Log for #openttdcoop on 18th June 2013:
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00:24:08  <Mornington> night
00:24:11  <DaRabman> x
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02:02:28  <nicfer> !password
02:02:28  <PublicServer> nicfer: vainer
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02:02:50  <PublicServer> <Sylf> hi
02:02:53  <PublicServer> <nicfer> hi
02:03:13  <PublicServer> <nicfer> go?
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02:04:47  <PublicServer> <Sylf> we should move slh12 closer to slh 5
02:05:02  <PublicServer> <nicfer> yaey
02:05:12  <PublicServer> <Sylf> so that probably means the station looking the other way
02:22:56  <PublicServer> <Sylf> not long enough :/
02:23:10  <PublicServer> <nicfer> yeah, I was testing
02:23:25  <PublicServer> <nicfer> 4.5CL minimum for S-bends
02:23:27  <PublicServer> <Sylf> but that would be full CL that you need
02:23:41  <PublicServer> <Sylf> that also works
02:32:43  <PublicServer> <Sylf> you don't need to double bridge there
02:32:50  <PublicServer> <Sylf> unless it's a balancer
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02:45:19  <PublicServer> <nicfer> the top and bottom exits will have half the traffic as the ones between
02:53:24  <PublicServer> <Sylf> how about
03:19:09  <PublicServer> <nicfer> can I magic-bulldoze Three Hills Factory?
03:19:28  <PublicServer> <Sylf> yes, but before that
03:19:47  <PublicServer> <nicfer> I'll try to build around it before doing that
03:19:49  <PublicServer> <Sylf> you really don't need LL_RR line to the station of that size
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05:34:55  <PublicServer> <nicfer> I think I finished FYL
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06:53:31  <iinsomlol> !password
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13:44:44  <Vinnie> !password
13:44:44  <PublicServer> Vinnie: bladed
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13:45:05  <PublicServer> <Vinnie> hello
13:59:43  <PublicServer> <Vinnie> does not feel like playing with you afk
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14:06:10  <Mornington> !password
14:06:10  <PublicServer> Mornington: patchy
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14:09:32  <PublicServer> <Vinnie> hello
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14:09:44  <Mornington> hello
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14:10:51  <PublicServer> <Vinnie> want to play?
14:11:42  <Mornington> still learning about basic concepts
14:12:01  <PublicServer> <Vinnie> if you have questions, just ask
14:12:47  <Mornington> II've started on the tut save and when I'm done that i'll probably start playing on the pub server. Thanks for the offer though
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14:16:08  <Vinnie> uhm i looked for 5 seconds in the save and it might use some outdated merging concepts
14:19:37  <Mornington> oh
14:19:39  <Mornington> hmm
14:20:56  <Vinnie> 3.8 Terminus only on small industries :/
14:21:43  <Vinnie> also no seperation of loading and unloading trains
14:21:50  <Vinnie> in station i mean
14:25:25  <Mornington> I'm relatively new to openttd in general though and i'm still on my first world barely past year 2000, I want to learn at my own pace so I'll probably start playing properly later today
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15:02:00  <Vinnie> Mornington: here a start of a new tutorial with some more details. First trainline
15:02:28  <Vinnie> 2nd line and orders explained
15:04:34  <Mornington> thanks gtg will be on later
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15:05:38  <nicfer> !paxword
15:05:42  <nicfer> !password
15:05:42  <PublicServer> nicfer: jaguar
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15:10:52  <Anson> !password
15:10:52  <PublicServer> Anson: jaguar
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15:40:50  <PublicServer> <Brumi> hi
15:40:52  <PublicServer> <nicfer> hi
15:42:02  <PublicServer> <nicfer> ham @ Ermineskin
15:42:28  <PublicServer> <Anson> hallo
15:43:08  <PublicServer> <Anson> just detected a single bridge that causes a queue back onto a mainline ....
