Config
Log for #openttdcoop on 27th June 2012:
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00:00:48  <PublicServer> <LoPo> done! :P
00:04:05  <PublicServer> <LoPo> help with signals plz
00:04:16  <PublicServer> <rt98700> ok
00:04:32  <PublicServer> <dwarf> prio?
00:04:38  <PublicServer> <LoPo> uhmm
00:04:41  <PublicServer> <LoPo> yeah why not :)
00:07:52  <PublicServer> <rt98700> Question: Why should balancer be priorized, if the goal is balace the flow?
00:08:06  <PublicServer> <LoPo> yeah
00:08:12  <PublicServer> <LoPo> its a debate
00:08:20  <PublicServer> <LoPo> but its like at BBH
00:08:38  <PublicServer> <LoPo> to prefent some unnessesarry slowdowns
00:09:52  <PublicServer> <LoPo> lol
00:14:50  <PublicServer> <LoPo> omg
00:14:56  <PublicServer> <LoPo> whole network is stuk :P
00:17:29  <PublicServer> <LoPo> nice now we wait :P
00:18:11  <PublicServer> <LoPo> looks nioce :P
00:18:14  <PublicServer> <LoPo> nice*
00:18:17  <PublicServer> <dwarf> yeah, cool
00:18:47  <PublicServer> <LoPo> wow
00:18:49  <PublicServer> <rt98700> :) Realy cool.
00:19:52  <PublicServer> <LoPo> haha!
00:20:07  <PublicServer> <LoPo> pickup overcrowded
00:20:57  <PublicServer> <LoPo> WOW
00:21:03  <PublicServer> <LoPo> look at this depot :P
00:21:07  <PublicServer> <LoPo>  at !here
00:21:17  <PublicServer> <rt98700> It will take some time to ajust itsellf.
00:21:20  <PublicServer> <LoPo> omg
00:21:26  <PublicServer> <LoPo> like 50 trains in it :P
00:21:28  <PublicServer> <dwarf> :D
00:21:28  <PublicServer> <LoPo> lololol
00:22:55  <PublicServer> <LoPo> yeah smart
00:23:01  <PublicServer> <rt98700> :)
00:23:55  <PublicServer> <rt98700> Its just a hack to ajust flow... I should destro it later.
00:25:57  <PublicServer> <rt98700> OMG!!!!!
00:26:00  <PublicServer> <LoPo> omg? :P
00:26:19  <PublicServer> <LoPo> now what?
00:26:26  <PublicServer> <rt98700> All trains in the world are in that depot!!!
00:26:32  <PublicServer> <LoPo> lol
00:26:36  <PublicServer> <rt98700> Kkkk
00:26:38  <PublicServer> <LoPo> i just sad that
00:26:48  <PublicServer> <rt98700> I don't see it
00:27:03  <PublicServer> <LoPo> well :P now you know ;)
00:27:05  <PublicServer> <LoPo> hehe
00:32:31  <PublicServer> <rt98700> I save this game. I will try to make my though alone later. If you want see I'll send you.
00:33:01  <PublicServer> <LoPo> oky
00:33:04  <PublicServer> <LoPo> why save it?
00:33:38  <PublicServer> <LoPo> why not build the things you want to build right here?
00:34:04  <PublicServer> <rt98700> To learn. I dont want do crap here. Kkkkk
00:34:15  <PublicServer> <LoPo> awww
00:34:21  <PublicServer> <LoPo> dont worry
00:34:31  <PublicServer> <LoPo> you can learn here aswell
00:37:49  <PublicServer> <rt98700> City drop it crowded.
00:42:15  <PublicServer> <rt98700> Oh... It's because the exit line...
00:45:39  <PublicServer> <LoPo> uhmm :p
00:45:52  <PublicServer> <LoPo> dwarf: w8
00:47:58  <PublicServer> <LoPo> yes :)
00:48:00  <PublicServer> <rt98700> I don't wee a way to solve this jam without a 4th lane.
00:50:31  <PublicServer> <LoPo> yeah or even
00:50:37  <PublicServer> <LoPo> there
00:51:31  <PublicServer> <rt98700> Are you talking to me?
00:51:35  <PublicServer> <LoPo> no
00:51:46  <PublicServer> <rt98700> ok
00:52:00  <PublicServer> <LoPo> hmm
00:52:10  <PublicServer> <LoPo> to long
00:52:37  <PublicServer> <LoPo> nono w8
00:53:05  <PublicServer> <LoPo> fk
00:54:04  <PublicServer> <LoPo> 4 tunnels
00:55:38  <PublicServer> <LoPo> lol
00:55:57  <PublicServer> <LoPo> we still need to bridge something
00:57:21  <PublicServer> <rt98700> Hey. I have to go now. See'u.
00:57:27  <PublicServer> <LoPo> bbb
00:57:29  <PublicServer> <LoPo> and thx
00:58:19  <PublicServer> <rt98700> I shoud thank. I learned a lot whit your thingie. :)
00:59:01  <PublicServer> <LoPo> :)
00:59:17  <PublicServer> *** rt98700 has left the game (leaving)
01:07:03  <PublicServer> <LoPo> uhmm
01:07:06  <PublicServer> <LoPo> dwarf
01:07:12  <PublicServer> <dwarf> 2 divisors?
01:07:15  <PublicServer> <LoPo> did you disconnected the flipflop?
01:07:23  <PublicServer> <dwarf> or 1 line east, 1 south?
01:07:25  <PublicServer> <LoPo> yes
01:07:27  <PublicServer> <LoPo> nono
01:07:33  <PublicServer> <LoPo> 2 splitters
01:07:40  <PublicServer> <dwarf> ok
01:14:20  <PublicServer> <LoPo> pfff i realy need to go to sleep :S
01:14:30  <PublicServer> <dwarf> ok, gn
01:14:53  <PublicServer> <LoPo> where are you from?
01:15:01  <PublicServer> <dwarf> hungary
01:15:08  <PublicServer> <LoPo> ah
01:15:18  <PublicServer> <LoPo> so its like 5 am at your place?
01:15:20  <PublicServer> <dwarf> you?
