
16:37:41  <PublicServer> <Cogwheel> and the circuit train wouldn't be full
16:38:36  <PublicServer> <Cogwheel> D1 is still doing it wrong (haven't timetabled the dummy yet)
16:38:42  <PublicServer> <Cogwheel> if you want to see it happening
16:39:38  <TWerkhoven[l]> odd
16:40:02  <PublicServer> <TWerkhoven[l]> might be just the volume of pax?
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16:40:24  <PublicServer> <Cogwheel> no cause then both trains should be full
16:40:39  <PublicServer> <TWerkhoven[l]> no-orders train gets full load, dumny starts loading some passengers which have arrived in the meantime
16:40:44  <PublicServer> <Cogwheel> nope
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16:40:52  <PublicServer> <Cogwheel> the no orders train doesn't get full
16:40:58  <PublicServer> <Cogwheel> look at the manifest when it leaves :)
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16:43:55  <roysvork> !dl win32
16:43:55  <PublicServer> roysvork:
16:43:59  <roysvork> !dl win64
16:43:59  <PublicServer> roysvork:
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17:12:30  <Maraxus> !password
17:12:30  <PublicServer> Maraxus: tussle
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17:12:57  <PublicServer> <Maraxus> hi
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17:13:03  <PublicServer> <Cogwheel> morning (ugt)
17:13:38  <TWerkhoven[l]> hi
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17:39:36  <PublicServer> <TWerkhoven[l]> ouch
17:39:58  <PublicServer> <Cogwheel> hmm?
17:46:40  <PublicServer> <TWerkhoven[l]> capacity problems?
17:46:43  <PublicServer> <Cogwheel> yep
17:47:05  <PublicServer> <TWerkhoven[l]> same here
17:47:21  <PublicServer> <TWerkhoven[l]> specially my backbone
17:49:10  <PublicServer> <TWerkhoven[l]> and that with the town at only 100k
17:55:09  <PublicServer> <TWerkhoven[l]> at this rate, i may have to re-do the area
17:56:15  <PublicServer> <Cogwheel> hopefully doubling my tunnel frequency will fix it. *crosses fingers*
18:01:44  <PublicServer> <TWerkhoven[l]> pbs actually break my stations, so i cant even add waiting bays withiuot big changes
18:03:06  <PublicServer> *** Maraxus has left the game (leaving)
18:14:48  <PublicServer> <Cogwheel> now it seems my only capacity problem is getting trains out of the station fast enough
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18:15:55  <LoPo> lo
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18:17:21  <LoPo> !password
18:17:22  <PublicServer> LoPo: peeped
18:17:24  <LoPo> !players
18:17:26  <PublicServer> LoPo: Client 3618 (Orange) is TWerkhoven[l], in company 1 (Skyscrapist inc.)
18:17:26  <PublicServer> LoPo: Client 3620 (Orange) is Cogwheel, in company 1 (Skyscrapist inc.)
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18:22:01  <PublicServer> <LoPo> were are towns at east and SE?
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18:28:49  <PublicServer> <TWerkhoven[l]> Se has a !found town sign
18:29:00  <PublicServer> <TWerkhoven[l]> make sure you use original road layout
18:29:23  <PublicServer> <TWerkhoven[l]> theres a similar sigh for E, but theres a town already there
18:29:37  <PublicServer> <LoPo> just biuld it :p
18:29:44  <PublicServer> <TWerkhoven[l]> :p
18:30:02  <PublicServer> <Cogwheel> -_-
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18:32:50  <PublicServer> <Mazur> Damn. I've gotten too used to a mouse-wheel.
18:34:48  <PublicServer> <Mazur> Madness Epicenter Station #631 needs trains.
18:35:21  <V453000> !password
18:35:21  <PublicServer> V453000: severs
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18:35:35  <PublicServer> <V453000> hu
18:35:47  <PublicServer> <Mazur> Lo.