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15:43:55  <PublicServer> <Brumi> well this is quite the deadlock at Ermineskin
15:44:17  <PublicServer> <Brumi> now it's solved temporarily
15:45:27  <Vinnie> my mess
15:49:15  <PublicServer> <Anson> do you intend to use the unnamed SLH between ACM and SLH03 sometime ? currently it is only a dead end and a single bridge causes queues back to the ML
15:50:38  <Vinnie> !password
15:50:38  <PublicServer> Vinnie: warren
15:50:44  <PublicServer> <Brumi> I have no intention of using it
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15:55:44  <PublicServer> <Brumi> hmm I'm wondering if it is even neccessary to squeeze in another ICE station for Taber if I want to connect it
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16:00:54  <PublicServer> <nicfer> I'd like to move SLH03 a bit to the east so Flyingshot Lake can be completed
16:02:20  <PublicServer> <nicfer> but that would be after my lunch
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16:17:46  <PublicServer> <Anson> going to test something offline ... CU
16:17:52  <PublicServer> <Brumi> bye
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17:11:59  <Maraxus> !password
17:11:59  <PublicServer> Maraxus: solids
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17:12:35  <PublicServer> <Maraxus> hi
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17:57:42  <fonsinchen> !password
17:57:42  <PublicServer> fonsinchen: wheeze
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17:57:59  <PublicServer> <Brumi> hello
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17:58:09  <PublicServer> <fonso> hi
17:58:23  <PublicServer> <fonso> wow, Flyingshot has changed a lot
17:59:09  <PublicServer> <Brumi> btw fonso
17:59:16  <PublicServer> <Brumi> a little bug with the station GUI
17:59:27  <PublicServer> <Brumi> where you select the sorting criteria
17:59:41  <PublicServer> <Brumi> when you open the dropdown list
17:59:56  <PublicServer> <Brumi> the currently selected item is wrong in the dropdown
18:00:11  <PublicServer> <fonso> It's right for me.
18:00:27  <PublicServer> <Brumi> really?
18:00:30  <PublicServer> <fonso> Is that for all stations or for specific ones?
18:00:37  <PublicServer> <Brumi> may have something to do with translations
18:00:40  <PublicServer> <Brumi> for all stations
18:00:48  <PublicServer> <fonso> Ah, no, it's also wrong for me
18:00:55  <PublicServer> <fonso> and there is some reason for that.
18:01:29  <PublicServer> <Brumi> and what is the reason?
18:01:35  <PublicServer> <fonso> I'll look that up in the code. I had that problem before and decided not to fix it ...
18:05:58  <fonsinchen> It's because in principle the window is able to sort each column in a different direction. However, I didn't want to give myself the headaches of actually adding widgets for that.
18:06:23  <fonsinchen> Ah no, not true
18:06:31  <PublicServer> <Brumi> :)
18:07:56  <fonsinchen> Half true after all.
18:08:28  <fonsinchen> You could in principle sort each column not only in different directions but also by different criterias.
18:09:02  <fonsinchen> So there is no global information about the criterium being sorted for. This is part of the columns
18:09:15  <fonsinchen> And the first column is obviously always sorted by cargo
18:09:33  <PublicServer> <nicfer> I think ECO needs more platforms
18:09:36  <fonsinchen> It can be implemented, though. I should just check the second column.
18:10:20  <PublicServer> <Brumi> what is more interesting, the higlight IS dependant on the current selection
18:10:26  <PublicServer> <Brumi> it's only wrong though
18:10:41  <PublicServer> <fonso> Yes, but it only takes planned/waiting into account
18:10:48  <PublicServer> <Brumi> ah
18:12:20  <PublicServer> <Brumi> do we wait patiently until Acme builds a new house?
18:12:30  <PublicServer> <Brumi> I'd like to add a shutte to the poor town :)
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18:13:09  <fonsinchen> fund a steel mill next to it?
18:13:34  <PublicServer> <Brumi> why a steel mill?
18:13:42  <fonsinchen> then you get pax acceptance
18:13:44  <PublicServer> <Brumi> I know it accepts pax
18:14:10  <Sylf> good luck with acme....
18:14:21  <PublicServer> <Brumi> ok lol
18:14:43  <PublicServer> <Brumi> I forgot that a town can be that small that it doesn't even accept pax
18:14:55  <PublicServer> <Brumi> could move the HQ into Acme though :D
18:15:17  <PublicServer> <nicfer> or make a station walk to Tsuu T'ina
18:15:28  <Sylf> once a town gets the growth rate of 1/32k, that town is pretty much doomed
18:15:30  <PublicServer> <nicfer> with station signs in Acme
18:15:56  <PublicServer> <Brumi> well I'll try to move the hq into Acme temporarily :D
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18:16:50  <Sylf> I tried to grow Acme earlier in this game when the town was bigger, and tried for about 30 years
18:17:00  <Sylf> and it didnt work
18:17:03  <Sylf> fyi.