01:15:24  <PublicServer> <LoPo> 3 am
01:15:27  <PublicServer> <dwarf> I'm in the US
01:15:33  <PublicServer> <LoPo> im from the netherlnds
01:15:35  <PublicServer> <LoPo> ow
01:15:37  <PublicServer> <LoPo> :P
01:15:39  <PublicServer> <LoPo> figures
01:15:41  <PublicServer> <LoPo> haha
01:15:44  <PublicServer> <dwarf> its 6pm :D
01:15:50  <PublicServer> <LoPo> lol
01:16:06  <PublicServer> <LoPo> k well nice playing :)
01:16:15  <PublicServer> <LoPo> we did some good stuff i think
01:16:24  <PublicServer> <LoPo> see ya
01:16:26  <PublicServer> <dwarf> yep, it works really nice
01:16:32  <PublicServer> <dwarf> cya
01:16:35  <PublicServer> *** LoPo has left the game (leaving)
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01:57:22  <rb98700> !password
01:57:22  <PublicServer> rb98700: greets
01:58:00  <PublicServer> *** Game still paused (number of players)
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03:04:48  <rodrigo_> !dl
03:04:48  <PublicServer> rodrigo_: !dl autostart|autottd|lin|lin64|osx|ottdau|source|win32|win64|win9x
03:04:48  <PublicServer> rodrigo_: http://www.openttd.org/en/download-trunk/r24349
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03:26:48  <dwarf> !players
03:26:51  <PublicServer> dwarf: There are currently no clients connected to the server
03:27:25  <dwarf> !password
03:27:25  <PublicServer> dwarf: greets
03:35:58  <PublicServer> *** Game still paused (number of players)
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04:57:34  <dwarf> !players
04:57:37  <PublicServer> dwarf: There are currently no clients connected to the server
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07:24:19  <Mazth> !info
07:24:19  <PublicServer> Mazth: #:1(Orange) Company Name: 'Black & Co.'  Year Founded: 2070  Money: 20291458049  Loan: 0  Value: 20297117427  (T:972, R:0, P:0, S:0) unprotected
07:24:23  <Mazth> !record
07:24:39  <Mazth> !records
07:24:59  <Mazth> !stats
07:24:59  <PublicServer> Mazth: use @coopstats
07:25:09  <Mazth> @coopstats
07:25:10  <Webster> #openttdcoop @ OFTC stats by Webster - http://webster.openttdcoop.org/stats.html
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08:09:41  <freakadella> !password
08:09:41  <PublicServer> freakadella: greets
08:10:05  <PublicServer> *** Freakadella has left the game (processing map took too long)
08:10:06  <PublicServer> *** Freakadella has left the game (connection lost)
08:10:06  <PublicServer> *** Game still paused (number of players)
08:10:31  <PublicServer> *** Freakadella has left the game (processing map took too long)
08:10:31  <PublicServer> *** Freakadella has left the game (connection lost)
08:10:31  <PublicServer> *** Game still paused (number of players)
08:10:36  <freakadella> :(
08:11:49  <Vinnie_nl> still, :(
08:11:56  <PublicServer> *** Game still paused (number of players)
08:11:56  <PublicServer> *** Freakadella joined the game
08:11:57  <freakadella> :D
08:11:58  <freakadella> im in
08:12:04  <Vinnie_nl> nice
08:12:59  <PublicServer> *** Freakadella has joined company #1
08:18:03  <freakadella> this is quite an awesome network
08:20:17  <Vinnie_nl> yeah but i think its nearly done
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08:22:23  <freakadella> are cities ignored?
08:22:33  <Vinnie_nl> yes look at the network plan
08:23:09  <PublicServer> *** Game still paused (number of players)
08:23:09  <PublicServer> <Bassals> hello!
08:23:09  <PublicServer> *** Bassals joined the game
08:23:14  <PublicServer> <Bassals> good morning
08:23:39  <freakadella> where did you put the plan?
08:23:51  <PublicServer> <Bassals> open the list of signs
08:24:04  <freakadella> ahh
08:24:05  <freakadella> thanks
08:27:05  <PublicServer> <Bassals> do you want me to join?
08:29:42  <freakadella> sure
08:29:45  <PublicServer> *** Bassals has joined company #1
08:29:45  <PublicServer> *** Game unpaused (number of players)
08:29:54  <freakadella> wow
08:29:56  <freakadella> all the trains :D
08:31:20  <PublicServer> <Bassals> my computer has trouble to handle the game
08:31:33  <freakadella> mine too :D
08:31:40  <PublicServer> <Bassals> even though we have less than 1000 trains
08:32:33  <freakadella> turning off the trees helped a bit
08:33:09  <Vinnie_nl> full animation ?
08:35:02  <freakadella> is there anything i can turn off to make it smoother?
08:35:41  <bassals> full animation
08:35:44  <bassals> and this
08:35:49  <freakadella> where do I turn that off?
08:36:08  <Vinnie_nl> keep the wrench pressed on the titlebar
08:37:02  <PublicServer> <Bassals> g
08:38:12  <freakadella> it didnt really help alot
08:38:52  <PublicServer> *** Bassals has left the game (general timeout)
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08:38:52  <PublicServer> *** Game paused (number of players)
08:39:11  <bassals> it didn't help me :-(
08:39:36  <PublicServer> *** Game still paused (number of players)
08:39:38  <PublicServer> *** Bassals joined the game
08:39:54  <PublicServer> *** Bassals has joined company #1
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08:48:31  <PublicServer> *** Bassals has left the game (general timeout)
08:48:31  <PublicServer> *** Bassals has left the game (connection lost)
08:48:31  <PublicServer> *** Game paused (number of players)
08:48:53  <bassals> bffff i'm sorry freakadella
08:49:08  <freakadella> no worries :D
08:49:27  <freakadella> im not able to do anything anyway
08:49:38  <freakadella> even if it didnt lag
08:49:41  <freakadella> I would be quite lost
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10:35:00  <bpsp10> !identify
10:37:19  <bpsp10> user identify bpsp10 passw0rd
10:41:37  <bpsp10> no idea if I've identified properly
10:41:52  <bpsp10> need to spend some time learning IRC commands
10:46:34  <bassals> do you need to identify?
10:46:47  <V453000> you need to do these commands with nickserv
10:46:53  <V453000> type /query nickserv
10:47:09  <V453000> bassals: if you want to make sure your nickname is not abused :)
10:47:55  <bassals> i think that i have already registered it
10:49:13  <bpsp10> it told me I needed to identify when I logged on here earlier
10:50:43  <bassals> it's not that important
10:52:43  <bpsp10> cool
11:09:26  <XeryusTC> /msg nickserv help register
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12:12:15  <rb98700> !players
12:12:17  <PublicServer> rb98700: There are currently no clients connected to the server
12:12:25  <rb98700> !password
12:12:25  <PublicServer> rb98700: quarts
12:13:00  <PublicServer> *** Game still paused (number of players)
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12:23:04  <LoPO> !nick LoPo
12:23:15  <LoPO> argh
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14:18:22  <bpsp10> do people recommend playing the sandbox public game to acquaint myself with the openttdcoop building style.... or is it better to observe the actual game?
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19:00:33  <LoPo> hi
19:04:04  <V453000> elo
19:17:25  <LoPo> V453000: ey
19:17:42  <LoPo> did you read my article?
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19:21:07  <V453000> not yet
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19:25:26  <Ryton_> oi
19:29:32  <Ryton_> !players
19:29:35  <PublicServer> Ryton_: There are currently no clients connected to the server
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19:30:43  <chlorine> !download lin
19:30:43  <PublicServer> chlorine: http://binaries.openttd.org/nightlies/trunk/r24349/openttd-trunk-r24349-linux-generic-i686.tar.xz
19:35:42  <chlorine> !password
19:35:42  <PublicServer> chlorine: quarts
19:35:53  <PublicServer> *** Game still paused (number of players)
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19:38:26  <LoPo> !password
19:38:26  <PublicServer> LoPo: quarts
19:39:01  <PublicServer> *** Game still paused (number of players)
19:39:01  <PublicServer> *** Game unpaused (number of players)
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19:39:35  <PublicServer> <chlorine> hello
19:39:39  <PublicServer> <LoPo> hiya
19:42:12  <PublicServer> <chlorine> Say, is it relevant to add trains to primary stations that lack some?