18:36:27  <PublicServer> <V453000> caterpillar Sbahns should be rebuilt
18:36:54  <PublicServer> <Mazur> Still city building.  And I've still no idea for a nice pickup station.
18:36:56  <PublicServer> <Mazur> :-)
18:37:58  <PublicServer> *** Mazur has left the game (leaving)
18:38:50  <PublicServer> <V453000> well another option is to close this game ... I have to say that I am kind of bored by the failures all over :) ML wont be nearly sufficient later, at least 2 Sbahns arent working...
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18:38:56  <PublicServer> <V453000> or insufficiently
18:39:20  <PublicServer> <TWerkhoven[l]> 3 if you count mfbs circle sbahn
18:39:34  <PublicServer> <V453000> counted that and caterpillar
18:39:56  <PublicServer> <V453000> idk ... the game has been fun, but it would require too much effort to do something more
18:41:36  <Mazur> Well, I'm trying to write a game, anyway, so I won't play much, anyway.  Have to learn perl/Tk first, and it's not coming fast.
18:41:57  <Mazur> Double anyway, I'm slipping.
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18:44:20  <PublicServer> <TWerkhoven[l]> im not against new game, just lemme finish current works
18:45:05  <PublicServer> <Cogwheel> now that I have population i see my design fails pretty miserably -_-
18:47:13  <Bassals> !dl
18:47:13  <PublicServer> Bassals: !dl autostart|autottd|lin|lin64|osx|ottdau|source|win32|win64|win9x
18:47:14  <PublicServer> Bassals:
18:49:20  <PublicServer> *** bassals joined the game
18:49:24  <PublicServer> <bassals> hello!
18:50:06  <PublicServer> <bassals> it's great to pleay with a proper computer
18:51:08  <PublicServer> <Cogwheel> Apparently my catchment area is too big per station. I can't even keep up with my passenger count let alone handle the traffic on my network :(
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18:53:10  <PublicServer> <TWerkhoven[l]> pbs penalties have helped for mine
18:53:22  <PublicServer> <TWerkhoven[l]> trains now at least seem to go only to their own stations
18:55:12  <PublicServer> <V453000> yeah Cogwheel, we probably went way too confident with the train set
18:55:30  <PublicServer> <V453000> if you look, center uses 1 line for each 200x13 area
18:55:40  <PublicServer> <V453000> and it isnt even full length on the 200 tiles
18:56:04  <PublicServer> <V453000> so if you made it a ~140 tile stripe of 13tiles, you would get ~1 line required of throughput
18:56:32  <PublicServer> <V453000> but well some should work
18:57:30  <PublicServer> <V453000> idk, I would say end the game, get a new one, have fun, perhaps try again sometime later
18:57:56  <PublicServer> <V453000> but as long as you are guys entertained with this one I am not doing anything with it :)
18:57:56  <TWerkhoven[l]> learn from the mistakes made here
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19:02:08  <PublicServer> <V453000> well sure every game has some conclusion you can take from it :)
19:02:46  <Bassals> what is main conclusion of this game?
19:02:52  <Bassals> in your oppinion
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19:03:36  <TWerkhoven[l]> things that work in one game, may not work in another
19:03:39  <TWerkhoven[l]> even with the same trainset
19:03:47  <PublicServer> <V453000> 1. cities cant grow over whole 512x512, 2. Sbahns have to be built much more carefully,  ML should be built rather bigger than smaller
19:03:57  <PublicServer> <V453000> sure, but general thoughts
19:04:51  <PublicServer> <V453000> the fact that the map is flat makes everything seem smaller. But each of the Sbahn sectors is HUGE
19:05:21  <PublicServer> <V453000> so we underestimated the throughput we needed, on ML, on Sbahns
19:05:35  <Maraxus> !password
19:05:35  <PublicServer> Maraxus: gleams
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19:06:07  <PublicServer> <Maraxus> hi
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19:28:15  <roysvork> Is there a way of changing newgrfs after a game has started?