18:17:10  <PublicServer> <Brumi> :(
18:17:24  <PublicServer> <Brumi> okay then
18:17:44  <Sylf> blame me and my broken game script and my laziness to fix it
18:18:08  <PublicServer> <Brumi> you have a gamescript in this game?
18:18:40  <Sylf> yeah.
18:19:04  <PublicServer> <Brumi> that's why the local authority never rejects?
18:19:38  <Sylf> no, that's a part of magic bulldozer cheat
18:20:22  <Sylf> if you build a station in a town and never provide any service, they'll still get pissed
18:21:24  <PublicServer> <Brumi> whoa
18:21:38  <PublicServer> <Brumi> If I save and load up the game in singleplayer
18:21:49  <PublicServer> <Brumi> all dirt roads become concrete roads
18:22:40  <Sylf> yeah, that's north american roads feature
18:23:06  <PublicServer> <Brumi> okay but why are there dirt roads in 2166
18:23:40  <Sylf> it happens in real life too.  reboot america, and boom, we get blacktop roads overnight
18:23:58  <PublicServer> <Brumi> :D
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18:24:15  <Sylf> without reboots, we're forever stuck with dirt roads
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18:34:51  <Vinnie_nl> !password
18:34:51  <PublicServer> Vinnie_nl: slewed
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18:35:08  <PublicServer> <Brumi> hello
18:35:11  <PublicServer> <Vinnie> hello
18:35:29  <PublicServer> <fonso> hi
18:37:19  <PublicServer> <Vinnie> does anyone wanna double SLH 05?
18:38:10  <PublicServer> <Brumi> I guess no
18:38:21  <PublicServer> <Vinnie> i offered the job, now its mine
18:38:56  <PublicServer> <Brumi> extending junctions is still something I have to learn
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18:45:12  <PublicServer> <fonso> I think you could save some traffic on the S-Bahn lines by making more circular or grid-like systems
18:45:29  <Anson> !password
18:45:29  <PublicServer> Anson: wavier
18:45:47  <PublicServer> <fonso> As it is now e.g. in Standard anyone going from a stop on one line to a stop on a different line has to go via the ICE station
18:45:48  <PublicServer> *** Anson joined the game
18:48:37  <PublicServer> <Vinnie> that could be fixed by changing the distanse setting
18:48:45  <PublicServer> <Vinnie> so all traffic wants to go far
18:51:28  <PublicServer> <Anson> "effect on distance" is already set to 0% .... should give the same amoubnt of traffic to all stations, independent of distance !?
18:51:37  <fonsinchen> Yes
18:51:55  <fonsinchen> You can't priorize far stations over near ones. Only the other way around
18:52:08  <fonsinchen> The system could be extended, though.
18:52:45  <PublicServer> <fonso> However one end of MIN to other end of MIN is pretty far
18:52:51  <PublicServer> <Anson> but i think there is another problem with the pathes ... when i tested somethinmg, it appeared to me that the graph is only done for real orders, and not for implicit orders
18:53:17  <PublicServer> <fonso> It is done for implicit ones, too.
18:53:33  <PublicServer> <fonso> However, weird things will happen if the implicit orders change all the time
18:54:10  <fonsinchen> SRNW do something like that if I understand that right.
18:54:14  <PublicServer> <Anson> and at least for trains with no orders, pax are left behind and fill the main station
18:54:35  <fonsinchen> If you don't have any orders you don't get implicit ones, either, do you?
18:54:58  <fonsinchen> So the cargodist algorithm can't predict where you're going.
18:55:00  <PublicServer> <Anson> after i added orders for all stations to such an orderless train, it took 1 or 2 months until 7k pax from the main station were transported
18:55:03  <PublicServer> <Vinnie> SRNW in its pure form will not have a single order. SO it will not work with Cargo dist. Because no link can be formed
18:55:31  <fonsinchen> Actually the links are formed and that may be the bug.
18:55:46  <PublicServer> <Vinnie> we have no SRNW here
18:55:51  <fonsinchen> If a vehicle without orders arrives somewhere it should not make a link.