19:42:40  <PublicServer> <LoPo> sure
19:43:02  <PublicServer> <chlorine> Cool, these trains look so good :)
19:48:16  <V453000> :) good to hear
19:54:49  <chlorine> V453000: it was love at first sight with these trains :)
19:56:33  <PublicServer> <chlorine> Have you noticed the congestion at SLH05?
19:56:37  <V453000> :D :)
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20:02:01  <PublicServer> <chlorine> I think !this signal _never_ turns green...
20:02:15  <PublicServer> <chlorine> Is it just because the ML's too packed?
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20:05:39  <PublicServer> <LoPo> yeah probably
20:05:42  <PublicServer> <chlorine> Got it, the prio's longer than I thought.
20:06:00  <PublicServer> <LoPo> ...
20:06:30  <PublicServer> <LoPo> no
20:06:33  <PublicServer> <LoPo> prio is fine
20:06:35  <PublicServer> <chlorine> I still have a hard time understanding complicated things with signals :/
20:06:39  <PublicServer> <LoPo> MLis to crowded
20:07:13  <PublicServer> <chlorine> I was not saying it was not fine, just that I misread the signals and thought it was shorter than it is.
20:07:27  <PublicServer> <LoPo> yeah i know :)
20:07:27  <PublicServer> <LoPo> but
20:16:19  <PublicServer> <LoPo> chlorine: wanna build something?
20:16:49  <PublicServer> <chlorine> I'd like to, but I'm not sure I can manage anything besides stations
20:16:59  <PublicServer> <LoPo> :P
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20:17:27  <PublicServer> <LoPo> see the big split infront of goods pickup?
20:18:01  <PublicServer> <chlorine> hang on
20:19:07  <PublicServer> <chlorine> Actually no :D
20:19:17  <PublicServer> <chlorine> A split is a line divide, right?
20:19:32  <PublicServer> <LoPo> yes
20:20:19  <PublicServer> <chlorine> Do you mean at the 'Tripplin' is fun' sing?
20:20:25  <PublicServer> <chlorine> sign
20:20:27  <PublicServer> <LoPo> yes
20:20:49  <PublicServer> <chlorine> What about it?
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20:21:04  <PublicServer> <LoPo> but on second thoughs i think that is also quite hard
20:21:22  <PublicServer> <LoPo> well, i have a 4th line from west now
20:21:34  <PublicServer> <chlorine> Seeing how much time I need to identify tracks from ground tiles ;)
20:21:37  <PublicServer> <LoPo> you can see it west of MSH 03 west
20:21:55  <PublicServer> <chlorine> Yes I see it.
20:23:41  <PublicServer> <LoPo> well that line will have to go to the station
20:23:44  <PublicServer> <LoPo> :)
20:24:42  <PublicServer> <chlorine> You mean you want to add a fourth line all the way to the station, not just connect it to MSH?
20:25:04  <PublicServer> <LoPo> yes
20:25:38  <PublicServer> <LoPo> want something easy?
20:25:44  <PublicServer> <LoPo> chlorine?
20:25:46  <PublicServer> <chlorine> oh yes.
20:26:08  <PublicServer> <LoPo> see at !build 1+2->2
20:26:14  <PublicServer> <LoPo> you can do that
20:26:28  <PublicServer> <LoPo> the new line must be connected to both lines
20:26:34  <PublicServer> <LoPo> with prios and stuff
20:26:36  <PublicServer> <chlorine> With prios?
20:26:58  <PublicServer> <chlorine> OK, I'll try that. :)
20:28:25  <PublicServer> <chlorine> How many tiles long should prios be?
20:28:39  <PublicServer> <LoPo> 5 is enough there
20:29:06  <PublicServer> <chlorine> OK, I'll see if I can do something meaningful.
20:30:43  <PublicServer> <chlorine> Am I allowed to move the two tracks of the ML away from one another?
20:31:05  <PublicServer> <LoPo> ofc
20:31:12  <PublicServer> <chlorine> ofc?
20:31:15  <PublicServer> <LoPo> you need to make some space
20:31:18  <PublicServer> <LoPo> ofcource
20:31:34  <PublicServer> <chlorine> glad to hear that, I was really scratching my head :)
20:31:40  <PublicServer> <LoPo> hhe
20:33:30  <PublicServer> <chlorine> Bridges should be at least 4 tiles long?
20:33:41  <PublicServer> <LoPo> eah
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20:37:15  <PublicServer> <chlorine> Apart from the fact that there are no prios, how does it look?
20:37:49  <PublicServer> <LoPo> hmmm
20:38:11  <PublicServer> <LoPo> its a start :)
20:38:15  <PublicServer> <chlorine> :D
20:38:29  <PublicServer> <LoPo> are the bays long enough?
20:38:56  <PublicServer> <chlorine> The bays are the part before each track joins the mainline?
20:40:58  <PublicServer> <chlorine> I think it's better like this, but it still takes a lot of space...
20:41:16  <PublicServer> <LoPo> aha
20:41:26  <PublicServer> <LoPo> also look at this section
20:41:37  <PublicServer> <chlorine> yes?
20:41:51  <PublicServer> <LoPo> the curve is to steep
20:41:54  <PublicServer> <chlorine> I should just double it all the way?
20:42:04  <PublicServer> <LoPo> you could do that
20:42:14  <PublicServer> <chlorine> oh I did not see the curve!
20:43:08  <PublicServer> <LoPo> k i helpeda bit
20:43:18  <PublicServer> <chlorine> Yes, thanks.
20:43:20  <PublicServer> <LoPo> now some pre signals and the prio
20:43:31  <PublicServer> <chlorine> btw feel perfectly free to take over if I am too slow.
20:43:45  <PublicServer> <chlorine> What are the two-way signals at the part you just remade?
20:43:57  <PublicServer> <LoPo> yes
20:44:01  <PublicServer> <chlorine> What are they for, I mean.
20:44:19  <PublicServer> <LoPo> i have the feeling these trains are  a bit more stupid
20:44:45  <PublicServer> <LoPo> so they need two-way to prefent them taking a occupied bay
20:44:59  <PublicServer> <chlorine> hmmm
20:45:05  <PublicServer> <LoPo> prevent*
20:45:08  <PublicServer> <chlorine> OK, I'll work on the prios
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20:50:08  <PublicServer> <chlorine> :D
20:50:31  <PublicServer> <chlorine> I'm giving priority to the sideline obviously :D
20:51:05  <PublicServer> <LoPo> :)
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20:51:32  <PublicServer> <LoPo> chlorine: you know how prios work?
20:52:00  <PublicServer> <chlorine> I think I know the theory but obviously I don't quite get it...
20:52:06  <PublicServer> <LoPo> :)
20:52:13  <PublicServer> <LoPo> k
20:52:19  <PublicServer> <chlorine> The exit signal should be on the paralle track right?
20:52:22  <PublicServer> <LoPo> ill show you someting
20:52:32  <PublicServer> <chlorine> thanks.