19:28:27  <roysvork> My 2cc set has bugged out and there are no passenger coaches!
19:29:52  <V453000> sure there is, just set scenario_developer to true in the config
19:29:57  <V453000> in [gui] section
19:30:01  <V453000> strange issue though
19:30:14  <V453000> and be careful :p some newGRFs hate being changed
19:31:25  <roysvork> the only other thing I can think is that maybe the passenger coaches aren't available until a certain date
19:31:31  <roysvork> but that sounds silly
19:31:44  <roysvork> did you ever finish your nuts set?
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19:35:41  <Firestar> when will new game start?
19:37:14  <planetmaker> roysvork, you sure can destroy the map that way. Like invalid cargos, invalid vehicles, invalid buidlings, invalid industries, messed-up prices. That's the friendly version
19:37:18  <planetmaker> Game crashes the unfriendly
19:39:04  <roysvork> I don't really have much of a choice at this point, it's either trash my last 2 hours of building or try to change the set
19:39:15  <roysvork> I don't have any trains yet, will that make it less risky?
19:44:00  <Firestar> !password
19:44:00  <PublicServer> Firestar: miking
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19:50:33  <V453000> roysvork: I am still ever finishing it :p
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20:01:43  <planetmaker> roysvork: that will make it slightly less risky. But not necessarily avoid anything of what I listed
20:02:04  <planetmaker> it will just remove one or two possible reasons for crashes
20:20:41  <Rhamphoryncus> roysvork: I would save the game, then use cheats to jump forward many years and see if the passenger coaches show up
20:22:19  <Rhamphoryncus> I have a problem with one of the NARS livestock cars not showing up.  The early car shows up, eventually the modern car shows up, but the middle one never does.
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20:31:49  <roysvork> cool thanks
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20:33:29  <roysvork> rhamp: that did the trick thanks
20:33:52  <Rhamphoryncus> I don't mean as a solution.  Just to find out if it's broken or not :)
20:34:10  <roysvork> oh no wait lol
20:34:19  <roysvork> there's a metro car but it's only got 1 capacity
20:37:47  <V453000> seriously, how the hell do you get such errors :D
20:37:54  <V453000> never noticed anything like that
20:42:08  <Rhamphoryncus> Who knows what evil lurks in the heart of newgrfs?  roysvork knows!
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23:47:50  <DrSpangle> so, would anyone be willing to have a look at one of my saved games with me, maybe hold my hand a little and let me know where i'm going horribly wrong with my design
23:49:12  <Mazur> Not right this second, but if I can access your saved game I can took a gander at it.
23:50:10  <DrSpangle> that'd be great
23:50:25  <DrSpangle> i'm really keen on being walked through, so i can explain the thinking behind my design and you can give me criticism
23:50:59  <DrSpangle> i'm going to make some sushi, so i'd give it about half an hour before i'm ready
23:51:16  <DrSpangle> if you wanna just start yelling at me when you're ready to go i'll come and set up a server so we can get started
23:53:16  <Mazur> I was more thinking about asynchronously, first, since I'm doign stuff with food atm as well, and may well resort to watching TV after for after dinner letting it settle and coffee.
23:54:36  <Mazur> Then some time after, if you'd still be here, or be here again, I coul help you if I can halp you.
23:56:44  <DrSpangle> that's a very generous offer, but i'm not sure that it's going to work so well if we're not both looking at this mess i've made at the same time - the problem is that it's overall an "OK" design i think, it's just that there are many many finer points that it fails to grasp, and i think that needs picked over as a group
23:57:00  <DrSpangle> i might take some time a little later to annotate it a bit, and then i think we could try doing what you're suggesting
23:57:33  <DrSpangle> maybe it's simple enough that it doesn't even need that, though, so i'll grab the savegame in a few minutes and send it to you anyway
23:59:11  <Mazur> Ok.

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