18:57:11  <PublicServer> <fonso> you have some working implicit orders, though
18:57:25  <PublicServer> <fonso> see, again, Standard.
18:57:32  <scshunt> !password
18:57:32  <PublicServer> scshunt: wavier
18:57:33  <PublicServer> <Vinnie> that is true but that can't be called SRNW
18:57:53  <PublicServer> *** scshunt joined the game
18:58:06  <PublicServer> <Vinnie> self regulated network sends trains where they are needed
18:58:13  <PublicServer> <fonso> Well, we can try to figure that out together if you build a SRNW somewhere.
18:58:19  <PublicServer> <Vinnie> a single loop with stations in serie is not SRNW
18:58:55  <PublicServer> <Vinnie> Lubicon Lake:  Blue Quill
18:59:29  <PublicServer> <fonso> OK, I'm watching
19:00:31  <PublicServer> <Vinnie> this is dummy
19:00:41  <PublicServer> <scshunt> dummy?
19:00:47  <PublicServer> <scshunt> also what is this?
19:01:02  <PublicServer> <fonso> This should work
19:01:04  <PublicServer> <Vinnie> the train is called a dummy
19:01:10  <PublicServer> <fonso> the trains doing the same all the time
19:01:12  <PublicServer> <scshunt> where?
19:01:22  <PublicServer> <fonso> ah it goes on
19:01:36  <PublicServer> <Anson> btw: it would be nice to have some option in the station's display to easily expand all "+" of the first level and second level (and also close them again)
19:02:34  <PublicServer> <fonso> Yes, there are a lot of nice to haves for the station GUI but I think someone who can design UIs should draw a picture before I do any work there.
19:03:57  <PublicServer> *** scshunt has left the game (leaving)
19:06:36  <PublicServer> <fonso> well, the "no orders" thing does not work because those trains don't get implicit orders
19:06:46  <PublicServer> <fonso> can't you add a waypoint order somewhere?
19:07:02  <PublicServer> <Vinnie> you can add unload ad ICE
19:07:08  <PublicServer> <Vinnie> add*
19:07:10  <PublicServer> <fonso> that should do
19:07:20  <PublicServer> <Vinnie> but no non-stop
19:07:30  <PublicServer> <fonso> also right now there is no real incentive for cargodist to send things to the ICE station
19:07:42  <PublicServer> <fonso> you should connect that to some passenger sink
19:08:08  <PublicServer> <fonso> another problem is that in symmetric mode the algorithm will want to send ppl back
19:08:24  <PublicServer> <fonso> it can't as the feeder stations are pickup only
19:08:38  <nicfer1> !password
19:08:38  <PublicServer> nicfer1: siring
19:08:56  <PublicServer> *** nicfer joined the game
19:09:40  <PublicServer> <Vinnie> A simple station walk would suffice as passenger sink?
19:10:02  <PublicServer> <fonso> It should be something cargodist will want to send passengers to
19:10:08  <PublicServer> <fonso> so, yes
19:10:34  <PublicServer> <fonso> you can also just fund a steel mill next to it
19:11:06  <PublicServer> <Vinnie> but this will not work
19:11:12  <PublicServer> <Vinnie> no way to send passengers back
19:11:34  <PublicServer> <fonso> I think it will still send out some minimum amount, even if it can't send anything back
19:11:44  <PublicServer> <fonso> alternately you could switch to asymmetric
19:12:15  <PublicServer> <fonso> try with the steel mill or the station walk
19:12:22  <PublicServer> <Vinnie> it has station walk
19:12:32  <PublicServer> <fonso> I see
19:14:09  <PublicServer> <Vinnie> but it doesn't matter that this doesn't work flawless
19:14:23  <PublicServer> <fonso> Actually like this it should work
19:14:33  <PublicServer> <fonso> At least in some limited way
19:15:20  <PublicServer> <Vinnie> that isnt right
19:15:30  <PublicServer> <fonso> what is wrong?
19:15:40  <PublicServer> <Vinnie> it let trough 2 trains
19:15:54  <PublicServer> <fonso> Well, that is not related to cargodist
19:16:13  <PublicServer> <Vinnie> i know it was my bad
19:16:46  <PublicServer> <fonso> see, train 630 has picked up the pax
19:18:40  <PublicServer> <Vinnie> interesting
19:19:01  <PublicServer> <Vinnie> does orientation matter for PBS signals in what order trains are released?