20:53:06  <PublicServer> <LoPo> k look now
20:53:32  <PublicServer> <LoPo> we want the entry signal to be red when a train is 5 tiles in front of the merg
20:53:42  <PublicServer> <LoPo> at the point
20:53:45  <PublicServer> <LoPo> see it?
20:53:47  <PublicServer> <chlorine> ok
20:54:01  <PublicServer> <LoPo> an arrow :P
20:54:03  <PublicServer> <chlorine> yes, nice arrow :)
20:54:21  <PublicServer> <LoPo> k see that?
20:54:27  <PublicServer> <LoPo> pre singaling
20:54:33  <PublicServer> <LoPo> now lets test it
20:54:39  <PublicServer> <chlorine> so these are combos on the ML, right?
20:54:46  <PublicServer> <LoPo> yes
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20:55:08  <PublicServer> <LoPo> see it?
20:55:12  <PublicServer> <chlorine> nice.
20:55:14  <PublicServer> <LoPo> look at the signals
20:55:26  <PublicServer> <chlorine> Yes, it's perfect.
20:55:28  <PublicServer> <LoPo> see that the red signal is passed throug?
20:55:34  <PublicServer> <LoPo> but
20:55:44  <PublicServer> <LoPo> there is a downside with this metode
20:55:48  <PublicServer> <LoPo> method*
20:55:51  <PublicServer> <LoPo> look
20:56:05  <PublicServer> <LoPo> it works 2 ways
20:56:09  <PublicServer> <LoPo> see it?
20:56:15  <PublicServer> <chlorine> yes
20:56:22  <PublicServer> <LoPo> the first two-way combo is still red
20:56:28  <PublicServer> <LoPo> and that is very bad
20:56:38  <PublicServer> <LoPo> so now we build a new design
20:56:44  <PublicServer> <chlorine> ok
20:56:58  <PublicServer> <LoPo> same situation
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20:57:39  <PublicServer> <LoPo> k
20:57:45  <PublicServer> <chlorine> so now the combos are one way"?
20:57:47  <PublicServer> <LoPo> pay attention now
20:57:53  <PublicServer> <LoPo> well in a way :P
20:57:55  <PublicServer> <chlorine> ok
20:58:11  <PublicServer> <LoPo> we "splitted " the two-way signals you could say
20:58:21  <PublicServer> <LoPo> k
20:58:23  <PublicServer> <LoPo> see
20:58:29  <PublicServer> <chlorine> yes
20:58:32  <PublicServer> <LoPo> the red signal is given throug
20:58:38  <PublicServer> <LoPo> but
20:58:46  <PublicServer> *** Bassals joined the game
20:58:55  <PublicServer> <Bassals> hello
20:58:57  <PublicServer> <LoPo> look
20:59:07  <PublicServer> <chlorine> yes?
20:59:14  <PublicServer> <chlorine> (hi)
20:59:16  <PublicServer> <LoPo> now there is no increased signal gap
20:59:26  <PublicServer> <chlorine> OK, so this one is good?
20:59:32  <PublicServer> <Bassals> okay, I cannot play in here
20:59:34  <PublicServer> <LoPo> yes
20:59:40  <PublicServer> <LoPo> lol yeah much lag
20:59:43  <PublicServer> *** Bassals has left the game (leaving)
21:00:13  <PublicServer> <chlorine> OK, thanks for the tutorial! :)
21:00:23  <PublicServer> <LoPo> you can also make combynations
21:00:37  <PublicServer> <chlorine> It seemed quite obvious when I read about it in the wiki, but making it in practice is much harder than I thought.
21:01:21  <PublicServer> <LoPo> look at the 3rd example
21:01:31  <PublicServer> <chlorine> I _think_ I get it.
21:01:41  <PublicServer> <chlorine> No increased signal gap because of the middle block signal?
21:01:56  <PublicServer> <LoPo> you will see the problem with example one when you extent the prio
21:02:30  <PublicServer> <LoPo> yes
21:02:40  <PublicServer> <LoPo> see the increased signal gab :P
21:02:48  <PublicServer> <chlorine> Yes!
21:03:00  <PublicServer> <LoPo> that is realy bad :P
21:03:06  <PublicServer> <chlorine> And is there a better choice between solutions 2 and 3?
21:03:28  <PublicServer> <LoPo> so thats why we build example 2 and 3
21:03:35  <PublicServer> <LoPo> it depents on the building space
21:05:41  <PublicServer> <chlorine> So are these good?
21:06:01  <PublicServer> <LoPo> perfect!
21:06:14  <PublicServer> <LoPo> but missing one signal :P
21:06:20  <PublicServer> <chlorine> Damn. :(
21:06:47  <PublicServer> <chlorine> yay! :)
21:06:50  <PublicServer> <LoPo> nice
21:06:52  <PublicServer> <LoPo> :)
21:07:18  <PublicServer> <chlorine> OK, thanks a lot for your time, that was very instructive.
21:07:24  <PublicServer> <chlorine> And fun also :)
21:07:51  <PublicServer> <LoPo> :)
21:07:53  <PublicServer> <LoPo> np
21:08:09  <PublicServer> <chlorine> And my head doesn't even hurt too much ;)
21:08:15  <PublicServer> <LoPo> lol
21:08:29  <PublicServer> <LoPo> well mine does now! :P
21:08:35  <PublicServer> <LoPo> no just kidding ;)
21:08:39  <PublicServer> <chlorine> sorry :p
21:10:01  <PublicServer> <LoPo> pfff
21:10:11  <PublicServer> <chlorine> ?
21:10:29  <PublicServer> <LoPo> well i connected the 4th line to the station
21:10:41  <PublicServer> <LoPo> and that was the easy part...
21:10:53  <PublicServer> <LoPo> now i need to connect it to MSH 04
21:12:11  <PublicServer> <chlorine> Ah OK, I get it.
21:12:18  <PublicServer> <chlorine> good luck with that :/
21:13:32  <PublicServer> <LoPo> OMG!
21:13:42  <PublicServer> <chlorine> what?
21:13:45  <PublicServer> <LoPo> look at the jam :P
21:13:55  <PublicServer> <chlorine> ouch!
21:13:57  <PublicServer> <LoPo> MSH 04 all those goods trains ;P
21:14:15  <PublicServer> <chlorine> And it's spreading.
21:14:17  <PublicServer> <LoPo> wanna help a bit?
21:14:23  <PublicServer> <chlorine> yes if I can
21:14:35  <PublicServer> <LoPo> k there need to be a 4th line from north
21:14:53  <PublicServer> <chlorine> MSH 04 north? (or 03)
21:14:57  <PublicServer> <LoPo> ill place some "buyed land singes"
21:15:20  <PublicServer> <LoPo> see the line?
21:15:26  <PublicServer> <chlorine> yes
21:15:46  <PublicServer> <LoPo> west of MSH 4 is the hard part
21:15:49  <PublicServer> <LoPo> for you then :)
21:15:55  <PublicServer> <LoPo> that is your job
21:16:05  <PublicServer> <LoPo> ill bridge it
21:16:15  <PublicServer> <LoPo> and connect the lines from the station
21:16:29  <PublicServer> <chlorine> OK
21:16:36  <PublicServer> <chlorine> That's wise :)
21:20:31  <PublicServer> <LoPo> concetrat on the west part of MSH04 north
21:20:33  <PublicServer> <chlorine> OK, done (I think)
21:20:48  <PublicServer> <chlorine> what do you mean?
21:21:06  <PublicServer> <LoPo> you need toplit it and brifge/tunnel line "this line""
21:21:20  <PublicServer> <chlorine> Oh, I thought you said you would do it.
21:21:26  <PublicServer> <chlorine> OK, I'll give it a go
21:21:36  <PublicServer> <LoPo> yes but not there
21:21:42  <PublicServer> <LoPo> i do the southern part
21:22:04  <PublicServer> <chlorine> OK, I'm lost :(
21:22:43  <PublicServer> <chlorine> YOu don't mean !here when you say 'west part of msh04 north' ?
21:22:57  <PublicServer> <LoPo> yes
21:26:43  <PublicServer> <chlorine> And you will connect it, right?
21:27:05  <PublicServer> <LoPo> try not to bridge the ML
21:27:21  <PublicServer> <LoPo> see the line next to your line?
21:27:31  <PublicServer> <chlorine> yes
21:27:37  <PublicServer> <LoPo> starting with the sign 3rd /mfb
21:27:43  <PublicServer> <LoPo> make it like tahat
21:27:45  <PublicServer> <LoPo> that*
21:28:07  <PublicServer> <chlorine> I'll try
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21:28:43  <PublicServer> <chlorine> Do you mean doubling the bridges or something else?
21:28:54  <PublicServer> <LoPo> no
21:29:00  <PublicServer> <LoPo> what i sad
21:29:06  <PublicServer> <LoPo> like the 3rd line
21:29:18  <PublicServer> <chlorine> Sorry, I don't get it.
21:29:29  <PublicServer> <LoPo> k ill make a start
21:29:48  <PublicServer> <chlorine> Never mind me thought, if I'm too slow I don't want to hinder you :)
21:30:02  <PublicServer> <LoPo> see it?
21:30:08  <PublicServer> <LoPo> no no :) your are fast enough
21:30:28  <PublicServer> <chlorine> so extend the tunnels and make it run over them?
21:30:44  <PublicServer> <LoPo> besides this line doesnt need to be build that quick
21:30:46  <PublicServer> <LoPo> yes
21:30:56  <PublicServer> <chlorine> ok, I see it now, thanks.
21:33:51  <PublicServer> <LoPo> bam!
21:33:57  <PublicServer> <chlorine> ?
21:34:03  <PublicServer> <LoPo> crash
21:34:11  <rb98700> !password
21:34:11  <PublicServer> rb98700: frisks
21:34:13  <PublicServer> <chlorine> Ouch :(
21:34:19  <PublicServer> <chlorine> where ?
21:34:37  <PublicServer> <rt98700> hi
21:34:38  <PublicServer> *** rt98700 joined the game
21:34:42  <PublicServer> <chlorine> hi
21:34:45  <PublicServer> <LoPo> at goods pickup station
21:34:48  <PublicServer> <LoPo> ey
21:35:10  <PublicServer> <LoPo> LOL
21:35:14  <PublicServer> <LoPo> omg check this!
21:35:32  <PublicServer> <LoPo> at !omg
21:35:46  <PublicServer> <LoPo> see the livestock train?
21:35:53  <PublicServer> <LoPo> the cow says !! omg
21:36:03  <PublicServer> <LoPo> lol
21:36:06  <PublicServer> <chlorine> :D
21:36:06  <V453000> IT BE NO COW
21:36:14  <PublicServer> <chlorine> pig?
21:36:16  <PublicServer> <rt98700> OMG!!!!
21:36:16  <PublicServer> <LoPo> whatever it is :P
21:36:20  <V453000> pink elephant.
21:36:22  <PublicServer> <rt98700> kkkk
21:36:25  <PublicServer> <LoPo> haha
21:36:29  <PublicServer> <chlorine> Why is the train stopped?
21:36:30  <PublicServer> <LoPo> lol V nice one
21:36:32  <PublicServer> <chlorine> nice :D
21:36:38  <PublicServer> <LoPo> to show you
21:36:42  <PublicServer> <chlorine> :)
21:37:08  <PublicServer> <rt98700> I take a print. Kkkkk
21:37:18  <PublicServer> <chlorine> good :)
21:37:48  <PublicServer> <chlorine> And V, do you have a script monitoring when we speak of the trains?!
21:37:58  <PublicServer> <chlorine> Your answer was astoundingly fast :p
21:38:12  <PublicServer> <rt98700> Yeah.
21:38:32  <V453000> no just coincidence
21:38:52  <PublicServer> <chlorine> My paranoia says other wise ;)
21:38:55  <Mazth> don't believe it
21:38:55  <V453000> idk what keywords would I even have to set for that :D
21:39:04  <V453000> I read mostly all chat
21:39:11  <V453000> or skim through
21:39:17  <Mazth> he has a bot running!
21:39:29  <PublicServer> <chlorine> And a very clever bot, too! :p
21:39:43  <PublicServer> <chlorine> LoPo:  how did you raise several tiles at the same time? level land tool?
21:39:57  <PublicServer> <LoPo> you can drag
21:40:00  <Mazur> !password
21:40:00  <PublicServer> Mazur: frisks
21:40:12  <PublicServer> <chlorine> nice
21:40:35  <PublicServer> *** Mazur joined the game
21:41:39  <PublicServer> <rt98700> The merge from goods drop on MSH04E is jamming.
21:42:05  <PublicServer> <rt98700> Oh no!
21:42:12  <PublicServer> <rt98700>  anymore.
21:42:23  <PublicServer> <rt98700> not anymore. Sorry.
21:42:49  <PublicServer> <LoPo> what you just saw were magic jams
21:43:00  <PublicServer> <LoPo> they only exists for 1 sec :P
21:43:14  *** Mazth has quit IRC
21:43:34  <PublicServer> <chlorine> OK, time to go to bed.
21:43:40  <PublicServer> <rt98700> Kkk Some one make a 4th but not sign.
21:43:44  <PublicServer> <chlorine> Thanks for you time LoPo, it was fun! :)
21:43:48  <PublicServer> <chlorine> see you
21:43:50  <PublicServer> <LoPo> nps
21:44:00  <PublicServer> *** chlorine has left the game (leaving)
21:44:04  <PublicServer> <LoPo> rt98700:  you mean south?
21:44:07  *** chlorine has quit IRC
21:44:32  <PublicServer> <rt98700> no
21:44:43  <PublicServer> <rt98700> o MSH03W
21:45:06  <PublicServer> <rt98700> # msh04E to msh03w
21:46:05  <PublicServer> <Mazur> There is a sign from LoPo at MSH 04E.
21:46:23  <PublicServer> <LoPo> eayh i builded the 4th
21:46:26  <PublicServer> <LoPo> ill sign it in a min
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21:47:42  <PublicServer> <rt98700> I was shure that sign was not  there.
21:48:04  <PublicServer> <Mazur> SLH 04 needs another exit to the north.
21:48:59  <PublicServer> <Mazur> Or the existing ones need to be better configured.