19:19:18  <PublicServer> <fonso> No idea
19:19:44  <PublicServer> <fonso> The bug seems to be that trains without orders can create links but won't take cargo for those same links
19:20:03  <PublicServer> <fonso> The easy fix is not letting them create the links in the first place.
19:20:18  <PublicServer> <Vinnie> bug? " missing feature " :D
19:20:40  <PublicServer> <fonso> Well, it's hard to make implicit orders for trains without explicit orders
19:21:03  <PublicServer> <fonso> Because you don't know when they "loop around"
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19:21:29  <PublicServer> <Brumi> gotta go, see you next time
19:21:31  <PublicServer> <Anson> another parameter ? "create links/cargo for implicit orders: yes/no" ?
19:21:37  <PublicServer> *** Brumi has left the game (leaving)
19:21:45  <PublicServer> <fonso> no, that should always be done
19:21:59  <PublicServer> <fonso> but vehicles without explicit orders shouldn't create links
19:22:38  <PublicServer> <fonso> Then all cargo at those SRNW stations would be "via any station" and the system would work
19:22:52  <PublicServer> <fonso> sort of
19:23:46  <PublicServer> <Vinnie> so openttdcoop created some wierd train network based on two-way signal behaviour.
19:23:52  <PublicServer> <Vinnie> And only it is used here
19:24:10  <PublicServer> <Vinnie> and every new feature should be able to handle this system?
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19:24:30  <PublicServer> <fonso> It's a matter of consistency
19:24:48  <PublicServer> <fonso> If a train creates a link it should be able to transport cargo along that link
19:25:26  <PublicServer> <fonso> How do you normally prevent passengers from accumulating at the SRNW transfer stations?
19:25:44  <PublicServer> <fonso> Pretty sure they will generate their own passengers...
19:25:51  <PublicServer> <Vinnie> well asume we do this design of station mostly for cargo
19:26:01  <PublicServer> <Vinnie> then just place it out of reach
19:26:15  <PublicServer> <Vinnie> for passengers the footprint of a station would be to large
19:26:18  <PublicServer> <fonso> I see
19:26:44  <PublicServer> <Vinnie> But i saw one design that used a central clock to open every station every x days
19:32:56  <PublicServer> *** Vinnie has joined spectators
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19:37:47  <fonsinchen> bye
19:38:50  <Vinnie_nl> cya
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19:45:28  <ZxBiohazardZx> !players
19:45:30  <PublicServer> ZxBiohazardZx: Client 352 (Orange) is Sylf, in company 1 (Sharkey & Co.)
19:45:30  <PublicServer> ZxBiohazardZx: Client 387 is Anson, a spectator
19:46:14  <ZxBiohazardZx> !password
19:46:14  <PublicServer> ZxBiohazardZx: shanty
19:46:22  <PublicServer> *** Game still paused (number of players)
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19:46:24  <PublicServer> <ZxBiohazardZx> sup sup
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20:00:46  <nicfer> !password
20:00:46  <PublicServer> nicfer: blared
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20:01:08  <PublicServer> <nicfer> ho
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20:02:48  <DaRabman> !password
20:02:48  <PublicServer> DaRabman: blared
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20:45:22  <PublicServer> <ZxBiohazardZx> ugh darn trains have more loadstages or just jam on purpose
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21:10:18  <PublicServer> <ZxBiohazardZx> not to be mean but wouldnt it be easier to do the monorail  via the waterside
21:10:24  <PublicServer> <ZxBiohazardZx> so you have more room for SLH in there?
21:12:03  <PublicServer> <DaRabman> Sure, my thinking was that it would be easier than trashing a lot of the city and coast line
21:13:00  <PublicServer> <ZxBiohazardZx> city will regrow :P
21:13:14  <PublicServer> <ZxBiohazardZx> slh with CL5 is harder :P
21:13:25  <PublicServer> <DaRabman> But I
21:13:32  <PublicServer> <DaRabman> wups
21:13:46  <PublicServer> <ZxBiohazardZx> not impossible like this though
21:13:48  <PublicServer> <ZxBiohazardZx> just tight
21:14:02  <PublicServer> <ZxBiohazardZx> darn standard is now bigger then mini:(
21:14:04  <PublicServer> <ZxBiohazardZx> :P
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