21:50:02  <PublicServer> <rt98700> Could you show me what do you think whit a better configuration? :)
21:50:43  <PublicServer> <rt98700> # think = mean .... whit = with#
21:50:49  <PublicServer> <LoPo> hmmm
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21:52:57  <PublicServer> <rt98700> 'Cause in my though just make a larger waitting in merge.
21:53:43  <PublicServer> <Mazur> I made some prios in hte sideline, now the trains don;t get stopped as often.
21:56:10  <PublicServer> <rt98700> :)
22:00:12  <PublicServer> <LoPo> fk!
22:00:48  <PublicServer> <LoPo> WTF!
22:00:50  <PublicServer> <LoPo> omgomasdasd as
22:01:32  <PublicServer> <rt98700> ???
22:03:20  <PublicServer> <LoPo> i crashed again
22:03:47  <PublicServer> <rt98700> ><
22:04:39  *** Progman has quit IRC
22:21:51  <PublicServer> <LoPo> ahh nice!
22:22:03  <PublicServer> <LoPo> goods drop looks better now
22:22:34  <PublicServer> <rt98700> Yeah... It was a little mess
22:22:56  <PublicServer> <LoPo> its still a mess :P
22:24:18  <PublicServer> <rt98700> Well bomb all lanes to/from goods...
22:25:06  <PublicServer> <LoPo> nha
22:25:13  <PublicServer> <LoPo> its oky now
22:29:06  <PublicServer> <LoPo> why is the lag so bad?
22:30:06  *** Skasi has joined #openttdcoop
22:30:09  <Skasi> !password
22:30:09  <PublicServer> Skasi: hunger
22:30:26  <Skasi> hunger is a silly password.. it should be sleepy instead
22:30:47  <PublicServer> *** Skasi joined the game
22:34:07  <PublicServer> *** Skasi has left the game (leaving)
22:34:15  *** Skasi has left #openttdcoop
22:35:00  <PublicServer> <Mazur> TWAIN LIMID!
22:37:08  <PublicServer> <rt98700> ???
22:37:14  <PublicServer> <LoPo> ?
22:38:00  <PublicServer> <LoPo> rt98700: whats up>?
22:39:36  <PublicServer> <LoPo> lol
22:42:30  <PublicServer> <Mazur> Jam at DROP.
22:43:40  <PublicServer> <rt98700> North drop?
22:43:42  <PublicServer> <LoPo> yeah i crashed again and then the rating dropes to 0%
22:43:48  <PublicServer> <Mazur> South.
22:45:02  <PublicServer> <Mazur> Ok, enough trains been loaded and away so delivery to the southernmost platforms can go on again.
22:45:24  <PublicServer> <Mazur> BUt not quite.
22:45:24  <PublicServer> <LoPo> it will soon be over
22:45:56  <PublicServer> <rt98700> We should dive better these two stations...
22:46:08  <PublicServer> <rt98700> dive = divide
22:46:23  <V453000> LoPo: by timed release you mean accelerated join?
22:46:27  <V453000> there is no timer is tehre
22:46:28  <V453000> there
22:46:41  <LoPo> uhmm
22:46:42  <LoPo> yeah
22:46:53  <PublicServer> <Mazur> The goods trains are blocking delivery, so an overflow of even earlier splts would help.
22:46:55  <LoPo> well timed to the dummy count
22:47:11  <PublicServer> <Mazur> s/of/or/
22:47:14  <V453000> that isnt timer/timed I think
22:47:34  <PublicServer> <LoPo> i think it is :P
22:47:45  <V453000> better call it accelerated join, you already describe that it applies only in moments when counting is right
22:47:54  <PublicServer> <LoPo> yeah oky
22:48:11  <V453000> accelerated join is clear, timed join is pzg13
22:48:12  <PublicServer> *** Mazur has left the game (connection lost)
22:48:20  <V453000> there was a timer, and an accelerated join
22:48:39  <PublicServer> <LoPo> yes, but in pzg13 it was also accelerate join
22:48:45  <PublicServer> <LoPo> so...
22:49:03  <PublicServer> <LoPo> but ill fix it :)
22:49:08  <V453000> you could call "timed join" anything, overflow with some logic "timed" to release in the right times when platforms are free for example
22:49:09  <PublicServer> <LoPo> thx for the feedback
22:49:14  <V453000> sure
22:54:11  <V453000> I like the article, it describes what it does and why very well. The only thing I would suggest is to add something about the very concept - why that concept is necessary, why the dummy trains are necessary, why do we build that instead of the classic srnw.
22:54:37  <PublicServer> <LoPo> :)
22:54:49  <PublicServer> <LoPo> yeah i know what you mean
22:55:25  <V453000> currently it is an article describing the design, which is great. I am just missing explanations why to use the concept
22:55:34  <PublicServer> <LoPo> yeah
22:55:44  <PublicServer> <LoPo> godpoint
22:55:50  <PublicServer> <LoPo> good* point
22:56:19  <V453000> otherwise, it just needs some nicer formatting in places, and when you have it done I will help you with some english mistakes I have spotted
22:56:44  <V453000> like, when starting the exit section I would put there a big header EXITS BELOW, BITCHES
22:56:46  <PublicServer> <LoPo> aw this is just the first crude version
22:56:57  <V453000> perhaps not exactly that way but you get what I mean :P
22:57:05  <PublicServer> <LoPo> ;p
22:57:12  <V453000> the --- line is nice, but not enough :)
22:57:51  <PublicServer> <LoPo> ye
22:58:18  <V453000> regarding images, I usually use shadowbox album for each article, but that comes down to preferrence
22:58:47  <V453000> shadowbox is great as you open the image, close the shadowbox, and return to reading just where you stopped
22:59:11  <V453000> but when you are linked to image directly, you have to press back and find where you stopped reading
22:59:23  <V453000> oh well, and albums are nice :D
22:59:41  <V453000> just look at my articles in HTML view and copy the code
22:59:43  <LoPo> ah
22:59:49  <LoPo> yeah that is cool :)
23:00:03  <LoPo> ill use shadowbox then
23:00:27  <V453000> as you want .. it is some extra work, but I think it makes it better readable
23:00:45  <LoPo> indeed
23:00:56  <V453000> all in all, good effort, thank you
23:00:57  <LoPo> ill look into that
23:01:05  <LoPo> :)
23:01:06  <LoPo> thx man
23:01:20  <V453000> I might also release ABR12 tomorrow :P
23:01:27  <PublicServer> <LoPo> omg!
23:01:34  <PublicServer> <LoPo> about?
23:01:42  <V453000> overflows III
23:01:46  <PublicServer> <LoPo> cyclotrons? :P
23:02:00  <V453000> yeah and roundabouts and stuff
23:02:41  <LoPo> overflows
23:02:44  <LoPo> hmmm
23:02:46  <LoPo> cool :)
23:02:49  <V453000> I have one more article half-written, but I want to have overflows as 04, 08 and 12 :D
23:02:51  <LoPo> looking forward to it
23:03:21  <LoPo> i was thinking about an SRNW review
23:03:40  <rb98700> I have a save game with some cyclotrons at ottd forum...
23:03:40  <V453000> that is a big task :)
23:04:07  <LoPo> with allot examples about stations, "hubs", orders etc...
23:04:26  <LoPo> pro's and con's of SRNW
23:04:29  <LoPo> stuff like that
23:04:33  <rb98700> And thank you V, for invite-me to came here. :)
23:04:48  <LoPo> maybe i should splitt it
23:04:54  <V453000> I think stations are simple, and mostly you could just copy or write something simple from @@ABR09 . Most of SRNW article should in my opinion be about the structure of the whole SRNW design
23:04:55  <Webster> Advanced Building Revue 09: Self Regulating Stations at #openttdcoop - http://blog.openttdcoop.org/2011/01/21/advanced-building-revue-09-self-regulating-stations/
23:05:06  <V453000> every SRNW game usually is attempting to be different
23:05:12  <V453000> welcome rb98700  :)
23:05:41  <LoPo> well i have to disagree on that V
23:05:53  <LoPo> because i think there are more station designs
23:06:00  <LoPo> which are indeed different
23:06:12  <V453000> well obviously
23:06:13  <PublicServer> *** XeryusTC joined the game
23:06:25  <LoPo> layout is also something
23:06:28  <V453000> but do you really want to write a wiki about all station designs? They usually follow one of the ideas in that ABR
23:06:38  <PublicServer> *** XeryusTC has left the game (leaving)
23:06:59  <V453000> you could make an article about BBHs and write down every BBH because every BBH has different layout
23:07:11  <LoPo> lol
23:07:19  <LoPo> no that is not waht i mean
23:07:43  <LoPo> we should do a SRNW game soon ;)
23:07:52  <LoPo> then i can show some stuff
23:08:47  <V453000> well, do your "new" srnw stations have a dummy?
23:08:53  <V453000> or are they transfer?
23:09:06  <PublicServer> <LoPo> multiple dummys
23:09:13  <V453000> right
23:10:15  <V453000> still, SRNW is a system, mainly based on working somehow and if you look through all SRNW games, every works differently (except the early SRNW games which are mostly the same just like psg121). 180+ are usually different in at least some aspect
23:10:53  <V453000> SRNW station is a interchangeable component in the system, station ideas/concepts are in junctionary
23:12:31  <PublicServer> <LoPo> true, i think :P because i started around game 200orso
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23:15:06  <LoPo> pff
23:15:11  <LoPo> bye
23:15:14  <V453000> to be more specific, 121: each SL has its orders -> "locally" regulated network, ability to mix cargo easily, 180: no orders -> globally regulated network with an overflow, 199: no orders, being one big loop with overflow to next loop, 200: small srnw, but trying to make work something with conditionals (I think that was teh final solution) , 207 - central order -> making trains use SML differently
23:15:18  <V453000> :d cya
23:15:23  <rb98700> cya
23:15:27  <LoPo> :P wow what a story :D
23:16:37  <V453000> 208 is like 121 again, 214: multicargo with refit orders, 223: multicargo with one unreachable order
23:16:43  <V453000> one game one concept
23:17:12  <LoPo> oky
23:17:27  <V453000> realize it especially in planning, nobody makes a plan "ok, make SRNW like bla". Every winning srnw plan has something new, because that is what srnw is about
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23:18:12  <LoPo> but i think SRNW games with orders are completely different than the one without
23:18:23  <V453000> obviously, and both has its reasons and limits
23:18:29  <V453000> that is what to write about
23:18:32  <LoPo> ofcourse in essence you still trasnport something from a to B but...
23:18:44  <rb98700> Where can I find these games?
23:18:51  <V453000> !archive
23:18:51  <PublicServer> V453000: http://www.openttdcoop.ORG/wiki/PublicServer:Archive | http://www.openttdcoop.org/wiki/ProZone:Archive | http://www.openttdcoop.org/wiki/MemberZone:Archive
23:19:09  <rb98700> :) Thanks
23:19:22  <LoPo> yes that is what i wanted to write about,
23:19:31  <V453000> you said stations? ._.
23:19:39  <LoPo> aswell?
23:19:50  <V453000> you can use any station in any of these concepts
23:19:50  <LoPo> stations have pros and cons aswell
23:20:04  <V453000> obviously, but that is for junctionary, that has nothing to do with SRNW itself
23:20:27  <V453000> srnw is a system that needs these stations, but the system is not built on them
23:20:34  <LoPo> well but imo the juntionary is just nice pictures about random stuf...
23:20:45  <V453000> with proper description
23:20:50  <LoPo> it doesnt learn anything to whomever
23:20:59  <V453000> why not
23:21:12  <V453000> it has all concepts known
23:21:18  <LoPo> just my point of view
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23:21:19  <V453000> and usually also described what it does
23:21:34  <V453000> well obviously but a point of view tends to have a reason
23:21:39  <LoPo> also how it works?
23:21:42  <LoPo> and why?
23:21:55  <LoPo> and why not differently?
23:22:08  <LoPo> those are questions i also ask when i look at stations
23:22:22  <LoPo> and hubs
23:22:29  <LoPo> and random trakcs; P
23:22:33  <V453000> uhh
23:22:58  <V453000> well why and why not differently, that is obvious from the game and requirements of it
23:23:06  <V453000> or even from the description what it does
23:23:08  <LoPo> well, no :P
23:23:19  <LoPo> it was build because it worked
23:23:26  <LoPo> but was it the best option?
23:23:35  <V453000> that is completely aside of the point
23:23:46  <LoPo> well i think of not
23:24:07  <V453000> that it worked is obvious when it is in the junctionary. But well - what is the reason we add it to the junctionary in the first place - that it is different, it is a new concept of a station
23:24:24  <V453000> the junctionary is a list of station concepts, basically. Not just random images. That is what it was formerly
23:24:25  <LoPo> yes that is nice, i agree on that
23:26:02  <V453000> I really think writing "build this track here, not there, then add prio X tiles long, bla" step by step, is 1. way too specific and would require endless amount of examples, and 2. by being specific also becomes too much of a "tutorial". Therefore people tend to copy it, not understand what it does
23:26:12  <V453000> it is a concept, not a layout
23:26:44  <V453000> obviously, some layout "types" are in the general station section, but not specific things
23:26:44  <LoPo> true
23:27:27  <V453000> that is the same reason why I refuse to add gameplay videos, because that shows that exact one thing, how to build it step by step, done - no reasons. ... of course you can exlain it, but written it is explained a lot better
23:27:44  <LoPo> but if people would understand a layout, they will also learn the concept more quicker i think
23:28:18  <V453000> how do you understand a layout, really
23:28:46  <V453000> track A goes over track B, it can also be vice versa, and systematically it works the same way, nothing to understand I think
23:28:53  <LoPo> well all hubs are like one big puzzel with merges, splits, tunnels etc etc
23:28:58  <V453000> yes
23:29:28  <V453000> building a compact hub is a lot about layout, building a working hub is about concept
23:29:35  <LoPo> and recognizing those sections will help you to understand the layout and thus its concept
23:29:50  <V453000> yes, those sections are the concept
23:30:04  <V453000> you only need to know that the hub has all to all 2+2 merge
23:30:09  <LoPo> no, the collection of the sections is the concept
23:30:39  <V453000> collection of sections?
23:30:52  <V453000> like the BBH in total or?
23:31:13  <LoPo> uhmm yes and no
23:31:48  <V453000> well totally no, a hub is something which consists of 3 merges, 3 splits and how they are positioned is layout
23:32:26  <V453000> by knowing the basic BBH rules you know where is a merge and where is a split, and by knowing how a concept of a merge works you can identify the logic how it should work
23:32:31  <V453000> what else you need to know
23:33:00  <V453000> layout of BBHs can vary greatly
23:33:13  <V453000> concepts stay, there is like 5 merger concepts only
23:34:01  <LoPo> yes, but when you use different methods; like all to all or inner merg, imo that is a differnt concept
23:34:10  <V453000> yes
23:34:16  <V453000> because it works differently
23:34:43  <V453000> but you can build such a thing for different amount of lines, with different rules like more double bridges for choices, whatever, which completely changes layout
23:35:24  <V453000> the ingrediences for building imo are: 1. what it does, 2. restrictions what I need to do (suggested by rules)
23:35:49  <V453000> layout comes just by trying to construct it
23:36:28  <LoPo> true
23:36:54  <V453000> take a city network, there layout is a big key
23:37:06  <V453000> yet for being able to build one you just need to know how it should work
23:37:17  <V453000> to make it work better, yes, you need to make layout cleaner/better
23:37:45  <V453000> but that is the same with everything. To have faster station entrance, you need better layout for better waiting bay lenghts for agressive signalling etc
23:37:50  <V453000> but the concept stays
23:37:57  <LoPo> yes but city constructions are a bit differnt than cargo, because you need the free space for the city to grow on
23:38:15  <LoPo> ofc the concept stays the same here :P
23:38:18  <V453000> well that is a difference in map settings, that is totally off the point
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23:39:27  <LoPo> but i still think there is a differnce in understanding the concept and undersatnding layout
23:39:57  <V453000> you dont understand layout, you just learn to look at the layout to be able to ignore it and see only the concept
23:40:00  <LoPo> although simmilair concepts can be build in different layout
23:40:07  <V453000> just by getting used to the layout
23:40:31  <LoPo> yes but the rules of the concept are in the payout
23:40:35  <LoPo> payout:P
23:40:39  <LoPo> layout
23:40:39  <V453000> what
23:40:57  <LoPo> what rules?
23:41:24  <V453000> the layout is just some form of how it works, you can have a srnw dummy station with 10 synchronized dummies, you can have a srnw station with one dummy and all platforms together, and so on. Concept is dummy->train. layout is how platforms are built
23:41:24  <LoPo> length of trakcs, prios, bridging
23:41:39  <V453000> rules of the concept arent lenght of tracks, prios or bridging
23:42:07  <V453000> concept is what it does for the network, like ... Provides choices. Makes trains load stuff. Lets trains do ~whatever~.
23:42:21  <V453000> Layout is lenght of platforms, CL, and so on
23:42:21  <LoPo> same
23:42:28  <V453000> that is totally not the same
23:42:39  <LoPo> yeah that also what i meant
23:42:45  <V453000> oh right
23:43:22  <LoPo> but with the SRNW station, oky its always dummy ->train
23:43:28  <V453000> that is one of the reasons why I say that for example CL rule is stupidly overstressed - because it does help you with an easy starting point, but you still have no clue what you are building
23:43:57  <V453000> not always, sometimes it is transfer, or the separate stations, that is already a big difference
23:44:03  <LoPo> well that is why i put the "nice" sign at your hub
23:44:40  <V453000> nice can be for anything, how do you mean that
23:44:41  <LoPo> i totally agree that the CL rule is overdone
23:45:14  <LoPo> well that at some points in a network it doesnt matter wheter there is a steep curve
23:45:25  <V453000> yes yes
23:45:30  <V453000> but back to the original point please
23:47:02  <LoPo> well i was saying that if peeps understand the layout of something they will also see the concept, because they will understand the correlations quicker
23:47:03  <V453000> you have a concept of a BBH: it lets trains go where they want. Which consists of some components: merger, split. Mergers have their concepts, which is: inner join, all to all, etc. By knowing the basic concept, you can build http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/BBH
23:47:31  <V453000> I just do not see how do you understand layout
23:47:49  <V453000> if you build something the same way for a few times, yes you do get used to seeing one thing the same way
23:47:56  <V453000> but what exactly is there to understand
23:47:57  <LoPo> a tunnel can be not just a tunnel for example
23:48:05  <LoPo> it can also be a gap
23:48:07  <V453000> that a station is diagonal or that a station is not diagonal?
23:48:09  <LoPo> or w8ing bay
23:48:15  <LoPo> or just something nice
23:48:32  <V453000> well that is understanding what it does, which is a part of the concept
23:48:41  <LoPo> some peeps dont see that
23:48:46  <LoPo> they just see a tunnel
23:48:54  <LoPo> yes
23:49:00  <V453000> well it is just a tunnel :)
23:49:28  <LoPo> yeah
23:49:36  <V453000> but telling them that this tunnel is a waiting bay is just way too specific, that tunnel also doesnt have to be there and there could be waiting bay as rail
23:49:53  <V453000> if they dont see that, the problem is somewhere else
23:50:35  <V453000> if they know "ok this track gives a prio here, I need waiting bays because I need the concept to work like ABC", then they know what the tunnel is for
23:51:09  <LoPo> well, its about translating a layout to things like waitingbay, spit, etc... and thus seeing the correlation toward its concept
23:51:42  <V453000> but these are just the consists of the concept, generally speaking
23:51:58  <V453000> you dont need to know where they are, just what they do
23:52:02  <LoPo> but i think we're talking about the same thing, but just from another point
23:52:38  <V453000> well I might just take it too automatically from my point of view, but I do not think I ever saw this differently, be it when I started, or now
23:53:34  <LoPo> oky
23:53:57  <V453000> a layout can be that you built a BBH with 5 levels of tunnels, ok, but the mergers still have the same idea
23:54:34  <LoPo> aha, that is just different building style :P
23:54:43  <V453000> more or less
23:54:50  <V453000> layout. :)
23:55:07  <V453000> what else is layout really
23:55:35  <LoPo> just a stupid word
23:55:56  <V453000> well yes, but ... I understand it as the exact composition of tracks, signals, whatever else
23:56:12  <LoPo> well like in hubs
23:56:15  <V453000> like ... I have a diagonal and not diagonal station
23:56:25  <V453000> but concept-wise both of them are an unbalanced roro
23:56:36  <LoPo> you could make a cross section in the center of you hub
23:56:58  <LoPo> but you can also bridge the MLs outside of the hub
23:57:05  <V453000> yes
23:57:11  <LoPo> that would be a different layout imo
23:57:13  <V453000> which is layout, it doesnt say what the hub does
23:57:23  <LoPo> hub does hub stuff
23:57:44  <V453000> .. :)
23:58:06  <LoPo> you could ask why should i build it like that
23:58:27  <LoPo> the answere could be anything
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23:59:01  <V453000> yes, because it is just layout, it doesnt need to have a reason. It has a result, like footprint of the construction
23:59:10  <LoPo> idd
23:59:27  <V453000> it can even have a reason, like ... composition requirements/rules, CL, length of whatever
23:59:48  <V453000> but that is just throughput question

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